A lot of music we have is highly polished and really impressive, productionwise.

But when the punk movement came along, the young 'uns were sort of bored out their minds with the same formulaic stuff over and over again. Usually sung by some superstar who wanted a King's Ransom in ticket prices, to be able to see them at a concert. Then along came punk, as it happens during a 'recession' a time with lack of hope and future especially for younger people, not the index link pensioned baby boomer boomers who can afford a £50+ ticket for a concert.

When punk came along, I remember Led Zep (and I adored them) breezin in form LA and asking £25 a ticket, when dole was about £20. Or We had the likes of Elvis Costello, the Buzzcocks, Sex Pistols of course for a few quid! Singing about things we could relate to. I remember seeing Elvis Costello, Wreckless Eric and X-Ray Specs on the same bill £2!!!!!! when up the road some top line act was wanting £30, no contest. Saw the Ian Drurie for a fiver, Magazine and the Drones, £3 (ok yes we have inflation to take into account) but more to the point, the music was oozing with vitality, energy to the nth degree, singing about anything but boy meets girl, boy meets boy, girl meets girl, and girl meets boy - is that the best we can do?

yes I suppose there is Rap, that talks about other things, but outside of that, what is there that has cutting lyrics delivered with a punch and passion

Is it the case that hard times gives rise to hard edged music, if so bring it on!

Be careful what you wish for.

There was a lot of great music and what eventually became great music but there was also a lot I wouldn't want to hear the modern equivalent of.

I was more forgiving at the time, spirit of youthful experimentation maybe. Having the benefit of hindsight and UK gold tv I realise much of it was badly polished turds.

My lot listen to everything, old and new. I think this is a great time for music. As always the modern classics will survive and the dross will be forgotten, just like... whatsisname... it's on the tip of my... oh, well.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

There's plenty of hard edged music about - lots of kids wanting to get there face melted off at Skrillex gigs, full to their eyeballs on designer drugs and potato liquor . If its just a lot of noise to you, well...

We have already had London etc smashed up - so plenty of angry people about - and I dont think they listen to the Clash.

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Way past time for me. It's what music needs every now and then and something the record companies always panic over, they like to keep it safe. Your probably putting some people off by saying "punk" as they will associate that with bad musicianship, but I feel you just mean a musical revolution. We haven't haven't had one for ages. Punk, disco, even hip-hop were all '70's products, reggae peaked in the late 70's early 80's, metal was around in the 70's. The 80's saw the rise of synth based music and then? For me nothing has changed since except the technology, new gear means new sounds and to the punter that might mean new "genres" when nothing has really changed.

Punk was the last BIG upset, before there was the Beatles, Stones and I think it's fair to include Hendrix, before that Rock 'n' Roll itself, BeBop, Swing....

So I think we have a very stagnant music industry where not much has changed except the recording gear for decades! I have been waiting for the next big upset like punk for years. Can't see it happening soon, hope I'm wrong. I also realise I'm probably too old for it and will most likely hate it whatever form it takes, but you never know, I'm open minded.

One thing's for sure - it's not dub step! I hope.........

But did punk really 'happen' at all ?

Chapter fourteen of 'Black Vinyl White Powder' by Simon Napier-Bell, 'the greatest ever book about written about English Pop...' is called 'Pure scam pure sham' and covers the punk era :

p.197 : 'Mostly, punk was just a useful label for guitar groups with little technique but loads of attitude'

p.200 : 'The biggest guitar group to emerge during the punk era had nothing at all to do with punk either musically or philosophically.' - Dire Straits.

pp 200-201 : 'During the era of the Sex Pistols, genuine punk music hardly appeared in the charts at all....Status Quo had more chart records than any punk band could ever dream of. Other big selling British artists were Rod Stewart, Showaddywaddy, Hot Chocolate, Kate Bush and the Wurzels. The biggest songs were : 'Save Your Kisses for Me', 'Sailing','Don't cry for me Argentina', 'Mull of Kintyre', 'Wuthering Heights' and I am a Cider Drinker'. Moreover, from 1977 onwards, the world was being swept with disco mania.

So where was punk ?

Sociologists have written books about the period, the influence of punk groups and the way they swayed musical taste, but the charts belie their claims. From 1963 to 1966 the Beatles had nine No. 1 records and every other record in the charts echoed their sound and style. From 1976 to 1979, the peak years of punk, the Sex Pistols only made the Top Ten on four occasions and throughout the period the sound of current pop had little to do with them.'

These days, there is no Top Of The Pops for parents to tut tut at, and that may be because the very desire to have one's parents tut has been removed. In the 21st century, boys can wear make up, bands can be mutli-ethnic, words can even be mumbled, and rightly, no-one bats an eyelid. The changes in the cultural mindset that allowed these examples to become acceptable, even common place, were always accompanied by a soundtrack that championed such challenges to established norms and behaviours.

Punk reflected the antagonism between two generations: the generation that remembered post-war austerity, and the younger generation who didn't. I can't see such antagonism between today's generations. The kids listening to Skrillex were probably driven to primary school by parents playing Prodigy CDs. I teach kids how to play AC/DC songs, the same kids who go to Green Day gigs with their parents. That said, we are possibly living thru the biggest music revolution of them all. But it's not the musical forms that are changing, it's the formats by which the music is disseminated.

