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DaleSmith



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Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware
      #871729 - 30/10/10 08:08 PM
http://airusersblog.squarespace.com/home-page/2010/10/30/pro-tools-9-at-ae s-what-to-expect.html

its not gonna be cheap tho..






Edited by Forum Admin (08/11/10 07:03 PM)


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #871743 - 30/10/10 09:27 PM
hahahah! That'll be the day.


I love those "make it up blog" posts......


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Chaconne



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #871753 - 30/10/10 10:51 PM
Much ado about PT 9 apparently on its way at this coming AES, over at ** cough **

- could be rubbish, always entertaining reading if nothing else.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/pro-tools-hd-goes-native/542435-pro-tools-9 -coming-9.html

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DaleSmith



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #871759 - 30/10/10 11:09 PM
I read it on Ultimate Metal forum

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/production-tips/636231-pro-tools-withou t-digidesign-m-audio-interface.html

When I said it won't be cheap, I didn't see the price on the first link I posted. Apparently Avid have said they value the Pro Tools software in the region of $2500, so It'll be interesting to see whether they price it that high, or come down to Logic / Cubase territory..



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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #871774 - 31/10/10 01:21 AM
.... pretty much the amount of money I'd bet against it

Just wierdos talking crap. Of course it's rubbish.


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #871777 - 31/10/10 01:35 AM
I don't really see the point in making it non hardware compliant, I like the fact that its reliable and I don't really have to [ ****** ] with drivers to get things to work.

I'm not the only one either.

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Steve Hill
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #871787 - 31/10/10 07:08 AM
They won't do it for the same reason UAD won't.

There are no cracked copies, no pirates.

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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #871935 - 01/11/10 02:22 AM
Except that there are cracked copies of LE.... expanded to have the full track count of HD, minus the rest of the HD goodies.



But I know what you mean.

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Jack Ruston



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #871946 - 01/11/10 07:56 AM
That hacked thing is not functional. You couldn't actually use it for work. Not the same.

J

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Steve Hill
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #871949 - 01/11/10 08:20 AM
Anything without automatic plug-in delay compensation is unusable in a work context.

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The Elf
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #871993 - 01/11/10 10:23 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

Anything without automatic plug-in delay compensation is unusable in a work context.



It's nice to see someone else who understands this point. How anyone manages without it, short of throwing the PC through a window, is beyond me.

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Frank EleveldModerator



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #872002 - 01/11/10 10:37 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

Anything without automatic plug-in delay compensation is unusable in a work context.




Seconded!


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872011 - 01/11/10 10:50 AM
.... think that might be taking it a BIT too far!!

I used to get round it - back in Mix Cubed days - with the same plugin on each channel. Mind you - ITB mixing generally was oafish back then so it was more a pre-processing to a console.


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872058 - 01/11/10 12:59 PM
It's clunky, it's irritating, its more than a mild annoyance, but its hardly "unworkable"?

And it's only unworkable as far as ITB mixing is concerned, tracking, editing, overdubbing, it's fine.




NOT to say that it isn't a PITA, and I would like to see adc added to LE even if its some sort of restricted nonsense.

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Sam Inglis
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872248 - 02/11/10 10:27 AM
I'm not sure I understand why everyone has recently taken to saying that a mix engine without plug-in delay compensation is 'unworkable' or 'unusable'. Thousands of perfectly good records were made on old Pro Tools Mix systems without it. And with Pro Tools native systems, there's no need for it unless you're using plug-ins that require a lookahead buffer. Yes it's a pain if you want to do parallel processing with some third-party plug-ins that use lookahead. Otherwise... is it really such a big deal?


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The Elf
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Sam Inglis]
      #872258 - 02/11/10 11:02 AM
The first time I used Pro Tools LE I dropped a couple of plug-ins on a drum track and it came out late. I didn’t know that LE lacked ADC and that came as a nasty shock. The official PT solution suggested to manually apply a delay to all the other tracks - I know there are better ways to handle this now, but at the time I was trusting the word from the horse’s mouth.

Then I added a couple of plug-ins to a bass track and that was now also arriving late, but with a different latency. More calculations to sort that one out…

Then I added a couple of plug-ins to a snare track. Aargh! Worse still, if I changed or removed plug-ins I had to calculate all over again!

It only took a few more of these calculations and re-calculations each time I added/changed/removed plug-ins to realise I simply couldn’t work this way.

I dropped PT LE like a hot potato and I’ve no intention of going back. I simply use it convert projects to a DAW that has ADC.

Before anyone begins telling me that there are easy ways to manage around this I’ll say that yes, I do know that now, and if folks have ways of getting around and working through it, then good luck to you. For myself I’ve absolutely no intentions of ever again working with a DAW without ADC. Life is simply too short.

Just my opinion.

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Sam Inglis
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872267 - 02/11/10 11:22 AM
Are you sure that was Pro Tools LE? And which plug-ins were you using?

Like I say -- apart from plug-ins that use lookahead, or need to be routed out to DSP hardware, there shouldn't be any delay.

Just to check I am not going mad, I've just loaded up a drum multitrack session in LE, duplicated the snare track and placed some stock Digirack plug-ins on one copy. Sure enough there is no phasing and the tracks null completely when I reverse the polarity of one.

From what I remember, the business of calculating delay times and having them reported in the Mix window was something you needed to do in PT Mix systems, but that was to do with bussing delays within the TDM mixer and didn't affect LE systems.


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872274 - 02/11/10 11:46 AM
Indeed Sam is right. Plugin delay isn't an issue affecting PT LE any more than any other native DAW...... never understood why people go on about that. It was a TDM issue. The ONLY time it's an LE issue is when LE plugins don't report their delay correctly - and in that instance you'll find you get the same problem in Logic and other native DAWs.

Or to put it more simply - LE has ADC. Always has.


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The Elf
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Sam Inglis]
      #872278 - 02/11/10 11:55 AM
From official Digidesign documentation:

"A few years ago, Automatic Delay Compensation was added to Pro Tools|HD systems to improve mixing and increase recording accuracy with Pro Tools TDM systems.
When activated, the Automatic Delay Compensation feature automatically makes adjustments in Pro Tools HD software to compensate for all latencies in the I/O, internal and external routing, and plug-in algorithm processing, ensuring that recordings and mixes stay perfectly time aligned and phase accurate.
Host-based Pro Tools systems such as Pro Tools LE and Pro Tools M-Powered, on the other hand, do not have this Automatic Delay Compensation feature. In most cases, however, mixer latencies with host-based systems are not a factor. In cases where delay compensation is necessary to ensure that audio stays time aligned, there is a way to manually compensate for plug-in latencies by using the DigiRack Time Adjuster plug-in, or by slightly moving or “nudging” tracks."

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Sam Inglis
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872280 - 02/11/10 12:03 PM
The point is that in an LE system, delay compensation is not *needed* unless plug-ins impose a significant delay (greater than that imposed by the buffer size).

In any native system, the input and output buffers provide what you might call processing 'headroom' -- a certain amount of time for the CPU to get all the necessary audio processing done before the audio is returned to the outputs. This includes plug-in processing, but also things like routing and gain changes applied by faders. And with nearly all plug-ins, the CPU doesn't *need* extra time above and beyond this to get the processing done. So it can return the processed audio in perfect sync with unprocessed audio.

The problems arise with plug-ins that require lookahead or bussing out to a DSP card.


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The Elf
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Sam Inglis]
      #872289 - 02/11/10 12:23 PM
I'm going back a long time, so no idea what plugs I used, but they were not external or DSP plugs - but they knocked my drum mic's out of alignment.

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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872312 - 02/11/10 01:59 PM
If you set your buffer to as long as possible, i think its 2000samples now in LE?


Most plugins are fine, Waves, Digirack, Massey, etc.

PSP plugins, cause a huge delay and they completely [ ****** ] with the sound, but i like em enough to compensate.

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: The Elf]
      #872333 - 02/11/10 04:35 PM
Quote The Elf:

I'm going back a long time, so no idea what plugs I used, but they were not external or DSP plugs - but they knocked my drum mic's out of alignment.




sure - but that'll be because you had the latency set too low......


