Hi

im having a massive change in approach, sick to death of pcs and mice and updates etc so going completely hardware. Got a huge desk for peanuts (soundtracs 24:8:2) and now looking (rose tintedly?) at some old 8 track reel to reels.

Ive never used one before, and what with the cost and scarcity (?) of tapes, and needing services, calibration etc, am i going one step too far? Is a digital multitrack (eg hd24) a better idea, poss mixed down to a stereo tape recorder?

Can someone please confirm the basics, eg how many tapes ill need, how often need services, etc. Im wondering how to archive old recordings as well, only have 4 inputs on my soundcard, also could use zoom r16 but converters are a bit, well, rubbish.

I must admit im tempted by the fact that the hd24 is 24 track, so could run every channel back thru the desk once recorded to mix down to stereo, rather than 8. a 24 track tape machine would be ludicrously big, and expensive. But could use the 8 groups on the desk to record with. HD24 also has midi sync but im totally into the 'live take, warts and all', rather than the editing to infinity which is the main problem IMO with daws. ive got hours and hours of multitracks im never going to sit down and do something with.

fwiw its live techno, with a mate, so the idea would be to do a run down to tape, then mix and dub it up off tape direct to master. looking at a tascam 58 8 track, and revox a77 master tape, which will need fixing (mono only atm) for about £500 as well.

Any thoughts, however obscure, and pro or con welcomed. FWIW im half thinking just go for it, i can always sell on ebay if it doesnt work out...

(its a very cool hipster thing to own for resident advisor etc anyway, lol)



Many thanks,

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http://www.paradigmx.com

Quote Paradigm X:

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Is a digital multitrack (eg hd24) a better idea

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Almost certainly, yes.

However, you don't seem to state why you think the reel-to-reel might suit you better than a hardware hard disk recorder - and knowing this might help provide more detailed advice.

Good point.

Im thinking/hoping it will give me the oldschool dub techno (basic channel)/acid house sound whereas the digital multitrack will (might) be sterile, at best. I.e. in a roundabout way, will also be a sound processor (subtle compression/eq) as way as a recorder. Plus no (major) issues with overloads, as opposed to horrible horrible digital clipping.

The other reason is the initial outlay is a fair bit cheaper than the alesis (~£350 as opposed to 7-800).

Im convinced i want to go completely hardware, not sure whether the perceived benefits of tape is worth the perceived flaws...

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http://www.paradigmx.com

Great fun. Lots of hassle. And probably not the best medium for techno given the inevitable head bump at 15 or 7.5ips. Tape gets expensive at 30ips! Personally, I'd go with a digital recorder, or just use a cheap computer with limited software and keep it offline and don't think about updates etc.

SOS did a feature on buying used tape machines not that long ago. You can read it here. and I recommend that you do.

The thing that worries me about all this is these days everything is sidechained, limited to christmas and back etc etc and you're not going to be able to do any of that stuff. I just wonder if you're not going to find it incredibly limiting (no pun intended)

J

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www.jackruston.com

Quote Paradigm X:

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Im thinking/hoping it will give me the oldschool dub techno (basic channel)/acid house sound whereas the digital multitrack will (might) be sterile, at best.

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Hmmm... when you start looking for magic from tape on dance music, I sense you're heading for disappointment. But it can help get you towards an old-school sound. That said, there's no reason digital should sound bad. And you with the money you'd save over the maintenance and consumables costs of tape, you could soon afford a hardware tape emulator (RND Portico or Sound Skulptor STS, for example).

Quote:

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Plus no (major) issues with overloads, as opposed to horrible horrible digital clipping.

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So use the same levels as you would with tape and it won't clip at all. You don't need to get near to clipping on a 24-bit digital system.

Quote:

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The other reason is the initial outlay is a fair bit cheaper than the alesis (~£350 as opposed to 7-800).

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A better reason, but still you can get a Zoom R16 or some such.

Quote:

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Im convinced i want to go completely hardware, not sure whether the perceived benefits of tape is worth the perceived flaws...

