Hi!
First time poster, so not sure if this is in the right place but...!

My band have recently aquired a lighting rig after years of playing in the dark.. I'm sure it used to be about the sound, now for some reason they want to see us too! The problem is transport. I have a Honda Jazz 1.4, because I am poor and cannot afford to buy/run a van. We only manage the odd gig now, but hope to do more in the future.

I am considering a trailer, for the 2 x speakers and the bass bin.

How does everyone tackle the transport issue? Do you fork out for a van and hope for lots of gigs? Or do you struggle with a hatchback? Or maybe leave the keys player to get the bus to the gig, so the par cans can have his seat?!

Advice from experienced giggers much appreciated!

Adele

Hi Adele,

Welcome to the forum.

Assuming you are in the UK - don't forget that the road tax for the car will increase as you will be towing and the insurance will also change.

It is a good idea, though, but you will be limited to a maximum speed of 60MPH.

If you are not in the UK the legal arrangements will be different - some countries have the trailer taxed on it's own and with a registration number of its own, different from the towing vehicle.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Until you actually get lots of gigs, I would just hire a van or extra car when needed. If the gigs really start to come in regularly then you can think about buying a van or estate. But are there not enough cars already between the lot of you?

The thing to remember about buying a van is that there is not only the one-off purchase cost, but considerable running costs every year (inc. tax, insurance, and repairs, which are often expensive with vans). It really makes things easier if at least some of you have decently-paid day jobs!

A second-hand trailer is also a possibility, the smaller the better. You'll also have to allow for the cost of buying and fitting a towbar.

Can you fit roof-racks on your car? That's a good place for drummers.

Thanks for the replies.

I am based in the UK. Only 2 out of 3 of us drive, one is based in Leicester and myself in Stoke. All of the gear is stored at my house. I rented a van a few time, but drove one into a fence, cost me £500 for the deposit! It was only a (really deep) scratch! Eek!

We never get much money for gigs, about £150 at best for pubs, and van hire usually bites into that significantly.

I didn't realise tax and insurance would be affected. It seems everything you do someone has their hand in your pocket.. Gah!

I've just been looking at fitting costs for a towbar, about £250 i think. Cheaper if you do it yourself, but I am not sure I could. I found some cheap trailers on Ebay, they look like they might do the job. I'll have to look into the insurance situation mind.

Towing a trailer will not affect your Road Fund Licence (i.e. Tax) that only depends on the car and trailers do not need road tax or MOT testing etc. You should declare that you have fitted a tow bar to your insurers and that will probably result in a small increase in your insurance. BTW a small trailer is all your Jazz will pull safely (and legally, it's a minefield). If you think of buying something bigger check what you can legally tow with your car, there will be a weight limit related to your vehicle's MAM and a recommended max from the Honda. Bigger trailers (car plus trailer over 3.5 Tonnes) may also require an additional driving test, not an issue with your setup but a 4x4 with a horsebox/large PA trailer could be a problem. I won't go into detail as there's plenty of info on the net.

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Turn it down lads (but only a little bit)

Edited by Sam Spoons (27/08/12 06:48 PM)

>I rented a van a few time, but drove one into a fence, cost me £500 for the deposit!

If you drive a van into a fence than io doesn't matter who owns it, it's going to cost you!

>We never get much money for gigs, about £150 at best for pubs, and van hire usually bites into that significantly.

Of course it will. But so will the payments on any van you purchase. What you're discovering is how hard it is for a pub band to be self-sustaining. Most pub bands are subsidized by the band members with day jobs. The only way to make any money is to get onto the wedding/function circuit.

Wow very poor money, most pub bands here in Australia get between 350-500 pounds for a gig!

Quote Scramble:

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What you're discovering is how hard it is for a pub band to be self-sustaining. Most pub bands are subsidized by the band members with day jobs. The only way to make any money is to get onto the wedding/function circuit.

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Very true. I'm very much in the 'pay to play' category. I'm in a 5 piece covers band who do about a dozen gigs per year, half of them in pubs. We've been lucky enough to rent our own practice space for just £50 per month and we're happy for our gig money to cover the rent plus a beer each at practice. We individually cover the cost of fuel, strings, new gear etc. If you want to make money from pubs then get a job behind the bar.

Transport wise, one of our guys bought a second hand trailer quite cheaply but you have to take care - trailers are easily stolen.

