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caveman82



Joined: 30/01/06
Posts: 1297
Riots In London
      #932877 - 07/08/11 04:28 PM
Anyone seen the damage first hand?

It seems a rather odd situation from the exterior...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14436529

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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #932879 - 07/08/11 05:08 PM
right up the road from me. it has spread to Wood Green now. 7 year old girls running out of Curries with 5 X-Box 360s...

keep an eye on Gumtree in the next few days...

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ken long]
      #932883 - 07/08/11 05:59 PM
Quote ken long:

right up the road from me. it has spread to Wood Green now. 7 year old girls running out of Curries with 5 X-Box 360s...

keep an eye on Gumtree in the next few days...




I'll take a PS3 if you've got one going?

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ZukanModerator
Zukan


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #932934 - 08/08/11 07:46 AM
This all kicked off due to a misunderstanding. I believe someone shouted out Macs are better that PCs and that was pretty much it.

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Zukan]
      #932959 - 08/08/11 09:47 AM
I can see were the misunderstanding came in, PCs are better than Macs... Well the AMD ones are LOL

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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Zukan]
      #932965 - 08/08/11 10:20 AM
Quote Zukan:

This all kicked off due to a misunderstanding. I believe someone shouted out Macs are better that PCs and that was pretty much it.




Really? I heard it was because some of the Enfield crew decided to start using 96kHz SR and the Wood Green massive was having none of it.

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Mash



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933057 - 08/08/11 04:50 PM
Where are you based again Ken?

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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Mash]
      #933059 - 08/08/11 05:00 PM
Quote Mash:

Where are you based again Ken?




Haringey on the border with Hackney (current rioting). But they're mobilising in Lewisham, Peckham, Oxford Circus according to social networking buzz...

You're in Shoreditch right? Dalston was hit lsat night and I can see Bethnal Green entering the fray.

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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ken long]
      #933061 - 08/08/11 05:02 PM
...word is Stratford could be next.

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Mash



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933063 - 08/08/11 05:14 PM
Just tucked off Shoreditch High Street, so Bethnal Green Road all of 2 mins away

Didn't know about Dalston, is very horrible following FB updates from friends living in riot areas

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Aftertouch
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Mash]
      #933065 - 08/08/11 05:52 PM
Hackney, Lewisham, Peckham and Croydon.

Tonight may not be good.


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933069 - 08/08/11 06:47 PM
Gotta love it haven't you? Tories get back in and what do we have? Demonstrations and riots. And they're the party who are big on law and order?

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Edited by jellyjim (08/08/11 06:47 PM)


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Mash



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933075 - 08/08/11 07:03 PM
Just had a horrible txt from friend down the road:

"Absolutely f****n mental on Bethnal Green Road! Properly kicking off! S**t loads of balaclavas & police! x"

Dark.

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933076 - 08/08/11 07:10 PM
Quote jellyjim:

Gotta love it haven't you?




Not really buddy. Worried about fam and worried I won't be able to get into work tomorrow.

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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Mash]
      #933077 - 08/08/11 07:11 PM
Quote Mash:

Just had a horrible txt from friend down the road:

"Absolutely f****n mental on Bethnal Green Road! Properly kicking off! S**t loads of balaclavas & police! x"

Dark.




Lived on BG road for years. Thought the elders would have more control than this.

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Mash



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933079 - 08/08/11 07:18 PM
"Where I'm working nr Old Street just got raided by three masked men who stole some equipment. Got threatened but no one hurt. Locked inside with shutters down!"

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necromunger



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ken long]
      #933080 - 08/08/11 07:19 PM
why don't they just use bloody water cannons


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Neil C
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933082 - 08/08/11 07:21 PM
Several cars won't be passing their MOT's.
I'm surprised how long one can so fiercly burn. News, which that clearly is and you watch it for 20 minutes until the last of the flames die down, can be so educational.

I find it ironic that when Gadaffi says it's all criminal elements, he's all wrong and our government respect Libyan building stock by bombing it, and when the government spokespeople say it's simply all criminal elements here they're all right.


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Mash



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Neil C]
      #933086 - 08/08/11 07:44 PM
On the up side I've got me some bangin' new trainers.

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933087 - 08/08/11 07:49 PM


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humandrums



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: DragonLogos]
      #933089 - 08/08/11 08:05 PM
Quote DragonLogos:

I can see were the misunderstanding came in, PCs are better than Macs... Well the AMD ones are LOL





ive got your back there champ, you bring the bottles ive got the petrol, we can go and burn down the apple shoppe if you want?

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Stan



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933094 - 08/08/11 08:22 PM
Tottenham makes way for new olympic village.

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933097 - 08/08/11 08:45 PM
Protestors hang effigy of banker from Marble Arch

A group called the Government of the Dead dressed up as zombies for the demonstration, last night. Scores of revellers and musicians marched along Oxford Street chanting slogans and waving placards such as "eat the bankers", and "march of the corporate undead"

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Mash]
      #933104 - 08/08/11 09:14 PM
Quote Mash:

Just had a horrible txt from friend down the road:

"Absolutely f****n mental on Bethnal Green Road! Properly kicking off! S**t loads of balaclavas & police! x"

Dark.




Tesco on fire I've read from a friend.

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DragonLogos
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: humandrums]
      #933105 - 08/08/11 09:24 PM
Quote humandrums:

ive got your back there champ, you bring the bottles ive got the petrol, we can go and burn down the apple shoppe if you want?




Could open the batting with a few ipods, whats the bet I could hit a iPhone 4 for a 6

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Frisonic



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: DragonLogos]
      #933108 - 08/08/11 09:37 PM
I am not remotely surprised by this unrest. I well remember the riots of 1981 which were an expression of youth despondency and a sense of being dispossessed. I didn't riot, I produced music, street and fringe theatre shows about it instead. But I was in Brixton then and I was one of those dispossessed youths.

I have for some time been wondering when the kids were going to kick back against the consequences of recession this time around. I have long since anticipated that they would because everything this government and its predecessor have done in response to the economic downturn, itself the result of property greed, has been to protect property owners. The Lib Dems are as guilty of this as both Labour, old and new, and the Conservatives. That more than 80% of the MPs expenses scandal was about financing their own property greed from the public purse only goes to underline how entrenched the political classes are in this dangerous dogma.

Until we have an economy that is based on growth underpinned by more than just artificially inflated property values, perhaps where public investment generates opportunity equally for those who have not 'done the right thing' as Daily Mail readers like to say, expect more of the same.

I'm not pleased to see it happening and I feel for those who are feeling the fear in those neighborhoods that are being directly effected. I live (proud to rent) in south west London, on a busy junction not far from a major A&E hospital. There's a lot of ambulance action tonight.

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ken long]
      #933110 - 08/08/11 09:49 PM
Quote ken long:

Quote jellyjim:

Gotta love it haven't you?




Not really buddy. Worried about fam and worried I won't be able to get into work tomorrow.




I hope you and yours are all Ok Ken but um it was a turn of phrase that doesn't mean you gotta love it at all! It means the opposite.

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933111 - 08/08/11 09:55 PM
Quote Frisonic:

I am not remotely surprised by this unrest. I well remember the riots of 1981 which were an expression of youth despondency and a sense of being dispossessed. I didn't riot, I produced music, street and fringe theatre shows about it instead. But I was in Brixton then and I was one of those dispossessed youths.

I have for some time been wondering when the kids were going to kick back against the consequences of recession this time around. I have long since anticipated that they would because everything this government and its predecessor have done in response to the economic downturn, itself the result of property greed, has been to protect property owners. The Lib Dems are as guilty of this as both Labour, old and new, and the Conservatives. That more than 80% of the MPs expenses scandal was about financing their own property greed from the public purse only goes to underline how entrenched the political classes are in this dangerous dogma.

Until we have an economy that is based on growth underpinned by more than just artificially inflated property values, perhaps where public investment generates opportunity equally for those who have not 'done the right thing' as Daily Mail readers like to say, expect more of the same.

I'm not pleased to see it happening and I feel for those who are feeling the fear in those neighborhoods that are being directly effected. I live (proud to rent) in south west London, on a busy junction not far from a major A&E hospital. There's a lot of ambulance action tonight.




Abso-[ ****** ]-lutely.

Civil unrest this widespread isn't as a result of criminal elements alone. We live in a MASSIVELY divided society and it's only getting worse. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Labour's genius was to put more people in the middle who are neither so the rich could hide even better and the poor wore ignored even more.

Our society has a deep deep sickness and nobody does a damn thing about it. In fact they make it worse they vote in the Tories.

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Stan



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933112 - 08/08/11 09:56 PM
Quote Frisonic:

I well remember the riots of 1981 which were an expression of youth despondency and a sense of being dispossessed.



Me too. This does not seem the same. More like LA this time.

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: necromunger]
      #933113 - 08/08/11 09:58 PM
Quote necromunger:

why don't they just use bloody water cannons




So why don't they just legislate against the massive greed of the banking system so that not quite so many people get quite so [ ****** ] over in the first place?

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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Stan]
      #933115 - 08/08/11 10:04 PM
Quote Stan:

More like LA this time.




This forum really needs a "like" button.

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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933116 - 08/08/11 10:04 PM
Quote jellyjim:

Quote ken long:

Quote jellyjim:

Gotta love it haven't you?




Not really buddy. Worried about fam and worried I won't be able to get into work tomorrow.




I hope you and yours are all Ok Ken but um it was a turn of phrase that doesn't mean you gotta love it at all! It means the opposite.




I know dude.

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933119 - 08/08/11 10:16 PM
So a guy on the BBC is saying the people involved aren't interested in politics and are just out for themselves.

Well yeah that's the point. They see the bankers and politicians and the likes of Murdoch getting away with murder and taking whatever the hell they like with impunity and they're thinking well why can't I? They're so dispossesed from mainstream society and they've got nothing to lose so yeah they're going to riot.

"They don't care because they don't have a stake in society." Ken Livingstone

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. . . Delete This
Here be Dragons


Joined: 23/06/08
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933120 - 08/08/11 10:18 PM
i'm cynically of the opinion it's being allowed to happen so the government has an excuse to further curtail freedom at a later date....


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #933121 - 08/08/11 10:23 PM
Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

i'm cynically of the opinion it's being allowed to happen so the government has an excuse to further curtail freedom at a later date....




And it wouldn't surprise me if the Police are 'well if you will cut the number of officers on the force then screw you, deal with your own bloody riots.'

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933122 - 08/08/11 10:27 PM
One thing that has a lot of people really ticked off is the lack of action against the prannies that started the whole sub prime toxic loans, and it has happened worldwide... house prices went though the roof (slight pun) and the smile of this was soon gone when taxes and rates went up as well, then there was the fact that your kids were left high and dry as they could not afford to buy a house and rents also went up

I don't see things getting any better either, the stock markets are down, Gold is sitting on 1 710 and the Euro is skating on very thin ice. I think the people have had enough

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933124 - 08/08/11 10:32 PM
I mean don't get me wrong, they're all complete freakin loons but you've got to ask why and specifically why now?

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Dynamic Mike



Joined: 31/12/06
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933127 - 08/08/11 10:39 PM
Quote Frisonic:

I am not remotely surprised by this unrest. I well remember the riots of 1981 which were an expression of youth despondency and a sense of being dispossessed.




You get perhaps one incident of genuine civil unrest & the rest is simply opportunistic criminality. I too remember the riots of 1981, we didn't even know Liverpool 8 was called Toxteth until after the riots. It's the Georgian Quarter now, they'll probably protest by holding a guerilla Rekei session.

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Dynamic Mike]
      #933132 - 08/08/11 10:55 PM
Quote Dynamic Mike:

Quote Frisonic:

I am not remotely surprised by this unrest. I well remember the riots of 1981 which were an expression of youth despondency and a sense of being dispossessed.




You get perhaps one incident of genuine civil unrest & the rest is simply opportunistic criminality. I too remember the riots of 1981, we didn't even know Liverpool 8 was called Toxteth until after the riots. It's the Georgian Quarter now, they'll probably protest by holding a guerilla Rekei session.




Lol!

The people involved either don't know how to express themselves politically or are unable to but rest assured it's civil unrest alright! It doesn't have to be genuine or coherent even. Some of us express our dissatisfaction and anger with the system by writing to our MPs or - God forbid - actually voting. Other people steal TVs and break stuff.

Something's gone terribly wrong and "criminality" explains bugger all.

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: DragonLogos]
      #933135 - 08/08/11 11:02 PM
Quote DragonLogos:

I think the people have had enough




You give "the people" far too much credit. "The people" don't give a fek because the idea of success through doing fuc. all has been for fed to them for 20 years. Do you know who's to blame more than economics, bankers and government wankiness? The fuc.ing press. They can take full credit for pushing the lowest common denominator.... I 'ate 'em...


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A Non O Miss



Joined: 07/02/08
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933137 - 08/08/11 11:15 PM
civil unrest??

unlikely...

other then that??

no comment...

hope all are safe and everyone makes it through unscathed...


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #933138 - 08/08/11 11:15 PM
Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

i'm cynically of the opinion it's being allowed to happen so the government has an excuse to further curtail freedom at a later date....




in the meantime, the whole south east is burning... no government, no mayor.

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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933139 - 08/08/11 11:17 PM
Quote narcoman:

Quote DragonLogos:

I think the people have had enough




You give "the people" far too much credit. "The people" don't give a fek because the idea of success through doing fuc. all has been for fed to them for 20 years. Do you know who's to blame more than economics, bankers and government wankiness? The fuc.ing press. They can take full credit for pushing the lowest common denominator.... I 'ate 'em...




+1, this is the creed of the all-to-feckin'-easy come to life.