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Personally, I tried exactly what you're suggesting and just didn't use it. Three machines broke down. Repairs were expensive etc etc. I'm back on computers now! If you're after the 'old school' sound, then you'll need to look not only (or even primarily) at the recording medium: check out the samplers and cheap digital delays and reverbs of the time too. Some of them actually have a bit of character too!

I think you're nuts. But it sounds like a great idea if you pull it off! You should get an Atari ST and run a really old version of Cubase on it too!

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.:|johnsonboro|:.

doh just somehow rated this thread a 1, oops! Thanks for that link, ill give it a good read when i can.

I should mention I already own a pretty old but reliable pc/DAW with a focusrite interface and Cubase 5 and Abelton 8. Although im prob going to sell cubase.

i didnt want to go tldr, but if people are interested ive been ITB for years. I borrowed a zoom r16, which although flawed, i loved the fact i could just switch that, the 909 606 and x0xbox on, and record a track in 30s, as opposed to turning on pc, loading ableton, setting all the track arms etc... it really opened my eyes to the lost art of actually physically recording and producing via a desk too, and im sick of messing with pcs full stop. it feels like work (spreadsheets) rather than actually making music. A personal opinion!

Im going to keep ableton and my pc, primarily as a tape recorder if needs be, and because its largely worthless (quad core). And ableton is a lot of fun, and great for time-stretching breaks etc.

Hope this makes some sense. I appreciate i may be alone in my madness, given the way the whole worlds going, even the sellers going ITB.

many thanks, Ben

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http://www.paradigmx.com

I found analogue tape awkward and nasty in comparison to digital and was very glad to stop recording to analogue tape back in 1983.

There are lots and lots of things yo have to do with analogue tape:- regular maintenance, head alignment, tape path alignment, azimuth adjustment, cleaning and demagnatising, bias adjustment, Dolby level adjustment, etc., etc., etc.......

And you still get: bias noise, tape hiss, signal loss, print-through, wow, flutter, tape stretch, etc., etc.....

And a 10½" reel of standard play ¼"tape, which can cost £15, only lasts for one hour and is not normally used again - at least I never re-used a tape for an important recording.

Not worth the hassle and expense and very very high running costs IMHO.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote Jack Ruston:

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The thing that worries me about all this is these days everything is sidechained, limited to christmas and back etc etc and you're not going to be able to do any of that stuff. I just wonder if you're not going to find it incredibly limiting (no pun intended)

J

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I know what you mean, but (and with all due respect!) i, tbph, really dont care.

Im old, married and with child, im really not looking for fame and fortune, just fun and sounds that remind me of my youth. Theres definitely an oldskool, analogue revival at the mo, so my trendy dj mates say. I HATE the over limited sounds at the moment, loudness wars etc... the oldskool sound.

FWIW im getting the best two tunes weve done professionally mastered, just to see how far this sort of recording can go. Although we can do much better with the big desk. Be interesting to see.

Cheers

Quote Mixedup:

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Personally, I tried exactly what you're suggesting and just didn't use it. Three machines broke down. Repairs were expensive etc etc. I'm back on computers now! If you're after the 'old school' sound, then you'll need to look not only (or even primarily) at the recording medium: check out the samplers and cheap digital delays and reverbs of the time too. Some of them actually have a bit of character too!

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Thats my major concern, it sounds great in principle, but will i spend the rest of my life and finances keeping it all going, rather than doing music. I knew a lot of people would have stories like that.

Ill still have ableton and my pc if it all goes horribly wrong.

i do have a 'romantic' notion of doing how it used to be done. Theres a bunch of people on youtube and beyond who religiously use this old gear and swear by it.

I have/am getting a load of dated old effects boxes etc, between us weve got Alesis XTC, boss re70, a cool ibanez reverb, an old tape echo, zoom 1204, plus akai s2000, 909, 606, x0xb0x, juno106, vermona drm3 etc. quite the oldschool pile

Many thanks, regards

Ben

Edited by Paradigm X (20/07/12 01:53 PM)

Quote chris...:

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Quote Paradigm X:

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Is a digital multitrack (eg hd24) a better idea

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Almost certainly, yes.