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The Elf
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: narcoman]
      #872342 - 02/11/10 05:44 PM
Quote narcoman:

Quote The Elf:

I'm going back a long time, so no idea what plugs I used, but they were not external or DSP plugs - but they knocked my drum mic's out of alignment.




sure - but that'll be because you had the latency set too low......



Nobody gave me that advice when I asked here at the time I discovered the problem!

Nothing spoiled. I'm more than happy with my DAW of choice!

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872348 - 02/11/10 06:02 PM
hahah!! Well - there's far more wrong with LE than just that!! It's missing nearly all of the good stuff init?


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thenaturallevel



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Sam Inglis]
      #872416 - 03/11/10 09:01 AM
Quote Sam Inglis:

The point is that in an LE system, delay compensation is not *needed* unless plug-ins impose a significant delay (greater than that imposed by the buffer size).

In any native system, the input and output buffers provide what you might call processing 'headroom' -- a certain amount of time for the CPU to get all the necessary audio processing done before the audio is returned to the outputs. This includes plug-in processing, but also things like routing and gain changes applied by faders. And with nearly all plug-ins, the CPU doesn't *need* extra time above and beyond this to get the processing done. So it can return the processed audio in perfect sync with unprocessed audio.

The problems arise with plug-ins that require lookahead or bussing out to a DSP card.




I always thought that this wasn't true. If a plugin caused a 1 sample delay it was always a 1 sample delay regardless of the buffer size.


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Sam Inglis
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872417 - 03/11/10 09:06 AM
Come to think of it you might be right. I suppose the point might be better put by saying that most plug-ins don't actually cause any delay, even one sample, so most of the time there is nothing to compensate for in LE systems.


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #872426 - 03/11/10 09:28 AM
Quote thenaturallevel:


I always thought that this wasn't true. If a plugin caused a 1 sample delay it was always a 1 sample delay regardless of the buffer size.




sure - but the audio engine can shuffle things around UP to the buffer delay.


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: narcoman]
      #872566 - 03/11/10 09:06 PM
Quote narcoman:

Quote thenaturallevel:


I always thought that this wasn't true. If a plugin caused a 1 sample delay it was always a 1 sample delay regardless of the buffer size.




sure - but the audio engine can shuffle things around UP to the buffer delay.




I am well confused, does it shuffle things around? Or does it not?

I appear to have spouted my mouth off elsewhere saying that it does, (i've always just used 1sample or nearly zero sample plugins and anything that uses a bigger delay i've used the time adjuster plugin.

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872593 - 03/11/10 11:43 PM
youve got me thinking now. I'll do an experiment tomorrow.


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soundbyter



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872611 - 04/11/10 04:34 AM
What a tease! Totally ridiculous that PT is hardware reliant.



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Mixedup
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: soundbyter]
      #872621 - 04/11/10 08:00 AM
Just to muddy this debate further... it's not just plug-ins. Any routing out to hardware and back suffers from latency. We're not always talking huge delays here; just enough to smear things a little bit... and cumulatively suck life out of things

I suppose it hasn't been in the developers' interest to make available a platform that allow people to have a professional setup with someone else's dsp plug-ins. I'm sure they'll wake up and smell the coffee.


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: soundbyter]
      #872632 - 04/11/10 08:59 AM
Quote soundbyter:

What a tease! Totally ridiculous that PT is hardware reliant.






makes them money !! Thats ALL that matters to a company and the bottom line! I hope we never see PT without its hardware "dongle".


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thenaturallevel



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: narcoman]
      #872633 - 04/11/10 09:02 AM
Quote narcoman:

Quote soundbyter:

What a tease! Totally ridiculous that PT is hardware reliant.






makes them money !! Thats ALL that matters to a company and the bottom line! I hope we never see PT without its hardware "dongle".




If the rumours are to believed PT9 will be hardware free and cost $2500.


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The Elf
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #872661 - 04/11/10 10:15 AM
The very fact that the bedroom hero can’t afford to get his hands on ‘serious’ PT is part of its success, and this has been skilfully managed. You’ve got to take your hat off to that.

Both Avid and its customers have the same agenda - to convince the world that PT has something special about it, for which you can then charge a premium.

If you have both the manufacturer and its customers all telling you the same thing - ‘PT is for professionals; if you don’t use PT you are not a professional’ – it becomes a powerful, self-fulfilling message. To those who only know half the story (which is the case with many, if not most in the audio industry, I would suggest) it has become an unassailable, accepted ‘fact’.

Love it or hate it, the hardware reliance helps to justify the price. If I were Avid I’d be wary of losing my grip on such a market advantage, but what do I know?!

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Steve Hill
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: soundbyter]
      #872672 - 04/11/10 10:39 AM
Quote soundbyter:

What a tease! Totally ridiculous that PT is hardware reliant.






Everything is hardware reliant, unless you have some way of using software on some ethereal astral plane.

PT's historical strength has been its ability to substantially add to the power of a computer to deliver a stable, world class product which it established itself as brand leader (in the non-bedroom market).

I know computers are more powerful these days, but they can still struggle with a serious project. Even with a UAD Quad card on my 8-core Mac Pro there are only so many Manley Massive Passives I can use at once.

Avid would be crazy to abandon a successful corporate strategy unless they have also found a magic bullet to stop cracking.

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DaleSmith



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #872675 - 04/11/10 11:01 AM







Everything is hardware reliant, unless you have some way of using software on some ethereal astral plane.






hahaha...





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wossname?
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #872785 - 04/11/10 04:15 PM
Mellowmuse ATA fixes this?
Atleast without too much hassle...

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: The Elf]
      #872809 - 04/11/10 06:32 PM
Quote The Elf:

The very fact that the bedroom hero can’t afford to get his hands on ‘serious’ PT is part of its success, and this has been skilfully managed. You’ve got to take your hat off to that.

Both Avid and its customers have the same agenda - to convince the world that PT has something special about it, for which you can then charge a premium.

If you have both the manufacturer and its customers all telling you the same thing - ‘PT is for professionals; if you don’t use PT you are not a professional’ – it becomes a powerful, self-fulfilling message. To those who only know half the story (which is the case with many, if not most in the audio industry, I would suggest) it has become an unassailable, accepted ‘fact’.

Love it or hate it, the hardware reliance helps to justify the price. If I were Avid I’d be wary of losing my grip on such a market advantage, but what do I know?!




Heck of a lot of truth in that.

Mind you - Digidesign {and hopefully now Avid full time} have been one o the few DAW makers that actually LISTEN to the professional end user. they have been the only people to concentrate {well - along with Sadie and Fairlight} to implement tools that were being requested from the professional marketplace only. Logic, Sonar, cubase etc - did some of this - but they also listened to what "home punters" want.

A professional system has the tools a professional needs. PT isnt aimed at composers - but you can use it if you like. Its a production and post production tools. It's excellent routing, rims, VCAs and robust hardware interfaces pretty much make that a forgone conclusion. Less sexy - sure. Less bells and whistle. But the money earning end doesn't request bells and whistles.....

So - to be honest it's a fact and "fact" in equal measures.

Put trims, VCAs, better routing, less buttons, proper spotting, dedicated high end controller and decent mixer page into Logic - and I'll be there.


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Jack Ruston



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872816 - 04/11/10 07:36 PM
Yeah me too. I've tried a number of times to sort out another more flexible solution for work. But everytime I do, I hit a brick wall. I make a list of the fundamental things that I need the software to do...functions which make intuitive sense to me and are part of my workflow. I take that list to whatever manufacturer seems to be doing good stuff and everytime it's the same story... I get a reply which basically tells me that I can do some, perhaps most, but not all of the things on my list. There's usually an additional list of other cool things that the software can do. I'm always impressed but fundamentally I still need it to do certain basic things. And in every case so far, the most sensible solution is to stay where I am. So for me, it's not the stability and dedicated hardware that are such a draw...It's actually a functional issue. And a lot of non-PT people dont get this. Anyway, hopefully now it's opening up a bit.