Let's sell people a message in which the pinnacle of ambition is to emulate the lifestyle of the vacuous all the time supported by degrees in any doohicky that contains the minimum of actual knowledge or real prospects.

Mmmm: that works then!

Reg


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933140 - 08/08/11 11:31 PM
Quote narcoman:

Quote DragonLogos:

I think the people have had enough




You give "the people" far too much credit. "The people" don't give a fek because the idea of success through doing fuc. all has been for fed to them for 20 years. Do you know who's to blame more than economics, bankers and government wankiness? The fuc.ing press. They can take full credit for pushing the lowest common denominator.... I 'ate 'em...




Can we get estate agents in there too please?

But yeah the press don't help. It's all a big festering circle of filth feeding on itself. It's all symptoms of a deeper rot though.

Somebody's going to die at this rate. Where the hell are the police?!

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Dynamic Mike



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933141 - 08/08/11 11:33 PM
Quote jellyjim:

Quote Dynamic Mike:

Quote Frisonic:

I am not remotely surprised by this unrest. I well remember the riots of 1981 which were an expression of youth despondency and a sense of being dispossessed.




You get perhaps one incident of genuine civil unrest & the rest is simply opportunistic criminality. I too remember the riots of 1981, we didn't even know Liverpool 8 was called Toxteth until after the riots. It's the Georgian Quarter now, they'll probably protest by holding a guerilla Rekei session.




Lol!

The people involved either don't know how to express themselves politically or are unable to but rest assured it's civil unrest alright! It doesn't have to be genuine or coherent even. Some of us express our dissatisfaction and anger with the system by writing to our MPs or - God forbid - actually voting. Other people steal TVs and break stuff.

Something's gone terribly wrong and "criminality" explains bugger all.




Martin Luther King jr once told me, 'A riot is the language of the unheard'. Then he said, 'Do us a favour mate, grab the other end of that telly, I only live round the corner..'

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Jumpeyspyder



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933143 - 08/08/11 11:35 PM
Heard that Rockbottoms in Croydon has been looted

Used to hang out there as a teenager not buying very much back in the 80s hope thats not another shop about to close.


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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933147 - 08/08/11 11:46 PM
Quote jellyjim:


Somebody's going to die at this rate. Where the hell are the police?!




They quit to appear on XFactor or do music tech degrees.

Now is that entirely inaccurate?


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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933149 - 09/08/11 12:09 AM
Quote jellyjim:

Where the hell are the police?!




Overstretched. Something to do with cuts.

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Stan



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ken long]
      #933158 - 09/08/11 01:01 AM
who'd be a bobbie

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Edited by Stan (09/08/11 01:03 AM)


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Jumpeyspyder



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Stan]
      #933159 - 09/08/11 01:15 AM
Or a fireman !


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Frisonic



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933164 - 09/08/11 04:26 AM
Quote narcoman:

Quote DragonLogos:

I think the people have had enough




You give "the people" far too much credit. "The people" don't give a fek because the idea of success through doing fuc. all has been for fed to them for 20 years. Do you know who's to blame more than economics, bankers and government wankiness? The fuc.ing press. They can take full credit for pushing the lowest common denominator.... I 'ate 'em...




+1

But public policy, as practiced by many countries that have followed Roosevelt's 1930s 'New Deal' model, has seduced not only bankers, who were simply responding to said public policy, but also Joe Schmow. In the USA, UK, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, India, China, Australia, New Zealand... and so it goes on. But it doesn't work. The media has a lot to answer for in how out of hand it has become. So do the central banks and the politicians who claim not to have been pulling their stings.

Whiteness that Germany and France, for example, which are not afflicted so badly by property greed, are not included in the list above. Also note that China and India's governments have been taking active action to quell their own property bubbles for many months.

I suspect these kids have spotted how badly they have been dumped upon and decided to take some advantage of their own. Its wrong. But no more wrong than the injustice they rightly feel.

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Aftertouch
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Jumpeyspyder]
      #933165 - 09/08/11 04:57 AM
Quote Jumpeyspyder:

Heard that Rockbottoms in Croydon has been looted

Used to hang out there as a teenager not buying very much back in the 80s hope thats not another shop about to close.




Saw it from one of the news 'copters. Rockbottoms shopfront was no more. The pawnbroker a few doors along was in flames, along with a few other shops along that stretch. I couldn't quite make it out, but a few shots looked like the back of rockbottom was on fire, but it may have been one of the adjacent shops. That part of West Croydon has been hit bad. Heard and read some not good things.


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Zukan


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933171 - 09/08/11 07:42 AM
Build up to the 2012 Mayan vibe thingy n'est pas?
Economies crumbling, natural disasters, Cheryl back with Ashley....

We're doomed I tell ya, we're doomed (a la Dad's army dude voice).

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933190 - 09/08/11 09:24 AM
Although Roosevelt was not a big fan of the Bankers... referring to them as Banksters

I think one of the things that drew me to this article was the term coup d'etat - having used the term in a song (Robbing Africa) - They're robbing Africa, a financial coup d'etat

Quote:

Overnight, the U.S. Treasury and Federal Reserve have radically changed the character of American capitalism. It is nothing less than a coup d'Etat for the class that FDR (Franklin D Roosevelt) called "banksters." What has happened in the past two weeks threatens to change the coming century - irreversibly, if they can get away with it. This is the largest and most inequitable transfer of wealth since the land giveaways to the railroad barons during the Civil War era - Michael Hudson




Quote:

The machines employed by hedge funds in particular have given a new meaning to Casino Capitalism. That was long applied to speculators playing the stock market. It meant making cross bets, lose some and win some - and getting the government to bail out the non-payers. The twist in the past two weeks' turmoil is that the winners cannot collect on their bets unless the government pays the debts that the losers are unable to cover with their own money


Investors in hedge funds had to sign a paper saying that they were rich enough to afford to lose their money on this financial gambling. Your average mom and pop investors were not permitted to participate. Despite the high rewards that millions of tiny trades generated, they were deemed too risky for the uninitiated lacking trust funds to play with


Mr. Bush and Greenspan did have a helpful solution, of course. The Treasury could turn Social Security and medical insurance money over to Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers and their brethren to invest at the "magic of compound interest."


What would have happened to U.S. Social Security had this been done? Perhaps we should view the past two weeks' events as having assigned to Wall Street gamblers all the money that has been set aside since the Greenspan Commission in 1983 shifted the tax burden onto FICA wage withholding. It is not retirees who are being rescued, but the Wall Street investors who signed papers saying that they could afford to lose their money. The Republican slogan this November should be "Gambling insurance, not health insurance." - Michael Hudson September 21 2008




Now while all this talk of money madness is nothing new, and it would appear that there is little relation to the unrest vs the problems of the rest of world, it is a worry... and when it gets to the point were people have nothing less to loose things can get ugly quickly

Lets hope that the Banksters have not build a B Ark

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ConcertinaChap



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933220 - 09/08/11 11:58 AM
I think this article in the Independant makes a lot of good points.

CC

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Chevytraveller
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933224 - 09/08/11 12:05 PM
This was too well orchestrated to be simple civil unrest.. I'm certain there are organising forces behind it

Riot map

got a bit too close to home here in Blackheath.. glad to here you and yours are ok Ken..




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Frisonic



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933228 - 09/08/11 12:09 PM
Quote narcoman:

Quote jellyjim:


Somebody's going to die at this rate. Where the hell are the police?!




They quit to appear on XFactor or do music tech degrees.

Now is that entirely inaccurate?




Now somebody has and its firearms what did the killing.

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humandrums



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933235 - 09/08/11 12:27 PM
wasnt to clever in sunny liverpool either :/

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Jumpeyspyder



Joined: 20/01/06
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933241 - 09/08/11 12:44 PM
Lots of 'people' getting together to do things in their local area - example of Mr Cameron "Big society" ?


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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #933247 - 09/08/11 01:00 PM
Quote ConcertinaChap:

I think this article in the Independant makes a lot of good points.

CC




Indeed... also there was a big outcry about invading Afghanistan because it would fuel the drug problem in years to come, some things happen and sometimes ppl are pushed in a direction they really do not want to go and when they find that they are so lost there is almost no hope some Burke turns around and says its all your own fault anyway, you just happened to fall into the trap that was put there

Like putting rat poison in drugs, the drugs make them a bit high and they they feel sick from the rat poison, so they get more drugs to kill the pain... putting out fire with petrol

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #933253 - 09/08/11 01:18 PM
Quote ConcertinaChap:

I think this article in the Independant makes a lot of good points.

CC




indeed

what these kids are doing is entirely abhorrent but then so are multi-million pound bonuses for bankers during a recession and the most abhorrent thing of all is the system that perpetuates the whole stinking mess

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Chaconne



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933259 - 09/08/11 01:36 PM
Press AND all other media.

A lot of people are getting rich [cough BBC etc cough] by force feeding us load of $%^&*** about how we should live, what we should buy, eat, use up, while at the same time putting this banquet at the end of an impossibly long table, while hiding the plates and knifes.

I cant read any newspapers, they are just a load of hypocritical waste of trees.

The Tories speak like headteachers taking to naughty boys.

And B.T.W you can discuss sociology whithout condoning any of the actions, like Jane Goodall!

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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933260 - 09/08/11 01:39 PM
hmmmm...

there's a bit too much of the broad stroke throwing around of how offensive banker bonuses are...

it's fair to say that ALL the undeserved bonuses are offensive..... "just for showing up to the board meeting, here's a half million quid" kind of bonus...

but performance related pay bonuses.... i think could be fair comment....

if , through shrewd and intelligent investment , an investment banker makes a profit of half a billion quid for his fund clients, (and thus his bank) it's not unreasonable to pay him a million quid bonus.... it's less than 0.2% of the money he or she made for someone....

however, i DO think that they should equally have a pay cut, or bonuses reclaimed if they LOSE money......

yes, it would be nice if someone would pay any of US a million quid, but then that CAN happen , if through shrewd manipulation of notes and lyrics we write a number one hit, and a top ten album....


i would like to see an enforced tax on such performance related bonuses of say 50% , so if they earn a million, half a million goes back to the tax payer for bailing out the banking system.....


and not a total ban on the offensive ones, but a 99.9% tax ...

again, to offset the tax payer bailout.


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Chaconne



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933261 - 09/08/11 01:46 PM
Ha ha ...just saw Boris totaly fail...could not even get his bluster on- just shouted down!

What an eeedjet!!!

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hollowsun



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #933264 - 09/08/11 01:52 PM
Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

i would like to see an enforced tax on such performance related bonuses of say 50% , so if they earn a million, half a million goes back to the tax payer for bailing out the banking system.....



That already happens.

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Chaconne]
      #933266 - 09/08/11 01:55 PM
Quote Chaconne:

Press AND all other media.

A lot of people are getting rich [cough BBC etc cough] by force feeding us load of $%^&*** about how we should live, what we should buy, eat, use up, while at the same time putting this banquet at the end of an impossibly long table, while hiding the plates and knifes.

I cant read any newspapers, they are just a load of hypocritical waste of trees.

The Tories speak like headteachers taking to naughty boys.

And B.T.W you can discuss sociology whithout condoning any of the actions, like Jane Goodall!




oh yes. The government - WE can take responsibility for. But the useless (on the whole ) press? They're the biggest part of the problem. THEY'RE the ones that have cajoled the "me too" thrill seeking "I wanna have £30k a year but I don't wanna do anything for it" attitude all to common in the UK. I 'ate em..... think I've said this before !


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Here be Dragons


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933268 - 09/08/11 02:09 PM
it is in the nature of ALL life, not just humanity, to want a free lunch.


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #933270 - 09/08/11 02:15 PM
Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

if , through shrewd and intelligent investment , an investment banker makes a profit of half a billion quid for his fund clients, (and thus his bank) it's not unreasonable to pay him a million quid bonus.... it's less than 0.2% of the money he or she made for someone....




it became utterly indefensible the moment the taxpayer bailed out the mysogonistic privileged little public school pricks that make up the banking system

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DragonLogos
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #933271 - 09/08/11 02:21 PM
Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

hmmmm...

there's a bit too much of the broad stroke throwing around of how offensive banker bonuses are...

it's fair to say that ALL the undeserved bonuses are offensive..... "just for showing up to the board meeting, here's a half million quid" kind of bonus...

but performance related pay bonuses.... i think could be fair comment....





I don't have a problem with people earning their money, trading land for firewater is another story, and getting massive bonuses on toxic (and known to be toxic) deals is not only out of the question, it should be go directly to jail do not pass go time

You can just hear them singing " we messed up but we made you pay, we messed up but we made you pay "

You can see Young Sprat come running into the boardroom and saying " ohh bother, it looks like the game is up " and then the Walrus turns around and says - " Maybe, but lets try and brass it out first, we can ask BOE for a few trillion till next Friday and see if the peeps buy it, if they do all well and good, if not, well you spotty lot have kept your jobs for a few weeks more "

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #933274 - 09/08/11 02:24 PM
Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

it is in the nature of ALL life, not just humanity, to want a free lunch.




It is. It is. But what one shouldn't do is offer the illusion that you CAN have it.....


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Chaconne



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933275 - 09/08/11 02:31 PM
And in a way, society - religion, politics etc is just a sublimation of our need to survive, whilst at the same time not scratch each others eyes out.

The less 'society', the more tooth and claw, the more society, the eaisier it gets for other methods, when being fit fails.

Difficult balancing act.

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onesecondglance



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933284 - 09/08/11 03:40 PM
Quote jellyjim:

... so are multi-million pound bonuses for bankers during a recession




can we put this myth to bed please?