So the future of music, in our post civil/womens/gay rights society is ... well I don't know really, but I do know it will be streamed to a micro chip size device which will be implanted just behind your ear at birth. If you agree to the lifetime subcription that is.

(What .. new-borns can't sign subsciption contracts. Yes they can, no one in history has read the itunes one ... just drool here and your done)

Quote fletcher:

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Punk was the last BIG upset, before there was the Beatles, Stones and I think it's fair to include Hendrix, before that Rock 'n' Roll itself, BeBop, Swing....

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boolarks!! ....

Punk? Punk was a teeny blip compared to rave culture or the acid house takeover. A mere blot on the landscape next to working class mash ups in Ibiza. Punk? It was important, but it was short; the Sex Pistols impact on the press was a whole decimal point short of brothers Gallagher (yeuch!!) during the 90s . The baggy movement in the late 80s/early 90s latest a lot longer, sold a lot more records and absolutely kick started a whole generation of bandsmen. It even brought us the dreaded brit-pop movement later.... Then the drum n bass scene of the late 90s? Again, much bigger than punk, inspiring huge club events and a scene that, as punk did before, evolved into a corporate whore of crap sold by white middle class gentlemen (as all scenes eventually do).

So what about revolutionary then? Punk was a lie sold to us by the later generation of NME nostalgics. It's social impact was minimal. That which it sought to upset were just the older generation - an easy target - and a target that on the whole readily accepted punk for what it was.... teen angst. Punk certainly gave us a blueprint for rebellion - but no more so than any prior or post musical movement has. A sign of the times and great for bringing us bands like the Clash or the Stranglers (mor epub rock but they rode along) or David Vanian or Siouxsie Sioux (every one of which eventually became the sell out they claimed to stand against... well apart from Strummer perhaps!!).... but no more a sign of the times than later "rebels"...

Quote fletcher:

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So I think we have a very stagnant music industry where not much has changed except the recording gear for decades! I have been waiting for the next big upset like punk for years.

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The music biz is stagnant. It's fiscally moribund - but there are more interesting things happening in more scenes all over the world than at ANY other time.

Dubstep? It had it's rebellious phase many years ago but at one time it most certainly WAS the only thing to be blasting out of he disenfranchised youths slag-mobile.

Quote fletcher:

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Can't see it happening soon, hope I'm wrong. I also realise I'm probably too old for it and will most likely hate it whatever form it takes, but you never know, I'm open minded.

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And therein lies the root of your thoughts!!! You resigned yourself to it!! .... music scenes are so diverse these days as to not have one overriding huge scene (dubstep was the nearest - but that's done). There's a lot out there - but you have to open yourself to any new forms musical naivety, youth and vigour. It ain't there to exercise experienced ears; it's there to stimulate it's own age group but surely , even as older types, we can all recognise them.

I suspect we may be in danger of missing the point. If punk was worthwhile on any level, or whether it actually happened at all, both valid and unresolved questions it would seem, it was not anything that can be measured solely in record sales.

The mid '70s where a cultural desert in my memory where mega-bands would descend in individual helicopters, play four hours of self obsessed nonsense then lock themselves into the cellars of their stately homes to play with their tigers.

When punk happened Northern Ireland was a brutal and brutalising place. For the first time we could mingle with kindred spirits anonymously, protected from religious identity by nicknames and masks of leather, metal and hair dye.

Bands, fanzines, cassette recordings appeared and vanished like pop up shops on The Apprentice leaving not a ripple on the national sales charts but changing lives forever.

The principle of "I've got something to say and it's just as important as anything that dickhead has to say" was not new and has been repeated since. It was ours, not second hand American, not even second hand English which was new to us.

I'm quite proud of what we got up to at the time, specially compared to the "feeding time at the special needs clinic" scenario that is modern POP culture and when I die it will be gone and forgotten.

Such is life.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Some very valid points already made. I often remember 'punk' as more of a laxative than anything else. And I was there, aged 16 at the time... It certainly cleared the air for many things that subsequently came along! My understanding of what the OP is saying is something like 'what is this current state of fiscal turmoil and uncertainty going to produce culturally'? Which is a question that has also been on my mind. So far the only evidence that it has created any serious anger from the youth demographic was last summers 'riots'. Which it seemed to me were more like opportunistic looting than what happened in Brixton and elsewhere in the early 80s (I was there too, writing songs and doing a little 'theatre' and music from the side lines - few were at it for direct personal gain - it was just plain angry youth).

I'm old. This isn't my fight. I am more likely to be regarded as the accused! But I'm also wondering, when are the kids going to kick back? Where's the passion? Where's the back bone? Where is the evidence that they give a s***? I'd be delighted if todays youth came back with good, fresh ideas offered in a peaceful way. But I'm not even seeing that. All I see is 'whatever'. Maybe its just because I'm old...

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Strictly project and just for fun

Labels are irrelevant, every musical style is driven by one thing..an overwhelming desire for expression, and on that level , yes I think I really would like to hear a bit more passion in chart music in particular, however unlikely. Dave

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My head hurts!

