Discuss

Kirill wins! Girls go to jail.
Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin is unworthy to guide russia into the future.

shown a "complete lack of respect".
'Dis the Pute and you go to jail. Sickening.

If they survive the two years, this'll only boost their notoriety and hence they'll be in demand. Music Martyrs.

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We don't know what the sentence is yet but the jail term was expected by the girls themselves. What has been conspicuously missing in the volley of voices in their defense (Amnesty International, Madonna, Paul McCartney et al) is Putin's opposition in Russia itself. Speculation is that support for the Church, homophobia and a general lack of respect for women has made it inexpedient for the opposition to come to the girls defense. So we can heap all the blame on Putin (I'm no fan of his) but I think the situation these girls find themselves in is a little more complex than that.

They are educated, eloquent and know exactly what they are doing. They had a choice, which was to fight their fight inside Russia or ship out and use a safer stage. They (very bravely) chose the former. Presumably with self sacrifice in mind and to make their point more strongly. Unfortunately 99.9% of Russia couldn't give a toss.

Let's hope the sentence is lenient... Ah! Breaking News - its on the wires - 2 years. That's on the lite side of what was being asked for by the prosecutor. Putin the merciful, my arse!

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Strictly project and just for fun

I notice the http://www.musiciansunion.org.uk has sunk to new depths with this one - it's not even MENTIONED on their website. Too full of articles clamouring for free West End parking spaces and about how they totally failed to stop musicians being made to play for free at the 2012 Olympics. Pathetic.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Also in the news today... this BBC report on Gay Pride marches being banned in Moscow for the next 100 years. Pussy Riot were, amongst other things challenging homophobia in Russia. I really do think it was the main reason they were deserted by most Russians. Attitudes to homosexuality in Russia are behind where we were even before we legalized it here in the UK. They are not alone. Similar levels of intolerance exist across Africa and the Middle East and frankly a lot of people in Eastern Europe are a bit confused about how to deal with all that EU Human Rights stuff as well. There are other places too. We western liberals comprise quite a small little club in the wider scheme of things.

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Strictly project and just for fun

To true Mr Frisonic, though I was a little taken aback by all the reading out of the 'offences to god' and such like in the court. I thought the church had its power more squashed during communism.

Its a shock to hear the idea of god being miffed used in a prosecution. Well I guess he must have appeared on the stand, but I missed it.

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Quote Chaconne:

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I thought the church had its power more squashed during communism.

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You're right. It was. But it's been making a come back. This is what Pussy Riot wanted everybody to realise. To help the comeback along the church started mentioning the benefits of Mr Putin, in the sermons around election time. I guess that's why they got so much air time during the trial. As you say, Stalin covered that by dispensing with elections, leaving him free to dispense with the church. No point in having to compete with god, after all? It seems Russia is cool either way so long as no batty boys!

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote johnny h:

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Discuss

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I will catch the taxi driver weeping like a wounded beast.

Reg

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Google less; read more!

I wonder how long I'd get. I despise all organised religion with equal venom and I've absolutely no respect for any of them. And why should I? And how far do we take this 'respect'? Is it only for major religions? Do we prevent women from playing the didgeridoo because it offends Aboriginal beliefs? What I find bizarrely contradictory about religious people is: what does it really matter if someone insults 'God'? Surely they believe God -creator of all worlds in all times- can deal with it Himself?

I just respect people and nature. Respecting people (and the continuing flow of my blood-circuit ) means that I wouldn't go out of my way to offend their beliefs however absurd they seem to me... unless it was necessary to make a more important statement (as it seems to be in this case).

On the other hand, I suspect these girls are looking forward to a lucrative European tour contract when they get out! I don't mean to be cynical (much) but 2 years in custody with a guarantee of fame and prosperity vs 2 years of probably getting nowhere before giving up? Not me, but I reckon quite a few people would seriously consider these options carefully! I dare say that (hopefully) measures will be taken to prevent anything bad happening to them in custody (to save the government further 'embarrassment').

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I just respect people and nature. Respecting people (and the continuing flow of my blood-circuit ) means that I wouldn't go out of my way to offend their beliefs however absurd they seem to me... unless it was necessary to make a more important statement (as it seems to be in this case).
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This is an interesting statement taken as a whole: "Out of respect for you, I won't offend you, unless I think it's important to". Well, that's better than leaving the door open for offending for reasons that include the trivial!

Does this reasoning extend to: "I respect nature, and therefore won't pollute unless I think I really feel the need"?

I'm trying to figure out how to get these ideas into a song, but am running into writer's block for some reason ...