1. not everyone who works for a bank is an investor or anything to do with the credit crisis, but the media will still call them "bankers".
2. when the media report "multi million pounds" of bonuses for organisations that have 10,000+ employees that could be no more than a hundred pounds or so for each person.

just because the media tell us that there are "multi million pound bonuses for bankers" does NOT mean that johnny hedge-fund is buying another ferrari whilst giving two fingers to joe average. i'm not saying it hasn't happened but we can't trust the agenda the papers want to sell us.

... i bet the editors in fleet street got some pretty sweet bonuses last year too.

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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933285 - 09/08/11 03:43 PM
Quote jellyjim:

Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

if , through shrewd and intelligent investment , an investment banker makes a profit of half a billion quid for his fund clients, (and thus his bank) it's not unreasonable to pay him a million quid bonus.... it's less than 0.2% of the money he or she made for someone....




it became utterly indefensible the moment the taxpayer bailed out the mysogonistic privileged little public school pricks that make up the banking system




Very few of those working as investment bankers in London these days are from the British public school system. Those that are are there strictly on merit, having made the grade in a ultra competitive global market. I've never worked in that industry but I know for fact that, for example, the business people at Goldman Sachs's London office comprise 64 different nationalities, few of whom are actually Brits. They typically come from every kind of background you could imagine, from privilege to outright poverty and the only thing they mostly have in common is scary high IQs, being alumni of the worlds best universities, often under full scholarships, and a work ethic that is not at odds with 80 hour or more working weeks.

Also, if they lose money not only do they not get their salary compensation (commonly but incorrectly known as their bonus). They get fired, forthwith, with no golden handshake. In fact the firm mentioned above culls 10% of its staff as a matter of routine even on a good year, just to make way for new talent. Those selected for the chop are done so strictly on the basis of their annual 360 degree performance reviews, and they all know what they are getting into even before they apply for a job. It is also interesting to note that the financial and even general media is littered with people who unsuccessfully applied for these jobs. Quite a lot of them are still deeply resentful at being turned down and to my certain knowledge use their positions as journalists to extract revenge. Easy to do when most of the population haven't got a clue what investment banking actually is.

I'm not an apologist for the financial services industry and I have always thought it 25% responsible for the economic crisis of 2008, which has never gone away. But I also award 25% respectively to politicians/policy makers, the media and those who participated in the property bubble (the mortgagees).

As I have said earlier, I do think there is a close link to the civil unrest we are seeing in the UK today and the economic collapse of 2008, which I mostly attribute to property greed in the UK, Republic of Ireland, Spain, Portugal and the United States of America. I also believe that said property greed was actively encouraged, as a central pillar of public policy in all the above countries. It is having noted this that is causing both the Chinese and Indian governments to actively cool their own property markets so as to decouple their current outstanding growth from the very high possibility of a collapse in that asset class.

Also, to put the record straight, lots of banks were not bailed out by anyone and those that were have all paid back most or all of the money they were loaned. In the case of Goldman Sachs they only accepted the token $10 billion of TARP money, which they didn't need, as a favour to Hank Paulson because he wanted to know that at least one bank in the scheme would survive. They paid it back six months later with 23% interest. Generally the 'bailouts' comprised loans that were principally given in an attempt to avoid a collapse in property values (although Vince Cable will tell you it was to keep the wheels of industry turning, which is a part of his populist but hollow mantra - back in 2007 he was rather more convincingly warning about the property bubble)...

Don't believe everything you read in Rolling Stone, especially when they attempt to report on matters not associated with Rock & Roll. I have personally met Lloyd Blankfine and he is not a vampire squid.

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Re: Riots In London new [Re: onesecondglance]
      #933286 - 09/08/11 03:45 PM
if you want a conspiracy theory to toss about, what are the odds of the press (think Murdoch) having deliberately spurred on the riots to take the spotlight off themselves....


????

after all, who cares about phone hacking when carpet right is on fire.

????????


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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933288 - 09/08/11 03:51 PM
If not that, then certainly an element of glee in the matter for the fekkers......


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Frisonic



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: . . . Delete This User . . .]
      #933289 - 09/08/11 03:53 PM
I just don't believe in conspiracy theories. Nobody's that organised!

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933290 - 09/08/11 03:55 PM
of course.


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Stan



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933292 - 09/08/11 04:22 PM

Help has arrived.

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.. is this thing on?


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DragonLogos
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933296 - 09/08/11 04:40 PM
The power to indebt others to oneself can be achieved by free credit creation. However, the resulting mushrooming exponential growth in indebtedness must collapse at the point where its interest and other carrying charges (now augmented by exorbitant late fees, bounced-check fees, credit-card costs and other penalties) absorb the entire economic surplus

First with military force and then via debt bondage and serfdom, Rome bequeathed to Europe a property-based, creditor-oriented body of law. But since the 13th century, country after country has shifted the balance back to favor debtors – to save them from literal debt bondage, from debtor’s prisons, from permanent indebtedness, to give them Clean Slates on an individual level

Handel arranged the first performance of The Messiah as a benefit to raise money to bail debtors out of Irish debtors’ prisons, and every year the oratorio was repeated for that charitable purpose. Martin Luther warned about the mathematics of compound interest as the monster Cacus, devouring all. Yet Luther’s denunciations of usury are excluded from his collected works in English

That is why they pay themselves such large annual bonuses and large salaries each year. The idea is to take as much as you can. As the saying goes: “You only have to make a fortune once in a lifetime.” They have been salting away their fortunes year after year, mainly in hard assets: real estate (free of mortgages), fine furniture, boats and trophy art. One last $700 billion heist and they can make their getaway

Wonder who wrote it

Michael Hudson is President of The Institute for the Study of Long-Term Economic Trends (ISLET), a Wall Street Financial Analyst and Distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri, Kansas City

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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933299 - 09/08/11 04:47 PM
Don't bank on the casino

http://www.dispatch.co.za/article.aspx?id=349518

Quote:

The winning side assumed not only that the rival political system had collapsed but also that capitalism was the only viable system and proceeded to strip it of all existing controls and regulations.

There thus emerged a capitalism that was finally “free”, and at the same time self-destructive.

While in the 1960s the financial sector comprised just over three percent of the US GDP, by the mid- 2000s this figure had more than doubled to eight percent. The protagonists of the current economic world, with the exception of Bill Gates, come from the world of finance, from Warren Buffett and George Soros to Bernard Madoff. In the past they were industrial giants like Rockefeller, Ford, or Hilton, none of whom would have dreamed of receiving a bonus of 500 million like the one that the president of Blackwater investment group awarded himself in the middle of the financial crisis



Roosevelt was equally clear: “There must be strict supervision of all banking and credits and investments. There must be an end to speculation with other people’s money.” In his first inaugural speech he had denounced “the practices of the unscrupulous money changers” who “stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men”.







Roberto Savio

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Frisonic



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: DragonLogos]
      #933305 - 09/08/11 05:58 PM
"Roosevelt was equally clear: “There must be strict supervision of all banking and credits and investments. There must be an end to speculation with other people’s money.” In his first inaugural speech he had denounced “the practices of the unscrupulous money changers” who “stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men”."

Well all banking, credits and investments are strictly supervised. But if you want to stop any speculation with other people's money, fine. Say goodbye to all the pension funds that people expect to fund their old age for example. What hedge and private equity funds do on behalf of their investors, whilst also strictly regulated is basically their own business. Their investors are highly informed and mostly fairly savvy (minimum investments tend to be in the tens if not hundreds of thousands, so only very high net worth individuals can get a seat at that particular table in the casino). And of course quite a few of those investors are the afore mentioned pension funds because its the only place they can reliably get a large enough return to offer their customers what they do. But for the sake of accuracy do remember that investment banks don't lend money as such. That's not what they do. They might invest in a deal they have put together, or a new enterprise, using their own money. That happens all the time and actually demonstrates that they too are in it for the long run.

Going back to Roosevelt, who I have always thought was a populist idiot, it was his fault that certain countries, including his own and the UK (I listed them earlier) became addicted to property greed. It's his fault that if you choose not to be in owner occupation in the UK you are regarded with suspicion and treated as a second class citizen by the tax system and the middle classes. He started it all with his 'New Deal' and look where its got us!

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TSH-Tim



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933325 - 09/08/11 08:27 PM
Sick of hearing about this .... all i can say is our hearts go out to all those innocent people - bring the army in and sort them out

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933339 - 09/08/11 09:45 PM
Quote Frisonic:

Well all banking, credits and investments are strictly supervised. But if you want to stop any speculation with other people's money, fine. Say goodbye to all the pension funds that people expect to fund their old age





I think they have just done that... said goodbye to their pension funds, why else do you think they are trying to raise the pension age, but its not really lies is it, Iraq really did have WMD, it was not about Oil... its never about free lunch Dollars, or ppl trading in Oil rather than Fiat currencies, because there is only so much Gold and far too many people

What gets me is that the so called Captains are just humans, some good, some bad - everyone is just hoping that the boat does not get rocked too much

Hedge funds, glad you brought it up, because as quoted these are run by ppl that sign papers that they are ready to loose their money, when the time came they did the brave Sir Robin

For years people have been warning about the sub-prime debt based system will crash, well here it is, say hello

Why is it? Because you cannot take without giving back

It is not

The customer has no rights, Do one to others before they do one to you.... or heads I win, tails you loose

Maybe if some people had taken the time to read John Forbes Nash jnr they might have got a handle on things and learn to respect and help people... because while this money talk would appear to be moving away from the thread topic, it is part and parcel of what is going on and its time that everyone wakes up to that fact, this is the body's way of saying that there is something wrong

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TSH-Tim



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933346 - 09/08/11 10:40 PM
I've just been told its hit Guildford in Surrey !! WHAT !! I really hope not....

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ConcertinaChap



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: TSH-Tim]
      #933365 - 10/08/11 07:57 AM
Quote TSH-Tim:

Sick of hearing about this .... all i can say is our hearts go out to all those innocent people - bring the army in and sort them out




Yes, completely agree.

And then, afterwards, work out what's so wrong with our society that thousands and more feel so disconnected that they can do this. Then fix it.

You can't have one without the other. Otherwise it's either chaos and anarchy or a police state in our future depending on who wins the final confrontation.

CC

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crofter
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933370 - 10/08/11 08:15 AM
It simply does not do to let the lower orders of society get too numerous, in times past natural wastage in warfare would thin them out a bit, in the modern world there isn't anything for these people to do, still all is not lost, they could still do something useful,they could be kitted out with a pair of big boots and a hammer and sent out mine clearing in various parts of the world now that they are not required to soak up shrapnel.


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Pete Kaine
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: crofter]
      #933377 - 10/08/11 08:36 AM
Quote crofter:

hey could be kitted out with a pair of big boots and a hammer and sent out mine clearing in various parts of the world now that they are not required to soak up shrapnel.




Hahah... I came to the same conclusion this morning too on another mailing list.

Well I live just outside the Manchester center and it has to be said our side escaped the brunt of it althrough I noted not without some irony that Maplins and it's perminent CCTV equiptment window display had been cleared out, althrough i'm unsure if it was by looters or nervous shop owners wanting more protection.

The bigger irony for me through is that the sort of scum that were out last night were the same as you'd get at any of the race riots that hit Oldham and the such through out the year. I live just outside the legendary curry mile where it was business as normal all night without a hint of trouble, but then if your a regular hard working person of any persuasion you take some pride in your local. As far as I'm concerned we should just ship off the benefit scum to some remote island with no populace and plenty of killers preditors up the food chain and leave them there until they realise how easy they have it.

I have friends who live on Piccadilly both of them had the shops under their flats destroyed I see from the news, althrough news filters back their property upsatairs is undamaged. They are both working down down south this week thankfully otherwise I have a feeling I'd have spent the night round theirs with a number of friends a bottle of Jacks and a baseball bat each waiting for the shits to try it on.

These are not protest riots, they are abuse of not just the middle class but also the working class by those who haven't got the moxy or the self respect to do anything with their lives apart from aspire to be on Jeremy Kyle.

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933379 - 10/08/11 08:37 AM
now.... let's see...... about 20,000 of them and about 50 million of us....


hmmmmm

Second : c'mon. It was piracy first. Use of the internet for criminal gain. Now we have internet and phone networks used for violent means. We need Twitter, Facebook, Orange, Vodafone and the rest of 'em to step in right now. What are THEY doing?


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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933388 - 10/08/11 10:12 AM
Quote narcoman:

now.... let's see...... about 20,000 of them and about 50 million of us....


hmmmmm

Second : c'mon. It was piracy first. Use of the internet for criminal gain. Now we have internet and phone networks used for violent means. We need Twitter, Facebook, Orange, Vodafone and the rest of 'em to step in right now. What are THEY doing?




Well, first of all, most of the comms was handled through RIM's encrypted network - not FB, Twitter or other open networks.

Secondly, I hope they don't change a thing. It is helping expose some of the worst regimes in the world and losing anonymity would mean certain death to change.

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933396 - 10/08/11 11:00 AM
Anonymity is only okay when the parties can be trusted. I know I can! I don't cause major issues on here. Also - the powers within SOS know who I am.....

Comms systems, for many many reasons, DO need to change. For piracy and now for flash crowds. BUT - it's a double edged sword, of course.

The problems are deeper seeded than "just raw thuggery". Those thugs were made by us. Darkus Howe, whilst being a little inflammatory, has a point!


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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933400 - 10/08/11 11:06 AM
Quote narcoman:

Anonymity is only okay when the parties can be trusted. I know I can! I don't cause major issues on here. Also - the powers within SOS know who I am.....