Quote Frisonic:

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I'm old. This isn't my fight. I am more likely to be regarded as the accused! But I'm also wondering, when are the kids going to kick back? Where's the passion? Where's the back bone? Where is the evidence that they give a s***? I'd be delighted if todays youth came back with good, fresh ideas offered in a peaceful way. But I'm not even seeing that. All I see is 'whatever'. Maybe its just because I'm old...

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Well said. Because my partner is a mature student we're seeing a lot of students nowadays. They're great kids but their focus is on the course and working their arses off to pay for it. In my time we were on the streets for Vietnam and anti-apartheid. (My God, did I just say "In my time"? I did! Thank God I never had any kids, or I'd really be sounding like my dad).

CC

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Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Lots of great points on here and interesting the divide between those who measure success by record sales and those who measure it by impact and function. Kind of like the original Punk/pomp rock divide. It's also worth remembering that many of those that fostered the rave scene came out of the punk scene. Been wondering myself if the current climate of austerity for poor would bring about some kind of political/emotion driven movement counter to the 'ohh yeah baby baby uh uh' shite we are currently being subject to. I remember Punk as being a breath of fresh air clearing out the pretentious,snobbery of the Rock world at the time and giving the Pop charts a kick up the back side at the same time. So much coming through the music business at the moment is overly sterile on both the subject matter and musical level. We need another breath of fresh air whilst there are still signs of life!

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www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm

Sorry, but I must disagree, punk made a much bigger impact than the rave scene. The rave scene made a bigger impact on the night clubs than any attitudes in the music scene. Punk changed attitudes, the charts had nothing to do with it. The actual "punk" thing was a blip but if you hadn't moved with it you were like a dinosaur. Reggae was a strange bed fellow of the Punk era, and of course Two-Tone and Ska. Rock against Racism was then as well, Hip-Hop started and Disco was happening. Lots of social change and cultural exchanges. I think it was all good, kind of an enema for society.

I agree with you the actual punk music wasn't around for long, but it was part of a greater change and a pivotal moment in music. It made a far bigger impact on me as a teenager than anything that has happened in my 19 year old sons life, and I didn't even like it - kept my mouth shut at the parties though!

Maybe I'm getting old but there again I do hear my son and his friends complaining about the music they have to put up with when they go out. I would say most of my young students are listening to much older music, but as they are aspiring musicians they might not be representative. But I still think there is no "scene" at the moment, and music needs it's scenery.

I think Narcoman may well have under-estimated the effect of punk. I would never have thought of being in a band if it hadn't been for Punk and the idea that anyone could do it - you didn't have to be an outstanding musician. Up until 1977 the people at school who were playing in bands were the people who would later become accomplished session musicians. After 1977 they were joined by a whole host of us oiks who wanted to say something but who didn't have the musical skills to know the difference between a major 7th and minor 7th. I think the music scene saw a big influx of musicians at that point who had seen the old rock and pop music become self indulgent.

It took a few years for these people to filter through but by the early '80's Radio 1 was playing mainly young bands owing at least something to punk rather than the old guard of the mid/late 70's. I distinctly remember being ill in bed for a few weeks in early '81 and being pleasantly surprised at how good the music on daytime Radio 1 actually was after not having listened to it for a few years.

Mind you, having later worked with some of the punk musicians, many of them said they just saw themselves as normal rock musicians who just happen to have been labelled as punks by journalists and record labels.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote fletcher:

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Rock against Racism

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A game changer. It changed hearts and minds. Did more to unite the United Kingdom than anything else I can think of throughout my lifetime (from my perspective including the Falklands debacle). Through its wider influence it undoubtably made a contribution to ending apartheid in South Africa. And it would never have happened had a few kids, many with more passion than talent, pointed in a certain direction by their Svengaliesque management, not had a brief moment at the heart of youth culture in 1977. Perhaps one of the finest examples in history of popular culture becoming an agent for change.

So given the inertia the developed world currently finds itself in "is it time for some new music?" seems a very pertinent question. I agree with fletcher in that all the 'bright young things' I know are exploring old music because they are failing to find much that captures their imagination in more contemporary offerings. But the ones I know are not music students. My theory is that we are all so wrapped up in the relentless advances of technology available to us today that we can't get our heads outside the packaging and use it properly. Its not just music or youth. Today the investment markets are having a moment equivalent to Beatlemania because Facebook is having its no doubt totally oversubscribed and over valued IPO. It probably doesn't make any sense but it does demonstrate that even the supposedly sage and savvy can't make head nor tail of their bread and butter these days.



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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote James Perrett:

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I think Narcoman may well have under-estimated the effect of punk. I would never have thought of being in a band if it hadn't been for Punk and the idea that anyone could do it - you didn't have to be an outstanding musician.

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The punk spirit formed the very basis of my career - so no, defo not underestimating what it did for MUSICIANS. But it had a very small social impact - it merely reflected the times rather than set them. Rave culture - as loathesome as I found it - set the tone for a who E'ed up generation.....

Quote James Perrett:

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Up until 1977 the people at school who were playing in bands were the people who would later become accomplished session musicians. After 1977 they were joined by a whole host of us oiks who wanted to say something but who didn't have the musical skills to know the difference between a major 7th and minor 7th. I think the music scene saw a big influx of musicians at that point who had seen the old rock and pop music become self indulgent.

