What institutes or Uni's etc. have you studied at?

the university of love.

How were your marks?

Quote nojdekko:

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What institutes or Uni's etc. have you studied at?

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Why would you like to know?..

How will such knowledge enrich your life?

Quote nojdekko:

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What institutes or Uni's etc. have you studied at?

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Dundee College.

Quote narcoman:

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the university of love.

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Sounds interesting. Have they got a guide that I can look over listing curricular and extra curricular activities available?

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ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog

Quote Mowens800:

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Quote nojdekko:

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What institutes or Uni's etc. have you studied at?

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Why would you like to know?..

How will such knowledge enrich your life?

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Hi, actually I'm interested in this question (and answers!) too. It's really helpful in choosing one of them for myself.

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Per aspera ad astra!

I got a job as a runner after school. I was lucky

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http://www.musicproductioncourses.net

May I suggest you do a proper degree like physics and learn music production yourself and on short courses? You'll be taken a lot more seriously outside AND inside the industry.

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http://www.musicproductioncourses.net

Go to Leeds College of Music. Or another Music Conservatoire.

But remember that whilst the bigger Unis might have 'better' systems - Leeds Met for example has huge mixing desks and all that kind of thing - a conservatoire will surround you with some of the most talented musicians in the country and some of the most experienced staff in the country. And therefore should give you a better education therefore!

Be careful with your funding options though, all creative arts only unis are losing ALL of their funding within the next 3-6 years, with the possible exception of the London Academy of Music? But that's hugely classical and really shouldn't be of interest production-wise as far as I know.

University of Leeds
Goldsmiths
University of Westminster

...though asking which universities one has attended isn't the same thing as asking which courses, and what one thought of them.

As has been suggested earlier in this thread and many times before, a music or electronics engineering degree with some music tech study and practice in your own time are more likely to be of use in the future, assuming you're thinking of this as a career. If it's just for your own enjoyment and edification there are some lovely courses: just don't expect employers to be impressed by the 'qualification'.

Quote Edd M:

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Go to Leeds College of Music. Or another Music Conservatoire.

But remember that whilst the bigger Unis might have 'better' systems - Leeds Met for example has huge mixing desks and all that kind of thing - a conservatoire will surround you with some of the most talented musicians in the country and some of the most experienced staff in the country. And therefore should give you a better education therefore!

Be careful with your funding options though, all creative arts only unis are losing ALL of their funding within the next 3-6 years, with the possible exception of the London Academy of Music? But that's hugely classical and really shouldn't be of interest production-wise as far as I know.

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Ok. So which institute should I enroll to for the best range of music production courses available?

Charlie

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how to treat eczema | breast actives ingredients

Some very, very, very, very bad advice here!

If you cannot get onto the Surrey Tonmeister course, you stand little or no chance of gainful employment in music production in the UK.

The industry needs so very few graduates, that no matter how good Leeds et al may be (or think they are) they do not have the reputation of the Tonmeister and therefore are a waste of time.

Surrey has expanded its intake of students and has therefore diminished the chances of all the others even more. It must also be pointed out that the Surrey Tonmeister (but ONLY the Tonmeister, not the D-course, etc.) is a first-class centre for industry networking. There are many composers, arrangers, agents, engineers and studio managers who came from there and they tend to sniff out the better graduates when handing out jobs.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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If you cannot get onto the Surrey Tonmeister course, you stand little

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With all due respect... BULLSHIT. I know loads of people who have not done the Tonmesiter yet are happily working and earning a living in 'this industry' - meaning music and/or other audio production or live sound.

Whether or not other degrees help is a completely different question, but the assumption that you have to do the Tonmeister (good as it no doubt is) to carve out a career in audio is laughable. Please stop perpetuating this myth.

with respect, it's not BS in essence... although the message is perhaps delivered more like a broadside than a detailed analysis....


if you compare the proportionate number of graduates with salaried jobs coming from Tonmeister, to EVERY OTHER COURSE IN THE UK, you'll find that with the Surrey course, not being employed is the exception, as opposed to the other way round ...



the difference , essentially being that of it involving a paid salary from an industry employer, rather than a self employed freelance business .

easy enough to check on.... to a quick head count at the assorted UK based manufacturers , and see how many staff are tonmesiter graduates.... it's a very sobering exercise.... in some cases, virtually ALL technical staff under 35 are Surrey graduates,.




YES, you CAN make a living without being a Tonmesiter graduate.... this i know for sure..... I do it myself... ..

but the vast majority of people in such a situation are self employed....

not salaried.


and the traditional (arguably hidebound) view is that a Salary is preferable.


