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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner
      #1031907 - 03/02/13 06:37 PM
Just thought to share my security settings (XP, Vista, 7) with you:
  1. Create an admin account + create an account with standard rights. Use this standard account for your day to day tasks. Make sure after booting the 'choose your account screen' will show up. Give your admin account a high password length.
  2. Keep UAC on.
  3. in the rare case you have to log in from the choose-account-screen as an admin: plug out your network cable from the router (probably easier to reach than the back of your computer). Do this before loggin in and plug it back in after loggin out.



Last point sounds hilarious but it works perfectly. It is important to keep the next points in mind:
  1. windows firewall should be on
  2. make sure your OS is patched
  3. be very very careful installing software from untrusted parties


This is how I always deal with my computer and never gave me any virus, malware or whatever, without the need for a bloated unnecessary virus scanner on my computer.

Edited by WaveOnWave (03/02/13 06:49 PM)


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5920
Re: very secure and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1031909 - 03/02/13 06:42 PM
Still install Microsoft Security Essentials though. It won't jump up and bite you. Honest!


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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
Re: very secure and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1031911 - 03/02/13 06:44 PM
Well, my point is I can do without.

I always have a red shield in my tray but I am still very safe.

Edited by WaveOnWave (03/02/13 06:45 PM)


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
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Re: very secure and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1031913 - 03/02/13 06:50 PM
It's an unnecessary point. There's no virtue in doing without if one does no harm.

The other destructive bit of advice is to turn off Ststem Restore. Don't. It will save your life one day.


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The Elf
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1031916 - 03/02/13 07:00 PM
Just make sure you do a regular incremental image backup. That's the best anti-virus protection of all.

Install Microsoft Security Essentials anyway - no bloat and no reason not to.

--------------------
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Folderol



Joined: 15/11/08
Posts: 3823
Loc: Rochester, UK
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1031924 - 03/02/13 08:38 PM
If I was going there, I wouldn't start from here!

First line of defense is your router. Mine is set to block all incoming ports. Access attempts are logged but no response is given, so any nasties have no way of knowing there is anything connected at all.

Next I split out 'domestic' stuff from important stuff.

Important is the DAW, which is on its own machine. It doesn't even have a browser configured let alone in use. It also is never connected to any network unless I am downloading known software from a known source using a dedicated downloader. Any other transfers are via known clean memory sticks - my machine also does not auto-run any external media.

My domestic machine is a small cheap general purpose one with standard, readily replaceable software on it. The stuff that matters at all (data) is on its own partition and regularly backed up - I keep old backup copies. If the machine were to get hosed, I'd simply wipe and re-install. This is arguable less time consuming that any other option, and certainly more reliable. At worst, I might lose a couple of days of e-mail (although my link to my ISP is IMAP so even there I can re-fetch them with a bit of fiddling about).

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robin746



Joined: 07/03/06
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1031960 - 04/02/13 01:26 AM
Or just run Panda Cloud (low overhead) and don't do anything outright stupid on your computer. In performance turn off the internet. Had one virus in ten years. Survived the experience.

--------------------
"The Drones" now available on BandCamp through Stolen Mirror.


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OneWorld



Joined: 07/04/09
Posts: 1935
Re: very secure and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #1031978 - 04/02/13 10:02 AM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

It's an unnecessary point. There's no virtue in doing without if one does no harm.

The other destructive bit of advice is to turn off Ststem Restore. Don't. It will save your life one day.




+1

I survived about 3 years with no AV software at all - after having had the travails of Norton imposed upon me, never again!

But now there is MS Security Essentials, works fine, tiny footprint, unobtrusive, one of those rare examples of Microsoft embracing that sage computing advice - KISS

And possibly the most important tool - make an image of a mean and clean installation, with incremental backups and the nasties can throw whatever they want at you.

I have been told System Restore can itself become infected by particularly invasive viruses?


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1031980 - 04/02/13 10:07 AM
Quote WaveOnWave:

This is how I always deal with my computer and never gave me any virus, malware or whatever, without the need for a bloated unnecessary virus scanner on my computer.




Of course, an alternative approach is to use a non-bloated virus scanner and forget all that faffing about with internet cable nonsense!

I use Eset Nod -- a very non-bloated and efficient virus scanner. My machine is connected to the big bad outside world 24/7, and I have virtually no problems with virus and malware. In fact the only time I have in the last five years or so came from someone else's memory stick, and it was detected and dealt with instantly!

Keep the OS up to date, use good virus protection and keep it updated, have a good internet router with proper firewall configurations, and avoid surfing dodgy websites or downloading dodgy files. And finally, keep all your critical data backed up in at least three independent places, and maintain images of the OS drive. That way if the evil monster does find a way in, you can flatten the system, restore the image, and be up and running as if nothing had happened inside an hour or two.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1031994 - 04/02/13 11:25 AM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:



...

Of course, an alternative approach is to use a non-bloated virus scanner and forget all that faffing about with internet cable nonsense!

I use Eset Nod -- a very non-bloated and efficient virus scanner. My machine is connected to the big bad outside world 24/7, and I have virtually no problems with virus and malware. In fact the only time I have in the last five years or so came from someone else's memory stick, and it was detected and dealt with instantly!

Keep the OS up to date, use good virus protection and keep it updated, have a good internet router with proper firewall configurations, and avoid surfing dodgy websites or downloading dodgy files. And finally, keep all your critical data backed up in at least three independent places, and maintain images of the OS drive. That way if the evil monster does find a way in, you can flatten the system, restore the image, and be up and running as if nothing had happened inside an hour or two.

hugh



and what account rights do you use when running your computer for browsing/music production? I find it hilarious people put a lot of effort and money in protection while still logging in with their admin account. Why using 3rd party software when there is no need for it.

