Have we really become the puppet of the American government? I know we always have been, but for goodness sake doesn't this put the tin lid on it?

How will the Ecuadorians react? Will they start shooting British Tourists? or will they simply burn down the British Embassy in Ecuador?

Is this all worth it to keep the Americans happy? Will I be hunted down by the CIA for positng this?



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The only excuse we have for making music in the first place is to make it differently..vis-a-vis our own difference (Glenn Gould)

Julian Assange is wanted in Sweden to answer charges of sexual assault. What has that got to do with America? My concern is for his victims, if they be that.

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Strictly project and just for fun

+1. Assange strikes me as a man clinging to any straw to avoid facing significant charges in Sweden, whatever the effect that has on anyone else (including his friends who now face some hefty bail fees). Anyone who can view Sweden as a patsy of the US or as having a corrupt justice system has a seriously powerful reality distortion field in operation.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

+1. Assange is no counter-culture hero. He is a dirty little despot who is playing his last card to avoid legitimate charges of rape in one of the most open democracies in Europe with one of the fairest legal systems in the world.

Reg

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Google less; read more!

Quote Frisonic:

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Julian Assange is wanted in Sweden to answer charges of sexual assault. What has that got to do with America? My concern is for his victims, if they be that.

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These charges are most likely (but not necessarily) false. I don't quite understand the mechanisms, but if he goes to sweden to answer said charges, he'll almost certainly end up getting "rendered" to the US and never heard of again.

( the US doesn't like free speech, when it's awkward for them )

For all we know, the sex charges in sweden relate to allegations made by "honey trap" CIA agents, in a specific US plot to achieve the above outcome.

Quote chris...:

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Quote Frisonic:

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Julian Assange is wanted in Sweden to answer charges of sexual assault. What has that got to do with America? My concern is for his victims, if they be that.

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These charges are most likely (but not necessarily) false. I don't quite understand the mechanisms, but if he goes to sweden to answer said charges, he'll almost certainly end up getting "rendered" to the US and never heard of again.

( the US doesn't like free speech, when it's awkward for them )

For all we know, the sex charges in sweden relate to allegations made by "honey trap" CIA agents, in a specific US plot to achieve the above outcome.

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Isn't it obvious, Hitler did it.

Reg

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Google less; read more!

And for all we know the charges are quite genuine and the idea of CIA involvement merely a paranoid fantasy. I don't know for certain which is true. Do you?

The way to determine that is in a court of justice. That's what they're for.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

He isn't actually accused of rape. The charge is something Swedish that translates along the lines of 'sex by surprise.'

In one of the 'cases' the prosecution is on the basis that he once shagged his girlfriend, starting while she was still asleep and not expecting it, and that the sex was thus non-consensual. It is undisputed that this was in the course of a relationship that already had consensual sex in it. Mrs Sam would think there was something amiss in our relationship if she didn't get similar surprises from time to time, so we won't be doing our second honeymoon in Sweden.

The other case is about whether he lied about wearing a condom during otherwise consensual sex: if this were true it would be ungentlemanly behaviour; and it would present a theoretical risk to his girlfriend if he didn't know his HIV status. However, I don't think many countries would define this as rape.

What surprises me (do you see what I did there ?) about this whole thing is that neither allegation can really be proven beyond reasonable doubt, can it ? Unless he was caught on a surveillance system, which seems unlikely. So why is he getting extradited to face charges that can't be supported ? At the risk of appearing to be a conspiracy theorist, I think it is at least possible that the motivation comes from that big country to the West that has all those guns, all that money, and a widespread and growing habit of shooting, blowing up and torturing foreigners on the basis of hubris or suspicion and with a complete disregard for international law. After Wikileaks, the least likely next thing was that Assange would be left alone to live his life in peace.

While we are on the subject .... does this handkerchief smell of chloroform to you ?

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

Well on the puzzling features front, you'd think have thought the US would have applied for his extradition from this country instead of chasing around setting up "honey pots" in Sweden. But they never have. Odd, that. You don't think ... nah, it couldn't possibly be true that the US have no real interest in the guy, could it?

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Quote Frisonic:

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Julian Assange is wanted in Sweden to answer charges of sexual assault. What has that got to do with America? My concern is for his victims, if they be that.

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Are you blind? It has everything to do with the US!

Well, whatever else, the affair does show how low the US' reputation has sunk over the last few years.

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

Quote ConcertinaChap:

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Well on the puzzling features front, you'd think have thought the US would have applied for his extradition from this country instead of chasing around setting up "honey pots" in Sweden. But they never have. Odd, that. You don't think ... nah, it couldn't possibly be true that the US have no real interest in the guy, could it?