Comms systems, for many many reasons, DO need to change. For piracy and now for flash crowds.




Sorry, don't buy it. Forum anonymity is incomparable to the anonymity needed for freedom of expression within brutal regimes. Without anonymity, we would not have disclosure and we would not have whistleblowers. In fact, I doubt we'd have much info in the press.

btw, I'm not talking about forum anonymity which, within a closed system as this forum is, is easy to police.

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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933402 - 10/08/11 11:06 AM
Quote narcoman:


The problems are deeper seeded than "just raw thuggery". Those thugs were made by us. Darkus Howe, whilst being a little inflammatory, has a point!




Agreed. Brilliant clip that.

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ConcertinaChap



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ken long]
      #933404 - 10/08/11 11:19 AM
Quote ken long:

most of the comms was handled through RIM's encrypted network - not FB, Twitter or other open networks.




Which may be more porous than its users think - interesting article in the Register.

CC

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Neil C
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Pete Kaine]
      #933407 - 10/08/11 11:42 AM
Quote Pete Kaine:

As far as I'm concerned we should just ship off the benefit scum to some remote island with no populace and plenty of killers preditors up the food chain




Fresh from 1788.



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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Neil C]
      #933412 - 10/08/11 12:20 PM
Quote Pete Kaine:

As far as I'm concerned we should just ship off the benefit scum to some remote island with no populace and plenty of killers preditors up the food chain




Why don't you just gas them in ovens?

Personally I'd give them fair access to education, housing and jobs. If they'd had that in the first place they wouldn't be rioting.

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crofter
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933413 - 10/08/11 12:22 PM
Quote jellyjim:

Quote Pete Kaine:

As far as I'm concerned we should just ship off the benefit scum to some remote island with no populace and plenty of killers preditors up the food chain




Why don't you just gas them in ovens?

Personally I'd give them fair access to education, housing and jobs. If they'd had that in the first place they wouldn't be rioting.



They have the same access as most other people, some choose not to take it.


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hollowsun



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933416 - 10/08/11 12:25 PM
Quote jellyjim:

Personally I'd give them fair access to education...



They have fair access to education ... the same education as any other child in the UK, in fact.

They choose to p!ss it against the wall, however.

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Dynamic Mike



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #933418 - 10/08/11 12:35 PM
Quote ConcertinaChap:

You can't have one without the other. Otherwise it's either chaos and anarchy or a police state in our future depending on who wins the final confrontation.




I think we lost this confrontation 25 years ago when we said you can't discipline your children. We systematically dis-empowered the education system, the police, the courts and even neighbourhoods. The more astute kids realised they were untouchable & played the victim role to the naive do-gooders in the gallery. We denied them the opportunity to develop realistic expectations by removing the opportunity to fail. We told children to expect to succeed, paid them to attend school, gave them A*'s for turning up, then sold them worthless degrees in subjects which were never likely to generate a living wage. And now we wonder why kids today have no respect?

Anyone remember Lord Michael Winstanley's 'This Is Your Right' tutoring those who proudly did little, how to do less, for more? Perhaps now would be the time for a sequel, 'F*ck You, We Have Rights Too.'

I look at society now and see Kipling's 1919 prediction for the brave new world 'When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,' has arrived. Yet still we look to the 'wisdom' of Darkus Howe, rather than the traumatised asian shopkeeper saying surely his own young kids face the same discrimination, yet manage to find jobs.

We are the dis-enfranchised generation, not the scum on the streets. Maybe it's time we started taking it back?

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The Elf
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: hollowsun]
      #933420 - 10/08/11 12:38 PM
I have to say I do associate with, and work with, many people who know how to play the benefits game. I'm constantly impressed by their ingenuity and application to the task.

Everyone is different, and far be it from me to say I understand everyone's motives, but of those I know...

The last thing they want is education or a job, but they do want your dinner and your X-Box. I'm afraid it's that simple.

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933423 - 10/08/11 12:45 PM
shakey line this one.


All have the same theoretical access. But social pressures don't work that way. I pissed my teenage years away with car theft, stealing and drug abuse. Fortunately - I wised up AND was in a position and location where it was relatively easy to "get out". I don't think it's quite as simple for people who just don't understand the way out.

Social and economic pressures are a wild and complex beast, and often MPs just do not understand the needs and requirements. How could they? They have been forced to play a media game.

When a headline on the front page of a newspaper goes on at length at the diet shenanigans of Cheryl Cole and the latest stabbing in Birmingham is relegated to three lines on page 14 you have to begin to ask yourself what newspapers and reporting really means. The ideal is a free press.... but what we really have as a free MARKET press - one in which competition far outweighs the contents within.

This - in turn - only supports an ignorant and uneducated underclass. An uneducated underclass does nothing but watch telly and listen to the "you can have anything you want" self entitlement support network of Xfactor, Britains got talent or how brilliant it s to spend 5 quid a week on lottery tickets. The mass market IS the poor end of the world. It IS those who have not much..... and yet the mass market aims to take even more away from the very souls who have nothing. The end result - you get a few stupid ideas down the throats of people who are too stupid and ignored to know and do any better.

It's even more complex than that, though. This has come at a time of economic crisis - but this crisis AGAIN is fuelled by the freedom for all super market economy of the right of centre world the democratic west lives in. Credit isn't wealth - but that's how many see it.

We care so much about the freedoms of the individual we have ignored the basic fact that those who achieve nothing (by either their own hand or their social circumstances) will automatically and without prejudice seek other roads. What's best for the country isn't necessarily best for every individual. The converse is also true.

We have lost a balance. The lack of discipline amongst a tiny few far outweighs any sense of people coming together and delivering a common cause solution. There ARE answers to this problem - but do you want the immediate band aid solution or the twenty year plan? Or do you want one of the many routes for different time frames.

I'm sure the current government want a three year solution. Well that would be small police power reform, cash into the cops and prison reform. BUT that isn't a long term answer - the long term answer is

+ to address the real race driven grievances this country STILL suffers from.
+ Understand the true implication of long term mass privatisation
+ look at what three or four generations of underclass (lack of) education means to a country
+ look at media promotion of lowest common denominator..... the ideals of the "self entitled" individual
+ think twice before expanding Europe further with nations that have hugely mis-weighted economies when compared to the older member states.
+ think about the long term implications of seeking cheaper manufacturing in "cheap" nations.
+ stop trying to be world police.


oh - and don't do EVERYTHING for private profit!

I doubt I could get 10 western citizens to sign up the the real solutions to those..... clue - one of them is giving the oil control back to the arabs and letting them set the price agenda. It's their land after all. Problem is - you'd have to tolerate the backlash of 60 year old (ex- Mesopotamia) nations who have their owns issues with the west and dictatorial vengeance.

So ..... it's a deep seeded problem, it's not gonna be solved quickly and how bad do you want it?


Shockingly - I would prefer a police state over anarchy!! At least you COULD have fair police if you wanted it!


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Pete Kaine
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Neil C]
      #933425 - 10/08/11 12:51 PM
Quote Neil C:


Fresh from 1788.





And look how that turned out!

A fine nation that most of us Brits would choose to live in if given the chance!

Quote jellyjim:


Why don't you just gas them in ovens?





Gotta give them a chance!

Quote jellyjim:


Personally I'd give them fair access to education, housing and jobs. If they'd had that in the first place they wouldn't be rioting.




They have all that, and choose not to make use of it.

I grew up with a single mother who never claimed anything other than child support in her life and certainly didn't sign on for a council house as she had too much pride. I then left home at 16 as she couldn't afford to put me through any form of further education and paid my way though any number of professional qualifications off my own back.

I've worked pretty much every day since the last day I stepped out of the school gates and then I get to watch interviews with scrotes telling us how they are owed more by the government having never worked a day in their lifes.

I've in my time worked in some of the fine drinking establishments that they visit to spend the giros and I've heard them put the world to rights about how hard done by they are.

Get. A. Job.

Don't winge that the is only menial work out there... maybe they shouldn't have spent all day messing about at school and playing hooky to go get drunk in the park and rob round the Arndale.

I don't have a problem with people who have been laid off or fallen on hard times or have some medical condition to contend with.

I have a problem with those long term, never had more than a weeks work in any given year and expect a full payout each two weeks. I don't care who you are, the are jobs out there if you get off your righteous horse and put your nose to the grindstone.

If your not willing to contribute to this countries upkeep then you shouldn't be here. I'd rather welcome the skilled masses who want to come here to work in order to improve their lives than keep paying tax to support those who don't.

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Yago
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: crofter]
      #933426 - 10/08/11 12:52 PM
Quote crofter:

Quote jellyjim:

Quote Pete Kaine:

As far as I'm concerned we should just ship off the benefit scum to some remote island with no populace and plenty of killers preditors up the food chain




Why don't you just gas them in ovens?

Personally I'd give them fair access to education, housing and jobs. If they'd had that in the first place they wouldn't be rioting.



They have the same access as most other people, some choose not to take it.




Well they dumped the grants system , so many can't afford a university education .

Edited by Yago (10/08/11 12:52 PM)


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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933429 - 10/08/11 01:07 PM
Do what everyone else does. Take the damn student loan (as ugly as it is).


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: hollowsun]
      #933431 - 10/08/11 01:17 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Quote jellyjim:

Personally I'd give them fair access to education...



They have fair access to education ... the same education as any other child in the UK, in fact.

They choose to p!ss it against the wall, however.




A black kid in a poor neighbourhood surrounded by rundown schools and poor local facilities has the same access to education as a white child with wealthy parents who can afford to move to affluent areas where the better schools are?

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Pete Kaine]
      #933433 - 10/08/11 01:22 PM
Quote Pete Kaine:

I have a problem with those long term, never had more than a weeks work in any given year and expect a full payout each two weeks. I don't care who you are, the are jobs out there if you get off your righteous horse and put your nose to the grindstone.




But I don't think that's who these people are. These are people who are so dispossessed that they are beyond the system. Compared to their situation your upbringing was privileged.

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933435 - 10/08/11 01:24 PM
indeed. It's easy to make a judgement call from outside.

Whilst never condoning the actions of thugs, understanding why they ARE thugs should be the long term mandate. Social positioning is everything in life. Having access to education isn't enough if the social upbringing you have just laughs at students.....


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Dynamic Mike



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933436 - 10/08/11 01:25 PM
Quote jellyjim:

A black kid in a poor neighbourhood surrounded by rundown schools and poor local facilities has the same access to education as a white child with wealthy parents who can afford to move to affluent areas where the better schools are?




I presume we're talking about Barack Obama? It doesn't seem to have affected his career prospects in the long term though.

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Dynamic Mike]
      #933438 - 10/08/11 01:27 PM
Quote Dynamic Mike:

Quote jellyjim:

A black kid in a poor neighbourhood surrounded by rundown schools and poor local facilities has the same access to education as a white child with wealthy parents who can afford to move to affluent areas where the better schools are?




I presume we're talking about Barack Obama? It doesn't seem to have affected his career prospects in the long term though.



exceptions, unlike the old saying, do NOT prove a rule. They merely disprove an assumption. In this case it would be "all deprived kids have no chance".


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Dynamic Mike]
      #933439 - 10/08/11 01:28 PM
Quote Dynamic Mike:

Quote jellyjim:

A black kid in a poor neighbourhood surrounded by rundown schools and poor local facilities has the same access to education as a white child with wealthy parents who can afford to move to affluent areas where the better schools are?




I presume we're talking about Barack Obama? It doesn't seem to have affected his career prospects in the long term though.




That's one black american in tens of millions with all the advantages of his obvious natural talents. Not everybody can be Obama. Are you saying those who aren't should be condemned to a life of poverty?

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SecretSam
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933440 - 10/08/11 01:30 PM
Interesting points, all of you.

Did I hear correctly, though, that a gang of dispossessed audio engineers was planning to meet in Denmark Street about sundown tonight ? Apparently a protest against music licensing for pubs, imported Chinese mics, and copyright infringement. Don't forget your hoodie and a brick. And save your most angry moments for when standing outside Hank's Guitar Shop: scandalously overpriced under normal circumstances ....


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Dynamic Mike



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933442 - 10/08/11 01:31 PM
Quote narcoman:

Quote Dynamic Mike:

Quote jellyjim:

A black kid in a poor neighbourhood surrounded by rundown schools and poor local facilities has the same access to education as a white child with wealthy parents who can afford to move to affluent areas where the better schools are?




I presume we're talking about Barack Obama? It doesn't seem to have affected his career prospects in the long term though.



exceptions, unlike the old saying, do NOT prove a rule. They merely disprove an assumption. In this case it would be "all deprived kids have no chance".




The highest recorded IQ was a black woman. There's two more assumptions disproven

Bet she couldn't parallel park though...

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Dynamic Mike



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933443 - 10/08/11 01:36 PM
Quote jellyjim:

Quote Dynamic Mike:

Quote jellyjim:

A black kid in a poor neighbourhood surrounded by rundown schools and poor local facilities has the same access to education as a white child with wealthy parents who can afford to move to affluent areas where the better schools are?




I presume we're talking about Barack Obama? It doesn't seem to have affected his career prospects in the long term though.




That's one black american in tens of millions with all the advantages of his obvious natural talents. Not everybody can be Obama. Are you saying those who aren't should be condemned to a life of poverty?




And a looted 46" TV lifts you out of poverty? No, but having your shop looted might well lower you into it

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933447 - 10/08/11 01:48 PM
of course not. But that isn't the point. That's the "immediate solution" approach; stop the looters. And of course you SHOULD stop the looters.

Without addressing the areas I outlined above this will happen again and again. Do people REALLY think this problem has just appeared? The only thing that has just appeared is mass criminal damage and rioting. The issues have been there for years. The problems have been growing for years and the attitude of these thugs has been the same all that time.