Edited by WaveOnWave (04/02/13 11:31 AM)


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The Elf
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1031995 - 04/02/13 11:28 AM
Quote WaveOnWave:

I find it hilarious people put a lot of effort and money in protection while still logging in with their admin account.



What effort and money?

MSE is free and looks after itself - and it takes all of ten seconds to set off an image backup (which everyone should be doing anyway)!

It seems you're the one making the most effort!

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.


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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: robin746]
      #1031997 - 04/02/13 11:31 AM
Quote robin746:

Or just run Panda Cloud (low overhead) and don't do anything outright stupid on your computer. In performance turn off the internet. Had one virus in ten years. Survived the experience.




The funny thing is, when logging in as a standard account I can do all the stupid things on my computer I want, it won't harm my computer. I don't have to think about it. The only thing I have to think about it is when a request for admin credentials shows up, then I know there is something going on.

While on the subject I am still surprised .msi files haven't become the standard. Current situation: when installing (another thing to think about, you can do without, if the distributor wants) a program you have to run an .exe file and your computer is a walk-in for the exe file. With .msi files the OS installs the software giving you an extra security layer without the need for 3rd party software.


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tex
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032040 - 04/02/13 02:01 PM
Viruses are like Dracula. You have to open the door and invite them in.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.


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tex
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032242 - 05/02/13 03:47 PM
Oh, and post 5 in virus aware week? The only people who want us aware of viruses are certain anti virus companies who want moneeee.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.


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Pete Kaine
Scan Computers


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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: tex]
      #1032354 - 06/02/13 10:04 AM
The last time I picked up a virus, it was via a very well regarded news site who's server had been compromised and forced to deliver a payload when you opened an article.

To put it bluntly; [ ****** ] happens and it normally happens outside of your control. Just because your careful it doesn't mean the isn't an Apache or jquery exploit out there with your name on it.

Sure if your not connected to a network or if you are and nobody else uses it then great, your low risk; unless you absolutly never insert any media (burnt cd's,usb drives) into your computer then in which case you would be completely safe. If your connected to a network and other people are on it, then are you 100% sure they are not going to do something foolish?

When the AV solution isn't going to cost you anything, its simply a case of better safe than...

--------------------
ScanProAudio & 3XS Audio Systems
ScanProAudio Blog


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Magic Matt



Joined: 17/09/10
Posts: 141
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032392 - 06/02/13 01:59 PM
The worst viruses are the ones that install in such a way as to go completely undetected. They sit in the background logging data you enter, and send it to persons unknown. They are used to harvest details such as credit card numbers, logins, anything that can be used for fraud and identity theft basically.

Just because your computer is running fine, does not mean there's nothing wrong. Sure it's possible you may never encounter such an issue, but why risk it? I fix computers for a living, and last month I had to spend two weeks helping somebody sort out a load of issues they had with their credit card details being used fraudulently. They had a rootkit installed on the computer that was connecting to a server in Russia and basically sending almost everything she typed, so that must have been how the criminals got her details.

For all those smug Mac users that say only PCs get viruses... sorry, I've had to remove viruses off of a Mac too! Thankfully it's far more rare, but Mac users are often guilty of forwarding virus ridden messages, and with appropriate anti-virus installed, the infected messages would be filtered out - even when not directly affected, they are often carriers.

In light of this, I maintain as I always have done, that using a computer online without appropriate antivirus and firewall protection, is totally irresponsible.


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tex
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Magic Matt]
      #1032471 - 06/02/13 10:16 PM
Quote:

The worst viruses are the ones that install in such a way as to go completely undetected



....and log all your details?
I've seen that statement many hundreds of times. Not once have I seen an explanation of how that is done from anyone that posts that statement. Always the scary bit and never the reality.
Keyloggers are never casually implemented. They are either clandestinely installed on physical media or they require the (tricked) cooperation of the recipient.
I once built a friend a computer, clean install of Windows with the only visits to the internet being to download the latest Windows updates. An "expert" friend of his came along and "found" hundreds of viruses. Go figure.
Windows security essentials plus the usual rule of never doing so much with your computer that you are likely to forget doing it. That plus the fact that companies and their employees are, incredibly, much more at risk than individuals form viruses and hackers just because they are stupidly lax with security because most of them can't remember anything more than the simplest security routines as a body. So to reassure everyone, you are, with the most basic of security, vastly safer than MI5.

Quote:

In light of this, I maintain as I always have done, that using a computer online without appropriate antivirus and firewall protection, is totally irresponsible.




Yeth, and alwayth wear full body armour too. You've been told.

--------------------
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feline1
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: The Elf]
      #1032535 - 07/02/13 10:12 AM
Quote The Elf:

Quote WaveOnWave:

I find it hilarious people put a lot of effort and money in protection while still logging in with their admin account.



What effort and money?

MSE is free and looks after itself - and it takes all of ten seconds to set off an image backup (which everyone should be doing anyway)!

It seems you're the one making the most effort!





Quoted for truth!!

--------------------
~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~


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Magic Matt



Joined: 17/09/10
Posts: 141
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: tex]
      #1032564 - 07/02/13 01:31 PM
Quote tex:

Quote:

The worst viruses are the ones that install in such a way as to go completely undetected



....and log all your details?
I've seen that statement many hundreds of times. Not once have I seen an explanation of how that is done from anyone that posts that statement. Always the scary bit and never the reality.
Keyloggers are never casually implemented. They are either clandestinely installed on physical media or they require the (tricked) cooperation of the recipient.