J

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Mixedup
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Jack Ruston]
      #872827 - 04/11/10 08:46 PM
Quote Jack Ruston:

functions which make intuitive sense to me and are part of my workflow.




That's the issue, right there. And for a lot of folk who learned this stuff on PT, that's what's going to feel intuitive. I've always worked with different DAWs (mainly PT, Cubase & Logic) and there are elements that I love about each, and elements that frustrate me. My beef with PT is that I have to shell out several thousand pounds for the one or two things I miss, given that LE has to date proved pretty much unworkable for the particular tasks I seem to come back to again and again. And I *hate* being unnecessarily tied into a closed hardware system. It's like buying a great car only to find that you can only drive it on the manufacturer's roads! At least Apple's hardware is capable of being used for things other than Logic...


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Mixedup]
      #872838 - 04/11/10 10:09 PM
Quote Mixedup:

Quote Jack Ruston:

functions which make intuitive sense to me and are part of my workflow.




That's the issue, right there. And for a lot of folk who learned this stuff on PT, that's what's going to feel intuitive. I've always worked with different DAWs (mainly PT, Cubase & Logic) and there are elements that I love about each, and elements that frustrate me.




Not at all. the thing about PT is when they designed it they followed a work flow that people had been using since the 60s and 70s. That was the point. every other DAW maker (apart from Sadie and Fairlight) seems to run around trying to re-invent the wheel. Those designers within Steinberg etc would do well to listen to an already efficient way of doing things! Its not that they're not intuitive - they're fine. They are just missing the basics!.... look how long it took to get track to track routing. That's all they need to do.... how hard is it to have trims or VCAs? Stop resisting it guys!!


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Jack Ruston



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872848 - 04/11/10 11:20 PM
http://magazine.dv247.com/2010/11/04/pro-tools-9/

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Chaconne



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872849 - 04/11/10 11:22 PM
Not wierdo's talking rubbish after all.

PT 9 Its going to be 'hardware free' - and with ADC - at last....

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Chaconne



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872851 - 04/11/10 11:34 PM
...shrewd move, its only software after all, but they have that aspiration badge thats gonna pull the rug from the competitors....

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Stef Andrews



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872853 - 04/11/10 11:45 PM
Well, I'll be leaving Logic behind. £500ish from Avid directly, that DV link said about £430 from them. Seems to be one of the best deals I've ever seen, along with Logic for £109 as a student!

The no VCAs on the standard version, and tbh, they're about the only thing that really grab my eye outside of the track count for an extra £1,500. Though that may be showing my lack of insight!

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872854 - 05/11/10 12:03 AM
well fek me!! Ya just never can tell. Not sure what I think of it but hey - gotta be wrong sometimes!!


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Chaconne]
      #872855 - 05/11/10 12:05 AM
Quote Chaconne:

...shrewd move, its only software after all, but they have that aspiration badge thats gonna pull the rug from the competitors....



indeed.

It'll generate sales.

I reckon it's gonna create more problems for people like me in the long run !! :_ but only little ones...

UNBELIEVABLE.

I've long defended protools. Always liked the s/w - always liked Digidesign. Then Avid release this. £250 upgrade for PT8 users and guess what. NO FU.CKING NEW STUFF AT ALL. 256 MIDI channels instead of 128.

Absolutely pathetic - it's barely an 8.2 .... PT 9 my arse.....



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Chaconne



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872857 - 05/11/10 12:17 AM
yeah, its only really about the 'freedom', which again just shows what a mix up in concepts Pro Tools has become. I guess they want thier cake and to eat it. Everyones going to buy this because they think "Pro Tools man" - thats what you NEED to make music- even if its just another wayy of shunting and cutting any old audio about.

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872859 - 05/11/10 12:19 AM
indeed. Gained a whole load more wannabes and risk losing the loyalty of the high end crowd - asking me for £250 (actually looks more like £400) for nothing.


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872863 - 05/11/10 12:25 AM
I'll still have logic installed, same as I have cubase and reason, just for compatability with other people that I work with.

But my god am I pleased to be able to use this pretty much anywhere now and with proper ADC.

If it uses core audio can it use Audio Units?

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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872865 - 05/11/10 12:34 AM
They haven't got rid of anything from the top end, just given the LE users stuff they have been clamouring for for years.


You can still use digi hardware, get the quickest low latency tracking. Rock solid reliability. Still use DSP cards, I've a feeling there's still more to come for HD users. I'm sure there must be another TDM card coming soon, no idea what features they'd add other than more power to the basic HD card.



I think I'm still going to drop for the Pro Tools Native HD card, even though your average "gearslut" can't seem to see the value in it.

I want compatability with the old sessions and a lot of the stuff we work on here runs out of tracks on a HD3 rig. So I may as well get a fast I/O card for a few hundred quid more.

Then replace our ageing 192s at some point.

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Chaconne



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872866 - 05/11/10 12:38 AM
No AU, its still RTAS. I just watched the AES stream, just got caught up in the buzz I guess. (pretty sure saw the back of P.W ask a question about freezing...)

Anyhoo, it does really just seam to be 8, but with freedom, ADC, and err...

It was actually quite funny watching people not really whoop and holler with the news, because obviously....ADC....what like Fruity Loops? Any old ASIO unit.....what like everything else?

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oggyb



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: narcoman]
      #872869 - 05/11/10 12:41 AM
Quote narcoman:

MUCH SNIP

PT 9 my arse.....






That was some vitriol. . . :P

I had a look at the Avid website. It seems like an incremental update indeed, and the changes are a mixture of welcome workflow-smoothing additions and stuff other DAWs already have.

I think I shall be sticking with Cubase for a while yet, especially since I rarely have to deal with other people's session files.

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #872871 - 05/11/10 12:50 AM
Quote JamesSimpson:

They haven't got rid of anything from the top end, just given the LE users stuff they have been clamouring for for years.






Then why not let PT 8 HD users upgrade for a nominal amount rather than the £1000 it'll cost us?

Stupid Avid.


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Chaconne]
      #872872 - 05/11/10 12:52 AM
Quote Chaconne:


It was actually quite funny watching people not really whoop and holler with the news, because obviously....ADC....what like Fruity Loops? Any old ASIO unit.....what like everything else?




The difference being - ADC in HD actually works. Try 60 channels of plugins on an orchestral session and SEE what happens in native land. (mental note - must not defend 'tard in Avid any more until they make a proper PT 9)


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Chaconne



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872878 - 05/11/10 01:33 AM
Well here we go, someone talks about native, someone else HD. Its no longer a simple concept.

If you have HD, PT9 is what you would expect as a freebie really - something that allows you to work away unrestricted, especially considering the cost of the hardware.

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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: narcoman]
      #872890 - 05/11/10 03:30 AM
Quote narcoman:

Quote JamesSimpson:

They haven't got rid of anything from the top end, just given the LE users stuff they have been clamouring for for years.






Then why not let PT 8 HD users upgrade for a nominal amount rather than the £1000 it'll cost us?

Stupid Avid.




It costs £293 for a HD upgrade?

http://shop.avid.com/store/product.do?product=307036370308416

Unless you mean because you have 3 rigs? I dunno ask about a bulk license buy?

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wossname?
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: The Elf]
      #872897 - 05/11/10 06:58 AM
Quote The Elf:

For myself I’ve absolutely no intentions of ever again working with a DAW without ADC. Life is simply too short.

Just my opinion.




Pro Tools 9 is official, and not the 2500USD price I saw someone here quote. 510USD I believe it is. And no relience on AVID HW, from what I can see...


http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Tools-Software?intcmp=AV-HP-S2

"Work efficiently and get the best sonic results with Automatic Delay Compensation, multitrack Beat Detective[...]"

Looking good this? And the upgrade price is no more than what you previously had to pay for that expansion that gave more tracks and Multitrack Beat detective.

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The Elf
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #872898 - 05/11/10 07:08 AM
Well, this is a change in the playing field. Let's see what happens.