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http://www.random-thought.co.uk/

Quote Music Wolf:

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trailers are easily stolen.

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Yup, a great way to lose all your gear in one go. And the trailer needs storing somewhere. We looked into this year's ago but we couldn't afford anything I'd be happy to put my (un-cased) amp in without it being bounced to bits.

I know this is no help but be very careful packing your car, a lighting stand in the back of the head at 60mph can be unpleasant.

My buying habits have been restricted over the past few years by what I definitely need vs what'll fit in the car (Ford Galaxy). Anything beyond that is hired as required. You'd be surprised how compact you can go.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

trouble is with a lot of small trailers is they bounce like hell which won't do your gear much good and unless you are proficient at reversing, may get you into a few tight spots.

Sadly pubs can't afford laying out decent cash for bands so in that market its more of a subsidised hobby for many. A friend of used to have a small pub and showed me her till receipts one night. Putting a £200 band on actually cost her as the difference in sales were not enough to cover the bands fee.

In my DJ job i used to just do pub gigs and karaoke's but soon found out i was effectively working for nothing by the time i factored in all my expenses, Replacing gear, Music purchases, Running a vehicle, PLI, PAT, N.I, Tax etc etc.

Its not easy getting into the function and wedding circuit now as the number of clubs has dropped and the wedding market is being squeezed a bit with cash being tight.

Anyway for lighting on a budget that will light you up in various sized venues i would have suggested some very small but very bright LED fixtures which would have taken up very little room. Not as cheap as par cans but when you consider the running costs and size they would have been perfect - you wouldn't need a trailer for them! the stands will be harder to transport but there are work arounds like fastening them to the tops of speakers etc.

Anyway good luck with it all

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I eat kebabs when i'm sober!

I moved from running an old Transit to a Lynton Loadlugger trailer when I used to run a PA and DJ. It certainly worked out cheaper to run although it also meant that I needed a slightly larger car to tow it. With the Lynton you can lock the brakes on as well as locking the tow hitch so any would-be thief would have to cut through 2 padlocks in order to make it mobile.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Sam Spoons:

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Towing a trailer will not affect your Road Fund Licence (i.e. Tax) that only depends on the car

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Oh, you are correct.

My information is well out of date on this - in the old days the road tax went up by about 50% if you towed a trailer or caravan.

Quote Sam Spoons:

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and trailers do not need road tax or MOT testing etc.

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But they must be roadworthy.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote Adele:

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I am based in the UK. Only 2 out of 3 of us drive, one is based in Leicester and myself in Stoke. All of the gear is stored at my house.

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So could the other driver store the lights? Yeah - blah blah ... not enough room ... blah blah. But there REALLY isn't enough room in your car, and any other solution will cost most of the gig money. Seems by far the simplest solution.

If one driver lives in Leicester and one in Stoke, then won't both of you have to drive to the gig anyway? So as EW says, why not let the other driver bring the lights?

I appreciate that there might be other issues here, eg. they're your lights and you want them at your house for other gigs. But if you can't afford a bigger car and don't want to hire then that seems an obvious solution (well, apart from the trailer, but the trailer seems like unnecessary hassle and expense in your case).

Did you buy a space-saving set of LED lights, or big old-fashioned but cheaper PAR cans?

The Jazz's towing capability is fairly limited so towing may not be the answer either. You really want an enclosed trailer so that is fairly heavy even before you put stuff in it.

With my Fit (what they call the Jazz here in the US) I run out of weight capacity before I run out of space. Carrying two people (or just me ) doesn't help there either.

Maybe you need to think about smaller/lighter speakers. For what you would have to put into a trailer and tow-bar you might be able to upgrade your rig and get it in the Jazz as well. Honda towbars are hideously expensive over here and even the after market ones are uncheap while I doubt you would find a decent reliable enclosed trailer for under 500 quid. (over here you can rent an enclosed trailer quite cheap with no mileage charges - but they might look askance at your proposed tow vehicle and you still need the tow bar)

Roadworthy, yes of course. I've been driving for 42 years and can't recall a time when towing a trailer afffected road tax unless it's a commercial vehicle (don't claim any knowledge there.

The Jazz has a max towing capacity of 450 kg (un-braked) If you're just planning to put passive bins/speakers in a small trailer you'll be fine (trailer weight say around 100kg, 1x15 bins 30kg ish 12+horn tops 30kg max say 6 cabs inc monitors = 280kg space will be more of an issue and the car with that on the back and two muso's plus the rest of the gear will feel pretty slow (but, as mentioned before, you are limited to 60 on motorways/dual carriageways and 50 on single carriagways anyway).

