Make a date for your diary: Friday 3rd August 15.00 UK time!

The August issue of Sound On Sound features an in-depth review of the new Behringer X32 digital mixing console which has redefined the price/performance benchmark for the live sound console market, and a second follow-up article is planned after using the desk in genuine live sound situations.

Given the huge interest that the X32 console has generated, Sound on Sound is delighted to announce an exclusive live SOS Forum Q&A session with Uli Behringer to discuss the X32 and related products, as well as the Music Group’s plans following its acquisition of Midas, Klark Teknik and Turbosound. This live forum Q&A session will be held on Friday 3rd August, between 15.00-16.00 UK time*, on the Live Sound & Performance forum (www.soundonsound/forum).

Joining Uli Behringer to help answer corporate questions will be Costa Lakoumentas (Senior Vice-President Marketing), while Jan Duwe (Product Manager for the X32) and Christian Stahl (Marketing Communications) will also be on hand for in-depth questioning about the X32 console.

The X32 console is a revolutionary product for Behringer, and the first to draw on the expertise of the Midas and Klark Teknik companies which are now part of the Music Group.

(*Corresponding times for other world locations: Los Angeles 07.00-08.00, New York 10.00-11.00, Rio de Janeiro 11.00-12.00, Sydney 00.00-01.00 Saturday)

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I think someone needs to be reminded about not double posting!!!

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www.Lozjackson.com

...and advertising too!

This is a first for the SOS forums and may lead on to many more similar sessions with other manufacturers if it is successful. So I want to make sure that as many people as possible are aware of it...

But apologies for the quadruple posting

H

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Sounds interesting. I have a question, would Behringer consider making a serious mastering equalizer? As a step into new territory, maybe it could be a personal challenge for Uli, stepped controls, stereo ganged, transformer I/O something along those lines for < £600.00 that would be an interesting product.

Also there is a decent market for a reasonably priced reliable, small broadcast console with remote cd starts, 4 mics with insert points, fader monitor cuts, a couple of stereo auxes/mono for mic channels, 2 stereo buses (tx /record) both with inserts points for a station processor. Create an over specced wallwart PSU so it is reliable.(and you have a back up supply ready to go) Some of the radio producers I have worked with in my past career often ask about such a product and there is little even close this side of £5K without loads of compromises.

Just ideas off the top of my head.

SafeandSound Mastering
Online mastering studio

Quote SafeandSound Mastering:

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I have a question, would Behringer consider making a serious mastering equalizer?

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Pretty specialised niche product for a notoriously picky market... can't see it happening myself -- but please do join in on Friday and ask them yourself.

Quote:

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Also there is a decent market for a reasonably priced reliable, small broadcast console with remote cd starts, 4 mics with insert points, fader monitor cuts, a couple of stereo auxes/mono for mic channels, 2 stereo buses (tx /record) both with inserts points for a station processor.

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Seen the A&H XB14? It costs under a grand and ticks all your requirements.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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But apologies for the quadruple posting

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ok, just make sure it doesn't happen again... or I'll report you.. consider yourself warned.



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www.Lozjackson.com

Serious question.

Considering Behringers reputation for quality and reliability, what steps have they taken to ensure users that their revised products are of sufficient standard now they are moving out of the budget end of the market.

The thought of spending 2K on something with a Behringer badge fills me with terror. In fact frankly, I just wouldn't do it at the moment, so what would Uli do to change my mind?

It's a good question, and you're not alone in asking it. I have to say that I unpacked the X32 to review it with some trepidation after some bad experiences of my own with other B products.

However, as much as I expected and even wanted to find evidence of poor quality and reliability, I simply couldn't, and I ended up being genuinely impressed with the thing. Time will tell on the reliability front, of course, but all the early reports seem very good.

However, why not ask the man directly on Friday -- he is expecting this kind of question. Let's not disappoint him!

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I'm sure that the reason for the vibrant 2nd hand market in Behringer gear is the idea that if it will last for a year, it will probably go on forever-ish.

Will there be some way to organise 'class' questions so we don't get 250 people asking "how does it feel to be the one that dragged Germany's reputation for reliability and quality into the gutter for 10+ years?"

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote shufflebeat:

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Will there be some way to organise 'class' questions

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Good idea!

Not going to be able to make the Q&A due to work commitments, but gathering a few FAQ's and posting the results would be a good idea. Although if the answer to my question is unsatisfactory I wouldn't bother reading the rest...

This will be something of an experiment -- a forum is an interesting place to try to hold a Q&A session and I'm sure there will be a certain amount of chaos involved due to the inherent latency.