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Alexis -Cubase 6.5.0/SX3.1.1.944, XP SP2, 4GB RAM (1GB not accessible, but used just to balance the computer so it doesn't tip over); Delta 66 in Omni i/O Studio; Motif8; UAD-1

Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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On the other hand, I suspect these girls are looking forward to a lucrative European tour contract when they get out! I don't mean to be cynical (much) but 2 years in custody with a guarantee of fame and prosperity vs 2 years of probably getting nowhere before giving up? Not me, but I reckon quite a few people would seriously consider these options carefully! I dare say that (hopefully) measures will be taken to prevent anything bad happening to them in custody (to save the government further 'embarrassment').

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I don't share your cynicism Josif. These girls are highly educated, well plugged in to 'alternative' Russian culture (which is a very small club) and knew exactly what they were getting themselves into. They also knew they would get an easier ride outside Russia (London is full of Russians who just feel safer here) and yes, they might very well have done good box on the European circuit. But they consciously chose to keep their protest inside the tent (literally) rather than making it from outside. Personally I think that was bonkers - there is never any point in picking a fight you can't win. They are regarded as martyrs outside Russia, sure. But not inside. In two years they will be old news. So what was the point?

I agree the girls will likely be well enough looked after and possibly even released a little early. But I've seen some quite astute commentators making silly assertions about 'Russia's statement to the world'. Putin wasn't making a statement to the world. He was making it to Russians. He doesn't give a toss what the world thinks. He knows exactly where his place in it is for the next 8 years and exactly how he's going to use it. Most Russian's love him for that. Ironically enough of them for him to have easily won a free and fair election (I guess he just couldn't help himself messing with it). Personally I dislike the man but there is no denying that he is very, very clever at reading Russian runes and fearless in doing as he sees fit.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote alexis:

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I'm trying to figure out how to get these ideas into a song, but am running into writer's block for some reason ...

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That's going to be a tough sell in Texas Alexis!

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Strictly project and just for fun

Quote Josif A. Soterίou:

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Respecting people (and the continuing flow of my blood-circuit ) means that I wouldn't go out of my way to offend their beliefs however absurd they seem to me... unless it was necessary to make a more important statement (as it seems to be in this case).
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Quote alexis:

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Does this reasoning extend to: "I respect nature, and therefore won't pollute unless I think I really feel the need"?

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Well, nature is all there really is (in my view), so I respect it automatically. Also because... it's beautiful and awesome, because I feel part of it, and because my existence relies on it. It feels strange even to call nature an 'it' to me, as if there were something else.

But, we ALL (even the most careful of people) pollute the environment to some extent out of necessity -so unfortunately yes. Even making a push bike, hydrogen car, rechargeable battery or wind turbine pollutes the environment.

Offending people is often necessary and important too. Also, I'm not convinced people get genuinely offended by such things. I think they like to be seen to be offended, for other's respect, attention, sympathy, etc.

I say, if people are so easily offended they need to get out more... and grow a backbone!!!

Quote Frisonic:

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I don't share your cynicism Josif. These girls are highly educated, well plugged in to 'alternative' Russian culture (which is a very small club) and knew exactly what they were getting themselves into...

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I'm sure they are. My cynicism was more directed at the way things are (e.g. that they probably will get a lucrative contract out of it -and good luck to them!) than at their own true intentions at present.

You may be right. The thing is they seem 'crazy' enough to not want a lucrative contract. They are 'real' punks. The like we used to see a lot of back in England circa 1976 but don't 'see' much of today (it probably still exists but by virtue of its nature it remains mostly invisible unless you go looking for it - having found it you will probably also find its more or less free). In terms of 'suffering for their art' I suspect these girls are the real deal. They're a tough lot, those Russians. But there are children involved and needs must, so maybe they will accept some remuneration when they have the chance. You can't argue with a mother!

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Strictly project and just for fun

Yes, this is awful.



I wrote and recorded this song two months ago and truly believed it would never be released, as pussy riot would be found not-guilty, returning to their children and freedom.

This is my little way of saying how sorry I am for the unimaginable predicament they are in.

Leah x

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www.punkdisco.co.uk
Text SLUT to: 29 7 29 7: New Video

I seem to remember our British courts getting very sniffy over a lad who was disrespectful to a war memorial last year. There was a period when American courts handed down lengthy sentences for a sniff of a soft drug. These girls knew the system and set out to provoke. They succeeded. If it hadn't been in Russia, the Daily Mail would have thoroughly approved.

This case has provoked international interest. I'd like people to note that this happens in Russia all the time; practically on a daily basis and, as always, no matter what , western nations can do NOTHING about this.