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+1

I think you would be crazy buying a cheap 8 track analogue reel to reel, my reasoning is as follows/

Servicing costs
Running Costs > See tape cost
PAIN IN THE ASS to calibrate, clean, de-mag each time you want to record something
Head wear
More money
Some more money
Financing a black hole

bla bla bla and so the list goes on

If you want the tape sound imo go for a 2 track machine or a cassette recorder for the lo-fi effect

Edited by vinyl_junkie (20/07/12 01:25 PM)

Quote vinyl_junkie:

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Quote chris...:

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Quote Paradigm X:

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Is a digital multitrack (eg hd24) a better idea

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Almost certainly, yes.

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+1

I think you would be crazy buying a cheap 8 track analogue reel to reel, my reasoning is as follows/

Servicing costs
Running Costs > See tape cost
PAIN IN THE ASS to calibrate, clean, de-mag each time you want to record something
Head wear
More money
Some more money
Financing a black hole

bla bla bla and so the list goes on

If you want the tape sound imo go for a 2 track machine or a cassette recorder for the lo-fi effect

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OK, so to fill me in, how often do they need calibrating? Literally every time i record? Once every 3 months? Seller suggested he calibrated i 3 years ago and been fine since. he runs a studio, not a private sale, fwiw.

considering this is a personal studio, and i would record say, 3 or 4 tunes a month at most, can anyone give me a very rough ballpark of how much i can expect to pay out? Roughly? I guess this is an impossible question.

i guess i need to read the sos article first.

many thanks for all your insight. I kinda guessed these were the responses i would get, cant help feeling a bit sad tho, and not sure why?

From what everyones saying, the hd24, perhaps mixed down to tape, would be the best option. more expensive tho, not to mention the not incosiderable 24 in and out cables needed. (i had forgotten about all this since going ITB! Not had a ground loop yet either )

Anyway, cheers. Appreciate it.

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http://www.paradigmx.com

I don't think you need a multitrack. When I was messing around with DJ's and dance music in the early 90's, most of what we were doing was all MIDI controlled hardware plugged into the mixing desk. We did our best to get away from using tape and just have everything on the sequencer. We would then use the mutes on the mixing desk to build up the track - either live or MIDI controlled if we were doing something really complex.

We would then either mix to DAT or analogue reel to reel (depending on whether the DAT machine was available or not).

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Paradigm X:

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OK, so to fill me in, how often do they need calibrating? Literally every time i record? Once every 3 months? Seller suggested he calibrated i 3 years ago and been fine since. he runs a studio, not a private sale, fwiw.

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If I use the MTR90 I will calibrate it before every new client - but the MTR90 makes it very easy to do this. I suspect a Tascam 58 will be similarly easy as it was designed as a professional studio machine but cheaper machines like the 38 will be a pain as they don't have separate record and play heads and the adjustments are hidden away.

My Fostex machines will be calibrated if I'm working on a tape that has tones on it but otherwise they stay as they are for a few months at a time.

If you are buying a used machine check the heads and guides very carefully for wear - worn heads are difficult, if not impossible, to replace nowadays.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

I think it's a great idea. There's something very wonderfully tangible and tactile of working with tape compared with working with 'files'. There's also something nice about having to wait for a tape to rewind - gives you time to think, have a ciggie, cuppa, snifter, whatever. And they can sound great with all their peculiar distortions. Terrific fun.

BUT...

Only inasmuch as it's great owning a vintage car. This...



Versus this...



No contest!!

The old car will be great fun, real hands-on driving, smells nice, looks fantastic, makes a good noise, walnut dashboard and so on. The modern car will be bland, dreary, predictable and indistinguishable from most other cars on the road.

But that vintage car can cost. You are unlikely to find anyone to service/repair it, parts will be hard to come by, you'll probably have to maintain it yourself and it won't give the same performance as a modern car.

If you can transpose that analogy to owning a tape MTR, you'll have a clue as to the upkeep of a tape MTR and much like you'll have trouble finding a carburettor for a 63 Jag MkII, so you will have trouble sourcing a new capstan wheel for your MTR. And God help you trying to source tape heads!

Tape costs would be my biggest concern. It was pretty high back in the day, even more so now I imagine (or am reliably informed). Like some old vintage car will drink petrol, you won't get much mileage from a reel of tape so running costs (assuming no other major maintenance costs are involved) could be high.