However, I will gather the various questions raised in this and the other threads during the week to ask by way of getting the ball rolling, and we'll see where that takes us.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I hope someone has a chance to ask about the amazing-if-true-but-as-yet-unconfirmed-urban-legend regarding the 3 year insurance/assurance policy, as referenced in the copied post below:


Post July 20, 2012 at 11:31 AM on this thread: Exclusions to 3-Year Warranty?

Quote STRANGY:

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Looks interesting. Limited 3 year warranty sounds promising. Just better hope it's not one of the following that fail:

Digital Displays / LCDs
Meters
Switches / Sensors
VRS / Potentiometers
Loudspeaker drivers or diaphragm assemblies
All faders including cross-faders and motorized faders
Any mechanical component that may be affected by externally applied force

Excluded from the 3years by looks of the small print on the web site.

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I think said warranty is Behringer's only legitimate defense against charges that it would be silly to spend that kind of $ on a product from a company whose main defining characteristic might reasonably be described as "reliable of shoddy workmanship, products destined to fail too soon, but OK value at the usual rock-bottom prices".

$2K+ isn't rock bottom price anymore, regardless of what feature set is included!

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Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

I think it's a great idea.

I'd like to see if Behringer would ever get into making synthesizers :-)
I know there was a survey a while back they did where they asked what every one's fave synth was, I think no1 was the Juno 106

As to the issues with build quality I don't think it's anything to do with their manufacturing facilities as they seem to be state of the art facilities but more with the stuff they stick in em or poor design.

Edited by vinyl_junkie (30/07/12 06:14 PM)

FWIW, I don't think it's either of them; I think it's that testing anything with a front-panel needs a human being, and human beings on a production line are expensive.

One question from me. The Mackie DL1608 is a nifty idea. Once Behringer have got the iPad/PC app properly sorted with the X32, would a similar interface-less mixer based on the X32 architecture be on the cards? (Or perhaps similar-but-different - personally I could see a 2U/3U rackmount box being an alternative way of doing the same trick with a different format.)

Oh, and another question. A lot of people have been asking about sending MIDI to the DAW, but there's another option. The DDX3216 could record automation and parameter changes onto its memory card. If the X32 could record its parameter changes *and* inputs onto the USB stick, you would effectively have a hugely capable portastudio, and users could potentially work entirely in the X32 without needing a DAW. Any thoughts this way?

If you keep it going for around 6 hours I might join in

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

I've had a couple of products over the years & they've been fit for purpose given the price. However, having tried to decipher a few of their manuals, I have to wonder whether there's going to be a language problem?

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Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

I suggest getting a coffee and some biscuits and then sitting down and reading this:

http://soundforums.net/varsity/4299-uli-behringer-music-group-q.html

The subject of quality and reliability comes up several times.

HTH.

Stu.

Then this is the perfect time to air and chair these inquiries.

Hugh, I think this is a great idea and I would love to see this extended to all manufacturers.

Horse's mouth situation would be a real acid test for both sides.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Thanks Hugh, I was aware of the A+H, I think it was number of channels that meant it was a bit small stereo sources wise but it does indeed fulfill everything. It is much better specced than I recall it being. Thanks for reminding me, it has a hell of a feature set and I like A+H as a rule.

cheers

SafeandSound Mastering
online mastering studio

Quote jaminem:

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Serious question.


Considering Behringers reputation for quality and reliability, what steps have they taken to ensure users that their revised products are of sufficient standard now they are moving out of the budget end of the market.

The thought of spending 2K on something with a Behringer badge fills me with terror. In fact frankly, I just wouldn't do it at the moment, so what would Uli do to change my mind?

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lol,
that's very possible they will have a new name for those products
to separate it from B-ringer bad name:)
although I don't entirely follow B-ringer haters,
I own midi step controller, bcr2000 and bcn44 midi controllers
it;s very interesting to see they will step up from copying someone else design and make their own

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online mastering studio | mastering audio

Quote mpostor:

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I suggest getting a coffee and some biscuits and then sitting down and reading this:

http://soundforums.net/varsity/4299-uli-behringer-music-group-q.html

The subject of quality and reliability comes up several times.

HTH.

Stu.

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Very interesting read that, already lots of good questions and answers

Quote mpostor:

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I suggest getting a coffee and some biscuits and then sitting down and reading this:

http://soundforums.net/varsity/4299-uli-behringer-music-group-q.html

The subject of quality and reliability comes up several times.

HTH.

Stu.

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QI.

Seems it was all the fault of the Chinese. Feeble.