That's just absolute twaddle. Allow me to explain why your implication that I'm lying (for reasons I can't comprehend) is completely misplaced.

Without anti-virus protection, security vulnerabilities in browsers and email clients are the most common way of encountering an implimentation of a "dropper" - that is a script that once installed will then try to download the main infection.

One recent high profile vulnerability was found in Java, and was published in most of the respected computer press.
http://www.informationweek.co.uk/security/attacks/java-zero-day-attack-cou ld-hit-enterpris/240006341

The important part about understanding a dropper, is that its intent at that stage is not to do anything more than attempt to gain access to the computer so that arbitrary commands can be carried out. It will usually connect to a server and periodically check that server for instructions. Once a good number of machines are connecting to the server, the operator will then issue commands for them to download and run arbitrary code. The code is installed and executed, and runs just as any other background process does on your computer. It can do anything that any normal piece of software would be capable of doing.

You are now in the arena of guessing what the motives of person who has gained some access and control of your computer are. Some of the more common ones are:
- To pool resources and use as many machines as possible to create a DoS attack. That's where you flood a server with more requests than it can handle, and it stops being able to respond - Denial of Service.
- To harvest information, - keyloggers are smart. They don't send every keystroke, they look for patterns. Strings of 16 numbers is usually a credit card number, in which case the data before was probably a name and the data after probably the dates and CVV code.
- To prevent access to your computer - this one is becoming more common. One such infiltration has been very effective in obtaining money by deception, and is hard to track. You'd be amazed how many people fall for it. http://deletemalware.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/remove-police-central-e-crime- unit.html
- It may also simply be feeding all your documents to the server at low speed.

Without anti-virus, you may never know it's there. Yes, it's frightening. Unfortunately it's also very real, and people do get caught. Part of my job, is clearing up that mess.

Quote tex:


I once built a friend a computer, clean install of Windows with the only visits to the internet being to download the latest Windows updates. An "expert" friend of his came along and "found" hundreds of viruses. Go figure.





If you were capable of doing the checks yourself, you should have. You would then have been in a position to challenge the person that claimed to have found hundreds of viruses.

However, it's also common for people that claim to know what they are doing to be complete idiots, and I've encountered plenty of people that thought cookies were viruses.

Quote tex:


Windows security essentials plus the usual rule of never doing so much with your computer that you are likely to forget doing it. That plus the fact that companies and their employees are, incredibly, much more at risk than individuals form viruses and hackers just because they are stupidly lax with security because most of them can't remember anything more than the simplest security routines as a body. So to reassure everyone, you are, with the most basic of security, vastly safer than MI5.





What twaddle is this now? Point one, you're saying you don't need antivirus etc. but then saying use Windows Security Essentials which includes the anti-virus you don't need.... do you want to contradict yourself any more??

Employees are stupidly lax with security... no. Clearly you're completely unaware that most companies will have rules saying employees should not alter settings on the computers, and installing software without the boss clearing it first would most certainly get you on a disciplinary. Some business are lax, but that's because they usually believe the sort of nonsense you're saying about security not being needed.

If a home user is foolish not to have security, a business is an accident waiting to happen. If somebody gets the payroll information, banking information (usually held in Sage Accounts Company.001 folder) from a business, that's a pretty big jackpot.


Quote tex:


Quote:

In light of this, I maintain as I always have done, that using a computer online without appropriate antivirus and firewall protection, is totally irresponsible.




Yeth, and alwayth wear full body armour too. You've been told.




Stop being an idiot please. You have been told.


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Sabbs



Joined: 14/10/04
Posts: 62
Loc: Dubai UAE
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032583 - 07/02/13 02:57 PM
Hi all

The original recommendations of using a standard account day to day in the first post is something I've been drumming into professional IT Admins for years and should be standard fare in any IT Pro Shop.

Yet I still find IT Admins logging on to their desktops with privileged accounts and on to privileged systems directly. Arghhh!

For my own music laptop - I operate a use at my own risk policy. I use an Admin account and Security Essentials for AV.

My use at my own risk policy is if I need wipe and load then this should not involve data loss. Therefore I'm careful what sites I connect to (manufacturers only) if I need something else I do it on another machine. I also have an MDT (Microsoft Deployment Toolkit) server (VM) that contains my image with my base OS and apps. To wipe and load - I just PXE boot the laptop and back it all comes (drivers as needed). Of course there's tuning and tweaking afterwards but it saves me time.

Also if it's not backed up - I obviously don't care enough about it....

As long as you accept your risk of data loss then don't be surprised/upset when it happens - because it will.

--------------------
Sabbs


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 3605
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Sabbs]
      #1032586 - 07/02/13 03:09 PM
Quote Sabbs:

Hi all

The original recommendations of using a standard account day to day in the first post is something I've been drumming into professional IT Admins for years and should be standard fare in any IT Pro Shop.

Yet I still find IT Admins logging on to their desktops with privileged accounts and on to privileged systems directly. Arghhh!

For my own music laptop - I operate a use at my own risk policy. I use an Admin account and Security Essentials for AV.

My use at my own risk policy is if I need wipe and load then this should not involve data loss. Therefore I'm careful what sites I connect to (manufacturers only) if I need something else I do it on another machine. I also have an MDT (Microsoft Deployment Toolkit) server (VM) that contains my image with my base OS and apps. To wipe and load - I just PXE boot the laptop and back it all comes (drivers as needed). Of course there's tuning and tweaking afterwards but it saves me time.

Also if it's not backed up - I obviously don't care enough about it....

As long as you accept your risk of data loss then don't be surprised/upset when it happens - because it will.




You say 'it will', but that's incorrect. It 'might'. And probably won't for the foreseeable future.