But, to continue the car analogy, much like there are some nifty modern sports cars that have all the qualities and feel of old MGs and Austin Healeys, etc., but with modern performance specs, there are recorders out there that go some way to emulating the feel of old tape machines but with modern conveniences. One that springs to mind is the Alesis HD24 (which you also mention) with its removable caddies that can be treated like a reel of tape. Totally solid piece of kit (although it's been around for a good while and would almost veer into 'vintage' territory!). And whilst it might cost more upfront, you'll ultimately save money in tape costs.

I perfectly understand your motives. If I could justify it, I'd be sorely tempted by a Toft ATB24 and an HD24 with some outboard (believe it or not, you don't need a reverb, MIDI-synced delay and compressor for every channel/track!!).

But as much as I have fond memories of working with tape, I doubt I'd go that route today.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Whatever but. Don't get an A77.Superb hi-fi deck but...
Useless for editing.
Flimsy, printed circuit switches.
Weird signal routing.
Noisy DIN line I/O which won't drive pro levels.
Look for a B77.

Then you will need a decent audio oscillator, millvoltmeter (DVM just won't do)head demagger, solder iron and lots and lots of ISOPROPA.

Oh and cotton buds. Forgot to say. M-A 1010lt WAY overkill for 8in/out.

Dave.

Edited by ef37a (20/07/12 05:26 PM)

Also the JoeCo Black Box, on the digi multitrack front.

Quote Paradigm X:

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Theres definitely an oldskool, analogue revival at the mo, so my trendy dj mates say. I HATE the over limited sounds at the moment, loudness wars etc... the oldskool sound.

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The "...over limited sounds at the moment, loudness wars etc..." is nothing at all to do with digital recording.

It's just very bad practice.

You don't need analogue to get rid of over limited sound and "being the loudest", just good recording practice.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

I think its a great idea. Some mastering houses are still developing new tape machine techniques today.

Making music is very process based. A computer makes you think in a certain way, and not necessarily a good one, either. Its no surprise than some of the freshest sounding new producers out there (Julio Bashmore, Jacque Green, Boddika) use a lot of analogue gear.

From a producing point of view, technically its not the right approach. But if warms your heart then you are likely to make much better music, and that's far more important than any technical specification or price/performance ratio.

And yes, pitchfork will be impressed.

Quote James Perrett:

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I don't think you need a multitrack. When I was messing around with DJ's and dance music in the early 90's, most of what we were doing was all MIDI controlled hardware plugged into the mixing desk. We did our best to get away from using tape and just have everything on the sequencer. We would then use the mutes on the mixing desk to build up the track - either live or MIDI controlled if we were doing something really complex.

We would then either mix to DAT or analogue reel to reel (depending on whether the DAT machine was available or not).

James.

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I totally agree with this. I pretty much still work this way too. Use a 32ch desk with some outboard, synths, sequence using a MPC and go straight down on to a DAT which I then transfer digitally into Logic for some further tweaking some times. I also still some times compose few bits using Logic although this is rare now days, I really like the MPC and find it a great sequencer but some days I do require Logic so it's handy to still have the option.

I also have various cassette decks ranging from crummy lo-fi 4 tracks to high quality 2 track machines.
Sometimes I use them for lo-fi effect other times just for nostalgia and making mix tapes.

Tape can be fun but I don't think a 8 track is required for what you want or do, a good 2 track machine could be a nice touch tough

All i can say is that some years ago i bought a s/h ree-to-reel machine to transfer some old tapes to digital, and one of my biggest "gear regrets" was selling it on again afterwards.

The thing is, it's not an either/or situation, its an as-well-as.

Why not!?

I would personally choose to spend the time/money/energy actually making music.

But if the tape is somehow a part of your music making, then why not.

Each to their own! The world would be dull if everyone did the same.

Nah, you're not nuts, you just need to know what you're getting into.

As others have said there's the maintenance of the machine and its associated costs etc etc. But some also justify shelling out thousands on a new Mac or upgrades or whatever every 2/3 years. Every option has a price attached.

I work with tape and I love it. I love making sure the tape path is clean and getting the cotton buds and alcohol out from their special drawer. I can do basic maintenance stuff, but I'm no tech by a long long chalk. But there's lots of folk about to assist you professionally.

I enjoy it, the workflow's great. I've only got 8 tracks? Well then, I better make a decision here. Bouncing tracks is brilliant fun. Clunky buttons, the sound of the tapes spinning, writing on the tape box! It's great!

I've got nothing against people using anything, and the analogue vs digital thing is a nonsense. If either get your mojo working, then that's all there is to it.

Just do it. You can always go back, computers ain't going anywhere

Wow, many thanks all for taking the time to reply, all very helpful. and also hugh's article, very illuminating.

Ill reply in a lot more detail a bit later when i get a moment, many thanks, best regards

Ben



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http://www.paradigmx.com

while youre all being super helpful, could anyone cast an eye over the photos to hazard a guess at condition?

i loee you all (imagine pwei)





i will reply in detail to all your comments later today when i get a chance, young'un is currently hopefully eating cereal, or throwing it everywhere!

Many thanks BEn

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http://www.paradigmx.com

Quote Paradigm X:

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could anyone cast an eye over the photos to hazard a guess at condition?

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Hmm. OK, well it's brown, and...

(Sorry, what was that about being super-helpful? )

Quote Paradigm X:

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while youre all being super helpful, could anyone cast an eye over the photos to hazard a guess at condition?

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It is a bit difficult to see the important bits from that photo - can you get some more showing the record and play heads straight on and close up?

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Two considerations, utility and cost.

Let's start with cost.

Ten years ago (give or take a couple) I spent about £12,000 on a 48-track Radar. Today it is worth about £3k. I spent about £4k on Soundscape, It is today worth about £1k and I have forgotten what we spent on ProTools, but I can guarantee you that it is probably not worth anything. At the same time, I spent £3,000 on a decent 24-track reel2reel, that today would fetch at least £2k, maybe more.

The Radar has cost me about £500 in upgrades and repairs. The Soundscape has cost about £400 in repairs and PT has cost nothing, as the upgrades are just too expensive for what they are, but it has not gone wrong. The reel2reel has cost nothing in upgrades (obviously!) and has cost nothing in repairs, as it has never gone wrong. I bought some 456 tape, as well as some high-energy tapes such as 3M 996 on ebay and made sure that they were dry and clean and gave them a bake at 50C and that was that.

Despite all the fuss made about only using virginal tape, a good, clean high-energy tape, even one that has been used a few times, is better and sharper and louder and has less noise than a new 456 copy. I love the sound of tape at 15ips, lots of bass and it is forgiving. It's like having a subtle multiband compressor with a tiny amount of aural exciter on each and every track!

Utility

I use Radar only for tracking and Reaper only for editing. The others could go in the bin for all I care, especially Soundscape - that must be someone's idea of a joke in pish-poor taste! But at least that DAW and AlphaLink can be used to run Reaper.

My customers love the R2R and it gets used all the time - unlike nearly all the digital boxes and effects we have here. Apart from the Radar, the only digital box that gets used every day is the Lexicon 960L. All those other magic boxes from the likes of Eventide, TC Electronics, etc., may just get used once a year, if that! But the R2R, now that gets used! Maybe not each and every day, but that box earns money.

You may find eight tracks very limiting and there are 2" 24 track machines on ebay for very little money if you are patient ( ebay listing for an Otari MTR90 MkII ) and such an animal would serve you for years, fit like a fist in the eye to your desk and maintain its value like no digital box ever could. They may look intimidating, but thay use conventional components and can actually be fixed if they go wrong. When digital goes wrong, you often have to bin it, as the chips are only ever made once.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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At the same time, I spent £3,000 on a decent 24-track reel2reel, that today would fetch at least £2k, maybe more.

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You'd be lucky!! Agree with everything else but don't believe the hype on tape machines or consoles. There are no buyers (unless its a two track). I let two nice studer 24 tracks go recently for piss money. Nobody wants them but everybody TALKS about wanting them. Same with consoles. I've a lovely Neve here - spent £20k on it years ago and (with your great advice) it's still a great console and brings me work. I doubt its worth £1k now. Nobody wants them - nobody serious anyway.