I'm not really bitter, I've only had a few problems of my own and the feedback destroyer and cable tester (adapted to avoid self destruction) I do have are trundling on with only the odd sprinkle of holy water (deoxit) and glued down screws.

What gets me is the huge, huge waste of resources and the apparent assumption that if you can survive the returns and the badmouthing of those who just give up and dump the offending unit then you can claim success.

This all sounds a bit British Leyland.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the X32 worked perfectly for a lifetime but nobody knew because only a few trusting souls were prepared to take a chance on it.

I know it's cheap enough to take a chance on but the fact that this is the common tag line speaks volumes.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Make a date for your diary: Friday 3rd August 15.00 UK time!

The August issue of Sound On Sound features an in-depth review of the new Behringer X32 digital mixing console which has redefined the price/performance benchmark for the live sound console market, and a second follow-up article is planned after using the desk in genuine live sound situations.

Given the huge interest that the X32 console has generated, Sound on Sound is delighted to announce an exclusive live SOS Forum Q&A session with Uli Behringer to discuss the X32 and related products, as well as the Music Group’s plans following its acquisition of Midas, Klark Teknik and Turbosound. This live forum Q&A session will be held on Friday 3rd August, between 15.00-16.00 UK time*, on the Live Sound & Performance forum (www.soundonsound/forum).

Joining Uli Behringer to help answer corporate questions will be Costa Lakoumentas (Senior Vice-President Marketing), while Jan Duwe (Product Manager for the X32) and Christian Stahl (Marketing Communications) will also be on hand for in-depth questioning about the X32 console.

The X32 console is a revolutionary product for Behringer, and the first to draw on the expertise of the Midas and Klark Teknik companies which are now part of the Music Group.

(*Corresponding times for other world locations: Los Angeles 07.00-08.00, New York 10.00-11.00, Rio de Janeiro 11.00-12.00, Sydney 00.00-01.00 Saturday)

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Sorry Hugh,

I have thought long and hard about this and there is an appointment that I cannot cancel.

You see I have to pick my toenails that afternoon.

Of course it will not be my toenails that I am picking. You see, I have made a practice of stealing other people's toenails so I can facilitate the significant volumes of toenail picking that I prefer. Of course, once I have finished picking them, I am typically so disgusted with the result that I throw the toenails away immediately, because the experience of picking someone else's toenails reminds me what picking my own toenails feels like, not a lot, but I know it is better and more satisfying. Even if I do get any satisfaction from the process, the toenails, having been detached from their owner, break easily or will not perform the toenail-picking function at all.

If this appointment falls through, I have another appointment to f**k myself up the *rse with a broken bottle. It will, of course, not be my broken bottle...

Reg

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Google less; read more!

As Red M alluded to, I wonder why they did not use another name for this product?

The range of Bugera amps seems to have a fairly good rep'? Fools nobody of course and "we" would all know that the mixer was a Behringer under the bonnet but if it is not "in yer face"?

Dave.

Quote RegressiveRock:

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I have thought long and hard about this and there is an appointment that I cannot cancel.

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Thanks for that unusually unhelpful and fairly disgusting reply.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote ef37a:

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As Red M alluded to, I wonder why they did not use another name for this product?

The range of Bugera amps seems to have a fairly good rep'? Fools nobody of course and "we" would all know that the mixer was a Behringer under the bonnet but if it is not "in yer face"?

Dave.

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V pos. Keep the family brand ID:

Bugerd

Or at a tangent:

Tempo-rary
Do4Now
Boomerang (no disrespect to others implied)
1in4

End of cynical rant (we'll see).

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote RegressiveRock:

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I have thought long and hard about this and there is an appointment that I cannot cancel.

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Thanks for that unusually unhelpful and fairly disgusting reply.

Hugh

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....Quite.
I have an ongoing, CLEAN beef!
I find there is a signal block diagram for the X32 in the Quick Start Guide but not in the user manual? Some years ago all Behringer mixer manuals carried such a diagram then it disappeared. Sometimes it could be found in a "specification" separate download, often now not.
Such diagrams are invaluable when trying to explain signal paths on forums.

Dave.

The last time I looked there was only a 'preliminary' user manual -- and there's not much in in yet - and it's only been added inthe last few weeks, and it's smaller in file size than the quick-start guide!

I'm sure the block diagam will be included in the final version of the user guide -- they've already created the diagram, after all.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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The last time I looked there was only a 'preliminary' user manual -- and there's not much in in yet - and it's only been added inthe last few weeks, and it's smaller in file size than the quick-start guide!