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Turn it down lads (but only a little bit)

Quote Sam Spoons:

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The Jazz has a max towing capacity of 450 kg (un-braked)

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Yes - looks like the Jazz and the US Fits are not quite the same in this regard. The User Manual for my Fit says "towing not recommended - may void your warranty'. While I was googling around I also discovered some brave souls have replaced the standard rear shocks with air shocks to increase load capacity.

Hi

Not sure I would go down the trailer route. As someone says, they do bounce around a bit (a lot), and not too secure either.

I can appreciate the position, as I also play the pub and social club circuit in a three piece like yours, and it's £160-£200 for us too. Not enough to support a living, we do around 3-4 a month, so it's only hobby money that gets reinvested as I have a day job.

I know you said about wanting to carry the speakers and bass bin in the trailer, but I'm assuming you could fit all the gear in before the lights came along? Have you considered a roofbox? The light (weight!) stuff could go up there which might just make the difference. They are not huge, I grant you, but might be ok. Safer in terms of bouncing around, and easier. Cheaper too. Ikea used to do roofbars for £35 or so, plus a decent size roofbox will come in well under the price of a towbar. I guess it depends on how much stuff you need to carry.

Transport is a huge issue though. I have a Citroen Picasso which is a dreadful car (my wife's), but taking the back seats out means I can fit the PA plus monitors plus my drum kit (just!).

Quote Music Wolf:

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Transport wise, one of our guys bought a second hand trailer quite cheaply but you have to take care - trailers are easily stolen.

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I bought a trailer, new. That way I could pick things like 2 tracks of E-Track, and choose the heights. I was able to order one that fits inside my garage. Now I'm able to leave it locked and loaded in the garage. Makes doing gigs a lot easier. It used to take 45 minutes to load my gear from the garage into my truck. Now I just hook on and leave.

Quote Stuart Dawson:

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Hi

Not sure I would go down the trailer route. As someone says, they do bounce around a bit (a lot), and not too secure either.

I can appreciate the position, as I also play the pub and social club circuit in a three piece like yours, and it's £160-£200 for us too. Not enough to support a living, we do around 3-4 a month, so it's only hobby money that gets reinvested as I have a day job.

I know you said about wanting to carry the speakers and bass bin in the trailer, but I'm assuming you could fit all the gear in before the lights came along? Have you considered a roofbox? The light (weight!) stuff could go up there which might just make the difference. They are not huge, I grant you, but might be ok. Safer in terms of bouncing around, and easier. Cheaper too. Ikea used to do roofbars for £35 or so, plus a decent size roofbox will come in well under the price of a towbar. I guess it depends on how much stuff you need to carry.

Transport is a huge issue though. I have a Citroen Picasso which is a dreadful car (my wife's), but taking the back seats out means I can fit the PA plus monitors plus my drum kit (just!).

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The roofbox idea is very good. Here are three issues to consider:

You will also have to factor in roof bars, not a deal breaker but needs thinking about.

Too much weight above can seriously affect your centre of gravity and therefore your handling in a small car. Again maybe not a huge issue in this case but beware of 'mission creep'. First it's the lights, then someone buys a little amp because there's room in the car, etc. Next thing you know you're changing lanes on the motorway unintentionally.

Beware of car parks. You're not under 6 foot any more. I've seen several people (both genders) try to get the car under a barrier having forgotten the roofbox is on.

I hate Citroen cars!

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

Something that gets overlooked time and again is making optimum use of the space that you have. It never ceases to amaze me just how many people are unable to load a car properly. If you take the same gear to every gig it should be possible to work out the most efficient way of loading the cars (including distributing the gear between cars) and then always load that way.

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http://www.random-thought.co.uk/

Quote Music Wolf:

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Something that gets overlooked time and again is making optimum use of the space that you have. It never ceases to amaze me just how many people are unable to load a car properly. If you take the same gear to every gig it should be possible to work out the most efficient way of loading the cars (including distributing the gear between cars) and then always load that way.

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True. Work on that vehicle pack. This was mine before I had the trailer, and what I fit in.
2 - Yorkville Unity15 tops
2 - LS800p's
4 - YX12 monitors
3 power amps in ATA cases
Computer in an ATA case
StudioLive 24.4.3 in an ATA Case & stand
100' 24x8 snake
4 milk crates full of various cables
Mics/drum mics
6 stands

All in a Dodge Dakota quadcab 4x4, and I even had the passenger seat free...
It all fit, but only one specific way.





Edited by robare99 (04/09/12 03:46 AM)

That is more interesting to me than I think is strictly healthy.

Now *there's* a thread - Readers' Loads.

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Ohm's Law states, "Your PA isn't as powerful as you think it is".

It's really a case of using the right tool for the job.
The OP sounds like they've outgrown their Honda Jazz.
Time to get something bigger, but not necessarily more expensive.

In my time gigging, I've always had a large car. I started off with a Land Rover Discovery.
I could get two keyboards, an amp, stands and cables in the boot and still have room for four groupies! Either that or I could get the guitarist and the bassist in with all their kit.
Disco's may be cheap to buy, but they are not cheap to keep on the road. Avoid at all costs.

The Volvo V70 or 850 estate is very spacious and cheap to buy. It's also cheap to insure. I know several musos who have gone for one of these.

My current vehicle of choice is the Ford Galaxy (also see the VW Sharan and the SEAT Alhambra).
I've had a full PA, desk and lighting system in the back of it (remove the rear seats and it's like a van). They are cheap to buy and depending on the model you get, cheap enough to run (don't get the V6, it's very thirsty!).

You can get versions of the above cars for about £1000 if you look around. My brother in law recently picked up 96 Galaxy for £450. It's 5 years older than my Gal, but it's in just as good condition.

It's about practicality. If your current vehcile isn't big enough, get a bigger one.

HTH.

Stu.

>I've had a full PA, desk and lighting system in the back of it (remove the rear seats and it's like a van).

Just to note that the latest series Galaxy's (Mk 3 from 2006) don't allow you to remove the seats, they fold into the floor. If you want removable seats get the Mk. 1 or Mk. 2 (cheaper anyway 'cos older).

Or get an estate.

Have a look at flat led lights like these ... so much better than fake par-types.



You could squeeze some of those in I think ... And they work really well.
Many people use a foot-pedal to control the lights, rather than a mixer. Works well if you set up some as permanent washes, and the others as fun colour-changes. Of course a proper small mixer is better in the long run.

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PA stuff on FB

James, that Lynton Loadlugger. Thinking of getting the same myself - right price, spec, etc.. What was your experience with needing a bigger car to tow it, though? I've now got a Renault Laguna estate (1.9 diesel) which I'd think should be OK, but wondered what size of car you found you were needing?

I started with an Astra 1.6 estate which was the bare minimum according to Lynton and a bit sluggish if the trailer was loaded up at all. It was followed by a big old Opel Senator 2.5 which worked fine but was a fair bit more expensive to run. I ended up with a Cavalier 1.8 which was a better compromise between power and cost.

With a trailer you need to be aware of weight distribution - keep things even (or slightly forward) and don't try to lift the back of the car up by putting too much weight at the back of the trailer. Also, you have to be better at reading the road as you don't want to do any quick braking or acceleration.

I was very happy with mine and only sold it because my studio work took over from live and DJ work.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Thanks James. Yeah, all good things to remember there. And sounds like my Laguna will probably do the job, then.

I'm reasonably good at reading the road, after a few years driving a Peugeot 309 with brakes that could most charitably be described as "not very abrupt". Thank god I'm shut of that particular pile of cack. Although having given it to the garage when it needed a new clutch (which would have exceeded the value of the car when you included mechanic time!), I did later find it parked in the local Tescos. Judging by the love beads strung from the rearview mirror, its new owners probably weren't pushing the speed limit though. The hash limit, perhaps...

My Focus estate with the back seats down takes 2 bass bins, 2 top cabs, sound desk, snake and leads box as well as mics, stands and a thermos.

My little Focus cost me £1500 2 years ago and I have put heaps of miles on it. I have broken a spring, though that could be the rubbish roads round here.

We deliberately brought smaller monitor speakers to fit them in cars.

Used to split the driving between me and the bass player whose bass and cab we could also squeeze in if I didn't bring the thermos!

There was only room for two in the front and I often wondered that we were never stopped by the police for overloading.