(and actually, i'd agree.... i'd quite like someone to present me with my next few years work, laid out neatly without me having to go find it.... )

erm... it is BS, and you've said as much yourself. The quotation in my post was truncated. It mentioned 'gainful employment' That does not preclude freelance work, and it does not necessarily mean salaried positions. The Tonmeister is great. I've met plenty of people who have done it and it has stood them in great stead. Just like doing PPE at OXbridge stands you in good stead in the Civil Service. In both sectors, the qualification is good, challenging and useful. But in neither is it *necessary*. I just get tired of people trotting out those same lines about the Tonmeister. There are other good places too: acoustics at the Uni of Southampton, there's the NFTS in Beaconsfield... etc. Sure there are plenty of crap courses around, but I hate it when people try to perpetuate the myth that you *have* to go to this place or that place to get into this career or that.

The reality is that the industry is very much a freelance one, and that this will only become more so in the future. Salaried positions are dying out in a whole host of industry sectors, including this one.

Quote Mixedup:

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There are other good places too: acoustics at the Uni of Southampton, there's the NFTS in Beaconsfield... etc.

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The question was about music production, not acoustics, not sound for film and TV, but music production.

All the other music technology courses do not require students to learn about orchestration, arrangements, modes and all that jazz. All the other courses do not require students to be able to read music and most do not even require students to be able to read a circuit diagram.

If I go out into our front yard and lift a rock, I can find someone who knows a bit about ProTools and has a degree to prove it!

ah yes.... the old "I know ProTools" crowd. Until you give them some work to do on it......

Do Surrey Tonmeister (new one on me BTW) pay JAMES to say they are good? Because if they don't, they must be rubbish!

What a mess!

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http://www.musicproductioncourses.net

I think the last few posts are highlighting the inherent problems of sweeping generalisations here.

The very best students -- those who are strongly motivated, intelligent, and hard working with good people skills and boundless perserverence -- will always rise towards the top. These people will almost certainly be able to secure themselves what ever kind of employment they desire --freelance or salaried -- and almost regardless of the educational establishment they came from.

PW and I do a lot of college and university visits and, usually (another sweeping generalisation), out of the 40 or 50 people placed before us in our Q&A sessions, maybe three or four will stand out as having what it takes to succeed.

If you go to Surrey or LIPA and some of the other more highly regarded establishments, that number changes to maybe three or four that you're not entirely convinced will make it!

That's the difference -- and that's what the Bladder and the BBQ lighter are talking about.

Anyone can make it if they want it enough, regardless of their circumstances. But for anyone who wants to maximise their chances, there is no denying that courses like the Tonmeister and LIPA stack things much more strongly in their favour -- particularly when it comes to finding a job at the end of the course. Employers go to these colleges and ask for people. For everywhere else the students have to go find the employers!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Mixedup:

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I hate it when people try to perpetuate the myth that you *have* to go to this place or that place to get into this career or that.

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In vocational studies, that is EXACTLY what happens!

Here is a part of something I have written on the subject, taken from a rough draft.

How to get a useless qualification

I used to get quite agitated about failing businesses and managers who refuse to do what necessary to turn their businesses around, or avoid impending difficulties. But over the years, I have mellowed. “Let them!” I say. “We’ve done our bit, written our report and made our recommendations and with a bit of luck, they will have shelled out our modest fee.”

If someone in business refuses to believe something that they are told, that is not really my problem. As long as they have paid their fee and the facts, as we have presented them, are watertight and accurate, what do I care, if a hi-fi manufacturer refuses to believe a benchmarking survey, or a food manufacturer refuses to accept a trend analysis? I am even past caring, when politicians refuse to understand that the laws of physics and economics also apply to them.

But when institutions of further education deliberately lie to young people, in order to feather their own nests, I get angry.

I had better explain -

When I was a youngster, getting into university was something only about one school-leaver in twenty was able to do. Today, most western societies aim to get at least one quarter of their school-leavers into university and many aim to get over half of those entering the job market to have a degree of some sort. The others are supposed to have some sort of further education, such a technical qualification or certificate as a skilled journeyman.

This development has lead to a vast and confusing array of university courses, some of which are as good or even better and even more selective than in my days as a student - but also some that are prepared to take just about anybody, as long as they are warm.

The biggest give-away for poor quality of graduates is always the entry requirements. Another is, very obviously, the quality of the graduates and this is set by the severity and depth of the interim and final exams and other work, such as the thesis. If a course of study is easy to get onto and the finals are not too difficult either, then prospective employers will notice. Every HR department of a major company will have databases of every university course imaginable, including employment records, earnings and the quality of the lecturers.

But the prospective employer also notices something else and that is how far up-stream the candidate has been swimming. Pure maths is far up-stream, golf course management is very down-stream.