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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
Posts: 5920
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: johnny h]
      #1032588 - 07/02/13 03:11 PM
Quote johnny h:

Quote Sabbs:

As long as you accept your risk of data loss then don't be surprised/upset when it happens - because it will.




You say 'it will', but that's incorrect. It 'might'. And probably won't for the foreseeable future.




No. In the forseeable future there WILL be data loss. Maybe not in the immediate future. But don't bank on it.


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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Sabbs]
      #1032590 - 07/02/13 03:15 PM
Quote Sabbs:

Hi all

The original recommendations of using a standard account day to day in the first post is something I've been drumming into professional IT Admins for years and should be standard fare in any IT Pro Shop.





yeah true, the most important recommendation of this topic is NOT to stop using virus-scanners, although i made the decision to stop using them (in fact never ever used them in my life). The recomendation is indeed to start using your computer with a standard account. Something which seems to be missed by almost everybody in this topic and the rest of the world. Also met several IT professionals who dis recommend it while it is THE no 1 protection against every IT danger we have.


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The Elf
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032594 - 07/02/13 03:23 PM
Quote WaveOnWave:

it is THE no 1 protection against every IT danger we have.



I'm sorry - this is blind faith, and misguided.

I was an IT professional for 30 years before my full-time career in audio. The No. 1 protection is backup, backup, backup.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.


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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: The Elf]
      #1032598 - 07/02/13 03:32 PM
Quote The Elf:

Quote WaveOnWave:

it is THE no 1 protection against every IT danger we have.



I'm sorry - this is blind faith, and misguided.

I was an IT professional for 30 years before my full-time career in audio. The No. 1 protection is backup, backup, backup.




Werther it is 1 or 2 (or 3) is not really important of course, fact is that everybody who is serious about working on the computer and security should run under standard account.


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The Elf
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032603 - 07/02/13 03:39 PM
Quote WaveOnWave:

Quote The Elf:

Quote WaveOnWave:

it is THE no 1 protection against every IT danger we have.



I'm sorry - this is blind faith, and misguided.

I was an IT professional for 30 years before my full-time career in audio. The No. 1 protection is backup, backup, backup.




Werther it is 1 or 2 (or 3) is not really important of course, fact is that everybody who is serious about working on the computer and security should run under standard account.



Maybe, but AS WELL AS, not INSTEAD OF, other protection! AV and backups are more important and no hassle to implement.

If you truly believe that a standard account on its own is a guarantee of protection you are very wrong.

--------------------
An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Exalted Wombat]
      #1032606 - 07/02/13 03:47 PM
Quote Exalted Wombat:

Quote johnny h:

Quote Sabbs:

As long as you accept your risk of data loss then don't be surprised/upset when it happens - because it will.




You say 'it will', but that's incorrect. It 'might'. And probably won't for the foreseeable future.




No. In the forseeable future there WILL be data loss. Maybe not in the immediate future. But don't bank on it.




Computers have a shelf life. In my experience only one hard drive has ever gone wrong, and that was the infamous ibm deskstar 'deathstar' and it made horrible noises for many months before finally refusing to access certain files. Viruses have happened but nothing that has caused any data loss nor loss of valuable information (as far as I know). But that was with the PC. Now the PC has been relieved of all of its internet duties. The mac has time machine, which is, as you would expect from Apple, by far the best backup utility ever invented for mainstream use.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Joined: 25/07/03
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: The Elf]
      #1032607 - 07/02/13 03:50 PM
Quote The Elf:

If you truly believe that a standard account on its own is a guarantee of protection you are very wrong.




+1 billion to that one!

H

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Sabbs



Joined: 14/10/04
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Loc: Dubai UAE
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1032614 - 07/02/13 04:27 PM
Using a standard account in IT is good practice and can help against the propagation of malware/virus/Bad boy hacker. This is one of many good practices including AV software, backups etc etc.

If things really go wrong and recovery is needed...backups (verified and tested ideally) save your hide.

Those of us that have spinning disks = mechanical moving parts = potential failure. And as I understand it SSDs have a finite write capability. Therefore to guard against this happening - backups - I travel with my laptops all the time. If one laptop gets dropped or whatever could equal hard drive death. data paranoia is healthy - I have both on premise and off premise backups.

Everybody has their own way of doing it. As long as you understand your risk and have some kind of recovery plan then whatever works for you works for you.

Everybody suffers data loss at some point. My first wake up call was accidently saving sequences on a floppy disk on my Korg 01/W FD over the top of a lot sequences that I didn't have back up of...did backups after that and on every subsequent device/keyboard that saved data.

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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1032616 - 07/02/13 04:34 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote The Elf:

If you truly believe that a standard account on its own is a guarantee of protection you are very wrong.




+1 billion to that one!

H




and what rights do you run at? admin or standard?


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032618 - 07/02/13 04:43 PM
Both -- depending on what I'm doing at the time, of course!

H

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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: The Elf]
      #1032619 - 07/02/13 04:45 PM
Quote The Elf:



If you truly believe that a standard account on its own is a guarantee of protection you are very wrong.




of course i do make back-ups, i never said i didn't. If you read my post I made some other suggestion for safe IT management. But a AV: you can easily do without. People running standard rights without AV are better of to those running admin with AV



Edited by WaveOnWave (07/02/13 04:46 PM)


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WaveOnWave



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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1032620 - 07/02/13 04:47 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Both -- depending on what I'm doing at the time, of course!

H




so what task require you to log on as an admin ?

Edited by WaveOnWave (07/02/13 04:48 PM)


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032621 - 07/02/13 04:52 PM
Quote WaveOnWave:

so what task require you to log on as an admin ?




That's obvious to man of your intimate familiarity with Windows, surely?

Installing and removing software and drivers, for one -- something which I naturally have to do a great deal as part of my job.

But your claim that: "People running standard rights without AV are better of to those running admin with AV" troubles me considerably.

Even Microsoft themselves state: "Unfortunately, there is a lot of malware that runs with Standard User privileges. Even though it cannot corrupt the whole system, it can damage user files and spy on users."
(Full article here)

Clearly, running as a standard user is a 'Good Thing' is highly advisable and should be encouraged wherever possible... but using and maintaining a good, efficient anti-virus system should be equally highly advisable, if not more so in my view.

H

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tex
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Magic Matt]
      #1032622 - 07/02/13 04:53 PM
Quote:

That's just absolute twaddle. Allow me to explain why your implication that I'm lying (for reasons I can't comprehend) is completely misplaced.

Without anti-virus protection, security vulnerabilities in browsers and email clients are the most common way of encountering an implimentation of a "dropper" - that is a script that once installed will then try to download the main infection.

One recent high profile vulnerability was found in Java, and was published in most of the respected computer press.
http://www.informationweek.co.uk/security/attacks/java-zero-... ld-hit-enterpris/240006341

The important part about understanding a dropper, is that its intent at that stage is not to do anything more than attempt to gain access to the computer so that arbitrary commands can be carried out. It will usually connect to a server and periodically check that server for instructions. Once a good number of machines are connecting to the server, the operator will then issue commands for them to download and run arbitrary code. The code is installed and executed, and runs just as any other background process does on your computer. It can do anything that any normal piece of software would be capable of doing.

You are now in the arena of guessing what the motives of person who has gained some access and control of your computer are. Some of the more common ones are:
- To pool resources and use as many machines as possible to create a DoS attack. That's where you flood a server with more requests than it can handle, and it stops being able to respond - Denial of Service.
- To harvest information, - keyloggers are smart. They don't send every keystroke, they look for patterns. Strings of 16 numbers is usually a credit card number, in which case the data before was probably a name and the data after probably the dates and CVV code.
- To prevent access to your computer - this one is becoming more common. One such infiltration has been very effective in obtaining money by deception, and is hard to track. You'd be amazed how many people fall for it. http://deletemalware.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/remove-police-ce... unit.html
- It may also simply be feeding all your documents to the server at low speed.

Without anti-virus, you may never know it's there. Yes, it's frightening. Unfortunately it's also very real, and people do get caught. Part of my job, is clearing up that mess.




Again, a load of panicky woopsy. Of course if that was the case then every one in the world with a virus checker will have seen one or everyone without a virus checker would be infected. But at least it's an attempt at an explanation so thanks for that. However,

Quote:

Writing simple software applications for keylogging can be trivial, and like any nefarious computer program, can be distributed as a trojan horse or as part of a virus. What is not trivial for an attacker, however, is installing a covert keystroke logger without getting caught and downloading data that has been logged without being traced. An attacker that manually connects to a host machine to download logged keystrokes risks being traced. A trojan that sends keylogged data to a fixed e-mail address or IP address risks exposing the attacker.



From Wiki. Though not against virus checkers I will use what is available and managed a very long time with no virus checker without incident and when one did happen I knew straight away what the trouble was and sorted it via a removal tool. The main cause of virus infection is that far too many idiots (and mostly the ones employed not to waste time like that) trawl the net for porn, free downloads and answer emails offering loadsa money. Then the same said idiots go around telling everyone they must buy anti virus programs, wear a tin hat and very latest and safest way to suck an egg without choking to death.
I look forward to the reply and will not be embarrassed for myself.

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Exalted Wombat



Joined: 06/02/10
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1032660 - 07/02/13 10:36 PM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote WaveOnWave:

so what task require you to log on as an admin ?




That's obvious to man of your intimate familiarity with Windows, surely?

Installing and removing software and drivers, for one -- something which I naturally have to do a great deal as part of my job.




Don't you just get a request to enter an admin password that enables elevated priviliges for just THAT operation?


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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1032671 - 08/02/13 12:14 AM
Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote WaveOnWave:

so what task require you to log on as an admin ?




That's obvious to man of your intimate familiarity with Windows, surely?

Installing and removing software and drivers, for one -- something which I naturally have to do a great deal as part of my job.




as another poster asked for: this should give you a login window asking for admin rights

Quote:


But your claim that: "People running standard rights without AV are better of to those running admin with AV" troubles me considerably.

Even Microsoft themselves state: "Unfortunately, there is a lot of malware that runs with Standard User privileges. Even though it cannot corrupt the whole system, it can damage user files and spy on users."
(Full article here)




lol, did you read the rest of that section you quote from, not in favour of AV either.

Quote:



Clearly, running as a standard user is a 'Good Thing' is highly advisable and should be encouraged wherever possible




exactly my point, but do you read about it in the magazines? no

Edited by WaveOnWave (08/02/13 12:21 AM)


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Magic Matt



Joined: 17/09/10
Posts: 141
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032677 - 08/02/13 12:49 AM
Quote WaveOnWave:

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote WaveOnWave:

so what task require you to log on as an admin ?




That's obvious to man of your intimate familiarity with Windows, surely?

Installing and removing software and drivers, for one -- something which I naturally have to do a great deal as part of my job.




as another poster asked for: this should give you a login window asking for admin rights




Most of the time it doesn't, it just says you do not have permission and you have to log off then log back in as an admin role. What you are describing is more like sudo on Linux.

Quote WaveOnWave:


Quote:



Clearly, running as a standard user is a 'Good Thing' is highly advisable and should be encouraged wherever possible




exactly my point, but do you read about it in the magazines? no




Actually, yes.