The thought of having to plod through PT's tiresomely cumbersome interface (IMO) dismays me, but it's going to be a lot harder to justify not using it in future!

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thenaturallevel



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: wossname?]
      #872903 - 05/11/10 08:08 AM
Quote wossname?:

Quote The Elf:

For myself I’ve absolutely no intentions of ever again working with a DAW without ADC. Life is simply too short.

Just my opinion.




Pro Tools 9 is official, and not the 2500USD price I saw someone here quote. 510USD I believe it is. And no relience on AVID HW, from what I can see...


http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Tools-Software?intcmp=AV-HP-S2

"Work efficiently and get the best sonic results with Automatic Delay Compensation, multitrack Beat Detective[...]"

Looking good this? And the upgrade price is no more than what you previously had to pay for that expansion that gave more tracks and Multitrack Beat detective.




$2500 was the rumoured value Avid had placed on PT. It seems that in UK it will cost approx £500 for the full version and approx £200-290 for the basic crossgrade from M-Powered/LE.


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Ten21
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: The Elf]
      #872905 - 05/11/10 08:20 AM
A timely move I think. There are so many good native systems now that they really needed to join the club.

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The Elf
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #872908 - 05/11/10 08:32 AM
If I upgrade from the PT LE 8 (+ MBox 2) that I have right now, do I then need to buy an iLok to run PT9 with the MBox 2?

I realise an iLok is going to be a requirement to run PT9 with a third-party ASIO interface, but does my MBox 2 still act as a 'dongle'?

My laptop is a bit USB-portally challenged!

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thenaturallevel



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: The Elf]
      #872911 - 05/11/10 08:39 AM
Quote The Elf:

If I upgrade from the PT LE 8 (+ MBox 2) that I have right now, do I then need to buy an iLok to run PT9 with the MBox 2?

I realise an iLok is going to be a requirement to run PT9 with a third-party ASIO interface, but does my MBox 2 still act as a 'dongle'?

My laptop is a bit USB-portally challenged!




I believe the MBox will still act as a dongle.


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Sam Inglis
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872919 - 05/11/10 09:29 AM
Details are on the Avid site now, and for me at least, it looks amazing -- almost too good to be true.

So the new Pro Tools 9 includes, among other features:

Full delay compensation for plug-ins and external I/O

ASIO and Core Audio support (up to 32 inputs! Yay!)

96 mono or stereo tracks

Timecode ruler (which was previously an HD only thing)

Eucon support

and better still, the Complete Production Toolkit now adds:

VCA groups (yay!)

and Snapshot automation (double yay!)

...all of which pretty much blows my wishlist for LE out of the water. I don't think my Cubase system will be getting quite as much use from now on.


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thenaturallevel



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Sam Inglis]
      #872922 - 05/11/10 09:43 AM
Quote Sam Inglis:

Details are on the Avid site now, and for me at least, it looks amazing -- almost too good to be true.

So the new Pro Tools 9 includes, among other features:

Full delay compensation for plug-ins and external I/O

ASIO and Core Audio support (up to 32 inputs! Yay!)

96 mono or stereo tracks

Timecode ruler (which was previously an HD only thing)

Eucon support

and better still, the Complete Production Toolkit now adds:

VCA groups (yay!)

and Snapshot automation (double yay!)

...all of which pretty much blows my wishlist for LE out of the water. I don't think my Cubase system will be getting quite as much use from now on.




I'm just reading the "Whats new in.." pdf. Looks like Avid have listened.


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The Elf
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #872923 - 05/11/10 09:46 AM
Quote thenaturallevel:

Quote The Elf:

If I upgrade from the PT LE 8 (+ MBox 2) that I have right now, do I then need to buy an iLok to run PT9 with the MBox 2?

I realise an iLok is going to be a requirement to run PT9 with a third-party ASIO interface, but does my MBox 2 still act as a 'dongle'?

My laptop is a bit USB-portally challenged!




I believe the MBox will still act as a dongle.



Thanks. Even better if it will act as a dongle while I'm using my Fireface as the audio interface!

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Mixedup
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #872925 - 05/11/10 09:50 AM
The other bits and pieces for LE are nice to haves, but ADC. Whoop. At last I can think about using PT for serious mixing work, and recording through a decent interface, without selling a house to do it (whoop).

RTAS/AU/VST isn't an issue given the wrapper.

Also looks like I might be able to run PT9 with my humble MBox 1 if I really want to. Always wondered why they ditched that when it had perfectly good ASIO drivers.

...about bloody time, but hat's off to Avid for finally getting with the times (and the market).


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cloudcub



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872940 - 05/11/10 10:47 AM
But is not going to get cracked in no time!?


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Steve Hill
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872962 - 05/11/10 12:23 PM
Well, well. I said when Apple released Logic 8 at a knockdown price and dongle-free that it was an opening salvo in a war to kill PT. It's obviously had some effect, because this is the Avid response: to compete head on with Logic.

Now it comes down to deep pockets.

I'll put money on Logic 9 being £250 instead of £400 within 3 months.

No complaints: everyone's a winner on the consumer side.

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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: thenaturallevel]
      #872966 - 05/11/10 12:27 PM
Quote thenaturallevel:

Quote wossname?:

Quote The Elf:

For myself I’ve absolutely no intentions of ever again working with a DAW without ADC. Life is simply too short.

Just my opinion.




Pro Tools 9 is official, and not the 2500USD price I saw someone here quote. 510USD I believe it is. And no relience on AVID HW, from what I can see...


http://www.avid.com/US/products/Pro-Tools-Software?intcmp=AV-HP-S2

"Work efficiently and get the best sonic results with Automatic Delay Compensation, multitrack Beat Detective[...]"

Looking good this? And the upgrade price is no more than what you previously had to pay for that expansion that gave more tracks and Multitrack Beat detective.




$2500 was the rumoured value Avid had placed on PT. It seems that in UK it will cost approx £500 for the full version and approx £200-290 for the basic crossgrade from M-Powered/LE.





Pro Tools HD is still $2500, if you add the price of pro tools 9 and all of the toolkit options to give you the full features of pro tools HD it still adds up to about £2000.

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872971 - 05/11/10 12:42 PM
aye - but with three fekkin rigs to support Avid are taking the piss for users like me. It's not the amount of money - it's the ruddy principal. A big bitten thumb at the area of the market that has supported them for so long.


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Mixedup]
      #872977 - 05/11/10 12:49 PM
Quote Mixedup:

The other bits and pieces for LE are nice to haves, but ADC. Whoop. At last I can think about using PT for serious mixing work, and recording through a decent interface, without selling a house to do it (whoop).





maybe - but Lynx had those options anyway. As I say - no change at my end of the market - yet we're still expected to fork out.....


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #872981 - 05/11/10 12:59 PM
Well you don't HAVE to fork out.... still on 7.4 downstairs because it does everything we need it to do.

Unless you need it for some sort of compatability thing or 8 does things you don't like.

I've got a feeling HD users have something coming still, I dunno why, I think it's just the fact that the cards have the wrong digilink connectors on them.

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #872987 - 05/11/10 01:26 PM
Quote JamesSimpson:

Well you don't HAVE to fork out.... still on 7.4 downstairs because it does everything we need it to do.

Unless you need it for some sort of compatability thing or 8 does things you don't like.

I've got a feeling HD users have something coming still, I dunno why, I think it's just the fact that the cards have the wrong digilink connectors on them.




competitive edge and client expectations in my business means I will. But not until next year - dont wanna be Avids beta tester !!

Suspect you are right for HD - although HEAT was probably the thing.


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wossname?
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: The Elf]
      #873119 - 06/11/10 10:01 AM
Quote The Elf:


My laptop is a bit USB-portally challenged!




Try a PCMCIA USB thingie? An iLok is happy to live on a hub also.

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ConcertinaChap



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #873137 - 06/11/10 12:45 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Now it comes down to deep pockets.



Hmmm. Interesting thought, and a worrying one for Avid, I should think. Currently Apple could buy Avid outright out of money in the bank and hardly notice the dent.

Chris

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Aftertouch
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #873265 - 07/11/10 11:05 AM
Quote ConcertinaChap:

Quote Steve Hill:

Now it comes down to deep pockets.



Hmmm. Interesting thought, and a worrying one for Avid, I should think. Currently Apple could buy Avid outright out of money in the bank and hardly notice the dent.

Chris




Mmm...

I would be surprised if Apple snapped up Avid. All of their acquisitions that I can remember over the years have been products that they can use to dominate a particular market (FCP and Logic for example). I don't think that Avid has anything that Apple needs. FCP has taken the mass market slice of the video/film market and Logic doesn't do at all bad.

I think Apple could in fact be rubbing their hands at this news. Look at it like this, as mentioned earlier, Avid's competitive edge with Pro Tools may have just been evaporated overnight.

No longer can the protectionists say things like "you need Pro Tools to be a proper pro". You will now have almost every man and his dog with Pro Tools software and it won't be long before people start to think, "Is Pro Tools really that much better than the others?" I know all of the arguments about the benefits of HD, but all of that will be lost in the fact that most people will just know Pro Tools as one platform.

Avid will now have to compete toe-to-toe with the likes of Apple, Steinberg and even Ableton... yes Ableton. For long there has been equal or better interfaces than Avid hardware and I think many people will start to look elsewhere at all other options and some "pros" I would expect, might just go for the standard version for compatibility reasons and not splash out on full HD rigs.

No more hands down arguments for Pro Tools I say.


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Aftertouch]
      #873270 - 07/11/10 11:22 AM
Some great points Aftertouch.... good post.

Quote Aftertouch:



Mmm...

I would be surprised if Apple snapped up Avid. All of their acquisitions that I can remember over the years have been products that they can use to dominate a particular market (FCP and Logic for example). I don't think that Avid has anything that Apple needs. FCP has taken the mass market slice of the video/film market and Logic doesn't do at all bad.




I'd be surprised too - but actually the reasons you've given would all be reasons FOR Apple to try and buy them, although I reckon it'd be tricky!! PT users are overwhelmingly Mac already though.

Quote Aftertouch:


I think Apple could in fact be rubbing their hands at this news. Look at it like this, as mentioned earlier, Avid's competitive edge with Pro Tools may have just been evaporated overnight.




As much as I don't like the news, I think Avids competitive edge may actually have increased. Despite what many say - PT is the best recording and mix system. I use many of them hear - and it just has the facilities that a professional platform needs. Most of the rest (apart from Sadie and Fairlight) just don't. It MAY get the native crew to shake themselves up (Logics ridiculous many buttons one function approach and the native lack of trims and VCA - might all change very quickly)

Quote Aftertouch:


No longer can the protectionists say things like "you need Pro Tools to be a proper pro". You will now have almost every man and his dog with Pro Tools software and it won't be long before people start to think, "Is Pro Tools really that much better than the others?" I know all of the arguments about the benefits of HD, but all of that will be lost in the fact that most people will just know Pro Tools as one platform.




Well - only daft people would say "you need PT to be pro". More accurate would be "the overwhelming majority of professional mixers and recordists use PT, although not exclusively". The tools don't make the man - but a knowledge of what you really need does... PT, Sadie and Fairlight fit that bill. Whilst PT still has a simple studio workflow and features that others are missing it'll still be the professional choice. Mass investment by many into ICON etc will maintain that for a few more years yet. There are more ICONs out there than AWS 900.

Quote Aftertouch:



Avid will now have to compete toe-to-toe with the likes of Apple, Steinberg and even Ableton... yes Ableton. For long their have been equal or better interfaces than Avid hardware and I think many people will start to look elsewhere at all other options and some "pros" I would expect, might just go for the standard version for compatibility reasons and not splash out on full HD rigs.




Competing with Apple would be a toughy - just pointless. Nowhere near their money really. But the rest? Ableton is a very different product and Steinberg don't have a high end pre-existing installation (apart from Zimmer - even his team mixes on PT though).
Second point - interfaces - PTs stuff has always sat in the middle - not the best, not the worst and about right for the money.

Your last point is well made apart from one thing - this new "any interface " version of PT is crippled compared to the HD, HD native and expanded versions. No VCAs. Crucial in professional work.
Quote Aftertouch:



No more hands down arguments for Pro Tools I say.



Never was for any home users. Still hands down in post and other such markets - mainly because of pre-existing installations and current user tools.

And before anyone gives me the usual "you're a fan boy who defends it cuz he owns it" - remember I have three fully specced Nuendo rigs which I consider to be overpriced and our team should have bought Cubase!! I also have Logic Pro on every machine here - fully paid for and consider it a clunky but good (not great) DAW. I reckon I should be approaching balanced by now!


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ConcertinaChap



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #873275 - 07/11/10 11:47 AM
Just to clarify, I wasn't actually suggesting that Apple would really want to buy Avid (although if I was an Avid shareholder it's certainly a rumour I'd want to spread. Look at what happened to Sony's stock price when a similarly baseless rumour was started that Apple wanted to buy them!) But, in a fight, few companies have deeper pockets than Apple is all I'm saying.

Chris

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Aftertouch
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #873276 - 07/11/10 11:49 AM
Some good points there Narcoman.

On the acquisition/and or response to Avid front, I"m betting on Apple actually moving Logic up a few notches, just as they did with FCP.

I see Logic Express remaining, but I wouldn't be suprised if Apple diped into their reported $51 billion of reserves for some strategic acquisitions. Imagine if they brought some if these firms with some change from the sofa :-

Lexicon Pro (Harman)
Apogee
Universal Audio
Waves (all ethical arguments aside)
Maybe even a company like Toontrack (EZ drummer and Superior Drummer) for some added spice and variety

Now imagine all of the best technology from those companies above, all integrated into a super suite of Logic, a bit like Final Cut Studio - Add a new control surface protocol developed in partnership with someone like SSL or Audient and then I think Avid might just be left with those studios you mentioned with their Icons!


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #873277 - 07/11/10 11:52 AM
Quote ConcertinaChap:

Just to clarify, I wasn't actually suggesting that Apple would really want to buy Avid (although if I was an Avid shareholder it's certainly a rumour I'd want to spread. Look at what happened to Sony's stock price when a similarly baseless rumour was started that Apple wanted to buy them!) But, in a fight, few companies have deeper pockets than Apple is all I'm saying.

Chris




sure - but the more one thinks about it - the more it DOES make sense.


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Aftertouch
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: ConcertinaChap]
      #873278 - 07/11/10 11:54 AM
Quote ConcertinaChap:

Just to clarify, I wasn't actually suggesting that Apple would really want to buy Avid (although if I was an Avid shareholder it's certainly a rumour I'd want to spread.




Good point. I see what you meant now.

Quote ConcertinaChap:

But, in a fight, few companies have deeper pockets than Apple is all I'm saying.




To true, at least if this is anything to go by.


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Aftertouch]
      #873279 - 07/11/10 11:55 AM
Quote Aftertouch:

Some good points there Narcoman.

On the acquisition/and or response to Avid front, I"m betting on Apple actually moving Logic up a few notches, just as they did with FCP.

I see Logic Express remaining, but I wouldn't be suprised if Apple diped into their reported $51 billion of reserves for some strategic acquisitions. Imagine if they brought some if these firms with some change from the sofa :-

Lexicon Pro (Harman)
Apogee
Universal Audio
Waves (all ethical arguments aside)
Maybe even a company like Toontrack (EZ drummer and Superior Drummer) for some added spice and variety

Now imagine all of the best technology from those companies above, all integrated into a super suite of Logic, a bit like Final Cut Studio - Add a new control surface protocol developed in partnership with someone like SSL or Audient and then I think Avid might just be left with those studios you mentioned with their Icons!




Interesting proposition and completely feasible from the perspective of Apple trying it. The only thing they'd be fighting is the longevity of the userbase in Avids stuff...... that's why - for me - Apple/Avid makes sense...... I doubt it will happen though. It's just not a big enough market for Apple. Logic fulfills most of their needs!


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Aftertouch
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: narcoman]
      #873281 - 07/11/10 12:02 PM
Quote narcoman:

Quote ConcertinaChap:

Just to clarify, I wasn't actually suggesting that Apple would really want to buy Avid (although if I was an Avid shareholder it's certainly a rumour I'd want to spread. Look at what happened to Sony's stock price when a similarly baseless rumour was started that Apple wanted to buy them!) But, in a fight, few companies have deeper pockets than Apple is all I'm saying.

Chris




sure - but the more one thinks about it - the more it DOES make sense.




If they did, it would be more for the reasons of getting their hands on the M-Audio division - couldn't you just see all of the newly Apple rebranded keyboards, speakers and audio interfaces in their stores?

Add the best bits of Avid's film and video tools (that FCP might not already have) and those Pro Tools HD functions you mentioned to Logic and that should be it!

I still can't see it though.


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ConcertinaChap



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Aftertouch]
      #873287 - 07/11/10 12:48 PM
Quote Aftertouch:

If they did, it would be more for the reasons of getting their hands on the M-Audio division - couldn't you just see all of the newly Apple rebranded keyboards, speakers and audio interfaces in their stores?




And the subsequent rapid disappearance of the Windows drivers ...

But I think you're talking to an Avid shareholder there

CC

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jayzed
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #873297 - 07/11/10 02:16 PM
For years, when the main audio work I did was music creation at home I'd never really liked Pro Tools.
This was until -
1. PT started to get better MIDI (about ver 7)
and
2. I started doing some studio work

Then I gradually came to appreciate the PT editing flow. Using PT at work even changed the way I used Cubase at home, for the better. Cubase could do what PT did, but it was a non-obvious workflow to me because I came from a composition POV. When I applied some of the PT workflow ideas to Cubase the speed of my editing improved considerably, I started using more key commands and I started doing a lot more editing on rendered audio rather than the original MIDI tracks (where it made sense anyway).

I'm a bit of a contrary bugger and all the Gearslags going on about how one had to have PT to be 'pro' (yeah right) had always put me off but when I started using PT in earnest for post editing and ADR I started to come around.

I still continue (for the moment) to use Cubase at home for various projects and my own stuff but I've also been running PT M-Powered for some editing (particularly sfx and dialogue), both because I like the cleanliness of it's editing paradigm (even though with a little key command work Cubase can all but match it) and because it keeps my eye in when I'm not in the studio, being a freelancer. But the limitations in tracks, ADC and interfaces meant I did most of my work at home outside of PT and I found it frustrating that this application that was really quite good in the HD version was crippled in the version I could justify purchasing at home. These things were standard in other applications and it felt like Digi was taking the mick for (perfectly valid to them) business strategy reasons.

Also like some others here, I have a completely different understanding of ADC than Sam I. Many of my favourite plugins do appear to cause track specific latency on the track on which they are inserted and things get pretty convoluted pretty quickly when buses and auxes need to be accounted for - whether using mellomuse's ATA or manual track delays. This appears to be to be unrelated to the buffer size on the interface and I don't experience a direct connection between the different types of latency. It's possible that I've been coming to the wrong conclusion as to why I get phasing and stereo/micro timing issues with many plugins but it goes away when I do things to allow for the plugin latency.

Now that PT 9 has ADC and will work with my higher quality interfaces at home I am seriously considering jumping ship.

Cubase 5.5 no longer works with video on my machine (since the QT update) and although there may be a way to fix this, I have intended to move across to PT 9 for a non-time critical video project.

The only fly in this ointment is that my home setup is on a PC and I can't get bloody PT 9 to recognise any of my interfaces on this machine! Serves me right for being an early adopter. Luckily my main work partition doesn't have any new software installed until I've tested it thoroughly elsewhere so it's mostly just annoying and I was looking forward to running a session in PT with proper timecode and ADC. I was really all prepared to try the jump right away but I can't since I can't get the programme to work! And believe me, I've tried multiple interfaces, install sequences etc and all I get from PT9 is 'hardware not found' or something. Kind of makes my whole post pointless :-).
I'll update if I ever discover a solution. Next interface to try? Kore 1 controller. Probably a long shot.


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: jayzed]
      #873330 - 07/11/10 06:10 PM
Quote jayzed:


Also like some others here, I have a completely different understanding of ADC than Sam I. Many of my favourite plugins do appear to cause track specific latency on the track on which they are inserted and things get pretty convoluted pretty quickly when buses and auxes need to be accounted for - whether using mellomuse's ATA or manual track delays. This appears to be to be unrelated to the buffer size on the interface and I don't experience a direct connection between the different types of latency. It's possible that I've been coming to the wrong conclusion as to why I get phasing and stereo/micro timing issues with many plugins but it goes away when I do things to allow for the plugin latency.

Now that PT 9 has ADC and will work with my higher quality interfaces at home I am seriously considering jumping ship.





As it says in the Pro Tools 9 Manual. If this is a plugin issue and not a pro tools one, in that the plugin is incorrectly reporting latency to the DAW. Then ADC will not rectify this, you still need to slide around manually or use the Mellowmuse. If its just a length delay (due to lookahead or other functions) then the ADC will correct all your timing issues so long as you select the right length ADC.

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A Non O Miss



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: narcoman]
      #873373 - 07/11/10 09:42 PM
Tough to say, you may be right...

All I know is things do change and as Avid has shown, one thing can turn to another at some point along the journey. I always like to remain as fluid as possible, with a few things on the go...

I've never been interested in HD, not really my thing, goes against a few of my ideals, but it is what it is... Had they made this move years ago I would have gotten into PT, but the sheer fact they forced you to a certain interface, at my price point and with 2 already, made it a moot point...

Could be a loss of market share, or maybe they are being clairvoyant, and pushing in on piracy being brought in check in the next few, or maybe its just an advertising stunt to stir up interest, at least it makes people go hmm, gets them talking whereas had they just done the same old thing probably wouldn't have made a bleep...

or maybe

they read Derek Sivers and his advice of always doing what scares you, what excites you, is the best immediate move as it teaches you stuff and ultimately makes you better...It is easy for people to take the easy out, but to do something that absolutely scares the beejezus out of you and requires you to do things you are not necessarily good at, will probably make you an overall better and more functioning person/company regardless the outcome...

If anything it should make everyone else a little nervous, and they should be looking at stepping things up, thus making it overall better for everyone, hopefully...


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thenaturallevel



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Aftertouch]
      #873446 - 08/11/10 11:33 AM
Useful link

http://www.avid.com/US/products/family/Pro-Tools/compare


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #873450 - 08/11/10 11:56 AM
One thing I don't get is people up in arms saying that the Pro Tools HD Native thing is pointless? I fail to grasp that.

I have 2x192s on a HD3 G5 rig.

I don't have any TDM plugins, all rtas. I need HD features to stay compatible with studio 1.

Best option is to buy a HD Native card, it'll come with version 9 and a new iLok free.

I transfer the Pro Tools 9 license to my personal iLok, and leave the HD9 license at the studio.

That way I have HD at the studio, full compatibility with old sessions and the larger studio. And protools 9 to start mixing usefully at home.







Anybody seen this: http://www.uaudio.com/press/releases/2010/1105_avid.html


Goodbye TDM plugs?

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Edited by JamesSimpson (08/11/10 12:43 PM)


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desmond



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #873455 - 08/11/10 12:26 PM
I think TDM will still be here for a while yet.

The move makes sense for Avid, but any large changes will in general excite a whole bunch of people, and p*ss off another whole bunch of people.

For sure, there will be the Logic effect, which is a dumbing down of the general userbase as more and more entry-level, or illegal users jump onto the platform - give it six months and the online forums will be full of "Yo dudes, I jus' got the Tools Pro for making beatz n sh*t cos its supposed to be the boss so me mate dave says tell me how to make beatz from my computer keyboard thanx"

(Yes, it's as depressing as it sounds.) (Let's hope that Pace did a good job with the iLok2...)