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Dazed and confused

i think everything i would have said has been covered, except to reiterate that parking at pub venues can be challenging at the best of times, both in terms of actually finding a spot and security - a trailor is difficult to secure and makes it necessary to find a much bigger parking space. So I'd defo avoid going down the trailor route.

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In my experience a trailer makes things easier parking wise as you can unhitch it and manhandle it into a much tighter space than you could fit the equivalent sized van into. My trailer was fairly easy to secure with a dummy tow hitch and a padlock. The brakes could also be locked on to make it impossible to move.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Everything fit in my truck, except the lights and and a couple extra monitors.

For me the biggest issues were:

1: I always needed help "just for a minute" to lift the subs onto my truck, since they are aroun 130lbs each and bulky. I once waited over an hour, trying to find some help "just for a minute"

2: to took 45 minutes to load up before a gig, and to unload after.

The trailer is SUCH a time saver. Plus it adds to the professionalism, rolling up with a nicely packed trailer. I'm no longer "another guy with a truckload of gear"

I went for a 5x12, low enough to fit in my garage, so I can leave it loaded between gigs.




Everything has its place and is firmly strapped in.




I don't regret the purchase for a minute, it makes life
A LOT easier!

Edited by robare99 (05/09/12 06:17 PM)

Your trailor looks about the same size as a typical UK Garage

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Hell, the truck itself is bigger than most UK garages!

Have to remember about those metal strips along the walls though. I was just going to ply-line mine and fit some tie-down points, but those make a lot more sense.

Hey...I would go enclosed trailer! lockable , clampable and as far as "bouncin' about"...buy boxes that pack wall to wall, then it won't budge and the boxes protect gear. Its all money though!!!! The cheap version is just to buy a couple of uplights and wear dayglo/reflective/luminous clothing/ make up. Dave

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My head hurts!

Quote grab:

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Have to remember about those metal strips along the walls though. I was just going to ply-line mine and fit some tie-down points, but those make a lot more sense.

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I bought mine already ply lined and with tie rails fitted - it added about 300 quid to the price at the time but the Lynton factory did a much better job than I could.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote grab:

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Hell, the truck itself is bigger than most UK garages!

Have to remember about those metal strips along the walls though. I was just going to ply-line mine and fit some tie-down points, but those make a lot more sense.

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Lol no kidding hey, and my truck is a smaller one. The typical 1/2 ton is a lot bigger.

That stuff is called E-Track on this side of the pond, I had it installed when I ordered the trailer. Like I said I was able to pick the heights, so it worked out. The blue straps were $15 each, for 16' length with the E-Track ends to clip into the E-Track. I also bought some little rings and other attachments, $5 each. So they aren't real expensive. I pick up a couple here n there. I'm starting to cut them down to length and label them for the different pieces of gear.

FOH, mixer etc. that way if they were all over the floor, I know which is which.

Quote turbodave:

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Hey...I would go enclosed trailer! lockable , clampable and as far as "bouncin' about"...buy boxes that pack wall to wall, then it won't budge and the boxes protect gear. Its all money though!!!! The cheap version is just to buy a couple of uplights and wear dayglo/reflective/luminous clothing/ make up. Dave

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True, I'm able to strap everything in nice and solid for the ride. Pretty much everything is in an ATA style roadcase. I have close to $2,000 (CAD) in cases alone. But buy once, cry once and now I'm set up. I didn't buy them all at once, but here and there.

Quote James Perrett:

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I bought mine already ply lined and with tie rails fitted - it added about 300 quid to the price at the time but the Lynton factory did a much better job than I could.

James.

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Exactly. They did a nicer job and they are welded to the frame vs me installing them after. The trailer was more expensive new, but it's exactly what I need, and I've never regretted it. I leave it in the garage and locked up.







Edited by robare99 (08/09/12 04:29 PM)

Quote Music Wolf:

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Something that gets overlooked time and again is making optimum use of the space that you have. It never ceases to amaze me just how many people are unable to load a car properly. If you take the same gear to every gig it should be possible to work out the most efficient way of loading the cars (including distributing the gear between cars) and then always load that way.

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Achieving optimum load at 2 or 3 in the morning is quite a feat - especially if its raining so you have to carry the stuff out of the venue in the right order. Even more so if, mirabile dictu, the band is helping.

+1. It's true that it is amazing what you can fit in when you have the time to properly do it, but it's always a different story at 2am after a gig. If you can do it, great, but I prefer being able to just chuck everything in and get off to bed and sort the mess out later.