There have been several articles about this in Computer Active over its history, a fairly long on e in PCPro a while ago, and I'm fairly sure I also remember seeing it covered in some of the web design magazines etc. at various points. I don't think SOS have ever done an article on it though. Overall it is covered quite a bit... whether it's taken notice of by that majority of computer users is an entirely different ballgame.


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David Else



Joined: 07/02/13
Posts: 2
Loc: Brighton UK
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032819 - 09/02/13 03:06 PM
If you are running Firefox your best method of protection is to run NoScript extension.

This will prevent any website you do not approve in advance from running anything that could compromise your security. It's a pain to start with as you have to 'teach' it what sites you trust, but once its set-up you are very secure. Its always updated and also protects against all sorts of other attacks like 'Clickjacking'.

If you run Windows then Microsoft Security Essentials is good. It's recently been proven to be not that great an anti-virus, but its free, bloat free and integrates into windows well. It should be seen as a minimum requirement.

Running any .exe file you downloaded should be based on how much you trust the author. Anti-virus can't find everything, however good it is.

Keeping your DAW machine offline is a great idea, and making disc image backups of your C: drive is even better. Windows 7 Pro has disc imaging built in, another good free option is DriveImage XML. You probably want to find a recovery CD that has it on in case of total system melt down. The same company provides one (I have not personally tried it yet) Knoppix-Based Runtime Live CD

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markhodges



Joined: 07/01/07
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: tex]
      #1032878 - 10/02/13 09:56 AM
Quote tex:

I once built a friend a computer, clean install of Windows with the only visits to the internet being to download the latest Windows updates. An "expert" friend of his came along and "found" hundreds of viruses. Go figure.




I had an experience while restoring a friends XP laptop from the supplied media and attempting to use an old style USB modem to download the updates, AV and so on. It was impossible to get security stuff downloaded and installed before the machine had been compromised, in the end I had to download everything at home and get it installed before connecting the laptop to the internet.

Quote tex:

Windows security essentials plus the usual rule of never doing so much with your computer that you are likely to forget doing it. That plus the fact that companies and their employees are, incredibly, much more at risk than individuals form viruses and hackers just because they are stupidly lax with security because most of them can't remember anything more than the simplest security routines as a body. So to reassure everyone, you are, with the most basic of security, vastly safer than MI5.




I'd disagree with this. Companies are more vulnerable because they have a much larger surface area to secure and the flow of information around their networks is the life blood of the company.

"Simple" security routines will not protect against malice or criminal activity. To secure a large scale network with thousands of users requires some serious effort, and their comes a point where the cost of the security measures (in terms of lost productivity) outweigh the value of whatever they are protecting. Like most engineering it's all about finding the best compromise.

FWIW, the only time(s) I've had problems with my personal windows machines have been after visiting the websites of well known companies which have been hacked to host malicious code which exploits vulnerabilities in java, flash and so on.

Edited by markhodges (10/02/13 10:15 AM)


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tex
active member


Joined: 01/04/03
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1032899 - 10/02/13 02:14 PM
Quote:

Simple" security routines will not protect against malice or criminal activity. To secure a large scale network with thousands of users requires some serious effort, and their comes a point where the cost of the security measures (in terms of lost productivity) outweigh the value of whatever they are protecting. Like most engineering it's all about finding the best compromise.




That was actually the point I was attempting to make. That domestic users, as most home recordists / composers are, are much safer than corporate users. Along with the tongue in cheek I mean belt or braces but very rarely both.

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Magic Matt



Joined: 17/09/10
Posts: 141
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: The Elf]
      #1032905 - 10/02/13 03:04 PM
Quote The Elf:

Quote WaveOnWave:

it is THE no 1 protection against every IT danger we have.



I'm sorry - this is blind faith, and misguided.

I was an IT professional for 30 years before my full-time career in audio. The No. 1 protection is backup, backup, backup.




Having had to rescue data from backups, I'd say it's got to be a combination of both these days. Backups are great... but when you're also backing up the virus, not so great.

I think there's a good case for saying running in a non-admin account on Windows is fairly pointless. It's not like Windows fo Home users has any security worth fussing over. Now if we were talking corporate LAN, or Linux/Mac, that's different.


Edited by Magic Matt (10/02/13 03:06 PM)


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The Elf
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Magic Matt]
      #1032907 - 10/02/13 03:18 PM
Quote Magic Matt:

Backups are great... but when you're also backing up the virus, not so great.



True.

Backups should cover as wide a time-span as practicable. My studio computers can be recovered to anywhere up to 2 years ago. Incremental backup methods make this relatively simple to achieve.

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Magic Matt



Joined: 17/09/10
Posts: 141
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: The Elf]
      #1032917 - 10/02/13 04:36 PM
Quote The Elf:


Backups should cover as wide a time-span as practicable. My studio computers can be recovered to anywhere up to 2 years ago. Incremental backup methods make this relatively simple to achieve.




My backup tends to be a full backup of the important business stuff each month, incremental backup daily. They go onto an archive off-site back 2 years. Anything not relevant to the current financial year goes in archive, which just has two backups (one off site) - some of that could be anything up to 10 years old, depending on what it is.

Ok, maybe a little over the top, but storage is dirt cheap these days. I usually do an integrity check on the backups each year. I probably should be using something else other than hard disks, but they work, and are easy to store.


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Agharta



Joined: 30/10/04
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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Magic Matt]
      #1032933 - 10/02/13 08:03 PM
Quote Magic Matt:

Quote WaveOnWave:

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote WaveOnWave:

so what task require you to log on as an admin ?