I'm sure the block diagam will be included in the final version of the user guide -- they've already created the diagram, after all.

hugh

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Bet it won't be! If whoever decides these things stays true to form the diagram will never make it to the user manual. This is now common throughout the Behringer product range AFAICT and some products do not have the diagram at all in some cases.
Cannot understand why it was ever dropped from the manual in the first place!

Dave.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote RegressiveRock:

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I have thought long and hard about this and there is an appointment that I cannot cancel.

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Thanks for that unusually unhelpful and fairly disgusting reply.

Hugh

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Hugh

I know what I said was unhelpful and quite deliberately boorish and callous. Nevertheless, I took quite some time in composing my original comments note to ensure that they fell within the typical practise of fair comment for publications whilst, I admit, using the resource of the worst, Frankie Boyle—esque, gutter bathos.

It is part of the continuing testament to the spirit of self-expression and journalistic balance espoused by both SoS as an organisation and you, Hugh, in particular that you have chosen to reply to my commentary on tomorrow’s marketing interview with a manufacturer simply by expressing your disappointment. It underlines the open-mindedness and patience of you and your firm.

However, speaking as someone who is occasionally lucky to spend to with some true British innovators in our field and feels considerable sadness at the efforts to which they are forced to go to (often unsuccessfully) protect their intellectual property, (and here is where I shall take great care to remain within the rules of fair comment), I personally find the difficulties of these people, some of whom I regard as personal friends evoke strong negative and emotional reactions in me.

I have seen many allegations on many fora regarding the superficial similarity of certain manufacturers’ products to those of the original innovators that designed them, I state this purely for the record and will not for the purposes of brevity make any comment on their validity, merely make comment that they exist. I have seen many allegations about reliability. With regard to these latter allegations, personal experience early in my involvement with certain manufacturers’ equipment bears this out. To be balanced, I gave one small desktop mixer to a friend. It still works: he has friends around occasionally to marvel at it! (For those who do not get the last sentence this is sarcasm for reasons of emphasis).

There are some counterarguments to the above that include framing the behaviour of certain manufacturers more in the light of the current Apple v Samsung disagreement. My personal take on this is that these arguments do not take into the account of the commercial imbalances created by domiciling certain manufacturers in territories where the pursuit of intellectual property disputes is difficult enough to make even the few larger firms in the industry take pause for thought. I note that amongst those manufacturers who have been the subjects of these debates, there has been little effort to copy Apple Logic or Apogee products to the best of my knowledge.

Another common counter-argument frames such manufacturers as populists creating a level playing field for all and cheap entry to the industry. Now here, much as I may not personally agree, there is some merit in the argument, not least because, in a totally hobby-orientated environment, access to cheap equipment is entirely appropriate. However, if we allow this argument to succeed, we have to concede that there may be no such thing as an entirely hobby-orientated environment. Also, there are people out there who develop this argument to include the cracking of software and the redistribution of artist material and so on. Also this argument fails to address basic business practices such as licensing of intellectual property.

So when it comes to certain manufacturers issuing this new thingummy or that new wangdoodle, I could not give a fig. I do not even care if the new jobby uses more respectable technology and tries to clean up their brand image. I look at where the money came from to buy said brands. Then I remember looking at a man that I regard as one of the great innovators of the last 30 years in the console-design industry wearing jumpers with holes in the elbows, even if this may at least in part be due to his slightly professorial nature. After that I remember the pained frustration on the face a sound designer we both know very well finding a cracked version of one of his sound modules for sale online within 48 hours of its launch.

One manufacturer where there are many opportunities to document that it has faced such allegations in the past has been known to use a motto: “Just Listen”. I sincerely hope that firm might use this generous opportunity from SoS to do less talking about its new product and more listening to its client base.

The much talked elephant in the room here is that for some of us, it is simply way too late. I’d rather go back to strumming guitars and not recording them at all than use anything made by that firm.

Reg

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Google less; read more!

When everyone decides to slate all those companies making clones of Neumann mics, Neve and API preamps, LA2A and 1176 compressors, Pultec EQs, EMT and Lexicon reverbs, Space Echo delays, etc etc etc, with these clones often sold as "boutique" top-dollar professional/luxury gear, then I'll have no problems with people slating Behringer for producing stuff based on other people's designs.

But until they similarly decide to boycott Great River, UAD, Manley, Golden Age and everyone else doing clones or models of "classic" bits of hardware, that high horse they're on is more than a little unsteady on its legs.