However the underlying problem is still the same - the lowest section of society is expressing itself much to everyone else disgust. But we MADE them. The UK press, the banking crisis, the media "savvy" gov, the exploitation of stupidity through things lowest common denominator ents everything.....

As well as STOP them we have, for everyone else sake, to pull them OUT of the underclass. Do they have to WANT to change? Sure - but we have to instil that desire for change. It has to be inclusive. Knee jerk reactions of "cunts - just put em in the army" or "shoot em" or whatever - that does not take away the problem. It's the same old thing of dealing with the wound rather than the axe that caused it....


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Dynamic Mike



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933450 - 10/08/11 02:04 PM
Quote narcoman:

Do people REALLY think this problem has just appeared? The only thing that has just appeared is mass criminal damage and rioting. The issues have been there for years. The problems have been growing for years and the attitude of these thugs has been the same all that time.




That's precisely what I posted at 12.35

We're reaping the result of many years of failed parenting & false illusions. But people can, and do, rise above it. Very few of us have had it easy, but trying to justify simply taking away what someone else has grafted for because you feel left out, just perpetuates the wrong message.

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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933451 - 10/08/11 02:05 PM
Quote narcoman:

we same - the lowest section of society is expressing itself much to everyone else disgust. But we MADE them. The UK press, the banking crisis, the media "savvy" gov, the exploitation of stupidity through things lowest common denominator ents everything.....





Let's not forget the music industry...

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Dynamic Mike]
      #933453 - 10/08/11 02:14 PM
Quote Dynamic Mike:

Quote narcoman:

Do people REALLY think this problem has just appeared? The only thing that has just appeared is mass criminal damage and rioting. The issues have been there for years. The problems have been growing for years and the attitude of these thugs has been the same all that time.




That's precisely what I posted at 12.35

We're reaping the result of many years of failed parenting & false illusions. But people can, and do, rise above it. Very few of us have had it easy, but trying to justify simply taking away what someone else has grafted for because you feel left out, just perpetuates the wrong message.



There is never a justification, but there is often a reason. Seeking the reasons is important. Looking to justify would be unforgivable!


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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ken long]
      #933454 - 10/08/11 02:18 PM
Quote ken long:

Quote narcoman:

we same - the lowest section of society is expressing itself much to everyone else disgust. But we MADE them. The UK press, the banking crisis, the media "savvy" gov, the exploitation of stupidity through things lowest common denominator ents everything.....





Let's not forget the music industry...




In it's own small way the attitudes towards music are a microcosm of the world as a whole.


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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933459 - 10/08/11 02:35 PM
Quote narcoman:

Quote ken long:

Quote narcoman:

we same - the lowest section of society is expressing itself much to everyone else disgust. But we MADE them. The UK press, the banking crisis, the media "savvy" gov, the exploitation of stupidity through things lowest common denominator ents everything.....





Let's not forget the music industry...




In it's own small way the attitudes towards music are a microcosm of the world as a whole.




I'm not talking about the attitudes towards music but those generated by producers and labels wanting to cash in on yoof kulcha and advocating bling lifestyles in vids and lyrics.

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933468 - 10/08/11 02:45 PM
so was I. I meant EVERYTHING.


The music tech rip off colleges. The sense of self entitlement purveyed by Xfactor and the democratisation of recording. The piracy. The ubiquitous trash. The hiding of ability and calling it talent (autotune, editing). The values placed on "success" (i.e success = bling n bitches). All of it.


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Neil C
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Pete Kaine]
      #933471 - 10/08/11 03:27 PM
Quote Pete Kaine:

Quote Neil C:


Fresh from 1788.





And look how that turned out!






The population boomed with people going for the gold rush. That was many more people than were ever transported.


Quote Pete Kaine:


she couldn't afford to put me through any form of further education





Neither could my, or many mothers.
Staying on for A levels was free, and I got a grant for (proper) University.

I can't blame anyone for not wanting to do work they would hate doing, when they have an alternative they would prefer.

Who does not ever calculate what you can get away with?


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Pete Kaine
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Neil C]
      #933478 - 10/08/11 04:13 PM
Quote Neil C:


Neither could my, or many mothers.
Staying on for A levels was free





Roof over my head wasn't!

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Pete Kaine]
      #933486 - 10/08/11 05:00 PM
Quote Pete Kaine:

Quote Neil C:


Neither could my, or many mothers.
Staying on for A levels was free





Roof over my head wasn't!




You had something lots of these people don't. You had love from which you developed your sense of self-worth. These kids have been told all their lives that they're worthless undeserving shits. So what are they going to do? Act like worthless undeserving shits. And polite middle class society RIGHTLY rejects them for their behaviour but it only makes it worse.

They need to learn self-discipline, not be on the receiving end of brutal authoritarianism. They need positive role models not Jeremy Kyle. They need to feel like the have some value and something to give society. They need the care and attention of educated, stable, intelligent people like you or I or anyone else on this thread. We have so much more than they do and yes many of them may have failed to lift themselves out of their situations and turned down opportunities - but haven't we all done that? We're only human after all, and we all have every right to be a bit average if that's what we are. But the difference is, when we fall, we don't fall anywhere near as far as them.

Mentoring programs, good local facilities such as gyms or libraries, somewhere constructive to go other than street corners and so on and so forth might all cost money - but then so does clearing up and policing riots.

As much as you might like to, we can't ship them out. We can't "sweep" them off the streets. We can't explain them away simply as greedy, mindless criminals (just as we can't explain away errant bankers as irresponsible, greedy criminals). If you believe in society - the alternatives are anarchy or totalitarianism - then we have a collective responsibility to drag the horrible little fuckers out of the gutter for the sake of everybody. And yeah I loathe them for their actions just as much as you but the solution isn't to just mop up the aftermath of a riot every 25 years, talk tough words and hope the real problem just goes away.

The real problem being unending, grinding, soul-destroying poverty and social deprivation.

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Yago
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933495 - 10/08/11 05:29 PM
Well said Jim .

These are our people , like it or not .
We have to embrace the future , not milk of all opportunities for personal gain .
The privileged of feeling distanced from the problem need not apply .


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Studio Support Gnome
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Yago]
      #933498 - 10/08/11 05:42 PM
1) i occasionally find myself thinking what a bunch of hypocritical bollox


2) the phrase "Work Ethic" is completely alien to seemingly the vast majority of the youth of today.

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Yago
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #933502 - 10/08/11 05:56 PM
Can I ask how your developing years went Max ?

I myself slept in a room that had inches of ice on the inside of the windows for 3 months of the year , one paraffin heater for the house until I was 14 years old .
The point being I was able to gain an education in electronics via the grant system .

People can deal with life if there is an outlet for those with brains and drive .


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artifus



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933504 - 10/08/11 06:07 PM
Quote jellyjim:






+1

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crofter
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Yago]
      #933506 - 10/08/11 06:19 PM
Quote Yago:

Can I ask how your developing years went Max ?

I myself slept in a room that had inches of ice on the inside of the windows for 3 months of the year , one paraffin heater for the house until I was 14 years old .
The point being I was able to gain an education in electronics via the grant system .

People can deal with life if there is an outlet for those with brains and drive .



I still live in such a house, you get some lovely patterns, I can't afford to heat it very well so I wear a quilted jacket and thick socks indoors and have a blanket wrapped round me in the winter,I live 1500 feet up in the hills so it gets f***ing cold up here.


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Studio Support Gnome]
      #933507 - 10/08/11 06:31 PM
Quote Max!:

2) the phrase "Work Ethic" is completely alien to seemingly the vast majority of the youth of today.




Yeah because they're getting such mixed messages.

They can steal music and films online with impunity.

They're told via advertising that they're better people if they have the latest mobile, car, jeans, pair of trainers but they can't possibly afford them.

They're told to get an education but they have to pay for it - for years and years. What working class kid used to the dog eat dog day by day grind of a dilapidated council estate is going to dare to make that sort of financial commitment? And there isn't even a guarantee of a job at the end of it. What's more they're competing with all the shiny middle class kids for jobs handed out by - you guessed it - a tier of middle class managers! Whilst we'd all like to think we're free of prejudice who would you give a job to - somebody who talks like a chav and where's a bit to much Burberry (wouldn't want to upset the clients) or some nice polite lad who knows how to speak proper ... like.

They watch Jeremy Kyle and are encouraged to wallow in an emotional mire that hasn't grown beyond it's early teens.

They see bankers and politicians getting away with blue murder.

They're encouraged not only to shop online but to socialise online and when it's too dangerous to step outside their front doors it's no wonder real physical community diminishes or is undervalued.

They see the gentrification of previously socio-economically neutral areas and feel excluded and envious. I live in Kemptown Village in Brighton which is full of cafes, clothing boutiques, gastro-pubs and local businesses like private gyms and health spas. A couple of miles away is Whitehawk, one of the roughest areas in East Sussex. When the lads and lasses pop into The Village they stick out like a sore thumb. Guardian readers twitch nervously from behind their expensive lattes and Whitehawk's youth hide behind their bemused looking attack dogs!

They watch the X-Factor and they're told you don't need to work to make it. You just need talent. If anything has damaged the work ethic in this country it's twats like Simon Cowell.

Not everybody can make it. The one in a million chance of celebrity or fame isn't a good enough solution to put 2 million people back to work.

For a time under successive Labour governments they saw some genuine investment in their communities but along come the Tories and to help pay for a global financial crisis not of their making they suddenly find themselves at the sharp end of sweeping cuts in social and public services that embarrasses even American politicians and effects everybody bar the wealthy.

They see celebrities boozing, drugging, dieing, fighting, shagging, you name it - and they're told that CELEBRITY=GOOD.

No wonder they're confused. The poor fuckers need some guidance! Not exclusion from society.

And you can bet your bottom dollar that for every 1 rioter there's a 100 kids who are just as angry but haven't fallen quite so far through the net and know not to behave in such an abhorrent manner. But the rioters are just the tip of an iceberg of dissatisfaction.

It's been branded around a lot lately but there's a great Martin Luther King quote, "Riots are the voice of the unheard"

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Edited by jellyjim (10/08/11 06:40 PM)


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ken long



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: crofter]
      #933509 - 10/08/11 06:59 PM
Quote crofter:

I can't afford to heat it very well so I wear a quilted jacket and thick socks indoors and have a blanket wrapped round me in the winter,I live 1500 feet up in the hills so it gets f***ing cold up here.




Ah. But you've got internet.


Priorities.

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crofter
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ken long]
      #933512 - 10/08/11 07:10 PM
Quote ken long:

Quote crofter:

I can't afford to heat it very well so I wear a quilted jacket and thick socks indoors and have a blanket wrapped round me in the winter,I live 1500 feet up in the hills so it gets f***ing cold up here.




Ah. But you've got internet.


Priorities.



Yes, we all have priorities, you can't have it all,some people expect everything and for nothing.


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Yago
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: crofter]
      #933513 - 10/08/11 07:14 PM
I think it is my time to back out from this thread .
I feel bad about being so challenging to Max , and that a d!ck has been made of and by myself .

Sry folks , laters .


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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933514 - 10/08/11 07:14 PM
Quote jellyjim:

etc etc...




right on! I agree


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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Yago]
      #933515 - 10/08/11 07:15 PM
Quote Yago:

I think it is my time to back out from this thread .
I feel bad about being so challenging to Max , and that a d!ck has been made of and by myself .

Sry folks , laters .




You haven't been a dick!!! People all see this different is all!!


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: crofter]
      #933516 - 10/08/11 07:22 PM
Quote crofter:

Quote ken long:

Quote crofter:

I can't afford to heat it very well so I wear a quilted jacket and thick socks indoors and have a blanket wrapped round me in the winter,I live 1500 feet up in the hills so it gets f***ing cold up here.




Ah. But you've got internet.


Priorities.



Yes, we all have priorities, you can't have it all,some people expect everything and for nothing.




and some people just have nothing anyway and never will

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Yago]
      #933517 - 10/08/11 07:23 PM
Quote Yago:

I think it is my time to back out from this thread .
I feel bad about being so challenging to Max , and that a d!ck has been made of and by myself .

Sry folks , laters .




What did I miss?!

Max is a big boy he loves a little rough and tumble.

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crofter
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933519 - 10/08/11 07:26 PM
Quote jellyjim:

Quote crofter:

Quote ken long:

Quote crofter:

I can't afford to heat it very well so I wear a quilted jacket and thick socks indoors and have a blanket wrapped round me in the winter,I live 1500 feet up in the hills so it gets f***ing cold up here.




Ah. But you've got internet.


Priorities.



Yes, we all have priorities, you can't have it all,some people expect everything and for nothing.




and some people just have nothing anyway and never will



I would have nothing if I didn't work for it.


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Dishpan



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933521 - 10/08/11 07:37 PM
> They're told via advertising that they're better people if they have the latest mobile, car, jeans, pair of trainers but they can't possibly afford them.

Tell that to the kids from an inner-city where I work, who (almost without exception) have blackberry's, the latest trainers, the latest jeans, the best makeup, hair cuts weekly at expensive salons, XB360s AND PS3s AND laptops. What a load of cobblers; the kids today have far more physical possessions than any of the people my age ever had when we were young.


> They see bankers and politicians getting away with blue murder.

I've never ONCE heard one of them even mention bankers. It might be convenient to bring it up as the universal evil, but it's really not in their reality at all. Interested in which youth you teach. Not one of the interviews with the riots (and I've seen dozens) mentioned the bankers either. If that was part of the reason they rioted, you'd think they would mention it when given the opportunity to...