That's obvious to man of your intimate familiarity with Windows, surely?

Installing and removing software and drivers, for one -- something which I naturally have to do a great deal as part of my job.




as another poster asked for: this should give you a login window asking for admin rights




Most of the time it doesn't, it just says you do not have permission and you have to log off then log back in as an admin role. What you are describing is more like sudo on Linux.



I very rarely need to actually log off and log back in as Admin. Sometimes I need to right click on an exe or shortcut and choose the option Run as administrator. This can help in some situations where programmes refuse to run otherwise even when they prompt you to enter the Admin password during the process.
The only instance where I recall needing to log in as Admin is if you want to update a driver via Device Manager as there is no option to Run as Admin. It may be possible to right click on an INF file and Run as Admin but since drivers usually come as exes these days I haven’t got around to testing this theory.


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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Magic Matt]
      #1033035 - 11/02/13 01:59 PM
Quote Magic Matt:

Quote The Elf:

Quote WaveOnWave:

it is THE no 1 protection against every IT danger we have.



I'm sorry - this is blind faith, and misguided.

I was an IT professional for 30 years before my full-time career in audio. The No. 1 protection is backup, backup, backup.




Having had to rescue data from backups, I'd say it's got to be a combination of both these days. Backups are great... but when you're also backing up the virus, not so great.

I think there's a good case for saying running in a non-admin account on Windows is fairly pointless. It's not like Windows fo Home users has any security worth fussing over. Now if we were talking corporate LAN, or Linux/Mac, that's different. In fact, MS is promoting this since NT 4.0 which is their OS from 1996.





pointless? of course not, Microsoft is even promoting this since their first serious OS: NT 4.0 (released in 1996).

Edited by WaveOnWave (11/02/13 02:07 PM)


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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Agharta]
      #1033036 - 11/02/13 02:02 PM
Quote Agharta:

Quote Magic Matt:

Quote WaveOnWave:

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

Quote WaveOnWave:

so what task require you to log on as an admin ?




That's obvious to man of your intimate familiarity with Windows, surely?

Installing and removing software and drivers, for one -- something which I naturally have to do a great deal as part of my job.




as another poster asked for: this should give you a login window asking for admin rights




Most of the time it doesn't, it just says you do not have permission and you have to log off then log back in as an admin role. What you are describing is more like sudo on Linux.



I very rarely need to actually log off and log back in as Admin. Sometimes I need to right click on an exe or shortcut and choose the option Run as administrator. This can help in some situations where programmes refuse to run otherwise even when they prompt you to enter the Admin password during the process.
The only instance where I recall needing to log in as Admin is if you want to update a driver via Device Manager as there is no option to Run as Admin. It may be possible to right click on an INF file and Run as Admin but since drivers usually come as exes these days I haven’t got around to testing this theory.




if UAC is on you can even do that without login on and off!

Edited by WaveOnWave (11/02/13 02:11 PM)


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Magic Matt



Joined: 17/09/10
Posts: 141
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1033086 - 11/02/13 08:28 PM
Quote WaveOnWave:


pointless? of course not, Microsoft is even promoting this since their first serious OS: NT 4.0 (released in 1996).




Microsoft made the OS, so they would. Fact is that any process can easily elevate itself to administrator, bypassing whatever restrictions are on the account you logged in as. That renders the practice pretty useless. I used to do that with old VB programs so they had access to everything - it was about 10 lines of code if I recall correctly.

Running as a restricted user is just giving you a false sense of security on Windows. On a corporate LAN you can still run as Admin on the local machine easily, but elevating permissions on the network is far harder (though still easy compared to Linux or Netware).

Edited by Magic Matt (11/02/13 08:29 PM)


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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Magic Matt]
      #1034876 - 23/02/13 05:56 PM
Quote Magic Matt:

Quote WaveOnWave:


pointless? of course not, Microsoft is even promoting this since their first serious OS: NT 4.0 (released in 1996).




Microsoft made the OS, so they would. Fact is that any process can easily elevate itself to administrator, bypassing whatever restrictions are on the account you logged in as. That renders the practice pretty useless. I used to do that with old VB programs so they had access to everything - it was about 10 lines of code if I recall correctly.





Not when you have a password for your admin account


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OneWorld



Joined: 07/04/09
Posts: 1935
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1034983 - 24/02/13 02:44 PM
Best anti-virus on a dedicated music pc? Take the ethernet cable out. OK increasingly difficult these days with online activation/licence managerds etc, but it can be done, I know because I have using a music pc for some 15 years (Win98, XP, Win7)and not a single virus in all those years! Although I have relented with WIn7, but I connect simply to activate software then I disable the NIC.

For general work I have an old Xeon Quad with WIn7 and Microsoft Defender - 3 years on - no problems at all. Never go to dodgy websites, never open attachments without scanning, even from friends/family (I don't know how effective their AV software is)and immediately delete unsolicited mail especially with attachments and add them to the junk email rule


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 3605
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: OneWorld]
      #1035099 - 25/02/13 11:17 AM
Quote OneWorld:

Best anti-virus on a dedicated music pc? Take the ethernet cable out. OK increasingly difficult these days with online activation/licence managerds etc, but it can be done, I know because I have using a music pc for some 15 years (Win98, XP, Win7)and not a single virus in all those years! Although I have relented with WIn7, but I connect simply to activate software then I disable the NIC.

For general work I have an old Xeon Quad with WIn7 and Microsoft Defender - 3 years on - no problems at all. Never go to dodgy websites, never open attachments without scanning, even from friends/family (I don't know how effective their AV software is)and immediately delete unsolicited mail especially with attachments and add them to the junk email rule




Reading the horror of this thread its no wonder people love their macs!