The MTR on Ebay? It'll go for £1200 and the buyer will pull out of the deal.

Quote narcoman:

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I've a lovely Neve here - spent £20k on it years ago and (with your great advice) it's still a great console and brings me work. I doubt its worth £1k now.

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So now it's my fault!

Quote narcoman:

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Nobody wants them - nobody serious anyway.

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So sell it to a joker!

Quote narcoman:

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The MTR on Ebay? It'll go for £1200 and the buyer will pull out of the deal.

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People are hurting. It's the machine or default on the mortgage.

totally your fault. Brings money into my company so it's worth a fortune to me

Grass is greener springs to mind, yes a novel approach.

I would say keep your PC, why do you need to update it all the time? Just don't update unless something decides not to work. Buy a UAD card and investigate other tape saturation means.
I think you will end up disappointed personally by spending a lot of money on a recording medium and mix system that 99 pct of people have left behind (with exception to your mixer of course), especially within the genre which you make music.

Think analogue, do it digitally.

And if not all the best with it and have fun, if you feel digital is seriously
stopping fun or creativity then you have a case for it.

Cheers

SafeandSound Mastering
Mastering studio

The benefits and drawbacks are simple enough.

(+) Tape saturation provides a musically desirable form of compression that can make mixing a lot more straightforward in some ways (parts 'sit' in the mix better because they're compressed and in a musically effective way). Desirable artefacts inherent in analogue gear can add ethereal, 'hand crafted' qualities to the sound.

(-) There are a lot of mechanical things to go wrong that can be expensive to overcome. Repairs might interrupt your projects. You really need to know what you're doing because it's a completely different ball game. It's more of an art I suppose because you can't follow procedure quite as rigorously as with digital recording. So there's a learning curve which takes time. Different machines have their own nature too. Noise may well be a desirable artefact for some, but all these procedures to control noise are much more important in analogue recording as there is always at least enough.

I would aim to reach a compromise between the digital and analogue methods. Why not start with a decent stereo reel-to-reel and use it to bounce parts that you feel benefit from it most?

For some reason cant log in on firefox, spent a waste of half an hour trying.

anyway, again thanks, fascinating reading, if it helps, and if not, for a bit of entertainment, i/we have a very specific way of working intended. We never sequence out a full tune but just have a load of loops and sequences preprogrammed into all the boxes, and just jam with it on mutes, etc. The plan is to record at least 8 tracks down to multitrack, to then move into stage 2 where we do a proper dub mixdown from the multitrack to stereo with all fx and everything. so thats what i think would be super cool to do off tape, very authentic.

that would be very good from the hd24 becasue its an line desk and would be super flexible to have each instrument on a channel for the mixdown. dub rattles, endless echos etc

But must admit the 'envisaged' joy of using simple, non computer tape recorders really adds to out 'performance'. having spent years doing hyper edited drumnbass with layer and layers of automation, its now really cool jamming the boxes to stereo and knowing its down on tape warts and all. No remixes, or drop in and drop out edits or redo the automation. Its far more fun and geniuine. So thinking if we can then do that live, but to 8/24 track, then do a dub mix afterwards really would be mindblowing.

The sensible part of me says the hd24 is the most obvious choice for a number of reasons, but theres something very alluring about at least trying 8 track tape. I mean, i can always sell it on on ebay in a few months and grab a hd24, theres plenty of them on there. And in conclusion, me and my mate haeve started from very little and now getting quite a cool pile of hardware together, but the key is weve always made the most of whatever weve had.

So yeah, thats why i think a multritrack is required, thanks to those who suggesyted otherwise.

Quote John Willett:

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The "...over limited sounds at the moment, loudness wars etc..." is nothing at all to do with digital recording.

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imho although youre right, technically, the fact you can now easily add 2 or 3 compressors, per track into groups with parallel new york comp and into the master with l3 and ozone and ..... does add to the effect. when youve only got hardware, andnot a lot of it, youve got to think where to use it.

Im as bad, if anyones interested google my username and soundcloud, and you can hear the difference between the older (all uad mix) to the modern/vintage analogue mixes.