Look at it this way - the harder a subject is to study, the further up-stream you have been swimming. Pure mathematics is a difficult subject. At least, it is regarded as such by most people. Applied maths is seen as being a bit easier. The calculations behind fluid dynamics, electronics or economics is more readily understandable by most, than, say indeterminate polynomial equations (though many pure mathematicians may and do disagree with me here!) So you see, pure maths is up-stream from applied maths.

A mathematician can do anything, from being a stockbroker, to calculating insurance premiums. I know one woman with a doctorate in fractal analysis, who studies places of work, another who became technology editor for a leading scientific magazine.

If we go further down-stream, we come to something like an electronics engineer or an economist. Both can do many things, but the electronics engineer cannot calculate the cross-price elasticity of demand for butter and margarine, any more than the economist can calculate a complex voltage divider. Both studies are easier to comprehend and have become not only more specialised, but more vocational.

Both can do a wide variety of tasks. Not as many as the mathematician, but I know one electronics engineer who has become technical editor of a recording magazine and a brilliant economist who manages a recording studio. But if you study economics, you have to be a bit more careful where you attend college, than if you had studied pure maths. Already, potential employers are beginning to look for specialist universities or courses, such as the London School of Economics.

A bit further down-stream from the economist, is the business studies graduate. Less maths again, but a great deal of commercial law, accounting and other more practical things. And again, we are beginning to look for one of the leading universities that specialises in business studies. If the business studies graduate goes on to do an MBA, he or she will have to be quite careful, which course they attend, as only a handful World wide really do have the reputation many hope they have.

Where things get a little murky and not a little dishonest, is when completely and purely vocational courses, such as media studies, golf course management, music production and a whole host of others, are offered as being a real start to a real career. I cannot speak for golf course management (I do not even possess a set of golf bats) but I do know about music production. On Planet Earth, there are about ten universities that offer a first class education in music production.

Although music production is an extremely specialised field and the opportunities for employment are very, very few and far between, competition to get onto these few courses is fierce. For the top three, all in Germany, it is a six-year course and candidates are expected to be proficient pianists before they may even apply for the week-long series of entrance tests. Nearly all these courses all carry the title ‘Tonmeister’ (Masters of Sound) including those in Holland, Switzerland and Great Britain, but there are hundreds upon hundreds of similar courses, that only offer a totally fictitious pipe-dream. Some of these even give themselves the title Tonmeister, but the employment market, be it freelance or salaried, is looking for attendance at one of those ten universities.

We are very far down-stream from pure mathematics, so the courses, to be successful and offer genuine opportunities of employment, have to be every bit as rigorous as a master of mathematics.

At first sight, swimming down-stream may seem like an easy option. When music production does not have to involve a formal knowledge of music, being able to read a score, or even be able to play an instrument and your ‘thesis’ is to record a few songs, played by your mates in the college studio and write an essay about it, then getting that degree paper is easy.

It’s what follows that is so hard. Opportunities are just not there within the music industry and nobody outside the industry is really interested in a graduate of a course that is both easy to complete and very specific in nature.

When universities tell potential students that easy courses such as these offer real chances of a good job, knowing full-well that quite the opposite is true, one is forced to speculate on the legality of such activities. If a university were to claim that a course of study could lead to a successful career as a recording engineer and that several graduates from last year’s crop had indeed done that, knowing full-well, that exactly the opposite is true and that the only ‘successes’ were a handful of graduates, desperate to get some sort of career going, started poorly financed home operations, that would have to be a criminal offence.

Yet I have seen many universities do exactly that.

And the same dismal story exists right across many of these down-stream, vocational courses. A very few top courses that are extremely difficult to be accepted for and many, many others, easy to enrol with, but of no use outside of their specialist fields and of little value within.

Like so many con-victims, few graduates are prepared to admit that their subsequent lives have been ruined and that they would have been better off, doing electronics and learning music in their spare time.

Nobody wants to have to admit that they have been ripped off.

Cheers RB.

I'll be printing this and sticking it on the fridge for my young'un. He's not heading towards any kind of music course but I suspect this goes for many 'creative' courses and he fancies being a writer. He's bloody good too but could go astray when deciding where to study.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Well, whilst I am still here, my advice to your youngster would be to study the subject that he wants to write about.

Hmmm... when I last went to university (yes, second time around it was a 'creative' 'vocational' course, the uni pulled no punches in telling us all how the industry works. How everything is freelance. How you make your own luck. How you need to be a real master at your art, as well as having a decent head for business etc etc etc. I have to say thy were pretty realistic about this. Perhaps they're in a minority... though I know former students of other institutions who've said the same.

I also have to say that it was not Tonmeister or LIPA... and that there are many of my former course mates earning a living in 'the industry' in various different roles, many freelancing, but also several with salaried jobs in the UK and elsewhere.

Of course the universities are keen to highlight what it is they sell. But to say that they all promise a successful career is untrue.

Quote Matt Houghton:

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But to say that they all promise a successful career is untrue.

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Which is a statement I never made. I always write with precision and I stated 'many'. Not 'all', not 'most' or even 'a large minority', but 'many'.

Also a good idea to define 'career in the music business'...

I have several chums with successful careers in the music biz...

In retail as managers of shops or salesmen (in decline) or with distributors or manufacturers. Which is great and a good way to enjoy working in the biz - get to meet other musos and engineers (maybe even some 'names'), get to play with the latest (or vintage) gear, get discounts on gear, etc..

But you don't need to rack up £thousands in student fees on a Music Tech course to do that. One of the best Sales And Marketing people for one of the top manufacturers I know was previously a photocopier salesman with a handful of 'O' levels!

But if students coming from these Music Tech courses end up in retail, I guess the (ahem) 'university' can legitimately claim that XX students got jobs in the industry even if that's a bit misleading.

But then there are the back room jobs - the technicians, the programmers, etc..

Then there are graphic designers, industrial designers, etc..

But a music tech 'degree' is a waste of time for those disciplines and you'd be FAR better served getting a 'proper' degree in Electronics, Computer Sciences, Graphic Design, etc..

Either way, the Music Tech course is looking somewhat redundant - i.e. you can get a job in music biz retail with just a 'hobby knowledge/experience' in the subject and for a back room job, a proper degree in an established discipline is the only way (and transferable).

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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Also a good idea to define 'career in the music business'...

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Heheheh... I know what you mean! I'm working as a journalist, but I get to play with gear on a regular basis... and no doubt my uni classed that in their stats as a job in 'the industry'!

But seriously, there are plenty of graduates from my place in 'practitioner' (to borrow the academic buzzword) roles: successful media composers, live engineers for major touring acts, film & tv sound etc etc. Curiously few mix engineers pumping out the commercial hits... but I'll get there one day

I still agree that you make your own luck. And £27+k is a steep price to pay. But some courses and the access to facilities and collaboration they provide are not without merit.

Quote Matt Houghton:

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But some courses and the access to facilities and collaboration they provide are not without merit.

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Some being the operative word. As an official SOS rep, ol' chap, your endorsements of such courses, bizarrely, carries weight amongst the newbies. Careful of what you say; personally I find it unacceptable that you are defending such an "academic" route - there is very little merit on MOST of the courses. My opinion and experience leads me to conclude most are money rinsing borderline criminals, especially that three lettered one so peppered amongst your pages..... advertising I understand, SOS employee direct endorsement, I do not.

YOu could argue "but it's about balance"... well , it isn't. We're a few individuals (the crusaders of love, I call us ) and the other side has millions of dollars of revenues and a strong advertising presence. They also exploit the naivety and ambition of young people. I have no issue with the advertising, but please - no personal endorsements from SOS staff....
Work in this industry is entirely self motivated - courses do you no good. (unless one of the prescribed top end ones - and even then they aren't requirements).

It's not about balance, and I don't feel that it's irresponsible to stick my head above the parapet and state what I sincerely believe to be true. I feel that it's necessary when people enquire about courses to correct the distorted views of music production education that prevail — whether those views are that it's worthwhile or that it's pointless. The debate seems so ridiculously polarised, and the truth is, as is so often the case, somewhere in between the two poles.

I'm aware that there are some exploitative individuals and institutions out there. I'm aware that some students enter education with an unrealistic idea of what it will do for them, of how much personal effort they need to invest, and of the state of the (particularly music) recording industry if they're considering it seriously as a 'career'.

You make your own luck. I think that in the past *some* (more than many people here seem to think) courses can be well worthwhile for *some* people. But you need to do some real digging to find out what sort of access to facilities you get on your course - what are the studios like? Are they lavishing cash on huge Neve or SSL consoles that you don't need? How much is teaching people to use Pro Tools etc, and how much about actually researching, learning and applying skills? How much time can you spend in the studio outside of course projects? How much time are you going to have to spend in doing pointless essays to meet the 'academic' requirements of a degree? And so on...

The fees situation for degrees in the UK may well change for many people whether a degree is worthwhile. You could get an awful lot of studio time or one to one tuition for that money. I'm sure that there are people who would happily take a class of six for a year for £54k in fees for example, and give one-to-one tuition in the process (any takers? ).

It's not all about degrees and diplomas, though. You have to remember that if people have an interest in this art, that they need to start learning somewhere — and unless you enter the studio as a musician, there are very few 'tea-boy' positions left. Some people are fine reading up and learning through trial and error in their spare time; some will learn better a different way. That applies to music production as much as it does any other discipline. So I still maintain that cramming as much knowledge and practice in as short a period of time as you can will be of real benefit to some people.

