Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote ef37a:

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I thought you meant that there was a nationwide rolling program to get all our supplies harmonized to 230volts?

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Tthere is a rolling program... and it's being done as and when equipment is replaced or undergoes major overhauls. So it's going to take quite a while to complete.

hugh

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Well I would have said that was a rolling program to replace kit not to harmonize us all! But never mind eh?

Dave.

Quote Kolakube:

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There is no intrinsic reason why there should be any audible hum at any setting of the monitoring level control. None of my systems have audible hum when maxed out.

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Intresting. I thought that would be the norm. Well, if I can irradicate the rest I will. Ideally Id like hum free.

Should that go for hiss too or is that another story?

I wonder, could my 1993 mixer be the problem in itself? (Soundtracs Solo)

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Unplug everything from the mixer, then listen to the output of the mixer and see if you still have hum. Some hiss is normal.

If there is no hum, then plug things back in one piece at a time and listen again. And if, as you add something, it causes a hum, then look at ways of fixing it. Then move onto the next piece of kit.

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www.Lozjackson.com

Quote Kolakube:

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Done this Hugh. Spen a day taking every cable out of my mixer.

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But that was before you sorted out the mains wiring. The situation is different now. It's worth trying again... I'm sure it won't take more then 15 minutes!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Kolakube:

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I thought that would be the norm. Well, if I can irradicate the rest I will. Ideally Id like hum free.

Should that go for hiss too or is that another

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There should be no hum in a good system. Hum comes from three places: EM interference which can be dealt with using balanced cables and careful cable placement/separation, ground loops which we've already discussed, and power supply ripple which is caused by poor design or a failing supply and which can be fixed.

Hiss, on the other hand, is an intrinsic aspect of electronic circuitry... But again, good design and sensible gain structures should render it inaudible for all normal purposes. Older equipment is often noisier than modern gear, but it shouldnt be a problem.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Yeah the reason it took a day before was because I had everything plugged in and Velcro'd so it looked pretty :0

Now i've just plugged in what I need and to hell with it. Going to unplug everything today or tom and report back.



A final question on this. My ADAT isn't actually balanced or unbalanced as I previously reported. Its either or. So you can plug either balanced or unbalanced cables into it apparently. How does that work then?

In this case is it ok to used unbalanced cabling for the 24 unbalanced mixer tape outs to my HD24s 'either or' Inputs, or would these Psuado (spelling) balanced ones still be the way to go for optimal results?

Quote Kolakube:

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A final question on this. My ADAT isn't actually balanced or unbalanced as I previously reported. Its either or. So you can plug either balanced or unbalanced cables into it apparently. How does that work then?

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Basically the input and output circuitry effectively switces half off when it detects unbalanced sources and destinations. If your console has balanced inputs and outputs it would be best to connect with balanced looms as that reduces the risk of ground loops.

if not, see how the hum is with unbalanced connections, and use pseudo-balanced if you have ground loops.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hi Hugh,

My mixer is bizzare. I dont know it its the norm but my mixer has the following ballanced connections. Line in, Mic, Tape in on each channel. Great!

But then the tape outs are acctuall unballanced and also on each channel? Not sure why they done this but its the way it is. It was no cheapo desk either. In its day it was around 8 grand. (Sountracs Solo Midi)

So its not as simple as balanced to balanced. I do get that thouhgh, basically if you have a balanced connector going to a balanced connector, always use a balanced cable.

But what do I use on the unblanaced tape outs to the ADATs 'either or' ins? Of course im guessing use an unbalanced cable but id love to hear the difinitive answer from yourself.

I'd buy a balanced loom and then modify the connector wiring at the desk end to pseudo-balanced operation. The unbalanced output jack plug tip wired to the balanced adat input hot, the unbalanced jack sleeve to the balanced cold, and the cable screen isolated at the unbalanced end (or, better, tied to the sleeve via 100 ohm resistor).

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote:

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I'd buy a balanced loom and then modify the connector wiring at the desk end to pseudo-balanced operation. The unbalanced output jack plug tip wired to the balanced adat input hot, the unbalanced jack sleeve to the balanced cold, and the cable screen isolated at the unbalanced end (or, better, tied to the sleeve via 100 ohm resistor).

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....Oh no, I must have set my browser to Japanese again

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Starting to warm to the idea of a soldering iron yet, Kola?

Seriously though, this is an aspect of a hardware set-up that a lot of people fail to appreciate. If I had to replace all my cabling in one go I'd be crying over my mouse mat.

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Sorry Elf I missed your reply.

Yes doing it myself is seeming like a great idea. I haven't much confidence with these things though. Ive never even used a soldering iron before.

Quote Kolakube:

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Quote:

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Starting to warm to the idea of a soldering iron yet, Kola?

Seriously though, this is an aspect of a hardware set-up that a lot of people fail to appreciate. If I had to replace all my cabling in one go I'd be crying over my mouse mat.

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Sorry Elf I missed your reply.

Yes doing it myself is seeming like a great idea. I haven't much confidence with these things though. Ive never even used a soldering iron before.

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Good man! If you want to PM me I will walk you through it all.

Dave.

Quote Kolakube:

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Yes doing it myself is seeming like a great idea. I haven't much confidence with these things though. Ive never even used a soldering iron before.

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It's not that hard, it doesn't require much of an investment in tools, and its a skill that will often save the day and definitely save you money for the rest of your music-making years!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Kolakube:

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Yes doing it myself is seeming like a great idea. I haven't much confidence with these things though. Ive never even used a soldering iron before.

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If you knew the extent of my DIY skills (pratically zero) then you would be much more confident. I honestly mean it when I say that if *I* can do it, then truly *anyone* can!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote Kolakube:

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Done this Hugh. Spen a day taking every cable out of my mixer. I wasnet until the very last cable was unplugged that the hum stopped. (The last cable was from my balanced MPC to Ballanced Mixer in but using an unballanced cable.) I dont think it was the last instrument fault though somehow.

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Doesn't mean that they were all at fault though. It would make more sense to work the other way round - disconnect everything and then just connect one thing at a time until you hear the hum. If something hums, disconnect it again and carry on reconnecting everything else. You will probably discover a pattern of things that hum and things that don't.

James.

PS - check your mixer manual carefully as some Soundtracs mixers had TRS connectors that weren't balanced as they had different input sensitivities on the tip and ring.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Edited by James Perrett (19/03/12 01:10 PM)

Ef37a

Thanks for the offer of help via PM mate. Appreciated. If its all the same ill just keep this thread running. May help someone out. Also the I find PMs harder to scan back through than forum posts.

Guess i'll mutate this thread into a 'how the hell do I do this then' one.

Everyone

Thanks for all the advice, going to give rolling my own a shot. For the amount of cables I need I just cannot afford to buy them all.


So what do I need? (Im researching this now, just wanted to reply here first)

Obviously a soldering iron haha

http://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00675/soldering-station/dp/SD01387
http://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d01681/solder-wire-sn60-pb40-0-7mm-100g/dp /SD01535?in_merch=Featured Products&MER=e-bb45-00001001
http://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00099/60mm-swivel-table-vice-with-anvil/d p/TL10308?in_merch=Featured Products&MER=e-bb45-00001001

That gets you started. You can pay a lot more for a solder station but I have had that one (from Maplin actually) for 3 years and no problems. Buy more solder if you can. Note that is LEAD solder (wash hands after, don't eat, drink or smoke and solder but don't get anal about it. I did all 3 for about 30yrs and nothing wrong with me, the Emperor of France BLEURGH!!!)You do not want to start with leadfree solder.

Then you need sidecutters, small pliers but don't buy super dinky expensive things. Some heatshrink sleeving, Maplins do a handy assorted pack and a hobby knife will see you right.

Dave.

Hey thanks mate, thats great advice.

Ill look into getting the kit together and report back.

Quote:

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the Emperor of France BLEURGH

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Is this cables OK for both balanced and pseudo balanced cabling?

http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Van-Damme-Pro-Grade-Classic-X KE-Jet-Black-100m-02-3490/?source=googleps&utm_source=googleps

It sticks to the 1 pound per meter that James P's rule of thumb highlights above.

And these for sockets. I know there over 2 quid (Per JPs rule) but I do like the Neutrik brand. Have bought some ready made before. These seem to be the cheapest stereo jacks Neutrik do and I take it I need stereo jacks for all my balanced and pseudo balanced stuff??

http://cpc.farnell.com/neutrik/np3x/6-35mm-jack-plug-stereo/dp/AV11225?in_ merch=Products%20From%20This%20Range

That's all fine K.

I would rather go for foil screened cable unless it is going on the road as it is rather easier and quicker to trim up and solder. Make sure you tease out and twist the shield wires and don't leave any whiskers. Solder the end of the twist and slip over a piece of sleeving.

Dave.

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I would rather go for foil screened cable unless it is going on the road as it is rather easier and quicker to trim up and solder. Make sure you tease out and twist the shield wires and don't leave any whiskers. Solder the end of the twist and slip over a piece of sleeving.

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woooow, we've jumped 5 spaces

First im going to get the kit together and then Ill try and work out what shield wires are and why they have cat whiskers.

I agree with Dave. The van damme cable is great, but over the top for your application here where you are making semi-permanent wiring for a fixed installation. Something like this foil-screened cable would be easier to work with.

http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Evolution-XPC-OFC-Professiona l-1-pair-62370

James' post above is worth confirming -- I wasn't aware of the dual-level input configuration on some soundtracs desks...so make sure it really does have ordinary balanced inputs and unbalanced outputs before commiting yourself!

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Didn't notice that part of James post Hugh. Pleased you pointed this out.

Ill scan the page of my manual and try and put it on here.

Ive also got the schematics but they make no scene to me (Surprise surprise)

Also thanks for the link Hugh

My make who may go into this with me prefers Van Damn cable for whatever reason.

Is this a Van Damn equivalent of what you kindly linked me too? (Similar price and keeps his face straight.)

http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Van-Damme-Pro-Grade-Classic-X KE-1-Pair-Jet-Black-100m-02-3555

That Van Damme cable looks fine if you aren't going to move the cables around too much. It may come in under my 50p rule but don't let that put you off.

One other thought - know anyone with some snake cable offcuts? While 2-3 metre lengths aren't much use for making multi-core snakes, they're great if you separate out the cores and use them as patch cables.

James.

PS - for connectors take a look at http://cpc.farnell.com/neutrik/nys202/6-35mm-jack-plug-stereo/dp/AV09104




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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Edited by James Perrett (19/03/12 04:03 PM)

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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I agree with Dave. The van damme cable is great, but over the top for your application here where you are making semi-permanent wiring for a fixed installation. Something like this foil-screened cable would be easier to work with.

http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Evolution-XPC-OFC-Professiona l-1-pair-62370

James' post above is worth confirming -- I wasn't aware of the dual-level input configuration on some soundtracs desks...so make sure it really does have ordinary balanced inputs and unbalanced outputs before commiting yourself!

Hugh

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Huge, that rapid cable is a bit wee at 3.5mm OD? Electrically fine, I have a lot similar in red but it is a bit of a PITA in standard jacks and XLRs because the cable clamp barely works. No matter to me since I just built out the diameter with some data cable outer but the newb will not appreciate such messings about?

Dave.

What about this one Dave- it looks more suitable to me yet still reasonably priced:

www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Van-Damme-Tour-grade-classic-XKE-mic rophone-cable-500091

6.35mm overall diameter and can be bought in 10m and 25m lengths for £1/metre


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Good spot -- most Neutrik jack plugs can accommodate cable diameters of 4-7mm, so might struggle with this. As you say, some sleeving would solve the issue... but it sounds like he's going to use some van damme stuff anyway...

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks for all the input fellas. I really appreciate everyones time.

So, to summerize.

These connectors (Didnt even see these previously - Great money saving find! Thanks)
http://cpc.farnell.com/neutrik/nys202/6-35mm-jack-plug-stereo/dp/AV09104

With this cable
http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Van-Damme-Tour-grade-classic- XKE-microphone-cable-500091

No wonder I didnt find thoese Neutrik plugs. There not even listed on the Neutrik website.

http://www2.neutrik.com/content/home/home.aspx?portal=uk&language=1

And enter NYS202

Bizzare

I've maybe missed something here (and I don't want to add to the confusion!), but why have we abandoned foil screened cable? That seems the ideal cable for permanent installation. Or is there something I don't know?

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Dave was worried about the cable diameter not being compatible with the more upmarket Neutrik connectors.

With the simpler ones K is now talking about, which use crimp cable clamping, the thinner foil cables previously discussed would be fine....

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote The Elf:

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I've maybe missed something here (and I don't want to add to the confusion!), but why have we abandoned foil screened cable? That seems the ideal cable for permanent installation. Or is there something I don't know?

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"We" haven't Elf it is just that there does not seem to be one of reasonable outside diameter, as Hugh says, sub 4mm is going to cause problems.

Dave.

OK guys. Gotcha. Just thought I should ask!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Guys can I just get a conformation from thoese who know. Its going to cost me a few hundred pounds for the cabling and connectors alone thats without the soldering gear and seems as this is virgin teritory for me Id love a reasured 'yes'


http://cpc.farnell.com/neutrik/nys202/6-35mm-jack-plug-stereo/dp/AV09104


http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Van-Damme-Tour-grade-classic- XKE-microphone-cable-500091

Am I correct in thinking I use the exact cable and plugs for both the balanced and psuedo balanced cables I intend to make and its just how there wired up that makes a diff? Or do I have to buy diffrent plugs and cable for the diffrent types? Rather buy everything at once to save postage fees buying twice from the same outlets.



On another note.....

I think now would be a great time to incorperate a patchbay (or 3) into my set up.
How would I do this?

1 - Unblanaced cable from my unbalanced synth to the patchbay, then Psuedo Balanced for the rest of its journey into my desk (for an EG).

2 - Or Psuedo balanced straight out of my synth and then balanced from patchbay to desk?


Im guessing the second option?

Quote Kolakube:

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...as this is virgin teritory for me Id love a reasured 'yes'


http://cpc.farnell.com/neutrik/nys202/6-35mm-jack-plug-stereo/dp/AV09104

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YES. I wouldn't use these on cables that will get a lot of use, but for your application where they'll be plugged in once and left alone they'll be fine.

Quote:

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http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Van-Damme-Tour-grade-classic- XKE-microphone-cable-500091

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YES... although personally I'd go with a foil screened cable simply becuase you don't need the thicker robust outer jacket and foil is a lot quicker and easier to prepare and terminate.

This stuff: http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Van-Damme-Pro-grade-classic-X KE-1-pair-install-cable-500094 is roughly half the price and will be fine.

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Am I correct in thinking I use the exact cable and plugs for both the balanced and psuedo balanced cables I intend to make and its just how there wired up that makes a diff?

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YES... you use balanced cable for both. However, the unbalanced equipment ends will need plugs wired for unbalanced (tip-sleeve) operation. You might save some money by purchasing proper tip-sleeve plugs for these connections rather than using re-wired TRS plugs. Depends on how many you need and what the bulk discounts are.

Quote:

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I think now would be a great time to incorperate a patchbay (or 3) into my set up.
How would I do this?

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By buying some patchbays and a shed load more cable and connectors.... it will push the cost up significantly and I would ask whether you really need a patchbay or just want one? Will you really need to repatch your sources and destinations regularly? Patchbays introduce a lot of potential points of failure, and also make the ground loop problem considerably more complex. If you an do without, then I'd recommend doing without!

Quote:

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1 - Unblanaced cable from my unbalanced synth to the patchbay, then Psuedo Balanced for the rest of its journey into my desk (for an EG).

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No, you'd need balanced patchbays to minimise the risk of creating ground loops, so pseudo-balanced cable from synth to patch, and balanced everywhere from there on.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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You might save some money by purchasing proper tip-sleeve plugs for these connections rather than using re-wired TRS plugs. Depends on how many you need and what the bulk discounts are.

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Not only would you save money, but potentially avoid problems with certain mono jack sockets whose sleeve connection just happens to line up with the extra insulation ring on TRS plugs.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote:

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I think now would be a great time to incorperate a patchbay (or 3) into my set up.
How would I do this?

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By buying some patchbays and a shed load more cable and connectors.... it will push the cost up significantly and I would ask whether you really need a patchbay or just want one? Will you really need to repatch your sources and destinations regularly? Patchbays introduce a lot of potential points of failure, and also make the ground loop problem considerably more complex. If you an do without, then I'd recommend doing without!

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I'm afraid I threw in the patchbay suggestion in a private message exchange...

It was an alternative way to allow Kola to sample his synths without going through the mixing desk. Probably best to make up the cables to wire straight to the desk for now as they will still be useful if you ever want to add a balanced patchbay.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Thanks Hugh.

No James it wasn't you to blame mate. Id been thinking about a Patchbay for a while now. I get sick of plugging and unplugging inserts and instruments to different channels etc. Your sampling idea was simply a cherry on a cake.

Interestingly Hugh states (in a nutshell) the more kit I put in the chain the more chance of ground loops, what sound totally plausible and ive no reason to doubt Hugh. But I was under the impression by going Pseudo Balanced and Balanced for all of my cabling and not having any unbalanced cables in my entire studio, got rid of any hum no matter what?

Or am I mistaken? If not surely no matter how many patch bays I have ill be fine as long as my cabling is spot on? No?

If hum can still come through on PB and B cabling is there actually any point in doing this?

Quote Kolakube:

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I was under the impression by going Pseudo Balanced and Balanced for all of my cabling and not having any unbalanced cables in my entire studio, got rid of any hum no matter what?

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In theory, yes... but patch bays have grounded sockets and grounded metalwork, and hence the possibility of creating more grounds loops by accident. In theory, anything with balanced inputs shouldn't be affected by ground loop currents, but not all equipment is designed in the way it should be and it's not that unusual to find mixing console inputs being susceptible to ground loop currents on their balanced inputs.

It's always possible to find workarounds if these things should materialise, of course, but avoiding the problem in the first place is a lot easier!

In any case, it's not a big step to add a balanced patchbay afterwards, but it would make sense to resolve your current hum issues before making things even more complicated.

So I'd still recommend making up the pseudo-balanced cables for your synths and working through the current set up to get it hum free first, before expanding the rig.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

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So I'd still recommend making up the pseudo-balanced cables for your synths and working through the current set up to get it hum free first, before expanding the rig.

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Yeah great advice. Keep it simple, get that sorted first and then build on that. Ok, patchbay a distant menory for now. THanks mate.