I've been thoroughly enjoying Mike Senior's book and now I'm happily shopping for Avantone Mixcubes.

Based on the book it sounds like one active Mixcube in mono is the way to go, and I'm inclined to follow the advice strictly as I like powered monitors and it saves money buying just one. But I keep having a nagging feeling as I've always bought speakers in pairs

My budget allows for either one active speaker or a pair of passives. However the only amp I have on hand is an old HiFi Kenwood Receiver with 100W a channel. Is it ridiculous to consider using an amp like this when I'm trying to listen for mix accuracy?

A true mono reference is very useful. I prefer a single one personally. I don't think you'll have too many problems with that amp but the active ones are more convenient if you need to take your rig elsewhere.

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www.jackruston.com

I've also been thinking about the Mixcubes for some time now.

Thing is, you only really need one as you're buying it for overall mix balance / real world referencing, nothing more. Stereo and whatnot is what your nearfields are for.

But again, I dunno, I am sure at some point I'd want to listen to my mix in stereo and would be bummed that I don't have another Mixcube to do so. Worst case scenario for you, I guess, is buy one, try it out and if you feel the need for another one, get another one later on ?

Also, speakers just look better in pairs :-)

D.

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

They don't seem to sell them individually. Does anyone here own them and have they helped your mixdowns?

I have a pair of actives - funnily enough one of them recently blew on me and has been sent back for repair/replacement, and I did find myself thinking, do I actually need two of these anyway?

I have used them for mixing as I find with my full range speakers (and sub) the vocal can end up being too loud when I listen on smaller real-world speakers, so yes I would recommend them for balancing vocals in with all the other mid-range stuff.

They do sound quite 'box-y' though and 'cardboard-y' - so take a bit of getting used to... it's recommended to burn them in, not sure if mine have had enough hours of use to get there quite...

Ben

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The large print giveth and the small print taketh away

Bruce Swedien uses two, but I guess it comes down to how you intend to use the monitor(s). If it is soley for a mono check, you may never use it as a pair, but if you want to check as a system, it may be useful to have a pair.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

I have a pair of passives run off an Alesis amp. I have mono switch on my mOnotor control. I use the mixcubes much less than anticipated. Largely because I seem to get things pretty right with my PMCs. I do check mixes on them but generally rarely change anything. Overall I'd regard them as an optional extra as say compared to sorting out monitoring room treatment.

Bpb

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www.bickerton.co.nz

So the general consensus is that they don't help that much?

Quote johnny h:

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So the general consensus is that they don't help that much?

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If it is, then maybe I should speak up for them! To put it briefly, I'd be lost without some kind of Auratone-alike, and Avantone's version is the best modern version I've come across. If you want more details, then check out the review I did for the mag: Avantone Active Mixcube.

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Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio
A complete mixing method based around the techniques of the world's most famous producers.

Quote johnny h:

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They don't seem to sell them individually. Does anyone here own them and have they helped your mixdowns?

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They used to sell them as a "mono block" option, according to the site, but I'm not sure if they still do now.

Also, I'm not sure how many distributors would want to keep them in that format, if the option still exists at all.

D.

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

Here's one that does, for what it's worth :

https://www.kmraudio.com/brands/avantone/avantone-mixcube-monoblock.php

Rgds,

D.

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

Quote johnny h:

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So the general consensus is that they don't help that much?

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Well they're very good at what they do, it's just that I find I don't need them as much as I thought I would as my mixes seem to translate well anyway. But then perhaps I wouldn't know that unless I had them!

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

Well thanks to all for the input. Dale Pro Audio (NY) sells active singles.

Some of the comments by Mike re real world listening environments really resonated with me. My mixes sound pretty good on phones and on a decent Hifi system but the midrange oomph and lead instrument clarity has eluded me.
I've got my room well treated but my monitors are KRK V8s and I don't have the budget to go up right now. I've also run REW V5 numerous times and have found a decent sweet spot, but its not cuttin it on other playback systems.
(BTW my New DT880 Pros are burning in as I write. I can already tell these are going to make a great difference.)

I think as Darclinc said I can always go back and buy another later.