I just pray that people don't go blind into doing a degree or diploma. If I were to consider spending £27k on a car, or on anything else, I know I'd be doing a hell of a lot of research before I committed to a purchase!

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SOS Reviews Editor

in fairness, at age 18-19 or so, getting to spend 27 grand on a car , you're going to buy a shiniest flashiest silly thing with little practicality about the long term use of it....

even if you're relatively mature and sensible, it'll only mean that you'll make it one that you can possibly persuade an insurer to cover.... probably trying to get parents to insure it with you as named driver to try and save some premium cost....

it's what teenagers generally do....

(4 out of 5 of my kids are at , or have passed thru that age bracket.... i have first hand experience of what they'd LIKE to do...... )


often, the hormonally challenged, less than exceptionally brilliant minds out there will make the same sort of choice with their education if allowed to do so....

at this point "advice" from teachers, careers officers, and parents is critical...


i sometimes feel that what's as useful as anything else, is teaching parents that they have a choice as well after all, very very few students are going to make it living on just student loans... usually those parents who are going to be asked to contribute could do well by their children if they insist on a lack of mickey mouse-ness about the education they are paying for.


(Matt, you wait till it's YOUR kids at this stage.... it's really not even remotely funny...... )

Matt - with the greatest of respect, you don't employ people in this sector, nor do you work in it in terms of who these "courses" are aimed at. I employ a number of people in the biz and put projects totalling around $40million through the industry each year. Music tech courses have had a direct and negative effect on the biz... sure they aren't the only problem but they have undermined a classically skilled set of workers for a mass set of wannabes. Thats not to say some shouldn't pursue dreams, goals and ambitions.... but these courses (now under a pathetic private university system) are about rinsing cash from wallets, not about high standards of education. Capped places are needed.

The number of graduates who have entered successful careers post (ho ho - gettit?) music tech course are very small. Perhaps the course you are talking about has good connections - I don't know... but making broad statements about courses having values based on a limited set of experiences or contacts is a direct affront to the reality of those within the industry. I don't normally mind a challenge in argument, but you are a darn SOS editor! Think about that for a second and how much weight that carries in these pages over mine words. The organised printed word is worth more to the newbie than the words of "narcoman". This isn't about me making a point over yours, but rather your standing as an SOS editor making a point.

I've spoken at length many times (I'm banned from a certain three letter audio-corp) against the predatory nature of music tech production courses. I am part of a small lobby group trying to get legislation in place for such "university courses" - there are problems in other areas but I'm concerned about my own sector. It has become more and more difficult to have a reasonable balanced debate against these courses. It is very hard to fight a multi-millionaire on this matter. We're making small steps, but posts like the one you made are seen as an SOS endorsement. As I say, I understand advertising but not editorial on the matter. Posts from SOS members are perceived as editorial....

As one of the editors of SOS your views are taken as gospel and truth by many readers. In such a professional capacity I really don't think you SHOULD be airing your personal views. In matters SOS, whether you like it or not, you are one of the voices of SOS. SOS is seen by many (and quite rightly) as an organisation of expertise.

I'm not decrying your right to have any opinion you like - but I AM criticising you doing it under the moniker of an SOS editor.

I did not know - until the day I had to do a company presentation on the future of tape-based video editing - that small Japanese men, when truly angry, could actually levitate.

But there I was, at the corporate headquarters of their broadcast division and I clearly saw daylight between the soles of their shoes and the Italian tiles. The problem (for them) was that the presentation was not of my opinion, but of findings drawn from an in-depth body of research done by a whole team, asking 100 facility owners / managers (ranging from major broadcasters, down to the bloke who does wedding videos) 100 questions about the way they worked and what they would buy next - and all factored by their budgets.

They hated what they heard and read and chose, rather than to accept what was stated, to argue every point.

Nothing new about that - every time you tell a business (or anybody, come to that) that they are making a mistake, they spend some time, having difficulties accepting the truth. The clever ones get over it and formulate a plan to repair whatever has gone wrong. The fools refuse to accept the facts.

Which brings me to this -

Quote Matt Houghton:

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I feel that it's necessary when people enquire about courses to correct the distorted views of music production education that prevail — whether those views are that it's worthwhile or that it's pointless. The debate seems so ridiculously polarised, and the truth is, as is so often the case, somewhere in between the two poles.

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No, it is not. The facts are very plain and are as Hugh has put it. In a room full of 'Tonmeister' students, there will be a small handful who might not make it as a successful career. In a room full of students from some other institution, there will be fewer than a handful who might make it.

We occasionally get visiting classes, students and students on work experience to our studio and, when I do a follow-up to find out what has happened to them, I see that statistic being repeated over and over again.

Hmmm... I can't help thinking that perhaps I'm being misunderstood here. Points we all seem to agree on...

• Not everyone makes it.
• We hate when institutions 'prey' on would-be students in this field or any other, promising a career-making qualification when there isn't one.
• The content of pretty much *all* courses could be improved a great deal, some (much) more than others.
• Degrees in more traditional subjects, such as physics, electronic engineering and music are likely to be more useful in other walks of life... and can be genuinely useful in this industry.
• The vast majority of people aspiring to 'success in the music production industry' won't achieve the success they crave.
• Many people who dream of 'being a producer' have a romantic and wholly unrealistic notion of what that entails; and probably have very few ways of finding out.

In fact there are very few points I really take issue with here. The key one is this:

Quote The Red Bladder:

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If you cannot get onto the Surrey Tonmeister course, you stand little or no chance of gainful employment in music production in the UK.

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I take issue with it because it is untrue, and it is not what Hugh said. Plenty of courses won't help you get anywhere. Tonmeister is widely regarded as the best, and it will increase your chances significantly. But you do not need to get a Tonmeister to work in this industry — whatever you might believe about the worth or otherwise of other courses — and, in fact, plenty of people meet with success without any qualification.

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SOS Reviews Editor

Quote The Red Bladder:

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I did not know - until the day I had to do a company presentation on the future of tape-based video editing - that small Japanese men, when truly angry, could actually levitate.

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Quote The Red Bladder:

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They hated what they heard and read and chose, rather than to accept what was stated, to argue every point.

Nothing new about that - every time you tell a business (or anybody, come to that) that they are making a mistake, they spend some time, having difficulties accepting the truth. The clever ones get over it and formulate a plan to repair whatever has gone wrong. The fools refuse to accept the facts.

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Ha! I'm thinking of those 'Hotel Inspector' and 'Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares' TV programmes. Maybe there's some mileage in a new series called 'The Bladder's Music Tech Buffoonery' with Narco as executive producer!

But it may also be worth pointing out that, irrespective of student loans/fees, which govt did what and when and who's to blame and what the current govt are doing (or not), etc., there is absolutely no need for anyone to spend 3 years (and £30k+) on a 'course' that can be effectively taught in as many months at the level most music tech 'polyversities' teach it (i.e. essentially hobbyist level). There is, for example, no reason why good gain staging practices from source to recorder can't be taught and understood in a day - it doesn't need a two month module to be followed by a three month module on EQ. Sure, if you want/need to get into the analogue circuitry/DSP/maths/electronics/whatever behind those practices (such as an accredited Tonmeister course might do) that may be valid but I reckon that to cover the basics, one month and maybe £1,500 is sufficient to give young people the basics - enough to enjoy/understand their hobby more fully and have the grounding to formulate some kind of 'career' if they choose to ... assuming the student has sufficient gumption and drive and 'people skills' (loathsome phrase!) to carve one out for themselves. And if the student doesn't have the ambition to create their own opportunities in the biz, ah well, c'est la vie... only a month and £1,500 potentially wasted, not three years and their parents re-mortgaging their house and selling off the family silver for a useless piece of paper!



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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Matt Houghton:

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In fact there are very few points I really take issue with here. The key one is this:

Quote The Red Bladder:

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If you cannot get onto the Surrey Tonmeister course, you stand little or no chance of gainful employment in music production in the UK.

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I take issue with it because it is untrue, and it is not what Hugh said. Plenty of courses won't help you get anywhere. Tonmeister is widely regarded as the best, and it will increase your chances significantly. But you do not need to get a Tonmeister to work in this industry — whatever you might believe about the worth or otherwise of other courses — and, in fact, plenty of people meet with success without any qualification.

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I think you're mis-reading that quote Matt.

the important words are

"If you cannot get onto"



which does NOT amount to


if you did not go to....




The entry requirements, limited spaces, and interview process ensure that successful applicants are by and large, very intelligent, VERY hard working, highly self motivated and utterly committed....


such people , would reasonably be expected to make successful use of any course they chose to attend....


So, if you COULD have got IN to Tonmeister, but for whatever reason chose to go elsewhere , you might well still make a go of a career in this industry....

because that's the type of person that could do so....

I went to Lincoln, the Inbetweeners summed it up nicely.

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'You know it's a bad role when Nic Cage passes on it.'

Quote The Red Bladder:

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I did not know - until the day I had to do a company presentation on the future of tape-based video editing - that small Japanese men, when truly angry, could actually levitate.

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yeah and i can walk on water (just don't tell anyone it's in the middle of winter at 30 below). levitating is child's play anyways!!