It took a few years for these people to filter through but by the early '80's Radio 1 was playing mainly young bands owing at least something to punk rather than the old guard of the mid/late 70's. I distinctly remember being ill in bed for a few weeks in early '81 and being pleasantly surprised at how good the music on daytime Radio 1 actually was after not having listened to it for a few years.

Mind you, having later worked with some of the punk musicians, many of them said they just saw themselves as normal rock musicians who just happen to have been labelled as punks by journalists and record labels.

James.

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Having an influence of people as a player is nothing compared to it's wider audience impact. Punk, as close to my soul as it was, was a minority sport .... but a briefly loud one. I often used to hear in A&R the comment of "it's as if punk never happened".... well on a larger scale - it never did. A musically important movement - but a social one greatly exaggerated by my peers. Punk - loved it. Bored of it. Moved on.... although totally agree that it gave us something else to listen to other than mid 70s rock shite!! ... the salient point is this; punk did it's job but so have many other movements. One shouldn't confuse nostalgia with happenings....

Perhaps the kids who are dissatisfied with modern music are the same as those of us who went out as youngsters and formed our own thing... good for them. Getting people to listen, however, is another game!

You want a new punk? It's here - but it aint music. You aint gonna like the answer......

One other thought - is modern teenage culture as factionalised as it was in the late 70's? Denim clad heavy metallers would never mix with punks who, in turn, would never mix with the soul boys in jumpers and baggy trousers. Then came the mods...

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

In today's Guardian...

Quote:

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I Feel Love changed everything.

This record is unquestionably one of the most important records in the history of music as we know it today.

It was released in 1977, which is a year that's supposed to be so important for punk, but along with Kraftwerk, it was this record that really changed everything.

The idea that dance music is about funk and about the groove was stripped away, and instead came something very robotic, this machine-like sound.

For a whole generation – for bands like the Human League – it was so important, and its influence on house music and techno and everything else that followed is immense."

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- Hot Chip's Joe Goddard

Quote:

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For me, there is no doubt that I Feel Love had a dramatic effect on modern music. It was certainly a key influence on my work with Duran Duran.

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- Nick Rhodes

Quote James Perrett:

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One other thought - is modern teenage culture as factionalised as it was in the late 70's? Denim clad heavy metallers would never mix with punks who, in turn, would never mix with the soul boys in jumpers and baggy trousers. Then came the mods...

James.

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Its an interesting thought James. I have to be honest and admit I haven't got a clue. I stopped looking when baggy assed jeans officially became a good idea. But seriously, quite a few dumped the denim for the safety pins, did they not? Paul Weller undeniably managed to join up the dots between bin liners and mohair. And as has been pointed out, Donna Summer, rest her soul, stirred everyone's juices (but what was that rubbish about her decoupling groove from dance music)?

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Strictly project and just for fun

For me the seminal moment for punk was a classic 30 seconds on-stage by Pete Shelley of the Buzzcocks. Having sawn of the top of his guitar so that he could anchor his strumming hand more easily to play individual notes, he proceeded to bellow on stage: "Tricky guitar solo" and then played a series of notes that became one progressiing f*ck up from start to finish.

Normally, as a musician, I have a lot of sympathy for the odd on-stage mishap, (I've had enough of my own, particularly (looking at some old photos), in the wardrobe department), but this one always has me howling with laughter. What is more, I am someone who bought punk records on the back of adverts in magazines as a boy. The whole incident says something quite profound about the genre.

The truth about punk is that the history of its social importance has been written by people are, after all, the kind of music aficianado who has to have been into every alternative trend as it was happening. Therefore, thier view of the world is likely to be, perhaps, a little one-sided.

Reg

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Google less; read more!

Quote narcoman:

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You want a new punk? It's here - but it aint music.

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I'm not sure we'd agree what it is but I certainly agree about what it isn't.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

it's very interesting that every poster has picked what I imagine they thought of as the most important thing in the world when they were 16 - be it punk, rave culture, brit pop (for me it was british indy music (or what the US would call "new wave")- depeche, the cure, sisters of mercy etc etc) - and has then said there is nothing now that's replaced it.

Of course we don't know what's replacing our countries 16 year olds fasination - cause we're all not 16! ....I am coming up to 40 now, and have kids who are 12 and 6 - so maybe in 4 years time I'll find out what is "the thing" for 16 year olds....but at the moment my kids listen to linkin park, Nirvana, some depeche - cause thats what they hear round my house!

there will be something....it'll be in a format we don't quite get and certainly won't like - it'll be as far away from punk/new wave etc as it can be, cause thats what I like, and what would be the point of rebelling against me if you just like what i like??


and of course the record companies won;t have it - otherwise it would be sold out before it started!


and it'll be in a format that's related to mobile/gaming technology - cause everyone under the age of 25 has a mobile device! - as we all had record players.

(interestingly a person recently at a training day asked everyone to tell him the time....all the over 30's looked at their wrist - the under 30's went for their phone in their pocket!)

viva the revolution - in whatever format it comes in!!

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http://soundcloud.com/seaapes

Quote Wease:

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it's very interesting that every poster has picked what I imagine they thought of as the most important thing in the world when they were 16 - be it punk, rave culture, brit pop (for me it was british indy music (or what the US would call "new wave")- depeche, the cure, sisters of mercy etc etc) - and has then said there is nothing now that's replaced it.