On a side note Avantone's website has a Flash alert that a limited edition Mixcube is coming out in gloss black. WHEN!! I don't think I can wait.

I saw they were talking about the limited gloss black versions on the site ... hmmmm ...

That would look very good next to my Adam's !

D.

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www.thirdfloormusic.com

Yeah, you know, I emailed Dale Pro and they said they didn't have them in stock but were looking into it. Couldn't wait. Bought the cream one.

The review in the magazine is what made me very interested in these things in the first place! However I do think its important to get some different opinions. The Mackies got good reviews too and they are (imo) very bad for mixing.

Quote johnny h:

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The Mackies got good reviews too and they are (imo) very bad for mixing.

---

I know what you mean. I've never really got on with them myself either. I never really felt I could tell what the low end was doing.

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Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio
A complete mixing method based around the techniques of the world's most famous producers.

Which Mackies are those that are referred to above - I scanned the post and couldn't see an initial reference?

Other question - if I want to test how my mixes will tranlate to "ordinary" systems, why don't I just use an "ordinary" speaker or pair - why not a £60 pair of PC speakers rather than a £375 pair of Mixcubes. Now my requirement is for checking rather than mixing, but am I missing something?

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Quote Andi:

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Other question - if I want to test how my mixes will tranlate to "ordinary" systems, why don't I just use an "ordinary" speaker or pair - why not a £60 pair of PC speakers rather than a £375 pair of Mixcubes. Now my requirement is for checking rather than mixing, but am I missing something?

---

You’re missing the fact that there is no definitive ‘ordinary’ system. My hi-fi system might be bass heavy – your windowsill CD player may be tinny. Which do you mix for, and which do you consider ‘ordinary’? Get an honest mix on honest, neutral speakers and you should find that your mixes translate to most anything – at least in a sense that it doesn’t sound any worse than other commercial material played on the same. Neutrality in speakers doesn't come cheap.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote Andi:

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Which Mackies are those that are referred to above - I scanned the post and couldn't see an initial reference?

Other question - if I want to test how my mixes will tranlate to "ordinary" systems, why don't I just use an "ordinary" speaker or pair - why not a £60 pair of PC speakers rather than a £375 pair of Mixcubes. Now my requirement is for checking rather than mixing, but am I missing something?

A.

---

The point of them isn't to sound crap, its to avoid the distortions in the time domain and frequency response inherent in ported speaker designs.

Perhaps I am missing the point. The real check that I want to do is to hear how the mix sounds with limited bottom and top-end and this works fine on cheaper speakers - I can tell if I need to add harmonic frequencies to compensate for lost bass or kick for example. If I lose a part of the mix I'll switch back to my proper monitors and work from there. I don't think I have a problem if the check speakers lose detail - although I certainly would if they were very peaky.

I'm not trying to optimise the mix for the check speakers and I'm not trying to mix on them. I wouldn't deliberately seek-out crap speakers but their role IS to be limited. I agree that neutrally-limited speakers are going to be the better option (which really answers my original question I guess) but I'm probably listening to them for about 10 - 15 minutes per mix at the outside.

Anyway, cream cabinets might clash with my wallpaper.

Cheers

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Quote johnny h:

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The point of them isn't to sound crap, its to avoid the distortions in the time domain and frequency response inherent in ported speaker designs.

---

That's certainly true, and extremely important -- especially for anyone using budget ported speakers which are likely to have far worse time domain performances than high-end ported speakers which will probably be better sorted.

But it's also about using something which places the emphasis very much on the midrange since that tends to the part of the spectrum that dominates in smaller systems like portable radios, smaller Tvs, small integrated CD player systems, iPod docks and so on.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I had a pair, one got wet so now I just use a mono one. I'd say go mono.

They are great btw and every time I flick it on from my dynaudio's I can make loads of mix decisions, changes very quickly, flick back to my dynudio's and it doesn't sound any different.. so they certainly have an edge even over that level of ported design

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Producer etc

I stole a pair of Aletec Lansing cheapie desk-tops from the kids yesterday and went to install them as a secondary set of speakers - 3.5 mm terminated lead on the speakers, XLRs on the M-Patch - sometimes it just all seems like too much trouble.