However, this move should rejuvenate the platform and give it much more life at the project studio end, while hopefully reassuring pros that the platform continues to have life and investment for some time to come.

Certainly, there will be a lot more people like me, who are perhaps longtime Logic/Cubase/Sonar/Live/etc users, who are intrigued by PT but didn't want to slum it with the crippled PT LE, who can now afford a copy of PT9 to run alongside their existing DAW and give it a try, and for some compatibility with other PT studios/users/sessions. PT has now become a viable solution for these people (a sizeable market within the DAW world) where it wasn't before. And now there is a practical upgrade path as well.

As for all the Apple talk - I'm not sure how seriously committed Apple are to their pro userbase anymore. As was said above, I think Logic fulfils their needs in this area. I can't see them mobilising their forces to try and squash (or buy) the enemy. As I see it at boardroom level, the pro apps divisions continue to tick over while all the heads are turned towards IOS, iPhones/iPads, and the other consumer gadgets, then the Mac and Mac OSX.

I'd love to see Apple demonstrating as much commitment to pro audio as Avid are, but I'm not too optimistic on that...


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #873536 - 08/11/10 06:01 PM
Quote JamesSimpson:



Anybody seen this: http://www.uaudio.com/press/releases/2010/1105_avid.html


Goodbye TDM plugs?




Definitely not goodbye simply because there are oodles more TDM things around. However - it's great news. Even a "good buy"

hoho


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #873540 - 08/11/10 06:05 PM
The top end tracking studios that need TDM for their purpose are dying out, although I think we are reaching a null point. Anybody who has survived the last 10 years till now if they are still here in 18months time, will probably remain until the owners cannot be bothered with the tiny margins.

TDM or it's possible replacement? (maybe never) by the looks of things.

Will remain in post/broadcast circles where there is still some money and it's use is justified. Stem mixes for multimillion dollar movies etc


Pro Tools HD 9 with a Native card and the aforementioned UAD partnership should cover all your processing and tracking needs with a decent spec Mac Pro.


And everybody else will make do with Pro Tools 9 and whatever soundcard suits their needs best.

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desmond



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: narcoman]
      #873543 - 08/11/10 06:08 PM
Erm - UA announces it is now an RTAS developer. I'm a bit lost - UA already provides RTAS plugins, in addition to AU and VST.

Edit: Oh, RTAS plugins are currently wrapped VSTs, whereas the press release suggests they are going to be making native RTAS plugins.

Not sure what's up with that - the AU plugins are also wrapped VST's...

Edited by desmond (08/11/10 06:10 PM)


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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #873554 - 08/11/10 06:27 PM
Quote JamesSimpson:




Pro Tools HD 9 with a Native card and the aforementioned UAD partnership should cover all your processing and tracking needs with a decent spec Mac Pro.






Well - why would you need the UAD any more than you'd need other plugins? Sure - they're good. But so are a lot of others!! Great example would be the EMT140 - I've got a real EMT140.... trust me - the lexicon PCM sim is nearer. Altiverbs even nearer! I don;t like the Space Echo sims - Echofarm TDM) is better. Better still - umm... the real deal!! Then again - I don't really like any of the plugin suites that model "hardware". My plugin preferences seem to revolve around just really good EQs {like the Flux or Brainworx stuff} or interesting compressors {Massey etc}

We have several UAD packs on the Nuendo machines - I might plum for one for one of the HD rigs. But purely because it's just another suite of things now available for the PT systems.

I certainly wouldn't chose UAD cards over any other systems particularly - I'd just as likely recommend McDSP as UAD. Both are rather good! Other than that - it's welcome news here.


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jayzed
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #873557 - 08/11/10 06:35 PM
Thanks James but I was talking about the non-ADC Protools LE and M-P.
I have no problems with any of the plugins I use on Logic, Cubase and (on occasion) Live.
I expect that once I can get PT9 to admit I have a perfectly good interface or two I'll have no problems with my plugins on that platform either.

I was talking about previous comments which seemed to me to imply that plugin latency was somehow merged into the interface latency so there should be no internal track differences. That may be true for progs with ADC but PT lite before version 9 most definitely required manual intervention to deal with tracks hosting latency producing plugins that correctly reported their sample latency.


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ConcertinaChap



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: desmond]
      #873559 - 08/11/10 06:42 PM
Quote desmond:

As I see it at boardroom level, the pro apps divisions continue to tick over while all the heads are turned towards IOS, iPhones/iPads, and the other consumer gadgets, then the Mac and Mac OSX.

I'd love to see Apple demonstrating as much commitment to pro audio as Avid are, but I'm not too optimistic on that...




Regrettably, I think you're right. I was only reading in The Register earlier today how Apple have just suddenly dropped their Xserve range of blade servers (apparently seriously suggesting that data centres buy Mac Pros and Mac Minis instead). What I've heard of the upcoming Lion O/S makes it sound as if they're trying to turn that into iOS, app store and all.

I like Logic and I like my Mac, but it does give one pause for thought, I have to say.

Chris

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jayzed
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: desmond]
      #873563 - 08/11/10 06:48 PM
Des,
the 'logic effect' has been around with PT for a while. Have you been over to the slutz forum at all? I think it probably started with M-Powered.

I am also concerned about Apple's committment to pro stuff. Do you know what's going on with Quicktime X and Pro 7? I can't make head nor tail of the Apple site.

I can't see that Quicktime X can be upgraded to a Pro version so I think I'm going to have to install QT7 for SL on my bosses Mac and use the reg key he previously bought. I just did a clean rebuild (with copy of prefs etc and reinstall of apps) and the functionality he's used to is gone.


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Forum AdminAdministrator



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: narcoman]
      #873569 - 08/11/10 07:05 PM
It's fact, guys.

http://www.youtube.com/v/NHJBpXJE0Sk&hl

See this SOS AES San Francisco YouTube channel video for further info from the horse's mouth (so to speak).

Ian G

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: jayzed]
      #873571 - 08/11/10 07:08 PM
Quote jayzed:



I was talking about previous comments which seemed to me to imply that plugin latency was somehow merged into the interface latency so there should be no internal track differences. That may be true for progs with ADC but PT lite before version 9 most definitely required manual intervention to deal with tracks hosting latency producing plugins that correctly reported their sample latency.




I double checked this yesterday. Remarkably few plugins cause any latency at all. So it's a "half" answer......:)


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desmond



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: jayzed]
      #873576 - 08/11/10 07:56 PM
Quote jayzed:

the 'logic effect' has been around with PT for a while. Have you been over to the slutz forum at all? I think it probably started with M-Powered.




But PT up until now has always required hardware. As soon as you drop that requirement (and the dongle fails), the noise-to-signal ratio drops tremendously, because then *everyone* has the software. And there is a world of difference even between the people who will buy M-Powered at £300 compared to the rest of the kiddies, many of whom won't even pay for software on principle...

Quote jayzed:

I am also concerned about Apple's committment to pro stuff. Do you know what's going on with Quicktime X and Pro 7? I can't make head nor tail of the Apple site.

I can't see that Quicktime X can be upgraded to a Pro version so I think I'm going to have to install QT7 for SL on my bosses Mac and use the reg key he previously bought. I just did a clean rebuild (with copy of prefs etc and reinstall of apps) and the functionality he's used to is gone.




Quicktime X is a new set of frameworks to replace Quicktime 7. However, the player with QX doesn't have a lot of the functionality that the QT7Pro player had, so a lot of people (including me) have QT7Pro installed as well.

Whether the player will get upgraded again, or whether you are just supposed to use other tools like iMovie or Final Cut, we don't know. Just (as usual with Apple) have to have a wait and see approach. At least you can still use QTPro7 for the time being. :shrugs:


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #873617 - 09/11/10 01:03 AM
I'm not gonna say that this dongle will never fail. But the security has certainly stepped up.

Pro Tools calls to the dongle fairly regularly. The longest time noted so far was 15 minutes and that was 15 minutes of just leaving the DAW playing and not doing anything.

I'd be willing to bet there's other security features as well with the new iloks.

I guess this will be a priority number 1 for hacks though.