Quote johnny h:

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Making music is very process based. A computer makes you think in a certain way, and not necessarily a good one, either. Its no surprise than some of the freshest sounding new producers out there (Julio Bashmore, Jacque Green, Boddika) use a lot of analogue gear.

From a producing point of view, technically its not the right approach. But if warms your heart then you are likely to make much better music, and that's far more important than any technical specification or price/performance ratio.

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yeah this totally sums up where im coming from. I was so sick of 'making music' (staring at pc for hours on end with mouse), until i decide to buy a x0xb0x and started the shift back to hardware. I was all hardware years ago and sold the lot like a lot of people when seduced by VSTis and instant recall... suckered.

@redbladder;

yeah ive far more confidence of getting a reasonable sum back off the analgue stuff than the digital stuff.

@safandsoud - ive been a heavy uad user for abotu 8 years or more. selling the lot to fund this little januty. never been more confident about something.

Cheers all, appreciate your inpout.

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http://www.paradigmx.com

Edited by Paradigm X (21/07/12 07:31 PM)

Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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The benefits and drawbacks are simple enough.

(+) Tape saturation provides a musically desirable form of compression that can make mixing a lot more straightforward in some ways (parts 'sit' in the mix better because they're compressed and in a musically effective way). Desirable artefacts inherent in analogue gear can add ethereal, 'hand crafted' qualities to the sound.

(-) There are a lot of mechanical things to go wrong that can be expensive to overcome. Repairs might interrupt your projects. You really need to know what you're doing because it's a completely different ball game. It's more of an art I suppose because you can't follow procedure quite as rigorously as with digital recording. So there's a learning curve which takes time. Different machines have their own nature too. Noise may well be a desirable artefact for some, but all these procedures to control noise are much more important in analogue recording as there is always at least enough.

I would aim to reach a compromise between the digital and analogue methods. Why not start with a decent stereo reel-to-reel and use it to bounce parts that you feel benefit from it most?

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sorry, missed this reply.

Yeah, loving your (+)'s - thats the plan.

in terms of the negative, well, nothing were doing is that critical that if it breaks down for a while well miss the next big gig... i do appreciate the idea of just getting a stereo master deck is a good one.

I dont even know where this idea has come from but i do seem infatuated with the idea now.

heres an example of something similar, were a bit more acid and upfront but still lots of effects etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbxlXFirP8U

also you can check out my soundcloud for a few of the earlier tracks weve done.

cheers


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http://www.paradigmx.com

Edited by Paradigm X (21/07/12 08:14 PM)

A slippery slope arse-backwards into a bottomless abyss, I sez...

You'll obviously be needing one of these CLASP doo-dads soon:

http://www.endlessanalog.com/products-page

Although before you sell off your UAD-2, you might see if you can demo the Studer A800 and Amplex ATR-102 plug-ins:

http://www.uaudio.com/store/special-processing/studer-a800-tape-recorder.h tml

http://www.uaudio.com/store/special-processing/ampex-atr-102.html

=Goddard
(holding onto my Midistudio just in case...)

I think you should just do it. I mean, at the end of the day, you want to, and why not? We should occasionally do things in life which we want to do even if on paper there are problems. Do it.

J

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www.jackruston.com

Quote Jack Ruston:

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I think you should just do it. I mean, at the end of the day, you want to, and why not? We should occasionally do things in life which we want to do even if on paper there are problems. Do it.

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Yes. I kind of agree. Some of the best, most interesting and fun things I've done in my life/career is when I have gone against all convention and against what others perceive as common sense...

And some of the dullest things I've done have been when I have taken the 'safe' advice meted out by others!

Daft, impractical sports car or safe eco-vehicle?

Big, room dominating modular analogue synth or software VA plug-in VSTi?

I know which I'd go for ... and have! And they weren't the latter of either options! And they are more fun than is allowable with your trousers on!!!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Could be worth doing - if the plan turns out to be a crock, then at least you'll have satisfied the urge

Yeah - go for it. I did a few years ago, and wasted some time / money but I learned a hell of a lot. You cant second guess forums trying to understand what things sound like - hear it for yourself, tape was an important media for arguably the most important period of recorded music, its worth knowing about.