> What working class kid used to the dog eat dog day by day grind of a dilapidated council estate is going to dare to make that sort of financial commitment?

So they care so little that they can make the commitment to break the law, riot, smash up shops and cars and risk having a criminal record for the rest of their lives but then they go home and think "hmm I'd like to study but can I really make that sort of financial commitment"???


> They watch the X-Factor and they're told you don't need to work to make it. You just need talent. If anything has damaged the work ethic in this country it's twats like Simon Cowell.
> Not everybody can make it.

You REALLY actually believe that they think they're going to? Not one of the kids I work with thinks they're "going to make it", whether or not they watch X-Factor. A lot have little (or no) aspiration and don't give a stuff about their future, but that's not because they think they're magically going to get rich without effort.

-

I actually agree with much (probably most) of what you say, but I don't think the "reasons" you give are reasons at all.


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Yago
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933522 - 10/08/11 07:39 PM
Cheers Narco , Jim

I got annoyed at myself for using the same (irrelevant) weapon , that I have seen over much of on the internet these last few days .

It's the "it wer reel tuff wen I wer a kid" speech .
As aptly demonstrated hence :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAtSw3daGoo

I think the absolute question , that I know , that I myself would fail , is :
"Would you like to spend your formative and teenage years growing up in those conditions ?"


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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933527 - 10/08/11 07:48 PM
yeah Max is cool. He wouldn't be "rickrollin" yah!!! Just different view that's all.

I happen to agree with you.

Dishpan - maybe not THE reasons, but they are contributory. It's a deep deep problem and not one to be solved overnight.

Remember folks - nobody is making excuses, but we do need to understand the reasons.


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Pete Kaine
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933528 - 10/08/11 07:49 PM
Quote jellyjim:


As much as you might like to, we can't ship them out. We can't "sweep" them off the streets.





Yeah, I know that, it was a whim of course as a reaction to seeing the carnage this morning on the way to work.

And I'm all for political action and I've marched on occasion for the causes I believe in, but I would never have got away with getting involved in such wide ranging carnage as a youth and whilst I suppose that's your point (parent steering you right) when I see business's that friends have built from the ground up destroyed and other friends afraid to leave their abode then my own emotional response is hardly going to be muted.

Quote jellyjim:


We can't explain them away simply as greedy, mindless criminals (just as we can't explain away errant bankers as irresponsible, greedy criminals). If you believe in society - the alternatives are anarchy or totalitarianism - then we have a collective responsibility to drag the horrible little fuckers out of the gutter for the sake of everybody. And yeah I loathe them for their actions just as much as you but the solution isn't to just mop up the aftermath of a riot every 25 years, talk tough words and hope the real problem just goes away.





The thing is from a point my point of view I can see why the London one's happened. The actions that started it and from my own time kicking around some of the locations affected when I was younger I can understand the older one's around their 20's that have maybe never had that opportunity.

Then we're back to the to the footage on T.v. of the Manchester one's and when asked why they are doing the seems to be a blanket "Because we're owed it". Sorry, I just can't get my head round it, how is robbing trainers from footlocker or swiping the wine from the corner shop a act of gaining respect and what is rightfully yours. They are doing it because they can. They see the news stating that all the riot police are down in London restoring calm and they are taking the opportunity to go on the rob.

Quote:


The real problem being unending, grinding, soul-destroying poverty and social deprivation.





Maybe... but honestly how do we change that?

The is a lack of jobs, too many people leading into this poverty trap and rioting so it seems. Honestly whilst I agree with everything you say in reality the funds are overstretched and resources too few... even before everything being cut to shreds it was stretched and all that has happened since then is more people have been born and funds have been reduced. Labours ambitious plans whilst great never work because they are not economically viable, and they just sink this county further into the mire each time, leading to the Con's slashing it all again and reducing the debt only to have Labour back in and increase it once more.

Something it agrees that we both agree on is that it's neither one party or the other it's the whole damn system.

(As a side note the USA could have had this nailed years ago as the American founding fathers had it right : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_the_United_States#General_develop ments

" Many of America's Founding Fathers hated the thought of political parties. [22] They were sure quarreling factions would be more interested in contending with each other than in working for the common good. They wanted citizens to vote for candidates without the interference of organized groups, but this was not to be." but anyway I digress)

The real solution is actually far more simple to implement but I already know I'll get shouted down for it - follow China and allow 1 child per couple or per father.

As a race of creatures we live too long now and seem to be outstripping the system we've built to exist with in. If anyone else has a realistic solution that would help resolve it in a few decades I'd love to hear it, but we've had half a century of this see saw'in back and forth now and we're no further forward with a solution.

If I was to lay it out fully I'd say the current level of support from the government for 1 child no support from the government for a second and taxation of each child after that.

The rich can have more children if they can support them and they can pay tax to support the one's that are under the bread line.

If your long term claiming you have enforced options on the NHS to control your reproduction and we loose this incentive to sit at home knocking out sprogs which seems to have become a objective for the underclass as a way to self support.

Totalitarian? Well yeah. But nothing else appears to be working and we're fast approaching the point of no return. We're over running this planet and destroying it day by day and yet we create more life.

Too many pensioners - sorted in 40 years.
High unemployment - sorted in 20 years.
Feral Youths - sorted in 10 years.

We can try and educate all we want, but the's just too damn many of us. I fear the Orwellian future as much as the next person but sometimes you just have put your foot down for the greater good.... as any good parent knows.

Quote jellyjim:


For a time under successive Labour governments they saw some genuine investment in their communities but along come the Tories and to help pay for a global financial crisis not of their making they suddenly find themselves at the sharp end of sweeping cuts in social and public services that embarrasses even American politicians and effects everybody bar the wealthy.





50% income tax rate. VAT @ 20%.

How much tax do you want the wealthy to pay? Where is the desire to sucseed if the is no reward at the end. The rich create jobs and oppertunitys.

All the standard arguements and all valid ones. If your saying currenty taxation should be enforced and tax havens demolished I'm all with you, but implying that the wealthy are simply taking from the poor is utter tosh.

Quote:


They see celebrities boozing, drugging, dieing, fighting, shagging, you name it - and they're told that CELEBRITY=GOOD.

No wonder they're confused. The poor fuckers need some guidance! Not exclusion from society.





True and the media has a lot to answer for, but it's easy to make it all a scape goat for the deeper issues... the's just too many of us on this tiny rock called earth.

Yes the problem is deep but all we seem to be doing is sticking band aids over the cut each time it get's deeper. Of course riots will keep breaking out, as we're not sorting the problem as after all we're all simply animals and animals lash out when cornered.

I've given my solution which I'm sure will be met with venoumous agreement and disagreement from everyone on here (hey, it's Marmite) as it's hardly a policy you could sit on the fence over but it's a solution. The challenge to all is show me a better one that is guaranteed to work in our lifetime.

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Pete Kaine
Scan Computers


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Yago]
      #933530 - 10/08/11 07:54 PM
Quote Yago:

I think it is my time to back out from this thread .
I feel bad about being so challenging to Max , and that a d!ck has been made of and by myself .

Sry folks , laters .




Hardly... I love a good arguement about such things as much as the next person and I'm always happy to play devils advocate to get a debate going. Hopefully nobody feels I'm being a dick here either but's a good banter and some interesting comments being raised by all sides.

As for the 4 Yorkshireman sketch... Aye, coming from pit's of North Yorkshire I relate to it well

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Pete Kaine]
      #933534 - 10/08/11 08:11 PM
Quote Pete Kaine:

Quote Yago:

I think it is my time to back out from this thread .
I feel bad about being so challenging to Max , and that a d!ck has been made of and by myself .

Sry folks , laters .




Hardly... I love a good arguement about such things as much as the next person and I'm always happy to play devils advocate to get a debate going. Hopefully nobody feels I'm being a dick here either but's a good banter and some interesting comments being raised by all sides.




Absolutely although I sometimes wish I didn't have opinions. If I express them too forcefully I start to feel a little bit sick. Like I've had too much ice-cream.

I tell you what though I know this much.

1) I'm glad I'm not poor.
2) I hope there aren't anymore riots.

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Edited by jellyjim (10/08/11 08:14 PM)


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933537 - 10/08/11 08:21 PM
The poorest people in the uk are ordinary families with two or three school aged kids with ordinary lowish paid job(s) living in private acomodation, commuting and trying to do the right thing.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933539 - 10/08/11 08:29 PM
I don't think it's about poverty, it's about hope. Those families 'trying to do the right thing' live in the hope that things will get better and they work towards that - into the future.

If you have no hope then it's very easy to become nihilistic and then anything goes.


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ]
      #933540 - 10/08/11 08:31 PM
Quote ow:

I don't think it's about poverty, it's about hope. Those families 'trying to do the right thing' live in the hope that things will get better and they work towards that - into the future.

If you have no hope then it's very easy to become nihilistic and then anything goes.




yup, that's interesting

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Pete Kaine
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933541 - 10/08/11 08:33 PM
Quote jellyjim:


2) I hope there aren't anymore riots.




Too late sir, action from a few hours ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbVW_QS2eE&feature=youtu.be

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Chaconne



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933542 - 10/08/11 08:41 PM
I have done a little youth work with music, and too be honest coming accross this absolute nihilism was a bit of a shock. Sessions were quite often excersises in crowd control, and despite best intentions offering what you think they want - 'lets make a rap tune' , sometimes it is misjudged - like offering a plaster to someone who clearly has cut an artery.

This is not a general critique of this kind of work, just that it still does not reach everyone.

In Oxford, I have been lucky enough to see both extreme ends of the spectrum, I think some people on here probably have as well. I find both disstasteful, I can't beleive that in a city like this, where future prime ministers and that lot booze it up on one end of the street, a few blocks up there are prostitution and drug rackets allowed to play out on almost the same streets.

Yeah, its always been thus.

But its hard to get your head round.....

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hollowsun



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933544 - 10/08/11 08:52 PM
If these riots are about poverty and disenfranchised people with no hope or prospects, how come among those taking part (and have been arrested) are a primary school teacher, a graphic designer, students, some graduates, a youth worker and someone about to enter the army?

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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Riots In London new [Re: hollowsun]
      #933545 - 10/08/11 08:57 PM
We discussed this today at home. Weconcluded that they are 'easy meat'. So they are the stragglers who just can't resist an open shop window, opportunist padestrians and easy target for the police who are looking for arrests, but not getting too close to the nutters.

But we may be completely wrong, it's just an idea.


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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Yago]
      #933546 - 10/08/11 08:58 PM
Quote Yago:

I think it is my time to back out from this thread .
I feel bad about being so challenging to Max , and that a d!ck has been made of and by myself .

Sry folks , laters .




while I appreciate the civility of the gesture, I don't think it necessary....



my childhood.....


middle class, and pretty lucky .

but not rolling in it.....

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crofter
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: ]
      #933548 - 10/08/11 09:06 PM
Quote ow:

We discussed this today at home. Weconcluded that they are 'easy meat'. So they are the stragglers who just can't resist an open shop window, opportunist padestrians and easy target for the police who are looking for arrests, but not getting too close to the nutters.

But we may be completely wrong, it's just an idea.



The hard line regular hooligans are well practiced in getting away, the newbie amateurs (of previously good character) are the ones getting nicked.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Riots In London new [Re: crofter]
      #933549 - 10/08/11 09:08 PM
It makes sense.


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Pete Kaine]
      #933551 - 10/08/11 09:28 PM
Quote Pete Kaine:

Quote jellyjim:


2) I hope there aren't anymore riots.




Too late sir, action from a few hours ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbVW_QS2eE&feature=youtu.be




THAT'S IT I'VE HAD ENOUGH!! ARGGHHH!!! NO MORE BLEEDING HEART LIBERAL CRAP FOR ME! THE SCUM MUST DIE!

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933554 - 10/08/11 09:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Zmo8DG1gno4

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Dynamic Mike



Joined: 31/12/06
Posts: 2053
Re: Riots In London new [Re: ]
      #933559 - 10/08/11 10:39 PM
Quote ow:

The poorest people in the uk are ordinary families with two or three school aged kids with ordinary lowish paid job(s) living in private acomodation, commuting and trying to do the right thing.




How can it be that the rich & the poor,
Have so many children to love & adore?
The answer to this paradoxical riddle:
They're both being kept by the man in the middle.

DM

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Chaconne



Joined: 21/02/05
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933560 - 10/08/11 10:51 PM
Thats great DM, were does that come from?

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Dynamic Mike



Joined: 31/12/06
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Chaconne]
      #933565 - 10/08/11 11:06 PM
Quote Chaconne:

Thats great DM, were does that come from?




I'm embarrassed to admit I penned it about 25 years ago, shortly after my wife & I sat down & worked out we couldn't afford a second child. Not exactly Martin Luther King, but there's plenty more where that came from..

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Chaconne



Joined: 21/02/05
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933567 - 10/08/11 11:28 PM
Well there is no need to be shy...seamed to make some sense to me, and read like something written by someone with insight....

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Dynamic Mike]
      #933570 - 10/08/11 11:52 PM
Quote Dynamic Mike:

& worked out we couldn't afford a second child




Although I hope you suggested there was no harm going through the motions nonetheless

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Dynamic Mike



Joined: 31/12/06
Posts: 2053
Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933577 - 11/08/11 12:48 AM
Quote jellyjim:

Quote Dynamic Mike:

& worked out we couldn't afford a second child




Although I hope you suggested there was no harm going through the motions nonetheless




Happy to report we still are!