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If that were the case, he would simply go to Sweden, and go thru the motions of the unprovable allegations being not proven in court. Job done.

Quote chris...:

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If that were the case, he would simply go to Sweden, and go thru the motions of the unprovable allegations being not proven in court. Job done.

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Exactly so. So the next most likely possibility is that he is aware the allegations are founded in fact and is wriggling like a worm on a hook trying to avoid facing up to them. I stress I do not know this, I have no idea of the truth or otherwise of the allegations and no way of finding out if I were interested. As I said, that is what we have courts of justice for and those in Sweden are among the best in the world.

Of course, it might be that the CIA are orchestrating a ludicrously complex plot to get him to the US and there hang him by the neck until he is dead. Personally this seems rather less likely.

Thru is spelt T H R O U G H, by the way.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Quote ConcertinaChap:

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the next most likely possibility is that he is aware the allegations are founded in fact and is wriggling like a worm on a hook trying to avoid facing up to them.

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Seems unlikely - the allegations are unprovable (see Sam's first post), so he would seem to have no reason not to face up to them...

Quote:

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Thru is spelt T H R O U G H, by the way.

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Yep, and "thru" is a commonly used abbreviation

Quote Frisonic:

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Julian Assange is wanted in Sweden to answer charges of sexual assault. What has that got to do with America? My concern is for his victims, if they be that.

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The charge is that he was having consensual sex, but when they were shagging the condom broke, and the woman claims he noticed but didn't stop

You really think that is worth trashing the Vienna Convention for? I think not.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote ConcertinaChap:

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Well on the puzzling features front, you'd think have thought the US would have applied for his extradition from this country instead of chasing around setting up "honey pots" in Sweden. But they never have. Odd, that. You don't think ... nah, it couldn't possibly be true that the US have no real interest in the guy, could it?

CC

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http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE87E0T520120815?irpc=932

"Why would the U.S. not just request his extradition from here where it's pretty easy? It's not easier from Sweden," said Niblock.

The British government has said it was determined to fulfill its legal obligation to extradite Assange to Sweden. Britain's Supreme Court has ruled the Swedish arrest warrant was valid and Assange should be sent to Stockholm.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote ConcertinaChap:

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Of course, it might be that the CIA are orchestrating a ludicrously complex plot to get him to the US and there hang him by the neck until he is dead. Personally this seems rather less likely.

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Next thing you'll be suggesting they do secret unofficial things, invading places and killing people like the baddies do.

I might bet JA's life on it but I wouldn't like to bet my own. A couple of years ago the idea of Guantanamo Bay being run by the greatest liberal democracy, a model of freedom and justice for the world was laughable.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote Frisonic:

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Julian Assange is wanted in Sweden to answer charges of sexual assault. What has that got to do with America? My concern is for his victims, if they be that.

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Dunno but the Americans feel really strongly about it for some reason.

http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINDEE87D0GX20120814?irpc=932

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

What we see in Julian Assange is someone who has carefully created a cult out of himself by revealing other people's secrets. The cult has now failed, save for a few hysterical dreamers who like to believe in conspiracy theories. But then cults do need to feed off people who need something to cling to. Almost all his former friends and supporters, certainly the ones with any influence have either lost patience with him or deserted him on the grounds that having seen him operate close up and personal, they have wanted out. Even his former lawyers are suing him (that is to say his second legal team - the pro bono ones withdrew as soon as they decently could, before the appeal at least and after they'd had a very good look at all the evidence and the man). This comes as no surprise. Comments I have read in the media from women who had previously been involved in Wikileaks point to a psycho pathology that might easily be capable of sexual assault. In short, he frightened them. Yet for someone who believes so passionately about uncovering secrets Assange is remarkably reluctant to have his own actions scrutinised.

His claim that the assault charges are manufactured has comprehensively failed the light test. Anybody who seriously believes Sweden would trump up these charges at the behest of the USA is manifestly deluded. It is insulting to Sweden, insulting to the the USA and insulting to the UK. As a dismissal of the alleged crime it is so insulting and offensive to the alleged victims as to be beyond redemption. What on earth the Ecuadorians think they are getting themselves into I have no idea but they must know their actions are doing serious harm to their international reputation.

The forthcoming trial in Sweden is not about Julian Assange. It is about finding justice and hopefully closure for his victims (if that be what they are). The longer the affair drags out the greater their distress and trauma. And the harder for them to be able to come to terms with what was done to them and move on. Its a process I know something about at first hand and my sympathy in this matter remains exclusively with them.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote Frisonic:

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Julian Assange is wanted in Sweden to answer charges of sexual assault. What has that got to do with America? My concern is for his victims, if they be that.