The Russia gov does not need us, they cannot be reasoned with and even more than any western nation, they only deal when there is a financial or positioning advantage. Forget international pressure; it hasn't worked in any other Russian rights case and has about as much moral effect as arguing with North Korea. The only difference is they have an open tourist policy which makes us happy Euros think "they're one of us".

They (the Russian gov system) are not.

Would you LIKE other nations to be able to infulence the Russian courts in this sort of case?

We have some pretty draconian laws too, particularly where insult to a race or religion is concerned.

Should Russia have got involved over our sentencing policies after last summer's riots and looting? Should America infulence us into tearing up the whole concept of diplomatic immunity because they want to punish someone for making them look silly?

I would love nothing more that Russia to pay attention to the wishes of their people and the opinions of international sympathisers. But as I said before - I've spent some time in Russia and it is NOT like here. You're talking about a country where people still "disappear". A country that allies itself with Iran and Syria. These girls have ben sentenced grossly unfairly - but if the news hadn't broke internationally believe me, it would have ben MUCH worse.... I guess in that sense the news has had some effect.

Draconian laws? We do sometimes - but we have nothing compared to the completely ridiculous way the Russian state treats its people. A brutal country thinly disguised as a "western" nation. Completely controlled by organised crime and the military (often the same people). We have nothing like that in the UK. Russia is one step away from legislated torture. There is no freedom there.

As I mentioned earlier - and I guess you're going to disagree with my view but lets stay chatting, I have no problem with the sentencing over last summer riots. Discussing the prosecution of last years riots is not really comparable to people making a protest for basic freedoms and trying to raise international awareness that suit and tie wearing politicians in Russia may as well be gun toting fuckwits under Robert Mugabe.

the point I'm trying to get across - and perhaps I have- the russian government is absolutely terrible; and not terrible like a euro gov. But brutal beyond acceptability.

As for America - I rather think we have no choice in those matters. A case of "agree or else".... I don't envy the UK gov and the way they have to deal with the USA. Personally I feel closer to our european neighbours....

I don't disagree with any of what Narcoman has said. These are serious points and they are undoubtably correct. Except... as one of the few people in Europe (never mind these forums) who is prepared to stand up for the USA I'd like to say this in their mitigation for the mistrust I know most Europeans feel for American government (not necessarily regular Americans, that being a different matter and really only that comes down to taste):

They (American government) have taken it upon themselves to become the 'world's police'. That's what people really object to. But how did that situation come about? I'd say firstly they ended up becoming the worlds only 'super power' as a consequence of the Cold War and the demise of the USSR at the end of it (today China are catching up fast as a contender but still not really in the frame). That gave them a distorted super status in the balance of world power. But the Cold War is not where it started. That was WWII. It was America that was responsible for the defeat of Naziism. Without them it would probably have ended differently. When that finished America said 'no more' and started putting together institutions designed to prevent the world from degenerating into that situation ever again. Noble stuff actually, because whilst it always wants to sell you something it was big enough in those days to have a self sustaining economy and ignore everybody else). These included the United Nations and NATO (and the burgeoning ideas that developed into the interdependence of the European Union, which prevents at least Europe from going to war with itself). BUT Europe as a whole didn't meet up to its obligations. Europeans didn't want to spend budget on defense (Germany is an exception as it was excused defense after WWII). They wanted to spend on their social welfare models instead (and loves to castigate the USA for not having the like). But all the while Europe has been hiding behind the skirts of America's defense budget. So, we can object to America's self appointed role as 'the world's police' but there is a powerful argument which says that by Europe's own delinquency in defense spending we actually invited it.

Interestingly at its height the USA spent about 5% of its GDP on its defense budget. Whereas the UK at the height of its defense spending (different century and technology mind you) was spending nearer 10% of its GDP.

I say again, that's not supposed to be an excuse but an explanation in mitigation that distributes the responsibility for the current state of affairs more equitably.

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Strictly project and just for fun

Very true.

I have an issue only with many of the gov standpoint.s

BUt lets just qualify USA and WWII. They did bill the UK. And it took until 2006 to pay it off.......

Quote Frisonic:

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They (American government) have taken it upon themselves to become the 'world's police'. That's what people really object to. But how did that situation come about?

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They took over when the older Imperial powers (largely us - the UK) gave up the job.

Quote narcoman:

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BUt lets just qualify USA and WWII. They did bill the UK. And it took until 2006 to pay it off.......

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Not forgetting the Balfour Declaration - part of the bill for help in WW1, kicked into the long grass until America came into WW2 and then very firmly re-presented. We're all still paying for that one.