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Stan



Joined: 17/01/05
Posts: 1311
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933579 - 11/08/11 12:58 AM
it's the obnoxious oldfella down the pub - spouting that land is better than money and gold is better than paper cash - it is that, that deceives the young.
You are only as good as your last days work! That is a truth.
It is the powers 'that be' that insure the value of bonds of faith and trust., The military, or kinetic force, if you prefer, that enforce the rule. Not knackers who raid shops for xboxes and plasma screens.
The UK is one of the wealthiest lands on earth - people flock to London and other UK cities for a reason. Trust!

--------------------
.. is this thing on?

Edited by Stan (11/08/11 01:05 AM)


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Stan



Joined: 17/01/05
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933589 - 11/08/11 04:41 AM
Very sad to say, it it now considered 'insurgence' -police are now permitted to use plastic bullets - Dragon off duty BBq lighter.. your suspicions may have been correct.
When i think of it - and believe me i know - Thacher would never have done that - not in the Uk - and she was a bitch. Sorry guys!
Relax Mr.Cameron.

Edited by Stan (11/08/11 05:19 AM)


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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Stan]
      #933611 - 11/08/11 08:59 AM
Quote Stan:

Very sad to say, it it now considered 'insurgence' -police are now permitted to use plastic bullets - Dragon off duty BBq lighter.. your suspicions may have been correct.
When i think of it - and believe me i know - Thacher would never have done that - not in the Uk - and she was a bitch. Sorry guys!
Relax Mr.Cameron.




Well he's in a panic isn't he? Quite rightly so. Your "Big Society" isn't working David.

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SecretSam
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933619 - 11/08/11 09:33 AM
If you want background, have a look at the blogger 'Night Jack,' a former copper and winner of the Orwell Prize for his writing. He was forced to resign from the Police for spilling the beans about the current state of the criminal justice system:

http://nightjack2.wordpress.com/2008/06/17/darkness-at-the-edge-of-town/

http://nightjack2.wordpress.com/

http://winstonsmith33.blogspot.com/

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Dave71



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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933674 - 11/08/11 01:03 PM
there is an e-petition on the direct.gov website for all thoses convicted to loose their entitlement to benefits, but as per usual the website is underfunded and cant cope with the traffic so you cant get on and sign if you wanted to - how ironic is that

lets see what the long term results will be, the scumbags get a free x box/tv/trainers the victims have seen loss of life, income, jobs, higher insurance etc basically adding to the burden on society

make them clean up the mess wearing bright pink boiler suits, evict them from their social housing withdraw benefits and throw them in jail for a bit. Then offer them the chance to reform and support them in doing so with strict conditions - people can and do change

or as Kenny Everett once said - round em up, put em in a field and bomb the barstewards

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Neil C
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Dave71]
      #933684 - 11/08/11 02:07 PM
Quote Dave71:

bomb the barstewards




It's curious that expressing the desire to slaughter people is more acceptable than saying bastard.


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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933685 - 11/08/11 02:08 PM
It isn't the right solution so I won't be signing it.

The right solution is punishment through law, then understand WHY it happened (without excusing it at all) and tackle those issues. These people are twats.... but WHY are they twats? What has driven the mental process that violence is cool, fun and a great evening out? There certainly isn't any meaningful protest in what they've done BUT they are an underclass. How has the UK gov, population and media allowed a section of society to become so messed up? Taking away benefits without measure is an extremely foolish thing to do. Getting the benefits right in the first place may be a better response. If you inject further poverty and mistrust into a maligned section of society who are now living up to their expectations of thuggery and idiocy you only seek to sow deeper seeds.

We've already outlined in this thread much of the causes.... tackling those is far more important than any meaningless vengeance.


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Pete Kaine
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #933689 - 11/08/11 02:53 PM
Quote narcoman:

Taking away benefits without measure is an extremely foolish thing to do.




I'm afraid your right, and I get enough break in attempts already without aggravating the issue by starving them into action as well.

That course of action would be just slighly more effective than pokeing a tiger with a stick.

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Chaconne



Joined: 21/02/05
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933697 - 11/08/11 03:24 PM
Yeah all kinds of knee jerk nonsense from all sides.

What about the buisnessmans daughter, or the teacher, I guess they have to be made homeless as well...or is it one rule for those that....etc etc...round and round.

I have to admit to buying the Daily Mail during this, just for the LOL's.

We should not be to insular about this though, plenty of rioting going on world-wide.
Personaly I see a wars as being more likely than any rational discussions.

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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Dave71]
      #933698 - 11/08/11 03:35 PM
Quote Dave71:

there is an e-petition on the direct.gov website for all thoses convicted to loose their entitlement to benefits, but as per usual the website is underfunded and cant cope with the traffic so you cant get on and sign if you wanted to - how ironic is that

lets see what the long term results will be, the scumbags get a free x box/tv/trainers the victims have seen loss of life, income, jobs, higher insurance etc basically adding to the burden on society

make them clean up the mess wearing bright pink boiler suits, evict them from their social housing withdraw benefits and throw them in jail for a bit. Then offer them the chance to reform and support them in doing so with strict conditions - people can and do change

or as Kenny Everett once said - round em up, put em in a field and bomb the barstewards




Do you think these Cabinet Office e-petitions are supposed to be the 21st century answer to public executions? There is another that has become oversubscribed, calling for the death penalty to be re-introduced in the UK, and the 'let's leave the common market' and 'leave motorists alone' ones always seem to get a signature from their entire church. It seems to be a much loved medium by the 'myopic, little Englander, hanging's too good for 'em, don't come between me and my car' contingency. Shame for them the server seems to keep falling over, or whatever the problem is.

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Dishpan



Joined: 01/09/04
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933701 - 11/08/11 03:38 PM
Makes people think they have powers that they don't...


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Dishpan]
      #933703 - 11/08/11 03:53 PM
Quote Dishpan:

Makes people think they have powers that they don't...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RycwYRcm3Lc

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crofter
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: hollowsun]
      #933707 - 11/08/11 04:03 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Quote Dishpan:

Makes people think they have powers that they don't...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RycwYRcm3Lc



So true


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Mike Stranks
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933714 - 11/08/11 04:54 PM


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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: crofter]
      #933718 - 11/08/11 05:46 PM
Mind you, I suppose that's what we're doing spouting off in this very forum... not that anybody gives a tinker's tit. But I think its very cathartic to loosen off in the occasional blog or forum, which is not so far off topic as this thread perhaps has explored how some prefer other ways to give expression to their frustrations and sense of injustice (i.e. burn and steal what belongs to others).

If its something I really, really care about and I think I have something new to say about it I write a letter to the editor of a serious newspaper, in the time honored tradition. Occasionally I get published and have recently been battling smugness from having had two published so far this year in the Financial Times. However, I wrote one last May, immediately the cuts to the police budget were announced when the newly formed coalition was attempting to stamp its authority. It warned that the economy wasn't likely to recover any time soon, most people under 40 or certainly 30 were going to be excluded from the owner occupation they had been brought up to aspire to, the rescue money was all being spent on protecting those in the property owning category, the likelihood for civil disorder by disenfranchised youth was bordering on a certainty and the government was going to look pretty silly for having slashed into its law enforcement budget when the time came... That one wasn't published, which I must have found frustrating because I'm still banging the same drum in here fifteen months later (and we have civil disorder, even if nobody can agree why, and the government looks even sillier than I could have hoped in my wildest dreams, with Cameron and Clegg looking like a couple of louche wet fish and Boris Johnson possibly having just lost himself next year's mayoral elections).

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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933720 - 11/08/11 05:55 PM
Writing to your MP would probably have more effect than some rag maybe or maybe not publishing your (maybe edited) letter.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/

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Chaconne



Joined: 21/02/05
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Loc: Oxford
Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933722 - 11/08/11 06:00 PM

(I have never literaly L O L ed as much as when I saw that picture Mike.)

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933723 - 11/08/11 06:13 PM
Quote Frisonic:

Mind you ...




In this and other posts I've found you eloquent, well informed and well educated and you position unbiased and properly thought through. You've made me re-think things more than once. So keep writing ...

... but ... some of you are just spouting utter crap straight from The Daily Mail. Please stop buying it. It's awful prejudiced nonsense. You don't sound clever at all. If I didn't love you all by default for being musicians then I'd despair, I really would.

Beyond the destruction I have a profound sadness about all of this because it reveals just how much our society is divided. How fearful we all are of each other. How little we know about each other's lives. How willing we are to be vengeful and not forgiving or charitable or open-minded and above all how the prevailing belief is that the solution is to simply drive people further into the margins and ultimately to exterminate them altogether.

Pfff. Depressing, all of it.

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933724 - 11/08/11 06:46 PM
yup. Have a pimms on me....

...well. Not ON me but....


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Chaconne



Joined: 21/02/05
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933728 - 11/08/11 07:09 PM
yeah, nice one Jelly....

I am begining to feel a bick sick of it all, having spent too long bouncing round the net catching the wind on this.

In comparison, its pretty cosy here.

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jellyjim
active member


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Chaconne]
      #933730 - 11/08/11 07:20 PM
Quote Chaconne:

In comparison, its pretty cosy here.




true enough

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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: hollowsun]
      #933734 - 11/08/11 07:37 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Writing to your MP would probably have more effect than some rag maybe or maybe not publishing your (maybe edited) letter.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/




Do you think the FT is a rag? I think its the last decent newspaper published in the UK although even it has gone down hill in recent years. I've also had letters published in the Times, Guardian, Telegraph and Independent (if it still exists) but that's not hard and I would agree they are basically rags. As for my MP I don't really bother. He's a daft old twit without much influence these days (an awful relic from Margaret Thatcher's last government). But they all read the letters in the influential papers, or their researchers do. Why do you think so many MPs and Lords write to these papers themselves? 'They Work For You' is indeed an excellent website and research resource, and has probably almost put Hansard out of business. I use it all the time and even donated once!

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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933736 - 11/08/11 07:56 PM
Jelly Jim, never worry. I'll continue to spout away my two peneth worth on any subject that interests me but I should correct you about one thing. I am not well educated. Hardly (formally) educated at all. In fact I went to a County Secondary School on the Berkshire Downs (designed to produced tractor drivers) and attained three O levels and two CSEs. I'm entirely self taught. Its one of the things that made me identify with disenfranchised youth movements back in the late 70s and early 80s (nowhere else to go) and my having been denied an education helps me to gain at least a glimpse of what is going on in the heads of these kids who apparently feel so dispossessed.

In my case it was not all the fault of 'the system'. Hardly at all actually, I sort of fell through the cracks between two systems. Other bad stuff happened, which was very bad and mostly responsible for my academic under achievement. But the results are similar.

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jellyjim
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933742 - 11/08/11 08:17 PM
Quote Frisonic:

I am not well educated. Hardly (formally) educated at all. In fact I went to a County Secondary School on the Berkshire Downs (designed to produced tractor drivers) and attained three O levels and two CSEs.




My meaning of educated included self-taught. I hope you took the opportunity to learn to drive a tractor. What fun!

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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933746 - 11/08/11 08:50 PM
last time I was let loose with a tractor I came within 1cm of taking out a very beautiful old barn. It still needed straightening on its foundation. Another job I try to leave to the professionals... They hardly trusted me with a pitch fork after that.

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Dynamic Mike



Joined: 31/12/06
Posts: 2053
Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933778 - 11/08/11 11:56 PM
This page was blocked at my workplace for containing pornographic images! Perhaps it detected David Cameron looking like a tit.

DM

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Steve Hill
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933794 - 12/08/11 05:35 AM
I find it deeply ironic that these "have nots" are organising themselves with their iPhones and Blackberries.

I suggest they go and live in Somalia for a few months to gain a better understanding of what deprivation is, rather than whinge endlessly about how "hard" their lives are in one of the richest countries on earth, with one of the most generous welfare systems.

Right now, we need the courts to hand out some seriously deterrent sentences. Robbery with violence is not a petty crime meriting a bit of community service...

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Steve Hill
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933796 - 12/08/11 05:40 AM
Quote Frisonic:

Do you think these Cabinet Office e-petitions are supposed to be the 21st century answer to public executions? There is another that has become oversubscribed, calling for the death penalty to be re-introduced in the UK, and the 'let's leave the common market' and 'leave motorists alone' ones always seem to get a signature from their entire church. It seems to be a much loved medium by the 'myopic, little Englander, hanging's too good for 'em, don't come between me and my car' contingency. Shame for them the server seems to keep falling over, or whatever the problem is.




All they do is promise a Parliamentary debate if there are 100,000 signatures. It might be no more than the 10 minutes typically allocated to a Private Members' Bill, with no formal vote or division, because the party leaders have agreed in advance what will happen.

But it's still an interesting exercise in giving the people a voice. I shall watch developments.

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Pete Kaine
Scan Computers


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #933812 - 12/08/11 08:34 AM
Quote jellyjim:


... but ... some of you are just spouting utter crap straight from The Daily Mail. Please stop buying it. It's awful prejudiced nonsense. You don't sound clever at all. If I didn't love you all by default for being musicians then I'd despair, I really would.





I'm a very long term Guardian reader living on the edge of the lovely multicultural Moss Side for almost a decade now.

I'm not someone to pre-judge anyone and I've met some cracking people over the years who would fall into the troubled underclass if we were putting class labels on everyone. However those dimonds have also introduced me to a lot of rough elements that the Daily Mail readership and increasingly society would class as troublemakers and a lot of the time good people can be dragged down by the elements around them.

You should never write off anyone for any reason based on pre-determined beliefs or prejuces but the reality is, is that you can't save everyone, expecially those who have no wish to be saved.