I mean the kudos that goes round in such circles for being THE guy to hack Pro Tools 9.

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johnny h



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #873843 - 10/11/10 09:18 AM
Quote JamesSimpson:

I'm not gonna say that this dongle will never fail. But the security has certainly stepped up.

Pro Tools calls to the dongle fairly regularly. The longest time noted so far was 15 minutes and that was 15 minutes of just leaving the DAW playing and not doing anything.

I'd be willing to bet there's other security features as well with the new iloks.




I don't think it will last long. The lexicon plugins (ilok) were cracked pretty much immediately.


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: johnny h]
      #874024 - 10/11/10 07:42 PM
Many of the ilok plugs are cracked, but this is a new ilok mechanism.

And pro tools constantly (pretty much) calls to the ilok for the code. This means that you can't just fool it on startup (like most plugin hacks). You need to continuously fool it, over and over again.

And whose to say at what random points its going to call to the ilok and what it's going to ask for? Random combination of numbers, who knows.

Maybe I think copy protection is a little bit more complex than it really is.

Then again..... You have much more sophisticated systems for online banking, and you can have thousands of pounds invested in plugins on some systems.

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desmond



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #874026 - 10/11/10 07:55 PM
PT9 has been cracked already. So much for iLok2...

The hackers relish the challenge of attacking something new, even if they don't distribute it.

Edited by desmond (10/11/10 08:02 PM)


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #874054 - 10/11/10 11:46 PM
Haha nice, it appears I spoke to soon.

Although I can't seem to find any evidence?

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desmond



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #874059 - 10/11/10 11:55 PM
Quote JamesSimpson:

Although I can't seem to find any evidence?




I won't discuss this here or send links etc - you can choose to either disbelieve me, or take my word for it.

And no, I don't want pm's on this, and no, I do not have PT9, legit or otherwise, so don't ask. I merely follow some of this stuff from a geek and a casual interest point of view (in a similar way to having interests in encryption and computer security) and I like to know what's going on and how it affects me - and I mention it for relevance.


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #874060 - 11/11/10 12:10 AM
I didn't mean to say I didn't believe you, I just meant it hasn't made it's way to any blogs that it usually does.

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desmond



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: JamesSimpson]
      #874061 - 11/11/10 12:13 AM
Quote JamesSimpson:

I didn't mean to say I didn't believe you, I just meant it hasn't made it's way to any blogs that it usually does.




As I said - it has been cracked to run without the iLok. I didn't say it had been done by any of the popular cracking groups, or that it had been released onto the internets for the kids to download.

Although no doubt that will happen before too long...


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JamesSimpson



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #874063 - 11/11/10 12:15 AM
I didn't know there was such a thing as a popular cracking group but anyways....

I guess that means avid's main audio product is now a free for all only unlike apple they cannot subsidise the costs with the satisfaction that everybody has a mac.

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ken long



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #874751 - 14/11/10 07:16 AM
Quote Steve Hill:

Well, well. I said when Apple released Logic 8 at a knockdown price and dongle-free that it was an opening salvo in a war to kill PT. It's obviously had some effect, because this is the Avid response: to compete head on with Logic.

Now it comes down to deep pockets.

I'll put money on Logic 9 being £250 instead of £400 within 3 months.

No complaints: everyone's a winner on the consumer side.




I dont believe they ever were competing. DIfferent markets and uses. And a price war is irrelevant. I suspect there will be a mass migration to Pro Tools (once its stable of course!)

This is what I ve been waiting for. I left PT at 6.9 because of the hardware thing (ADC never bothered me). Logic is fun but syncing to picture is horrendous compared to PT. A little gutted that I forked out for Logic 9 earlier this year. Will move back as soon as funds allow. A great time indeed!

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ken long



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: narcoman]
      #874752 - 14/11/10 07:21 AM
Quote:


No more hands down arguments for Pro Tools I say.



Never was for any home users. Still hands down in post and other such markets - mainly because of pre-existing installations and current user tools.





Co-sign. It was always about better functionality for some things. Perhaps not for MIDI production - but defo for everything else IMO.

Spot Mode in Logic anyone?

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ken long



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: desmond]
      #874753 - 14/11/10 07:23 AM
Quote desmond:

I think TDM will still be here for a while yet.

The move makes sense for Avid, but any large changes will in general excite a whole bunch of people, and p*ss off another whole bunch of people.

For sure, there will be the Logic effect, which is a dumbing down of the general userbase as more and more entry-level, or illegal users jump onto the platform - give it six months and the online forums will be full of "Yo dudes, I jus' got the Tools Pro for making beatz n sh*t cos its supposed to be the boss so me mate dave says tell me how to make beatz from my computer keyboard thanx"

(Yes, it's as depressing as it sounds.) (Let's hope that Pace did a good job with the iLok2...)

However, this move should rejuvenate the platform and give it much more life at the project studio end, while hopefully reassuring pros that the platform continues to have life and investment for some time to come.

Certainly, there will be a lot more people like me, who are perhaps longtime Logic/Cubase/Sonar/Live/etc users, who are intrigued by PT but didn't want to slum it with the crippled PT LE, who can now afford a copy of PT9 to run alongside their existing DAW and give it a try, and for some compatibility with other PT studios/users/sessions. PT has now become a viable solution for these people (a sizeable market within the DAW world) where it wasn't before. And now there is a practical upgrade path as well.

As for all the Apple talk - I'm not sure how seriously committed Apple are to their pro userbase anymore. As was said above, I think Logic fulfils their needs in this area. I can't see them mobilising their forces to try and squash (or buy) the enemy. As I see it at boardroom level, the pro apps divisions continue to tick over while all the heads are turned towards IOS, iPhones/iPads, and the other consumer gadgets, then the Mac and Mac OSX.

I'd love to see Apple demonstrating as much commitment to pro audio as Avid are, but I'm not too optimistic on that...




Great post. But the DUC is already full of those people!

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ken long



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: desmond]
      #874754 - 14/11/10 07:28 AM
Quote desmond:

PT9 has been cracked already. So much for iLok2...

The hackers relish the challenge of attacking something new, even if they don't distribute it.




(not really)

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4TrackMadman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #874848 - 14/11/10 06:48 PM
The way I see it, PT has fallen from its high pedestal as the "Pro Software" and now has to duke it out directly with Acid, Sonar, Cubase, Tracktion, Logic and others. It might give them a kick in their development or shut down most of these as they now can't compete on the home market when every kiddo will have a copy of PT as it is the "pro" software.

The way I see it is that Pro Tools will probably be happy even if a kiddo used a cracked version - they become a user eventually as they get better on the software and move up to it. Better to use Pro Tools than the competition

Surprisingly, this could generate the new wave of audio engineers as Pro Tools is pretty much mired in industry dogma, once you get the kiddies on it you might get some robo-kid mastermind mixers that open it up creatively in ways they use in other software, like the synth based workstation, Reason, Fruity Loops, etc.

It is a sad day for most small to mid studio owners as now they also become obsolete, but it had to happen sooner or later. Lately I've been having a really hard time getting bands to record in the studio where I freelance as it has pretty much the same inputs as some of their "home" DAWs, only thing it has is advantage to track larger sessions, somewhat better sound isolation, and Pro Tools. Now, one of the three trump cards falls

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Jack Ruston



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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #874856 - 14/11/10 07:52 PM
Well look...Sure gear is important and we all obsess about it. I know I do. But what really matters is the personnel and the room. That's where the difference is. Studios that exist to provide a DAW shouldn't be in business. It's not what the job is. Those that provide more than that will have the potential to suceed. People can buy whatever version of whatever software they want. They tend to discover in short order that it isn't the solution to their problems.

Jack

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narcoman
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #874895 - 14/11/10 11:35 PM
indeed.... owning Protools has never been one of my "trump cards".....


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ken long



Joined: 21/01/08
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Re: Pro Tools drops reliance on hardware new [Re: DaleSmith]
      #875498 - 17/11/10 02:29 PM
Just watched the vid with Paul.

OMF as standard.



SOLD!!!!

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