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look again.





Next focus of rebellion won't be a games console or a game, it'll be an abacus.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Be careful what you wish for

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I'll take my chances, do you think the dross includes Ian Drury, Elvis Costello, Magazine, Souxie and the Banshees et al? if that was dross then where can i find it's equivalent today?

Quote Gone To Lunch:

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But did punk really 'happen' at all ?

Sociologists have written books about ......blah de blah

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Gimme a break, WTF do sociologists know except stating the bleed*n obvious, they are pathological neophiles and got an opinion on everything but an answer for nothing, intellectually bereft and functionally inert!

Quote turbodave:

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Labels are irrelevant, every musical style is driven by one thing..an overwhelming desire for expression, and on that level , yes I think I really would like to hear a bit more passion in chart music in particular, however unlikely. Dave

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Yes that is sort of my point. I am using Punk as a label to identify a period in musical rather than a definition of a particular kind of music. I just think, who today is making sonegs mike Oliver's Army, a tune that was incredibly popular, it was a good pop tune, but with profound lyrics commenting on issues of the day instead of the overwhelming occurrence of saccarin boy meets girl meets boy stuff. Nothing wrong with but as they say "For crying out loud change the record!" Surely there is more to sing about than petty frolickings behind the crack house

Quote Wease:

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(interestingly a person recently at a training day asked everyone to tell him the time....all the over 30's looked at their wrist - the under 30's went for their phone in their pocket!)

viva the revolution - in whatever format it comes in!!

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I am way past 30, otherwise how could I remember punk - but...I don't have a watch and couldn't give a hoot what time it is most the time. But when I want to know, there's always some young thing aching to flash his moby, so i get told the time without any effort on my part and that suits me - Economy of Effort I call it

Quote OneWorld:

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Quote shufflebeat:

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Be careful what you wish for

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I'll take my chances, do you think the dross includes Ian Drury, Elvis Costello, Magazine, Souxie and the Banshees et al? if that was dross then where can i find it's equivalent today?

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No, I think those would count as the 'modern classics' of the time. His name was Ian Dury, BTW.

Quote OneWorld:

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Quote Gone To Lunch:

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But did punk really 'happen' at all ?

Sociologists have written books about ......blah de blah

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Gimme a break, WTF do sociologists know except stating the bleed*n obvious, they are pathological neophiles and got an opinion on everything but an answer for nothing, intellectually bereft and functionally inert!

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Well, that's that sorted then.

Quote OneWorld:

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Quote turbodave:

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Labels are irrelevant, every musical style is driven by one thing..an overwhelming desire for expression, and on that level , yes I think I really would like to hear a bit more passion in chart music in particular, however unlikely. Dave

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Yes that is sort of my point. I am using Punk as a label to identify a period in musical rather than a definition of a particular kind of music. I just think, who today is making sonegs mike Oliver's Army, a tune that was incredibly popular, it was a good pop tune, but with profound lyrics commenting on issues of the day instead of the overwhelming occurrence of saccarin boy meets girl meets boy stuff. Nothing wrong with but as they say "For crying out loud change the record!" Surely there is more to sing about than petty frolickings behind the crack house

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Watch TOTP 1970s. There was just as much scmaltzy crap around then as now.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

I don't think we'll ever see another revolution, certainly not one like punk. Punk probably got absorbed into the system and put on postcards and t-shirts as quickly as it emerged, but there just seems to be a "live and let live" attitude to music these days. Kids went down the 100 Club to work off their frustrations with bands singing about things which were relevant to them, and today, in another bad economic climate, kids just want to be entertained.

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Do you need real drum tracks? http://www.drumtracksdirect.co.uk/

This idea that there was as much tat around in the old days is definitely true, but I feel that the crests are lower and the troughs less deep than they were...in other words, there is less passion and far more bland song writing and bland production...at least the old [ ****** ] was memorable!

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My head hurts!

Quote turbodave:

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This idea that there was as much tat around in the old days is definitely true, but I feel that the crests are lower and the troughs less deep than they were...in other words, there is less passion and far more bland song writing and bland production...at least the old [ ****** ] was memorable!

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only in the pop world. Check out the underground!!! Red Fang doing it for me!!

Quote narcoman:

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Quote turbodave:

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This idea that there was as much tat around in the old days is definitely true, but I feel that the crests are lower and the troughs less deep than they were...in other words, there is less passion and far more bland song writing and bland production...at least the old [ ****** ] was memorable!

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only in the pop world. Check out the underground!!! Red Fang doing it for me!!

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I don't care about the music, just the name Red Fang is all I need to know! .....Oh and yeah, it was a reference to pop pap, certainly not any of the weird and wonderful elsewhere.

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My head hurts!

BBC has Punk Britannia coming up.

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-05-10/anarchy-in-white-city-bbc-to-bro adcast-punk-britannia-season

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

When opposites collide anything can happen.
I have messed about with what I call Jazz Punk. I do 'it' on piano. The problem is other jazzers. For all the skill and improv, jazzers wont let their hair down. What happened to jazz? So, for now, I'm on my own on that one.
One of these days I'll post an mp3. Dont hold your breath.