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

They seem great. What have people gone for, active or passive? What kind of amp is sufficient to drive them?

Quote Andi:

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I stole a pair of Aletec Lansing cheapie desk-tops from the kids yesterday and went to install them as a secondary set of speakers - 3.5 mm terminated lead on the speakers, XLRs on the M-Patch - sometimes it just all seems like too much trouble.

---

I'm sure they will prove handy as an extra reference, but if they are dual-driver they may not prove as useful.

I'm on the lookout for some cheap 'single driver' monitors, so I can hear the critical midrange without crossover anomalies, and without bass reflex ports so I can hear what little bass there is without 'one-note low-end' hype.

So far I've tracked these down for further investigation:

1. Altec Lansing FX2020EAM (3-inch drivers, USB-powered, £40 a pair)
http://www.scan.co.uk/products/altec-lansing-expressionist-classic-20-ster eo-pc-speaker?utm_source=google+shopping&utm_medium=google+shopping

2. LaCie-FireWire-Loudspeakers (£30 a pair)
http://www.purelygadgets.co.uk/LaCie-FireWire-Loudspeakers---108540/mainpr oduct/view/17085-NA

3. Altec Lansing BXR1220 (~2-inch drivers, USB-powered, £20 a pair)
http://www.maplin.co.uk/bxr1220-2.0-stereo-speakers-344760?c=froogle&u =344760&t=module

At the moment number 1 looks like the best purchase, due to their larger 3-inch drivers for lower bass. Here’s a pic:




Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Quote Martin Walker:

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1. Altec Lansing FX2020EAM (3-inch drivers, USB-powered, £40 a pair)
2. LaCie-FireWire-Loudspeakers (£30 a pair)
3. Altec Lansing BXR1220 (~2-inch drivers, USB-powered, £20 a pair)

---

Great bit of detective work, Martin, and those suggestions make a good complement to the slightly higher-end 'Auratone Substitute' suggestions I suggest here. The only thing to watch for is actually how sealed the box is in practice -- although I suppose you could always wrap them in gaffer if you noticed any draughts!

--------------------
Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio
A complete mixing method based around the techniques of the world's most famous producers.

My (erm, well - the kids') Altecs are single driver models. I'll pop over to Maplin at the weekend and knock-up a dual-xlr to stereo jack lead and see what happens. Trouble is that the only place they will really fit is where my cactus collection currently sits so that's probably going to ruin my whole mojo-thang.

I have been researching alternatives to the Mixcubes and there are a few that look interesting but then there are any number of NS-10 look-alikes too. A lot of the mini monitors appear to have some kind of bass enhancement which pretty-well rules them out for this purpose. Part of me feels that the Mixcubes are severly overpriced, but if they work then the time they could save will soon make-up for that.

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

You can always check the Behritone once it's released.


http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/C5A.aspx

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TritonExtrMOSS/EX800, NordRack2, ATC1, D550/XV5080/MKS70/MKS7/MKS50/MKS80/S550/JP8080/Ju60/JD990, Blofeld, Mopho, TG77/An1X, ESQM, Emax, Esynth, AkaiS5k/MPC1k, Indigo2, Rogue, Machinedrum, ProOne

Quote Mike Senior:

---

Great bit of detective work, Martin, and those suggestions make a good complement to the slightly higher-end 'Auratone Substitute' suggestions I suggest here. The only thing to watch for is actually how sealed the box is in practice -- although I suppose you could always wrap them in gaffer if you noticed any draughts!

---

Hi Mike,

Hah!

I actually got the chance to listen to one of your other suggestions this afternoon - the Fostex 6301, and was quite impressed. It's REALLY heavy for its size too, although once again a bit expensive at a typical £180 each.

As for the forthcoming Behritone's, these look like close enough copies to seriously dent Avantone sales at the right price - I think we may be close to a more affordable specifically-designed Auratone substitute. In the US the pricing of $99 each for the faux-wood C5A Auratone vintage version and $119 for the more sophisticated piano-black C50A Avantone clone sounds great.

However, the projected UK prices I've seen are all over the place, with confusion about whether the price is for singles or pairs - I’ve seen anything from £99 to £180 for a single C5A so far

If it’s £99 I’ll buy one


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Those Behritones are rubbish - my studio is oak, not teak so what's the use of that?!? Oh, and some of the pictures look photoshopped which probably isn't too good a sign - unless I misunderstood and they are really a plugin.


A

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Quote Martin Walker:

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I actually got the chance to listen to one of your other suggestions this afternoon - the Fostex 6301, and was quite impressed. It's REALLY heavy for its size too, although once again a bit expensive at a typical £180 each.

---

Martin!

i picked up a pair of 2nd hand 6301s off ebay about a year ago for about a £100. in good shape too. the things seem to last for ever and are build to take punishment.
can highly recommend them.

they are a good compliment to my AE22s and NS1000s.
i am a bit obsessed with non-ported speakers.
not sure if i would ever stoop so low for a 'Behritone' though!

anyway, just wanted to recommend the 6301s as a good alternative.

Sid

Quote DePulse:

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Behritone

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That's interesting. I'll certainly try to get my hands on one of those, because (as Martin so rightly says) if it's priced well then it could well be a real boon to cash-strapped mix engineers.

--------------------
Mixing Secrets for the Small Studio
A complete mixing method based around the techniques of the world's most famous producers.

No news from Behringer, can't even SOS get a pair to test?

Did Behringer take part in the Messe? Usually they have loads of new products every year, but there is no pressreleases at all.

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TritonExtrMOSS/EX800, NordRack2, ATC1, D550/XV5080/MKS70/MKS7/MKS50/MKS80/S550/JP8080/Ju60/JD990, Blofeld, Mopho, TG77/An1X, ESQM, Emax, Esynth, AkaiS5k/MPC1k, Indigo2, Rogue, Machinedrum, ProOne

Blue Aran is advertising the C50a at £86.08 plus a fiver P&P for a single unit - I'm very tempted. Just to note - the Behringers are rated at 30W RMS at 0.1% THD, no sensitivity quoted, the Avantone actives at 60W no THD quoted, 94dB at 1W/1m : the Behringers are Class D amps (hence no cooling fins I guess) and the Avantones are Class AB. I've never used class D amps for monitoring?


If anyone is tempted note that Blue Arran has pretty unfriendly return rules.

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Their rules can be as unfriendly as they like. They are a UK based company selling mail order, the Distance Selling regulations apply whether they like it or not.

Andy

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When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro.

Quote zenguitar:

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Their rules can be as unfriendly as they like. They are a UK based company selling mail order, the Distance Selling regulations apply whether they like it or not.

Andy

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Andy

Totally right, just pointing out that some vendors are happy for you to buy and try, these guys are not. They are a few quid cheaper and make the point you can return UNUSED item. I figure that most folks here would need to try them out - and may prefer to not get into an debate about the details of distance selling.

Personally I hope to encourage someone else to buy one first and then tell me if it's any good.

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Here’s another candidate for our US brethren. It incorporates a 3-inch long-throw driver, is magnetically shielded and looks pretty solidly built.

At $120 it’s also good value for money, although being passive you’ll need an amp to go with it. International shipping adds between $44 and $64 though, making it less attractive over here.

www.orbaudio.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=56




Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Here's another suggestion :-

http://www.tivoliaudio.com/products/table-radios/model-one-reg-radio-in-cl assic-walnut-beige.html

Features a stereo 1/8" Aux input that sums to mono. Plus the added bonus of being able to listen to the radio if the band's rubbish or add radio effects a la I'm The Walrus.

Seems a lot more expensive than when I bought one but perhaps I picked mine up on ebay. I seem to remember it being in the £75 price range but looking online they're £100 - £145 at the moment.

Ah, but you CAN still buy the loudspeaker alone for a budget £70 inc VAT:

www.tivoli-audio.co.uk/tivoli-radio/Portable/Model_10_speakers.htm



Once again a full-range 3-inch driver, but I suspect it could be a ported cabinet


Martin

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YewTreeMagic