IMVHO the ONLY reason to take a music tech course is if you know for certain that you don't want to work in the industry and just take it for a party and girl fest and to appease nagging parents...

You don't need the piece of paper but you damn sure need that money and you damn damn sure don't need that hefty monthly loan payment once you're done, especially considering you most likely will be starting at the same place as you would have had you skipped the school and just dove IN...

Beyond that the only reason to take a mediocre course is for a field which requires a piece of paper and you are positive you want to do that for the rest of your life, which most times, is something you can't be positive about.

As many know i took Golf Management, yeah i basically got scammed and some of the teachers knew the deal and didn't say squat, but its all good, nothing but love here, it was a great education for me just sadly not the one i paid for. Of course i tell people it was a business diploma and kindly leave out the golf management part, as it was, however, the best thing about it was it was so easy we could spend most of the time in the bar and doing an assortment of other debauchery... if you're a lifer in that biz, okay, but otherwise it's pretty darn useless... fun times though and hey im still on their wall of fame so take that haha im kidding (about the take that not the wall, i really am) it's all love, i wouldn't change it if i could, only my fault for being misinformed...

anyways if you can take something that results in a phd or of that sort of standard, giddyup, otherwise skip it and start your own business and work whatever on the side if you have to and teach yourself the music stuff, or skip starting your business and just start cracking on making stuff... especially in this day and age being able to pump out brilliant stuff with a laptop and stock plugs...

you are fooling yourself if you think you can take some mediocre type music course and honestly compete with the people who were hand picked at the age of 4 to follow that path... not that it's competing really, but still, think about it...

anyhoo i was holding off until the 15th, but, apparently now im the patient one.

SAE but before I got a bachelor degree in chemistry

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Recording Studio
Online track mastering

Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

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So, if you COULD have got IN to Tonmeister, but for whatever reason chose to go elsewhere , you might well still make a go of a career in this industry....

because that's the type of person that could do so....

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Yes, I suppose you could read it like that... if you're a person who *could* have got all As or A*s in A-level Maths, Physics and Music, had you chosen to take them all, then you should do well. Pity those poor, intelligent types who chose other subjects at A-level. I'm sure someone who studied music, law and computing wouldn't stand a chance...

now you're just being ornery...

if they studied those subjects and got A's A*s , the same applies.... they probably could make a go of a career.... and indeed, if they go A*s at that, they would reasonably have been expected to be up in that bracket for the other courses, so, arguably, still fall under the heading of "COULD" have got in to the holy grail courses.....


for that matter, they may still have got an interview.... and may still have got in based on that .


nothing stopping them doing a second set of A levels either....

Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

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now you're just being ornery...

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Interesting choice of words. Ornery:

1. ugly and unpleasant in disposition or temper: No one can get along with my ornery cousin.
2. stubborn: I can't do a thing with that ornery mule.
3. low or vile.

Certainly, it's not my intention to be any of those things. I suppose you could say that I'm stubborn, but that's something you could say to anyone arguing against what I'm saying.

Seriously, are you saying that someone has to study disciplines such as maths, physics and music to be able to be a successful recording engineer, or mix engineer? Or media composer? Because I just don't believe that that is true. How many people with production or engineering credits in the Billboard top 100 over the past decade have held a Tonmeister qualification. I suspect it's a *long* way off 100%.

Sure, you have to be bright, motivated, committed, hard-working... and a lot of other things besides, that *many* music tech students aren't. I've never said otherwise, and neither would I. But to suggest that there's only one way to study this stuff to improve your skills, knowledge and experience is ridiculous.

I know plenty of people earning money making music who have not done a Tonmeister, and who haven't done those sort of subjects to A-level standard. So yes, the Tonmeister is a great benchmark to measure up to. Yes, its graduates stand a great chance of 'success', and far better than most. Yes, if you're young and serious about this as a career, then it's probably the best way to go in the UK. I suppose you could take German alongside the other A-levels and go and study in Germany and do a Tonmeister in Germany... but you know what I mean.

However, I still say it's not the *only* way to train, and it's not for everyone. I've heard similar tales told about other industries and vocations, and it just doesn't ring true. Stubborn? Maybe. Or maybe I've listened to the various arguments and remain unconvinced. Unpleasant or ugly in disposition? I hope not. And I hope I've done nothing to suggest being low or vile either.

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SOS Reviews Editor

I don't think anyone is saying it's the "only way". We/they're saying it's one of the FEW academic ways that is worthwhile.

deliberately awkward, and somewhat stubborn..... is the commonest use of the word..



no one really said ONLY way to TRAIN,


but the BEST,


and only course that is held as a benchmark....


in the same way as BBC training USED to be , back when they actually did any..... and there was actually a related industry..... with large scale employers./...



(see Hugh for further reading.... )

Quote Off duty BBQ lighter AKA Idris:

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deliberately awkward, and somewhat stubborn..... is the commonest use of the word..

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Disagreeing with someone and debating a point of discussion is hardly the same thing as being deliberately awkward.

Quote:

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no one really said ONLY way to TRAIN,

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Erm, yes they did. They said you stand little or no chance of gainful employment if you can't get on that course. I'm saying that's untrue. No more, no less. However you might read that statement - and with the best will in the world, I do think you were rather stretching its meaning in your previous post - I think the newbies on this newbie forum deserve to have such things put in simple terms when they ask (what they imagine are) simple questions.

Quote:

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but the BEST, and only course that is held as a benchmark

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I've never said otherwise. At least we can agree on something...

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SOS Reviews Editor

So... to sum up then...

If you want to go down the formal academic route as a means of gaining access to the industry, the the most highly regarded and probably the most worthwhile courses are those like Surrey's Tonmeister, the various audio engineering courses offered by LIPA, and a few others scattered about. most of which have some specific emphasis on a particular aspect (such as acoustics at Salford and Southampton, spatial audio at York... and so on.)

Many of the others provide an arguably less helpful start, not least because the few major high end employers in the industry inevitably tend to focus their attention on Tonmeister and LIPA graduates!

BUT, most audio engineering / music production courses provide at least something of value in the way of an education that a dedicated student can still benefit from.

The key, in all cases and regardless of whether the student follows a formal academic degree path, or attends short privately funded courses, or teaches themselves from magazines, books and practical local experience, is that success is never guaranteed and relies almost entirely on extremely hard work, dedication, and relentless drive, teamed with fabulous interpersonal skills.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Matt Houghton:

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I suppose you could take German alongside the other A-levels and go and study in Germany and do a Tonmeister in Germany.

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It is a six-year course and the standard in Germany would exclude most GRADUATES of the Surrey Tonmeister course. There is a one-week interview and entrance examination session and most candidates attend one year of music conservatory to be able to pass this. You MUST be able to play a simple piece, typically Debussy or something of similar difficulty, on sight with no preparation and must be able to take one hour of musical dictation (i.e. piece is played, line by line and the candidate must write it down). A prepared piece must be played to very proficient level.

There are also technical tests, involving fault finding, reading circuit diagrams and answering other technical and IT questions.

But Hugh has summed up the situation precisely and the 'other' courses need to brush up their ideas and either get up to speed, or get out of the business of fooling students into thinking that playing with equipment and software is good for anything.

In Germany there is a level of engineer below that of Tonmeister and that is the 'Mediengestalter für Bild und Ton' (Production Assistant for Sound and Picture). This is a classical apprenticeship and lasts for three years and this a state approved and accredited course, in which the apprentice is attached to a media company (TV station, production studio, recording studio, DVD authoring facility, mobile, etc., etc.) and (with the exception of those at the larger TV stations) rotates with others in other types of facilities to get experience of all types of work.

Typically, candidates for this apprenticeship have A-levels or has a journeyman's certificate (i.e. has completed an apprenticeship) in another field such as IT or electronics.

Given the changing nature of the business, the combining of picture and sound in one three-year course makes a great deal of sense. And I do have to admit that I was very, very sceptical at first.

But the numbers are self-regulating. Only registered and accredited Meisterbetriebe (master companies) are allowed to take on apprentices and many types of work (esp. government contracts and working with public broadcasters) either have to go to such a Meisterbetrieb, or they are given preferential treatment. The German equivalent of the DTI has a series of tests and examinations, to decide who is a master engineer. Basically, it is a study course (e.g. Tonmeister) or a series of courses and tests to become a master. The same rules apply to every type of skilled journeyman, from car mechanic to hairdresser.

Because of the high quality of the staff, German companies have been taking work away from their neighbours and the various mobiles and OB trucks tour the UK and Ireland often, recording Queen, Stones etc. British films and concerts are being mastered in Germany and you (the industry in general) have been warned. You are losing work now, because you continue to refuse to grasp this nettle.

In response to the OP, i'm currently studying Music Tech at Teesside University, i'm in between years 2 and 3 now. I had plenty of experience in the studio as a musician before I started the course but I wanted some detailed knowledge of what was going on in there and the course so far has provided it, as well as plenty of other stuff on synthesis, composition, live sound, music theory and others.

I don't harbour any notion that my degree will assure me of a job, i'm a bit too long in the tooth to be that deluded. I know one thing for certain though, i'm undoubtedly in a better position to make a living doing what I love than I was 2 years ago, and improving your chances is what any kind of course is about.