Quote feline1:

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I doubt it's really true to say that the majority of people prefer the console Hammond sound...

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I don't doubt it at all.... but it really all depends on the context, surely? If you want to play the thing solo, or as the focus of a classic jazz trio etc then a console organ (or an M3 at a push) is definitely the only way to go.

If it's to be used as the keyboard element of a bigger ensemble, then it's entirely down to personal taste and preferences. Plenty of bands used (and still use) full console organs very successfully.

However, a large number of bands also used spinet organs as we have discussed -- whether L100s, M100s, T100s, T200s or whatever. I suspect this was mainly for reasons of cost, weight, availability, and convenience -- at least initially -- followed by their unique tonal character producing a sound which has become quite a recognisable and key element to those bands' recorded music.

Personally, I much prefer the 'sound' of the console organs, but I can appreciate the qualities of the spinets.

It would obviously be quite easy, if still time consuming, for someone like Nord to produce the necessary sample sets and algorithms for the Electro and other keyboards... and I'm sure they would consider it if they could be persuaded of the musical importance and likely market (and the fact that no one else currently has anything suitable to offer!).

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Ideally, what needs to happen is that Gordon Reid reviews Clavia's new dual-manual-with-drawbars Nord C2D, and complains bitterly about the fact he cannot use it to precisely emulate hits by Matching Mole, Gentle Giant, Hatfield & the North etc.
There should be also be whole 'infobox' devoted to what row he was sitting in at the Bury St Edmunds Hippodrome in 1974 when Tony Banks played an unaccompanied 'Return of the Giant Hogweed' solo because the rest of the band had all become entangled in Peter Gabriel's slipperman costume and despite valient efforts by the roadcrew were unable to play a single note.

That would get their attention.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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I
There should be also be whole 'infobox' devoted to what row he was sitting in at the Bury St Edmunds Hippodrome in 1974 when Tony Banks played an unaccompanied 'Return of the Giant Hogweed' solo because the rest of the band had all become entangled in Peter Gabriel's slipperman costume and despite valient efforts by the roadcrew were unable to play a single note.

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I'm sure that was actually the Cardiff Sophia Gardens gig... The same one where the Mellotron caught fire. Again.

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary

I bet it wasn't as good as that one at the Badger's Gambit in Cleethorpes on the Charisma 3-for-1 tour where Van der Graaf Generator played 'killer' so enthusiastically that at least two members of Lindisfarne actually drowned in their own tears. But then, Hugh Banton had a Farfisa and a Hammond E100. With 3 fuzzboxes. Poor Tony Banks must've been terrified.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

The closest Spinet emulation comes from my Kurzweil K2600. Having them side by side gives me a chance to get it very close indeed.

For ages I've been trying to find a living space for an L100, but no luck so far...

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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For ages I've been trying to find a living space for an L100, but no luck so far...

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You need a bigger toadstool.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Quote Richie Royale:

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Quote The Elf:

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For ages I've been trying to find a living space for an L100, but no luck so far...

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You need a bigger toadstool.

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Tell me about it...

True story: I moved toadstool a number years ago, largely on the basis that I needed a bigger studio. After finding the perfect place and enduring months of mortgage seeking, contract signing and expenses paying I finally moved in. As I built the racks and stands in my designated room I couldn't understand why the walls were closing in so quickly...

Oh dear.

I'd mis-measured the room when I'd had the first viewing.

That's the most expensive 'Doh!' I've ever uttered!

So my current studio space is smaller than the one I moved from!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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For ages I've been trying to find a living space for an L100, but no luck so far...

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Why would you want an L100 when you have a T202? Okay, the L has some valves, but the T has a proper chorus vibrato scanner

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote The Elf:

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Oh dear.

I'd mis-measured the room when I'd had the first viewing.

That's the most expensive 'Doh!' I've ever uttered!

So my current studio space is smaller than the one I moved from!

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Oh noes!

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Tell me this: how does Dave Greenfield get this sound on his L100 live in 'Dagenham Dave'?

It ranges from preposterous sqwoooshy wibbly vibrato https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fvf_cJfjYU
to what practically sounds like a wah wah pedal at 2'10" https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL24730719A9CDC037&v=_Fvf_cJfjYU&am p;feature=player_detailpage#t=129s

Is he just somehow playing his L100 through a wah wah? Or is it some sneaky with switching motors on/off or summat?

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Quote The Elf:

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For ages I've been trying to find a living space for an L100, but no luck so far...

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Why would you want an L100 when you have a T202? Okay, the L has some valves, but the T has a proper chorus vibrato scanner

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I never use vibrato!

When I was younger I had a loathing of vibrato of any kind. I've mellowed over the years, but I really don't get on with that constant wobbling Hammond vibrato. I just find it unlistenably irritating! In my own music I never take the Leslie out of 'slow' either!