Drum n Bass is another great partner for jazz musicians. I surprised more didnt happen there. 'History Repeating' with Shirley Bassey and Propellerheads showed how it might be done. Very cool!
I'm guessing the next big pop acts will not be western - new economies are emerging in Asia. The Doobie Comrads from Beijing perhaps.

Edited by Airfix (21/05/12 09:54 AM)

Quote Richie Royale:

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BBC has Punk Britannia coming up.

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-05-10/anarchy-in-white-city-bbc-to-bro adcast-punk-britannia-season

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Oh dear.

They'll do a good programme about what it looked like but suspect it'll miss the point. If it was directed and edited by John Cooper Clarke it might show some insight. The vid of Shame (sic) 69 doesn't bode well.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

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Drum n Bass is another great partner for jazz musicians. I surprised more didnt happen there.

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Herbie Hancock did a little on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future2Future

LTJ Bukem and Roni size exploited the jazzy side of things, though I expect most Jazz heads would argue it wasn't Jazz.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

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When opposites collide anything can happen.
I have messed about with what I call Jazz Punk. I do 'it' on piano. The problem is other jazzers. For all the skill and improv, jazzers wont let their hair down. What happened to jazz? So, for now, I'm on my own on that one.
One of these days I'll post an mp3. Dont hold your breath.

Drum n Bass is another great partner for jazz musicians. I surprised more didnt happen there. 'History Repeating' with Shirley Bassey and Propellerheads showed how it might be done. Very cool!
I'm guessing the next big pop acts will not be western - new economies are emerging in Asia. The Doobie Comrads from Beijing perhaps.

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I totally agree about the likelihood of Asia or the Far East being the birthplace of the next thing fresh and distinctive enough for the history books. It might not necessarily be as sour and angry as what the West has produced though!

As far as your straight laced jazzers are concerned take heart from Thelonious Monk, arguably the most original jazzer of his generation (which WAS the jazz generation). He was so far out there but have you noticed all his quartets tended to comprise talented kids that were young enough to be his children? Of course he did play with his contemporaries but mostly he found it easier to spot new talent and point it in his direction than have endless arguments with his peers about how the music should sound. Result: Nobody else ever sounded quite like Monk and no self respecting jazz music collection would be complete without including some of his music. IMO all musical, even all art genres suffer from a little understood tendency for 'artists' to numb themselves with a deeply conservative mind set. Lack of originality combined with fear of ridicule leading to an aversion to risk. They then form tribal alliances and try to disguise their own inadequacies by deriding anybody who dares to try something that goes against the current rules. Not everybody. Not all the time. But there is far too much of that.

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Strictly project and just for fun

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the likelihood of Asia or the Far East being the birthplace of the next thing fresh and distinctive enough for the history books.

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Should have included Middle East (which might be a bit more edgy)!

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Strictly project and just for fun

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Quote OneWorld:

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Quote shufflebeat:

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Be careful what you wish for

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I'll take my chances, do you think the dross includes Ian Drury, Elvis Costello, Magazine, Souxie and the Banshees et al? if that was dross then where can i find it's equivalent today?

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No, I think those would count as the 'modern classics' of the time. His name was Ian Dury, BTW.

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But did punk really 'happen' at all ?

Sociologists have written books about ......blah de blah

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Gimme a break, WTF do sociologists know except stating the bleed*n obvious, they are pathological neophiles and got an opinion on everything but an answer for nothing, intellectually bereft and functionally inert!

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Well, that's that sorted then.

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Labels are irrelevant, every musical style is driven by one thing..an overwhelming desire for expression, and on that level , yes I think I really would like to hear a bit more passion in chart music in particular, however unlikely. Dave

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Yes that is sort of my point. I am using Punk as a label to identify a period in musical rather than a definition of a particular kind of music. I just think, who today is making sonegs mike Oliver's Army, a tune that was incredibly popular, it was a good pop tune, but with profound lyrics commenting on issues of the day instead of the overwhelming occurrence of saccarin boy meets girl meets boy stuff. Nothing wrong with but as they say "For crying out loud change the record!" Surely there is more to sing about than petty frolickings behind the crack house

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Watch TOTP 1970s. There was just as much scmaltzy crap around then as now.

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Shuffty, you miss the point mate. As is often the case whe someone refers back to another time, and in this case uses music to exemplify the point. It is assumed people are making a global statement - as if there is a one-to-one mapping, eg because Punk saw the likes of Elvis Costello, then everryone that was even remotely concerned with Punk was equally briliiant, nope, where did I say that? And neither is it the case that just because at the moment there is a smothering tsunami of the highly polished love-pop genre, that is not to say all contemporary music is the same - no not at all.

Yes of course there was some tripe about in those days, some of it so bad I would rather stick pins in my eyes than have to suffer 3 minutes of excrutiatingly acute sonic torture - thanks but no thanks. But I am not talking about, this is not so much a comparison between music then and now, but the rationale, the inspiration behind the music that surfaced at particular times in history. More the job of a musicologist than a musician I suppose.