Me, I ended up keeping a Tascam 22-2 1/4" mastering machine - its lovely, push it for electronic stuff - instant Trax! I know you can do it in a computer, but whats the logical outcome of that - never having to get up off the chair, and a sore wrist. Does our world have to be reduced to just looking at pretty pictures of what things used to look like? - thats some nightmare sci-fi future we dont want!?

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Well, ive had a really long think about this, and have concluded that im going to get... the HD24.

I know, after all of the above.

But i had a really good think about the way we work, and the one thing we were both very impressed with is the way the zoom r16 is just turn on and go. Never used the alesis, but by all accounts im going to have to spend a lot of time and money on the 8track. Neither of us are professional musicians, so we havent got time to faff about with it. When we get an aftenoon to have a play, it would be ncie to spend it playing rather than calibrating, or aligning, or whatever !

The fact that the alesis has 24 tracks, and a simple transfer to pc/archive system, and the price of IDE hard drives these days just seals the deal basically...

The thing is were both really happy with the sound were getting just out of a 12 input desk and the zoom, the improvement with 24 tracks, with a recording and dubbing phase is likely to be amazing.

It was almost akin to a midlife crisis. I would have been insane. Ive never used, or even seen a real reel to reel (!), so i wouldn't know what im buying. Or how to use, or maintain or... The difference in cost between the two will be eaten up in tapes and one service in no time. And id have to come up with a backup routine. I havent got the time and money to pour into it.

So for now, im thinking record live > alesis : mixdown to PC (basically as a tape recorder), will do for now. Possibly look into a nice stereo tape recorder in the future.

With all the plugins and UAD etc ive sold, and with cubase also to go, I should be (just) able to afford an alesis andromeda (another dream machine) and the hd24... and be skint for a few months.

I thank you all for our input and experience, its been a very helpful exercise. Your input has been valuable. (Un?)fortunately, common sense seems to have prevailed in this case.

Many thanks, regards

Ben

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http://www.paradigmx.com

I have 2 HD24's here, not in use these days. HD24 is great, the XR has incredible ADDA a very serious machine. They use them in Royal Albert Hall, serious kit IMO. They tend to hold their price cause they are excellent.

All the best with it.

SafeandSound Mastering
Mastering studio

do you want to sell one?


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http://www.paradigmx.com

Hi Paradigm, thanks for the interest, not currently, whilst mastering is going very well right now, one never knows in this odd industry.

SafeandSound Mastering
Mastering studio

There are lots and lots of things you have to do with analogue tape:- regular maintenance, head alignment, tape path alignment, azimuth adjustment, cleaning and demagnatising, bias adjustment, Dolby level adjustment, etc., etc., etc.......

All that is true if you are working at Abbey Road in the 1970's. But since you aren't just buy the tape deck and use it. As for tape, you can still get tons of it second hand. I have got boxes and boxes of 2" tape, even more 1/4" tape, and ten boxes of digital 1/2" tape. I mooched around the internet for all this tape, and I keep it in a cool dry place.

The thing is, pro tape decks have a sound that just sounds great for whatever reason. People will eagerly tell you that the sound is distorted, coloured by noise and or 3rd order harmonics or whatever, and that's what you are hearing. Well so what? If it sounds good who cares why?

When I got my first tape deck (an Otari the size of a washing machine boasting 2 tracks. and two glowing yellow/orange VDU meters, lit transport buttons, and warm tape smell) I transferred all my favourite DVD's to tape and could not get enough of listening to them.

It is still my favourite way of listening after 5 years or more. I haven't aligned nor adjusted anything, and it still sounds fab. No doubt someone with an oscilloscope at Abbey Road would look up to heaven, shake their head and declare the thing condemned. In that 5 years you'd have changed your pc or your HD at least once. and with it the software, or re-licensing with all it's attendant hassle.

Just go for it dude, you will enjoy it.

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The only excuse we have for making music in the first place is to make it differently..vis-a-vis our own difference (Glenn Gould)

Edited by Howdy Doody Time (24/07/12 03:51 AM)