The L100 has a different percussion harmonic (the 'Supper's Ready' solo sound in my world!) to the T and that dirty/soggy 'chiff' to the note attack (a consequence of valves?). There's also a 'scrape/grittiness' to held chords that the T series don't seem to have without the help of my VKP-1 - and even then, not so appealing.

The same guy who created my line output said he could rewire one of the percussion presets to get the L100 harmonic, but I didn't fancy taking my Hammond so far from its original spec - though all but two of the percussion presets are horrible IMO)

This is all subtle stuff that only the truly obsessed would care about, but it's important to an obsessive old prog fan such as myself.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

I find that the Kawai K5000S gets very close to that Hammond T100 sound ala early Stranglers etc.( with A bit of outboard warmth of choice on the output).
I know the K5000 is better known for other synthesis applications than tonewheel organ emulation but after all tonewheel organs actually are mechanical additive synthesizers technically speaking.

I was pleasantly surprised by the many excellent & powerful classic Hammond , & other reed & tonewheel organ based presets that came with my K5000. There is an actual 'T100' preset too.
I suspect that Nord , Native Instruments etc use additive synthesis as the basis for their organ emulations as well as the other modeling synthesis algorhythms on the popular Yamaha, Roland & Korg 'modeling synths' of the past 14 years or so.

Edited by Captain Waves (23/04/12 09:58 PM)

Quote feline1:

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Tell me this: how does Dave Greenfield get this sound on his L100 live in 'Dagenham Dave'?

It ranges from preposterous sqwoooshy wibbly vibrato https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fvf_cJfjYU
to what practically sounds like a wah wah pedal at 2'10" https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL24730719A9CDC037&v=_Fvf_cJfjYU&am p;feature=player_detailpage#t=129s

Is he just somehow playing his L100 through a wah wah? Or is it some sneaky with switching motors on/off or summat?

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yeah but does nobody know how he does this?

Sounded like a wah pedal to me. Which one is a further line of enquiry!

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

Just sounds like a wah pedal to me - and the organ's stock vibrato for the wibbly effect.

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

This was the only reference I could find

http://groups.google.com/group/elp-channel/browse_thread/thread/84be8afa44 7e659d

Not exactly the best source of info though.

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http://soundcloud.com/richie-royale
http://www.mixcrate.com/richieroyale

I see - but if Dave Greenfield did put his Hammond through a wah-wah pedal, where did the leslie go?

Having said that, I seem to recall reading an interview in 'Strangled' magazine in the late 80s, where Dave said he didn't have a leslie back in the old days.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote feline1:

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I see - but if Dave Greenfield did put his Hammond through a wah-wah pedal, where did the leslie go?

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The mod I had done would have allowed this (prior to the amp giving up the ghost).

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Yes, lots of Hammonds were modified to include an 'effects loop' and in most caes it is quite easy to do.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

ah, nifty!

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Yes but if I may resurrect this thread ...

I had the brainwave of typing "spinet VST" into google (why didn't I think of that before...?!?)

And I found this http://www.prosolovst.com/index.htm

It's not a hardware keyboard with a spinet sound, but it is a VST.

They also make a VST ARP ProSoloist and an RMI Electapiano.

I gather their next VST will be a virtual Tony Banks, where you can adjust the length of his hair and the degree of grumpiness on his facial expression.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Been fooling around with these for a while. The RMI and Hammond are pretty good. The Pro-Soloist less so. But what's not to like for the price?

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote feline1:

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Yes but if I may resurrect this thread ...

I had the brainwave of typing "spinet VST" into google (why didn't I think of that before...?!?)

And I found this http://www.prosolovst.com/index.htm

It's not a hardware keyboard with a spinet sound, but it is a VST.

They also make a VST ARP ProSoloist and an RMI Electapiano.

I gather their next VST will be a virtual Tony Banks, where you can adjust the length of his hair and the degree of grumpiness on his facial expression.

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Pah! VST - Windoze only...

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary

been playing away on the L100 VST there for an hour - it certainly was able to do "instant stranglers" in a way no other (B3-based) plugin I've ever tried can do.

Just makes me want a real L100 now

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~

Quote The Elf:

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I fooled around with a VK-8 for a short while. I recall it being very much aimed at the thick B/C-type tones and nothing like the L/T models that I know and love. It actually didn't impress me much, but to each his own...

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I have a VK-8 and I bought that over the CX3 or the early model Hammond clonewheel because it was beefy. If I had been playing Jazz rather than R&B I would probably have gone with the CX3 (the current range of Hammond clonewheels weren't available then)

I had an L100 in my youth and hated it. But then I was trying to sound like Jon Lord or John Evan. At the time I didn't understand why I couldn't get it to do that.

Still you can get nice pads out of a B3 or clone, if not perhaps the sound you want. On the real beast you probably want to back off the gain on the Leslie amp - on clones there is a "drive" knob you can back off or cancel. And then you want to play open harmonies - often just thirds and sevenths.

woah, I see Gordon Reid mentions this issue in his review of the new Nord C2D! If that doesn't make it happen, nothing will!

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~