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Dunno but the Americans feel really strongly about it for some reason.

http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/idINDEE87D0GX20120814?irpc=932

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The USA's position regarding Ecuador is a separate matter and It won't just be the USA that estrange Ecuador over their behavior. Any civilized country is likely to. Think of it like this: Ecuador, that well known trail blazer of law and justice, is saying publicly that it doesn't have faith in the legal systems of Sweden, the United Kingdom or the USA. You really can't expect to do that with impunity. Many will think twice before feeling they can do business with a country that behaves like that. How do you suppose ordinary Ecuadorians feel, knowing that their government is prepared to compromise their trade opportunities for the sake of a cheap political stunt? I have yet to see a report...

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Strictly project and just for fun

As you wish. I just prefer to invoke conspiracy theories when it seems likely there's a conspiracy and other explanations seem improbable.

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Quote Frisonic:

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The USA's position regarding Ecuador is a separate matter and It won't just be the USA that estrange Ecuador over their behavior. Any civilized country is likely to.

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But somehow the US could find away to do business with Ecuador until now?

America has always put great store by it's credentials regarding individual and collective freedom. For many people the high octane talk of Messrs Bush, Rumsfeld et al in recent years has put a great big question mark on all of that. The prospect of the Republicans getting back into govt does nothing to reassure concerned parties. They seem to have replaced hawks with clowns.

I think you misunderestimate (sic) how many people around the world are wary of American justice.

But we'll see.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Just been watching the Ecuadorian statement and offer of asylum, which was high octane BS from start to finish. As far as I'm concerned they have willfully abused their diplomatic privilege. The legal means have been found to go in there and scoop him up. Time to get on with it. Preferably this afternoon.

BTW the USA will always engage in free trade with any other nation unless it has a very good reason not to. And generally it is not looking for reasons. Free trade is its true religion.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Scoop him up, is that a legal term?.

Bear in mind no court has examined any evidence in this country. Ask yourself these questions:

Why are the UK so interested in an alleged sex crime case of very dubious provenance in a foreign country?
Why are the US, etc.
Why would the UK threaten to overstep diplomatic boundaries in this case when they didn't to it in the case of Libya re. wpc Yvonne Fletcher?

Why would Ecuador risk stirring a wasp nest in the US to protect an Australian?

It's not really about JA's Swedish girlfriend, is it?

For the record I think he's an irresponsible arrogant dickhead but that could be any of us.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

The moral of the story is, next time you're drinking in a bar in Sweden with a couple of gorgeous blondes who invite themselves back to your room with a bottle of fizz, decline their kind offer and go and have a curry, alone, and then go back to your room and relieve yourself manually.

Quote chris...:

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Quote ConcertinaChap:

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Thru is spelt T H R O U G H, by the way.

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Yep, and "thru" is a commonly used abbreviation

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Not in my house, it's not.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote ow:

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The moral of the story is, next time you're drinking in a bar in Sweden with a couple of gorgeous blondes who invite themselves back to your room with a bottle of fizz, decline their kind offer and go and have a curry, alone, and then go back to your room and relieve yourself manually.

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As if.

Anyway that's not the scenario.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Why are the UK so interested in an alleged sex crime case of very dubious provenance in a foreign country?
Why are the US, etc.
Why would the UK threaten to overstep diplomatic boundaries in this case when they didn't to it in the case of Libya re. wpc Yvonne Fletcher?

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1) Because we have a fully reciprocal extradition treaty with Sweden, as we do all EU member states.

2) The US have been very hands off regarding the charges in Sweden. They have been vocal about having their computers hacked into and their reputation defamed on a 'nod and a wink' by Assange and his supporters, which now formally includes Ecuador. I don't blame them on either count.

3) I would say it is Ecuador who have overstepped diplomatic boundaries but your question is fair. Possibly because Ecuador is not rich in mineral wealth whereas Libya is? Possibly because the legal mechanism to 'scoop him up' (no it is not a legal term!) wasn't known about back then? Possibly because our coalition and chancery in 2012 are less inclined to be played for a patsy then their predecessors?

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

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Possibly because our coalition and chancery in 2012 are less inclined to be played for a patsy then their predecessors?

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Sorry, I'll be a while before I can answer this, I've got to go and change my trousers.

Check your dates.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote Frisonic:

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What we see in Julian Assange is someone who has carefully created a cult out of himself by revealing other people's secrets. .

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You make it sound like it was an episode of Terry & June, and the 'secrets' were just some embarrasing detail about what someone had bought the other for a surprise christmas present, revealed with embarrassing and hilarious consequences.

They are rather more dangerous secrets than that. About rather evil things governments and their militaries get up to. Which it would behove the rest of us to know about.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

I think the trap is closing around him and he is now likely knackered. I wouldn't like to be his testicles.