The point I was making,or more to the point pondering - "is it the case that bad times produce good music" and the last time there was a radical shift in the music that popped out the sausage machine and an undercurrent of more raw music with lyrics that reflected people's concerns away from the usual preponderance of the stock in trade boy-meets-girl-meets boy (and all the other genetic permutations concerned with coupling)

And that's not to say all love songs are bobbins, no not all.

Things we equally saccarine and mundane in the 60's and along came the Beatles and Stones and tore up the rule book, yes they sang love-pop too, but also more industrial stuff too. What chance would Bob Dylan have today banging about "With God on Our Side" and the likes, or Blowing in the Wind? and so many many other legendary tunes he did.

Other popsters who were equally profound - Marvin Gaye (was he Gay?) the legendary Stevie Wonder, Michael Jackson, Pink Floyd, John Martyn, Donovan, Tom Waites, Frank Zappa. Do we have a modern day equivalent? or is everyone just singing about - "Wow you Itch my Scratch Babe?"

So the question I pose, like in the Great Depression, do we need hard time to result in profound music? "Summertime" is th emost covered song in the world, and yet it is essentially an R&B song? - the original R&B of course. ANd as someone once said "Why does the Devil have all the Best Tunes?"

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Shuffty, you miss the point mate.

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Wouldn't be the first time and probably won't be the last.

I get your drift and it's a valid ponderance.

You began with a question that seemed to misunderstand what I was saying so I thought that deserved clarification. So I clarified.

The music you referred to was original, based on universal and timeless musical and lyrical themes or abstract enough to give that impression, well constructed/recorded and well timed. The same could be said for Abba, though. As with the gorgeous Swedes it's the fact that people connected with it that made it mainstream for a short time, until the 'me too' crowd decided to copy the template, unfortunately 'too late' was the cry.

If I understand things correctly Summertime was a nice show tune in the public mind (think 'Phantom of the Opera, eugh!) until Billie Holliday, knowing GG's love and understanding of black culture and music gave it a makeover, it made it's way into the Jazz repertoire given added and deserved gravity and pathos in the process.

There is always great music. It's not always recognised until the dross has leaked away.

I don't really disagree with anything you say, but in answer to your ponderance I feel it's probably already happening but not in the realm of music. It may be some time before the pop charts recover from Simon C.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

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Punk? Punk was a teeny blip compared to rave culture or the acid house takeover.

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I shall give you a hi-5 my man.
.. that and a purple ohm double dip.

I can't remember if it was a cataclysmic shift, a blip or a passing cloud. I do remember it was a fantastic time with loads of good bands spanning everything from what amounted to basic electric skiffle to full blown prog, phsychadelic, reggae, jazz, religious hymns and thrills to poke a party! Pub rock, Thames Delta R&B, George Melly was a favourite of the punk crowd down at Dingwalls on a friday night btw. As were the Ducks, er, (of course because on to the) BLOCKHEADS! ('scuse me) and then that was just London. There were the skids and the Buzzcocks and then all the Manchester bands, Orange Juice etc and then on out of it all the new rheumatics and the whole Bowie shift into the Warsaw trilogy with the Stooges influence and talking of the states the Tubes and Devo and not forgetting the SAHBs were still packing 'em in.

Nope, not much happening at all. But i do remember it was a bloody good laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nttiKcJVnWA

blue manga, smiley face 'double dip' was short lived too. Fun, no doubt, but not my style. I was not mad about disco either. But I will admit, in a good club 'Earth Wind and Fire' could make me want to dance. Irish folk music can do that to me too - no matter how hard I try, I tap my foot when I hear it.
It's all good!
Punk was never meant to survive!

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blue manga, smiley face 'double dip' was short lived too.

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Rave as it was as in Acid House and the raving scene was short lived - in large part due to the Criminal Justice bill which was passed by the Tory govt. almost specifically just to shut down the rave scene..

- and then all the music and the culture went back into the clubs - and became (many) other things ..

These many other things defined the 90s .. and can still easily be seen & heard today ..
Actually - if u go check out any line up / club night based around contemporary electronic urban/dance acts - the format, the spirit, everything is pretty much the same as the early raves ..

Yes Acid House died when the Criminal Justice bill was passed - but the shockwaves are still VERY strong. Much stronger than Punk's shockwaves (as in the generic music form)

In fact it could be argued that the musical ingenuity and energy of what was Acid House - has been far more creatively explosive and diverse than even the 60's - in the long haul.

That is not to say the music of the Acid House and everything which spawned from it (Breakz, DNB, Garage, Dubstep, Various House, IDM, alot of electro styles .. untold non generic musical expeditions) - was 'better' than the music of the 60's revolutions, of course not - only that the prominent and revered music of the 60's has not evolved in it's setting .. so much.

The journey of electronic / dance music since the Acid House has been huge and varied .. but guitar bands over the last couple of decades which perhaps emulate the bands of the 60's and 70's .. emulate .. well .. basically similar sounds / formula etc ..

So, with respect to musical revolutions and evolution over the last century - Acid House was *the most significant herald of change, evolution and new forms ..

Edited by blue manga (21/05/12 09:44 PM)

It's the 60s. First off, hammer all hippies! Good advice that! Lazy bums!

John Lennon and Sir Paul, of Beatles fame, embarrassingly, both wrote a song about Ireland. Both songs were banned in the UK. They must have been really bad. Too bad for radio!