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humandrums



Joined: 26/01/10
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933913 - 12/08/11 02:26 PM
i agree just taking peoples benefits off them is not the answer, however making them work to clean up the mess they have done and maybe some other community based projects for there benefits might be the way forward, if you just remove there benefits they are going to go out committing more crime

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crofter
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: humandrums]
      #933917 - 12/08/11 02:50 PM
Quote humandrums:

i agree just taking peoples benefits off them is not the answer, however making them work to clean up the mess they have done and maybe some other community based projects for there benefits might be the way forward, if you just remove there benefits they are going to go out committing more crime



Agreed, the price of benefits should be community service.


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Pete Kaine
Scan Computers


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: crofter]
      #933926 - 12/08/11 03:36 PM
Quote crofter:

Quote humandrums:

i agree just taking peoples benefits off them is not the answer, however making them work to clean up the mess they have done and maybe some other community based projects for there benefits might be the way forward, if you just remove there benefits they are going to go out committing more crime



Agreed, the price of benefits should be community service.




So how does everyone feel on the "Should people on benefits over X amount of time should be doing community service to earn it" argument? It was being knocked about as an idea last year and seems to have gone quiet... who's for and against?

It could teach new skills, improve the community enviroment and even just a days work a week could give some momentum and self confidence in finding work surely?

If that able bodied number (close to a million) did a days work in the community every week, surely that would be a good thing?

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narcoman
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933930 - 12/08/11 04:03 PM
I'm for it.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933932 - 12/08/11 04:28 PM
Me too. But make it fair, so if min wage is a fiver and you get sixty, then twelveish hours a week. Something worked around that type of idea - to keep it fair.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #933933 - 12/08/11 04:34 PM
There's an e-ptition going for that already.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/8820


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Frisonic



Joined: 27/01/10
Posts: 3832
Loc: London, United Kingdom
Re: Riots In London new [Re: Pete Kaine]
      #933937 - 12/08/11 04:48 PM
When I was on the scrap heap of the uneducated in the early 80s there were all kinds of 'non jobs' on offer through the Manpower Services Commission. I took one myself rather than claim dole. Actually it was brilliant. I was working three days a week for the Wandsworth Nature Conservation Unit, which was run by a bearded Canadian entomologist hippy. But a serious boffin with it. We spent the winter going around every public open space in the borough recording species of birds and abundance thereof, and the summer collecting bugs with a sweepnet and a pooter, to be identified under a microscope in the afternoons. The pay was rock bottom. It was only for a year. I felt considerably less on the scrap heap at the end of it.

It had been collegial, we had managed to convince ourselves that what we were doing was worthwhile (in truth the world would hardly have stopped turning if we hadn't bothered). Most importantly it got me back into the habit of working. I could say it helped those within the unit to develop a greater investment in their local community/environment but none of us had anything less to begin with. The scheme seemed to attract couth, responsible people. They were all conspicuously white and seemed rather middle class though...

In retrospect it was a very cheap and effective solution for the government of the day, far cheaper than this talk of national service. But we were volunteers.

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jellyjim
active member


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Loc: uk
Re: Riots In London new [Re: Pete Kaine]
      #933938 - 12/08/11 04:50 PM
Quote Pete Kaine:

Quote crofter:

Quote humandrums:

i agree just taking peoples benefits off them is not the answer, however making them work to clean up the mess they have done and maybe some other community based projects for there benefits might be the way forward, if you just remove there benefits they are going to go out committing more crime



Agreed, the price of benefits should be community service.




So how does everyone feel on the "Should people on benefits over X amount of time should be doing community service to earn it" argument? It was being knocked about as an idea last year and seems to have gone quiet... who's for and against?

It could teach new skills, improve the community enviroment and even just a days work a week could give some momentum and self confidence in finding work surely?

If that able bodied number (close to a million) did a days work in the community every week, surely that would be a good thing?




Some variation thereof the above, in principal, is hard to argue against but if it's handled by the private sector then it's likely to be about as effective and open to abuse as Thatcher's YTS initiative was - which was interestingly partly a response to the 1981 riots - and if it's funded by the taxpayer then it's a little self-defeating as it's probably just cheaper to give them the dole.

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


Joined: 14/10/02
Posts: 5196
Loc: East London
Re: Riots In London new [Re: Frisonic]
      #933955 - 12/08/11 06:38 PM
Quote Frisonic:

When I was on the scrap heap of the uneducated in the early 80s there were all kinds of 'non jobs' on offer through the Manpower Services Commission. I took one myself rather than claim dole. Actually it was brilliant. I was working three days a week for the Wandsworth Nature Conservation Unit, which was run by a bearded Canadian entomologist hippy. But a serious boffin with it. We spent the winter going around every public open space in the borough recording species of birds and abundance thereof, and the summer collecting bugs with a sweepnet and a pooter, to be identified under a microscope in the afternoons. The pay was rock bottom. It was only for a year. I felt considerably less on the scrap heap at the end of it.

It had been collegial, we had managed to convince ourselves that what we were doing was worthwhile (in truth the world would hardly have stopped turning if we hadn't bothered). Most importantly it got me back into the habit of working. I could say it helped those within the unit to develop a greater investment in their local community/environment but none of us had anything less to begin with. The scheme seemed to attract couth, responsible people. They were all conspicuously white and seemed rather middle class though...

In retrospect it was a very cheap and effective solution for the government of the day, far cheaper than this talk of national service. But we were volunteers.




Well that would have got a like if there was a like... I was getting to the point were Soylent Green and Rollerball seemed a good idea... maybe both, of course both, how else... talk about a dog eat dog world... and what a rotten world that would be

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Folderol



Joined: 15/11/08
Posts: 3816
Loc: Rochester, UK
Re: Riots In London new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #934230 - 14/08/11 05:23 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

I find it deeply ironic that these "have nots" are organising themselves with their iPhones and Blackberries.



Strange you should mention that. I understand none of the meeja have

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necromunger



Joined: 10/03/06
Posts: 960
Re: Riots In London new [Re: Folderol]
      #934234 - 14/08/11 06:04 PM
the police should just get some of these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nug5FZgxuk


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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 5649
Loc: Buntingford, Herts
Re: Riots In London new [Re: necromunger]
      #934237 - 14/08/11 06:44 PM
Quote necromunger:

the police should just get some of these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nug5FZgxuk




Is the nice man in the uniform coming with your medication shortly?


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Riots In London new [Re: jellyjim]
      #934250 - 14/08/11 08:06 PM
My Mrs is a maths teacher. She does tutoring mostly but also teaches at a local tertiary college running a variety of different classes aimed at the disadvantaged round here.

Several of the classes she runs are for those kids who spent most of their time in school mitching off, doing f'ck all and if they DID attend school, just caused trouble while they were there, disrupting classes, winding up impotent teachers who could do nothing and so on. They had the same opportunities as the other kids and they p!ssed it against the wall.

Well, they left with f'ck all as well and now they're being given a second chance to retake and maybe get a few GCSEs and maybe stand a better job of getting a job. Furthermore, they're being paid (by the taxpayer) to attend my wife's (and others') classes. And what are they doing?

Exactly the bloody same!

Mitching off and if they DO attend, they sprawl there in their desks, legs akimbo in their hoodies and their baggy jeans half way down their arse and brand new, unlaced Reeboks and full of 'attitude', texting their mates or listening to MP3s on earbuds and generally causing trouble, doing f'ck all, never doing any homework assignments and often not even bothering to turn up for the exam (which they'd fail anyway). They actually think it's cool to be ignorant!

And when my Mrs lost her rag with them once, SHE was the one who was reprimanded after a student complained.

You can't help people who won't help themselves and when 'the system' is so arse backwards that everyone has to tread on eggshells for fear of offending these idiots!

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narcoman
active member


Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 8519
Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #934253 - 14/08/11 08:28 PM
Well - it's not about offending the idiots - it's about taking responsibility for creating those idiots in the first place. Don't worry - I don't have altruistic reasons for sorting this. I want it sorting cuz I don't want those kind of people in the world..... the solution isn't to cope afterwards. The solution is not to create them in the first place.


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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #934255 - 14/08/11 09:03 PM
Quote narcoman:

The solution is not to create them in the first place.



Bit late for that now, Shirley!

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narcoman
active member


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Re: Riots In London new [Re: hollowsun]
      #934258 - 14/08/11 09:39 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Quote narcoman:

The solution is not to create them in the first place.



Bit late for that now, Shirley!




It's not too late to stop it getting worse or improve things for the next lot.


And don't call me shirley (I watch old movies too )


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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 5649
Loc: Buntingford, Herts
Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #934260 - 14/08/11 09:57 PM
Quote narcoman:

Quote hollowsun:

Quote narcoman:

The solution is not to create them in the first place.



Bit late for that now, Shirley!




It's not too late to stop it getting worse or improve things for the next lot.


And don't call me shirley (I watch old movies too )




Over under!

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Google less; read more!


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
Posts: 4627
Loc: The Orient, East London
Re: Riots In London new [Re: RegressiveRock]
      #934262 - 14/08/11 10:05 PM
Quote RegressiveRock:

Quote narcoman:

Quote hollowsun:

Quote narcoman:

The solution is not to create them in the first place.



Bit late for that now, Shirley!




It's not too late to stop it getting worse or improve things for the next lot.


And don't call me shirley (I watch old movies too )




Over under!





What's our vector, Victor?

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


Joined: 14/10/02
Posts: 5196
Loc: East London
Re: Riots In London new [Re: caveman82]
      #934264 - 14/08/11 10:30 PM
I'm sorry I don't do impersonations. but here is a picture of a five pound note

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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #934267 - 14/08/11 10:35 PM
Quote narcoman:

I watch old movies too



That's an old movie? Well I never.

My butler hired it for me only the other day (the special VHS edition) and I assumed it was in the hit parade or something.

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


Joined: 14/10/02
Posts: 5196
Loc: East London
Re: Riots In London new [Re: narcoman]
      #934268 - 14/08/11 10:35 PM
Quote narcoman:

The solution is not to create them in the first place.




Yes... What exactly are Gooleys again - Well there you go, time to get ones Robe, Beads and Sandals (Sod the socks when its hot)

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


Joined: 14/10/02
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Re: Riots In London new [Re: hollowsun]
      #934270 - 14/08/11 10:41 PM
Quote hollowsun:

Quote narcoman:

I watch old movies too



That's an old movie? Well I never.

My butler hired it for me only the other day (the special VHS edition) and I assumed it was in the hit parade or something.




We see that you liked that movie, other people who liked that movie also liked the following

THE FIVE MINUTE VERSION OF FORBIDDEN PLANET

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyRDxpqs-g8

Want to know More?

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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 5649
Loc: Buntingford, Herts
Re: Riots In London new [Re: DragonLogos]
      #934272 - 14/08/11 10:49 PM
Quote DragonLogos:

Quote hollowsun:

Quote narcoman:

I watch old movies too



That's an old movie? Well I never.

My butler hired it for me only the other day (the special VHS edition) and I assumed it was in the hit parade or something.




We see that you liked that movie, other people who liked that movie also liked the following

THE FIVE MINUTE VERSION OF FORBIDDEN PLANET

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyRDxpqs-g8

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Can I have the last five minutes of my life back, please?

Reg

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


Joined: 14/10/02
Posts: 5196
Loc: East London
Re: Riots In London new [Re: RegressiveRock]
      #934275 - 14/08/11 11:03 PM
NO... it is gone, say goodbye - if it makes you appey play If I could turn back Time - but it will do no good, whats done is done, you must for your own good learn to live with this - but are you sure it was five minutes, perhaps not - no matter, the finger is not going back and that is that, no money back no guarantees

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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 5649
Loc: Buntingford, Herts
Re: Riots In London new [Re: DragonLogos]
      #934277 - 14/08/11 11:09 PM
Quote DragonLogos:

NO... it is gone, say goodbye - if it makes you appey play If I could turn back Time - but it will do no good, whats done is done, you must for your own good learn to live with this - but are you sure it was five minutes, perhaps not - no matter, the finger is not going back and that is that, no money back no guarantees




Ah! I see... a former gear salesman then.

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


Joined: 14/10/02
Posts: 5196
Loc: East London
Re: Riots In London new [Re: RegressiveRock]
      #934280 - 14/08/11 11:18 PM
Yes there are gears, we have a box full of them... some go forward, some go back - but if you ask what is in the car, its four seats and a steering wheel

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RegressiveRock
Just half a pint of cherryade for me


Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 5649
Loc: Buntingford, Herts
Re: Riots In London new [Re: DragonLogos]
      #934282 - 14/08/11 11:23 PM
Quote DragonLogos:

Yes there are gears, we have a box full of them... some go forward, some go back - but if you ask what is in the car, its four seats and a steering wheel




Monsters from the id!

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hollowsun



Joined: 20/01/05
Posts: 5582
Loc: Cowbridge, South Wales
Re: Riots In London new [Re: DragonLogos]
      #934295 - 15/08/11 03:42 AM
Quote DragonLogos:

We see that you liked that movie, other people who liked that movie also liked the following

THE FIVE MINUTE VERSION OF FORBIDDEN PLANET



That's just sacrilege and an abomination.

I regularly commission the screening of that fine filum here at the HS Towers cinema if only to bask in the wondrousness of the innovative 'electronic tonalities' created by the The Barrons - way ahead of their time.

But I can see the association between 'Airplane' and this, what with Leslie Nielsen and all that. Most amusing. Even my man servant had a wry chuckle as he prepared my pyjamas!

But Shirley - you can't be serious.

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DragonLogos
Above us only Sky


Joined: 14/10/02
Posts: 5196
Loc: East London
Re: Riots In London new [Re: hollowsun]
      #936929 - 27/08/11 12:07 AM
In many ways perhaps the parents of the Beep Tone

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