He has been granted asylum. That means he ought to be able to live out the rest of his years peacefully on an Ecuadorean llama farm.

The worrying thing is that the same people who brought you Guantanamo Bay and secret CIA rendition flights to torture prisons are about to change the rules of the game, meaning that if ever you're caught short in Burma or the United Arab Emirates and want to seek sanctuary in the Swiss embassy, you won't be able to, as everyone will just start breaking the Vienna Convention left right and centre for lulz. This is a Bad Thing.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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He has been granted asylum. That means he ought to be able to live out the rest of his years peacefully on an Ecuadorean llama farm.

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Well according to the BBC article, he'll have to remain in the Embassy, because he'll get pinched if he tries to leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19281492

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote shufflebeat:

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Why would the UK threaten to overstep diplomatic boundaries in this case when they didn't to it in the case of Libya re. wpc Yvonne Fletcher?

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The law that they would "use" (Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987) was passed as a result of the WPC Yvonne Fletcher shooting in 1984.

Quote Frisonic:

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His claim that the assault charges are manufactured has comprehensively failed the light test.

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Why did the original procecutor decide to reduce the charges to the very bare minimum then, if the evidence was so compelling? Odd that she was only then superceeded by her boss, the director of procescution after other govererments kicked up a fuss?

That would be like Theresa May getting involved in a case at the American gov's request surely?...

Quote Frisonic:

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Anybody who seriously believes Sweden would trump up these charges at the behest of the USA is manifestly deluded. It is insulting to Sweden, insulting to the the USA and insulting to the UK.

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Richard O Dwyer would probably be laughing rather loudly at that statement... if he had net access.

Quote shufflebeat:

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For the record I think he's an irresponsible arrogant dickhead but that could be any of us.

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Q.F.T.


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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote thenaturallevel:

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Quote shufflebeat:

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Why would the UK threaten to overstep diplomatic boundaries in this case when they didn't to it in the case of Libya re. wpc Yvonne Fletcher?

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The law that they would "use" (Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987) was passed as a result of the WPC Yvonne Fletcher shooting in 1984.

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Thank you.

For cases like this? I think not.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Quote thenaturallevel:

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Quote shufflebeat:

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Why would the UK threaten to overstep diplomatic boundaries in this case when they didn't to it in the case of Libya re. wpc Yvonne Fletcher?

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The law that they would "use" (Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987) was passed as a result of the WPC Yvonne Fletcher shooting in 1984.

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Thank you.

For cases like this? I think not.

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I can't see it as anything other than an idol threat. It would be totally unprecedented and heavy handed in the extreme.

Quote thenaturallevel:

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Quote shufflebeat:

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Why would the UK threaten to overstep diplomatic boundaries in this case when they didn't to it in the case of Libya re. wpc Yvonne Fletcher?

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The law that they would "use" (Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987) was passed as a result of the WPC Yvonne Fletcher shooting in 1984.

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That's right. I picked it up too (on the wires whist out and about just now). This law has nothing to do with the USA. Its homespun and evolved out of our own negative experiences of embassies abusing their diplomatic privileges in London.

I was waiting for someone to mention Richard O'Dwyer! Totally different case. Also what is at issue here is our extradition treaty with other EU member states, which is sound. Not our extradition treaty with the USA which I agree is loaded in favor of the USA and needs revisiting.

Once Assange has faced his trial in Sweden (and he will) we will know if he is guilty of the sexual assault charges or not. He will either be sentenced, whatever that amounts to, or set free (I don't hold out much hope for his being granted bail during the trial)! Once he has settled his legal business in Sweden we may or may not see what their extradition treaty with the USA is made of.

Personally I don't really care if he gets tried for his wikileaks activities or not. The organisation is still operating and seems to be doing so on a more responsible basis of late. Its a bit of a red herring really. 99.9% of what they publish is of no possible interest to anyone and the tiny little bit that certain people would prefer was not public doesn't amount to anything particularly embarrassing for anyone. If someone got hold of my personal diary or other data by nefarious means, and published it without my consent or approval I'd have a very low opinion of them too.

I do care that allegations of sexual assault are rigorously investigated and brought to trial if that be deemed appropriate. Apparently Ecuador wants the world to believe rapists can enjoy their sport there with impunity. At least that's the loud and clear message they have just sent out. I'm waiting to see what ex pat Ecuadorians living in London and elsewhere have to say about it, if anything. I did know one but have lost touch over the years. Might try and track him down.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Frisonic:

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Ecuador wants the world to believe rapists can enjoy their sport there with impunity.

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I think we can do better than that.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

The plot thickens:

Tories misinterpreted the law - who'dathunkit!

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".