All Punk was banned once - pretty much! Sir John Reid was sorry he ever got involved with the Sex Pistols - EMI dont you know. So what's new?
Rave - well you guys were better organised for a while - I'll give you that. So 'they' got you too with a CJ bill. Bad luck! You must have been too noisy.

I'm moving to Beijing. Going to find myself a music act and get rich.
I kid - in winter I believe the air is thick with smoke in Beijing and I have asthma.

The more I see those re-runs of TOTP from '77, the more I believe in progress!

It was far worse than I remember.

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OK Narcoman, I'll bite ...

What is the new punk that isn't music, and why won't I like it ?

(So far the only thing I routinely don't like is in fact music: dubstep to be precise).

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

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OK Narcoman, I'll bite ...

What is the new punk that isn't music, and why won't I like it ?

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it isn't music. It's whatever your parents don't like. And in 2012 it's rather more confrontational than punk ever was.... the teenager round here are all doing it; fekkin nightmare and I don't want to put in type what it is... but use your imagination...

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Of course we don't know what's replacing our countries 16 year olds fasination - cause we're all not 16! ....I am coming up to 40 now, and have kids who are 12 and 6 - so maybe in 4 years time I'll find out what is "the thing" for 16 year olds....but at the moment my kids listen to linkin park, Nirvana, some depeche - cause thats what they hear round my house!

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I remember some point in the mid 90's having a conversation with a couple of mates in regards to where music might go. At the time I was playing Scottish Techno, Gabba, Industrial Speedcore... well you get the idea, and between us we were trying to work out just what the hell our kids in the future might be able to listen too in order to rebel. Well I can't stand Dubstep so...

As for what's the next punk. I'd agree acid house was to some extent in regards to it was music that anyone could make with the bare minimum of kit, the releases would be would be driven by indies not majors before being sucked up into the whole corporate side of things only for the underground to thrive in the background leaving a legacy sound that still resonates today.

The problem that exists now in regards to ever seeing another explosive scene is the very thing that makes it simple also makes it hard.

Everyone has the kit and the majors are no longer in a position to swollow up the next big thing due to their own financial constraints and the likelyhood of it just not working out. If your willing to trawl through the many hundreds of releases that come out each week the's new styles and sub genres coming through all the time but due to the shear number of specilized scenes the just isn't the numbers in any given micro scene for them to explode into the big time.

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

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OK Narcoman, I'll bite ...

What is the new punk that isn't music, and why won't I like it ?

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it isn't music. It's whatever your parents don't like. And in 2012 it's rather more confrontational than punk ever was.... the teenager round here are all doing it; fekkin nightmare and I don't want to put in type what it is... but use your imagination...

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Is it the Duke of Edinburgh's award scheme? ......vile!

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My head hurts!

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Quote SecretSam:

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OK Narcoman, I'll bite ...

What is the new punk that isn't music, and why won't I like it ?

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it isn't music. It's whatever your parents don't like. And in 2012 it's rather more confrontational than punk ever was.... the teenager round here are all doing it; fekkin nightmare and I don't want to put in type what it is... but use your imagination...

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Its still too cryptic for me. What is it? Refusing to become obsessed with getting on the property ladder?


Ooooppps! Sorry, that was perhaps a little too subversive

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Strictly project and just for fun

Happy Slapping is the new Punk ?

Narcoman, that's a bit vague. Let me try to guess:

Does it involve abuse of domestic pets ? Reading celebrity magazines ? Petty thieving ? Robbing old ladies at knifepoint ?Saying "Chillax," when they haven't actually ever done any work ? Pretending to be cool when they can't even drive a car ? Talking with their mouths full ? Saying "Like," several times per sentence in the hope that you believe their mundane lives have thrown up experiences too extreme to describe precisely ? Trying to sound like Jamaicans, when actually they attend private schools in Highgate ? Convincing themselves that their generation invented drugs ? Trying to seem dangerous when they are five foot six and weight about nine stones ?

Look, everything about teenagers is irritating. It was irritating even when I was a teenager ... maybe especially then.

What could they possibly do to make it worse ?

My advice: lock up the little sods as soon as they turn 15, and let them out when they are 23. Everything else is just skirting around the problem.

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

... but back on topic:

I think what (some) punk and (some) dance music had in common is that they were an attempt to make music with its own terms of reference, for its own sake, for people who want to get (to coin a phrase) lost in it. The music was not simply show business, and not simply the result of a marketing strategy. Whatever the result sounds like, I think music made with this sort of intention (and a very basic level of competence) is worthy of some respect.

To my jaded ears, Skryllex' stuff sounds as though it was made by a commercial mind for use in advertising and bowling alleys, so I wouldn't see it as the same sort of thing IMAO*. I can hear that it is quite well produced, but so are the advertisements on TV, and I wouldn't watch those for fun or enlightenment.

So what is original in the for-its-own-sake tradition ? Gogol Bordello, anyone ? Flowjob ? Dunno ...






*In My Arrogant Opinion

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

For punk history devotees, new series "Punk Britannia" starts tonight at 9.00pm on BBC 4.

(...correction, 9.00pm Fridays repeated 11.30pm Sundays...)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00s81jw