Sure, some of that stuff is no longer in production. Fair enough. Now try the same argument for LA2A or 1176 compressors, SSL or Neve channel strips, or Neumann mics...

Quote RegressiveRock:

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However, speaking as someone who is occasionally lucky to spend to with some true British innovators in our field and feels considerable sadness at the efforts to which they are forced to go to (often unsuccessfully) protect their intellectual property, ... I personally find the difficulties of these people, some of whom I regard as personal friends evoke strong negative and emotional reactions in me.

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Reg, thanks for that reply -- I appreciate the time and effort involved in creating it. I also totally understand your views and concerns on the subject in hand.

I am quite certain some of those taking part will wish to discuss these things with Uli and his colleagues tomorrow and I would encourage them to do so -- respectfully, of course, but in depth if they want to explore that aspect of the company's history and reputation. These are important issues and should be discussed.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Anybody want to buy a Y32? Yeah I know its name bears a slight resemblance to another product but its built in a far more democractic way by using cheap parts and manufacturing techniques, whilst basically ripping off the design and marketing of a real company. Wins all round, I'd say!

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Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound

Fair points Grab.
Many of the "emulations" are of course properly licensed but many are not as is evidenced by the twee names given to certain guitar amp types, "clean tweed" etc. But perhaps some duth protest too much? Business is business and you have to be careful. I do not doubt that there was a most undignified scramble to garner the secrets of the tape recorder in 1945? We all know where Rocket Science came from! Ok to rip off the bad guys?
Closer to home my last employer took reasonable "anti-B" precautions. Not because the circuits were particularly innovative (except in the guitar amp/pedal field) but because the actual component values were arrived at by the burning of lot of midnight oil, fags, cursing, soldering and playing, and round that loop ad inf! (I am convinced that the reason the pedals have not been copied is because they are very well made but very good value and "they" probably looked at them and thought "we can't make this sufficently badly and cheaply to compete"!).

Dave.

Quote grab:

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When everyone decides to slate all those companies making clones of Neumann mics, Neve and API preamps, LA2A and 1176 compressors, Pultec EQs, EMT and Lexicon reverbs, Space Echo delays, etc etc etc, with these clones often sold as "boutique" top-dollar professional/luxury gear, then I'll have no problems with people slating Behringer for producing stuff based on other people's designs.

But until they similarly decide to boycott Great River, UAD, Manley, Golden Age and everyone else doing clones or models of "classic" bits of hardware, that high horse they're on is more than a little unsteady on its legs.

Sure, some of that stuff is no longer in production. Fair enough. Now try the same argument for LA2A or 1176 compressors, SSL or Neve channel strips, or Neumann mics...

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Without getting holier than thou, (unholier might be closer to the mark):

Neumann clones: none
Neve clones: none
API clones: none
LA2A clones: none
1176 clones: none
Pultec clones: none
EMT clones: none
Lexicon clones: none.

Emulations, there might be some reverb emulations that come built into Logic but apart from that I own none of them because I find them ultimately unsatisfying, I guess, rather than any objection to properly licensed emulations in themselves.

Great River products: none
UAD products: none
Manley products: none
Golden Age products: none

There are certain manufacturers who have genuinely attempted to build new platforms making strong reliance on classic designs (and not those who just add transformers made from coils of element Omega wound on the thighs of captured Carpathian tooth fairies) whose products tempt me.

I do own an Avantone mix cube!

Apart from that everything I have as far as I can determine is the work of European and American designers who own the intellectual property from which they earn their corn.

If you want great plug-ins that do not show you pretty pictures of Rupert Neve's designs to distract you from the basic jobs you need to get on with when mixing, try some of Aleksey Vanneev's work at Voxengo:

http://www.voxengo.com/about-voxengo/

He is, in my view, an exceptionally talented plug designer who has got back to the essence of audio engineering design in a software age without poncing anybody else's work. I own loads of his plugs and as he offers a fair price, I can afford to own loads more when I want or need more.

Reg

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Google less; read more!

Sorry Reg, there are clones for most of those things you mentioned, except the reverbs.

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Quote Chaconne:

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Sorry Reg, there are clones for most of those things you mentioned, except the reverbs.

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I know there are mate, I just do not see any real reason to own them... In fact some of the things that all these guys spend their time cloning, I do not see much reason to spend the time cloning them. The last is a personal view.

Reg

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Google less; read more!

Fair enough - in which case, respect for following that through.

Please note that both the date and forum location of this event have been changed, for reasons beyond our control. Apologies for any disappointment! We are awaiting a new date from The Music Group and will post the information here as soon as it becomes available.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound