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Mattyy



Joined: 11/08/10
Posts: 101
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Stereo Reverb Send Post Pan
      #1031427 - 31/01/13 05:57 PM
Sorry if this has been answered before. Beginner/intermediate mixing guy here. Trying like hell to find out if sending a track to a stereo reverb post pan is a viable option.

In a live room, a source @ 2:00, 10' back should create a reverb starting from that spot in the stereo/depth field no?

I know the benefits of pre fader reverb. I also know the benefits of pre pan reverb. But on true stereo sources, won't these signals distort stereo imaging?

Maybe I don't understand the workings of most reverb plugins/units?

Can someone please clarify why a simple search of post pan reverb doesn't turn up hundreds of instances of people using the technique. Why does it seem to be a no no? Or am I just bad at using Google? LOL!!

Thanks in advance

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Just a fan of music...


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 21830
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Stereo Reverb Send Post Pan new [Re: Mattyy]
      #1031433 - 31/01/13 06:44 PM
Quote Mattyy:

Trying like hell to find out if sending a track to a stereo reverb post pan is a viable option.




Yes, it's viable, put it requires a reverb with a genuine stereo input. There are some, but most actually sum left and right and generate the stereo reverb field from a mono source.

Quote:

In a live room, a source @ 2:00, 10' back should create a reverb starting from that spot in the stereo/depth field no?




No. The direct sound comes from that point, but the reverb itself comes from the reflections off the room surfaces -- so the reverb inherently comes mostly from the outside edges of the sound field. Clearly, the position of the source relative to the room boundaries will affect the composition of the early reflections, and that helps to determine the character of the room ambience, but the effect is usually very subtle and not generally worth bothering about.

Some reverbs that employ ray tracing algorithms to calculate the reverb are able to alter the early reflections depending on source panning -- some of the TC Electronic models, for example. But they tend to be the exception rather than the rule.

Quote:

But on true stereo sources, won't these signals distort stereo imaging?




Not to any significant effect in the vast majority of cases.

H

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Mattyy



Joined: 11/08/10
Posts: 101
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Re: Stereo Reverb Send Post Pan new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1031692 - 02/02/13 02:06 AM
Thanks alot Hugh for the quick reply. I've been trying to figure this one for a while now.

Quote:

it requires a reverb with a genuine stereo input.




So would a convolution reverb like SIR or Space Designer with their "true stereo" impulses count?

Would setting up two traditional reverbs - same settings - panned l+r - both receiving the same amount of post pan signal achieve a similar result?

Quote:

the reverb itself comes from the reflections off the room surfaces




So, I'm guessing that the difference in distance from the left or right wall is probably negligible, especially since the source sound's decay in many cases will probably drown out the earliest reflections any way. Still. It would be interesting to see if there was a difference on a string quartet in a church playing pizzicato

Quote:

Not to any significant effect in the vast majority of cases.




I think that I might mock something up to demonstrate this. Sample 1: Panned source - typical reverb. Sample 2: Panned source - true stereo reverb. Sample 3: Panned source - two counter panned traditional reverbs set to the same setting. I will be sure to set them all up post pan but I might repeat Sample 1 post fader/pre pan just to see if there's any kind of noticeable difference.

BRB...

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Just a fan of music...


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 21830
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Stereo Reverb Send Post Pan new [Re: Mattyy]
      #1031726 - 02/02/13 11:15 AM
Quote Mattyy:

So would a convolution reverb like SIR or Space Designer with their "true stereo" impulses count?




You would need to be able to use convolution reverbs captured with the noise generator in the same position as your intended pan position... and unless you make the convolution fiels yourself, that ain't gonna happen.

The ray tracing things from TC allow you to dial in where the source is supposed to be in the virtual room to ensure as much acuray as possible... but as I said, it really isn't necessary for 99.9% of applications.

Quote:

Would setting up two traditional reverbs - same settings - panned l+r - both receiving the same amount of post pan signal achieve a similar result?




No. These are digital algorithms that always do the same thing, so both reverbs will produce identical outputs.

Quote:

So, I'm guessing that the difference in distance from the left or right wall is probably negligible, especially since the source sound's decay in many cases will probably drown out the earliest reflections any way.




Early reflections are audible and important in helping us to recognise the virtual room's characteristics, but the whole reverb is so complex that the source position is generally negligible for most purposes.

Quote:

I think that I might mock something up to demonstrate this. Sample 1: Panned source - typical reverb. Sample 2: Panned source - true stereo reverb. Sample 3: Panned source - two counter panned traditional reverbs set to the same setting.




Go for it... but I suspect the different reverb algorithms will dominate the different sound characteristics -- not the source panning.

Hugh

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Mattyy



Joined: 11/08/10
Posts: 101
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Re: Stereo Reverb Send Post Pan new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1031740 - 02/02/13 02:51 PM
Well... that was an interesting little experiment that did indeed amount to little. BUT. I did learn a bit more about signal routing and the inner workings of reverb plugins. Well worth the price of admission. LOL!!

(source panned to the right)

Traditional algorithmic reverb - signal sent pre pan: reverb effect comes out of both speakers.
Traditional algorithmic reverb - signal sent post pan: reverb effect comes out of both speakers.
Identical instances of above reverb panned hard l+r - signal sent post pan:: reverb comes out of both speakers.

Stereo convolution reverb - signal sent pre pan: reverb panned with source.
Stereo convolution reverb - signal sent post pan: reverb panned with source.

Algorithmic reverb = Trueverb. Convolution reverb = Space Designer.

There weren't even any interesting side effects from playing around with the routing, etc... so it is negligible posting any audio samples.
I have discovered, however, why synthetic reverbs traditionally leave me less than satisfied and will go the extra mile when miking up a room for ambiance in the future.
Thanks Hugh for the education mate. This post alone was worth the price of my subscription this year

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Just a fan of music...


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 21830
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: Stereo Reverb Send Post Pan new [Re: Mattyy]
      #1031746 - 02/02/13 03:40 PM


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