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Pete Kaine
Scan Computers


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Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: johnny h]
      #1035103 - 25/02/13 11:27 AM
The horror?

Turn on MSE and get on with life... I don't find that overly scary.

Apples aren't immune to trojans, keyloggers and malware either.

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OneWorld



Joined: 07/04/09
Posts: 1935
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: johnny h]
      #1035127 - 25/02/13 12:15 PM
Quote johnny h:

Quote OneWorld:

Best anti-virus on a dedicated music pc? Take the ethernet cable out. OK increasingly difficult these days with online activation/licence managerds etc, but it can be done, I know because I have using a music pc for some 15 years (Win98, XP, Win7)and not a single virus in all those years! Although I have relented with WIn7, but I connect simply to activate software then I disable the NIC.

For general work I have an old Xeon Quad with WIn7 and Microsoft Defender - 3 years on - no problems at all. Never go to dodgy websites, never open attachments without scanning, even from friends/family (I don't know how effective their AV software is)and immediately delete unsolicited mail especially with attachments and add them to the junk email rule




Reading the horror of this thread its no wonder people love their macs!




That's the thing with Apple people - they are quite 'delicate drama queens' But.....here we go, yet another thread morphs into an Apple vs PC rant - for goodness sake Appleytes, change the friggin' record will you? or....come up with something useful to the debate, you're getting boring.


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WaveOnWave



Joined: 03/02/13
Posts: 16
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: johnny h]
      #1035136 - 25/02/13 12:49 PM
Quote johnny h:

Quote OneWorld:

Best anti-virus on a dedicated music pc? Take the ethernet cable out. OK increasingly difficult these days with online activation/licence managerds etc, but it can be done, I know because I have using a music pc for some 15 years (Win98, XP, Win7)and not a single virus in all those years! Although I have relented with WIn7, but I connect simply to activate software then I disable the NIC.

For general work I have an old Xeon Quad with WIn7 and Microsoft Defender - 3 years on - no problems at all. Never go to dodgy websites, never open attachments without scanning, even from friends/family (I don't know how effective their AV software is)and immediately delete unsolicited mail especially with attachments and add them to the junk email rule




Reading the horror of this thread its no wonder people love their macs!




which horror? I have a fine relation with my PC running Vista.


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 3605
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: OneWorld]
      #1035142 - 25/02/13 01:16 PM
Quote OneWorld:

Quote johnny h:

Quote OneWorld:

Best anti-virus on a dedicated music pc? Take the ethernet cable out. OK increasingly difficult these days with online activation/licence managerds etc, but it can be done, I know because I have using a music pc for some 15 years (Win98, XP, Win7)and not a single virus in all those years! Although I have relented with WIn7, but I connect simply to activate software then I disable the NIC.

For general work I have an old Xeon Quad with WIn7 and Microsoft Defender - 3 years on - no problems at all. Never go to dodgy websites, never open attachments without scanning, even from friends/family (I don't know how effective their AV software is)and immediately delete unsolicited mail especially with attachments and add them to the junk email rule




Reading the horror of this thread its no wonder people love their macs!




That's the thing with Apple people - they are quite 'delicate drama queens' But.....here we go, yet another thread morphs into an Apple vs PC rant - for goodness sake Appleytes, change the friggin' record will you? or....come up with something useful to the debate, you're getting boring.




As opposed to this panic and strife over virus checkers, firewalls, user accounts and ripping the ethernet cable out. Which is really very interesting and totally conducive to the music writing process


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tex
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Joined: 01/04/03
Posts: 1126
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1035150 - 25/02/13 02:00 PM
I didn't see the thread morph into an Apple debate. This PC user sees just another PC user jumping on someone's head because they realise you need to know what you're doing before you reinvent the wheel by making a square one and claiming it doesn't roll back downhill.

I suppose I'll be accused of raving by any fool bothered by that.

Viruses: Several ways to do the job all valid and the dog knows how to chase the stick. OK?

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Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.


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The Elf
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Joined: 14/08/01
Posts: 9712
Loc: Sheffield, UK
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: johnny h]
      #1035174 - 25/02/13 05:44 PM
Quote johnny h:

panic and strife over virus checkers, firewalls, user accounts and ripping the ethernet cable out. Which is really very interesting and totally conducive to the music writing process



Panic and strife?!?!? Wha?!

As Pete said - I have a virus checker and it's switched on - end of story. My PC is always connected to the net (and always has been) and I've never had a problem. I just get on with making music!

I have no problem with Macs either, and still use them, but please, let's not make a problem where there isn't one!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
Posts: 22282
Loc: Worcestershire
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: WaveOnWave]
      #1035210 - 25/02/13 10:17 PM
Come on guys, I think all the pertinent points hace already been made and we're all done here, and rising to johnny h's trolling won't help anyone...

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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OneWorld



Joined: 07/04/09
Posts: 1935
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #1035277 - 26/02/13 12:54 PM
Speaks volumes......

http://www.thedrum.com/opinion/2013/02/15/google-searches-bt-war-and-apple-gets-hacked


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johnny h



Joined: 24/07/06
Posts: 3605
Re: very easy and safe alternative for virus-scanner new [Re: OneWorld]
      #1035282 - 26/02/13 01:45 PM
Quote OneWorld:

Speaks volumes......

http://www.thedrum.com/opinion/2013/02/15/google-searches-bt-war-and-apple -gets-hacked




Certainly does, an article that admits its a 'non-story' gets published just because its about apple. Same as with the tiny handful of Apple viruses that get huge publicity. PC viruses and trojans aren't news, they are a way of life.


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