Hi.

Another ancient nooby topic........(both topic and nooby!)

I've got a collection of mostly classical LPs which I want to get onto hard drive. Thanks for the excellent guide and the info in other threads.

I've found nothing anywhere on the net which helps with the question of sound card quality. There is very little comparative reference to ADCs (no surprise I guess!).

I've got an Audigy 2ZS (in what will be the HTPC living in the sitting room), and will soon be buying another sound card - this time for my desktop. The desktop will output to my late father's 5 or so year old top of the range Sony (stereo) separate system. Can't give full info as it is in storage and won't be out for a couple more weeks.

FWIW the two cards I've put on my shortlist are the Audiotrak Prodigy 192 and the Prodigy 7.1 (only available at present on the web from Audiotrak in Korea).

Questions:
1. Is the 44.1khz / 48khz issue relevant to digitsing vinyl?
2. Is there any marked difference between different 'non-Audigy' soundcards for LP capture? – for example, for my purposes is there any substantive quality difference between the 7.1 wolfson codec and the 192 Sigmatel codec?
3. Should I be putting any other cards on my list?

Thanks in advance

You might look at the Emu 1212M for this task. It has some of the best converters on the market, and from all reports seems to be pretty much the best sounding sound card on the market (short of spending a ridiculous load of cash for a very high end card). It will certainly be a good step up from the Audiotrak cards. There is also a cheaper Emu card, the Emu 0404. The Emu cards (as well as most of the other good sound cards on the market) have both been reviewed in Sound on Sound (though you will need an esub to access the articles -- probably a worthwhile investment to get at least a 3 month esub).

As to the 44.1/48 kHz question, I guess it depends on what is to be the ultimate destination media. If you intend to make CDs from your archives, it would probably make the most sense to record your vinyl at 16 bits/44.1 kHz, as this is what CDs use. This way, you won't have any sound quality loss from sample rate conversion, and you won't have to spend the time converting all the files. If you intend only on playing the music from the hard drive, 48 kHz might offer you a bit better sound quality . . . or, better yet, if you have lots of available hard drive space, maybe 24 bits/96 kHz . . .

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Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

yup bub,

Agree with Scott & can't add anything to that advice, apart from the point that Martin Walker makes elsewhere here that the 1212m converters are higher spec than those featured on the 0404.

Hi, Welcome to the forums.

If you aim to do most of the actual listening through the home theatre setup with the audigy then 48khz may be best sample rate to choose. If you were to stick with that then the audigy would be OK to record with, especially if you have platinum pro audigy
There are issues with sample rate conversion but most of these can be avoided.
Audigy not best for 44.1khz material.
If you're aiming to archive valuable / treasured recordings
and you are a demanding audiophile and you do home recording of music, consider emu1812m which I beleive has a specific turntable input and has the same excellent A/D D/As as the 1212m. (Probably over the top as it is a multiple I/O card.)

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With a boom-a-lacka, zoom-a-lacka, wee.

Now I'm going to play devils advocate here - why do you want to do this? I think you would be better spending the money you where going to use to upgrade the soundcard on a reasonable turntable instead.

It will sound better than something that has been a/d'd then d/a'd who knows how many times, you won't be using up hard disc space, you won't run the risk of loosing everything when the disc dies. If properly looked after (i.e. don't do anything silly with it) vinyl will last for years - I have 50 year old recordings that sound virtualy as good as the day they where pressed, I can't see many cd's lasting that well. Probably less than 1% of my vinyl has scratches that are detrimental to listening, whereas for cd's it would be nearer 5% - and I've tried to look after the cd's better whilst subjecting much of my 12"s to quite a hard life by dj'ing!



Anyone with vinyl needs one of the Goldring Super Exstatic cleaning brushes (http://www.goldring.co.uk/home.html) - it'll bring em up like new.

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He who feels punctured must have been a bubble - Lao Tsu.

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Probably less than 1% of my vinyl has scratches that are detrimental to listening, whereas for cd's it would be nearer 5% - and I've tried to look after the cd's better whilst subjecting much of my 12"s to quite a hard life by dj'ing!

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All vinyl has scratches that are detrimental to listening. Even if they don't... the agony of expectation kills the thrill of the music for me. {In other words... I end up paying more attention to the defects than to the actual sounds.}

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www.RTaylor-Design.Com

Probably depends who's doing the scra-scra-scra-scratchin'.

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He who feels punctured must have been a bubble - Lao Tsu.

:} Look at it this way... Do you have *any* idea how much I've saved on cleaning solution and brushes and cleaners and miracle, dust free magical vinyl cleansers since I switched to cds?

Besides, I grit my teeth ever so much less nowadays {dental bills} and I'm not nearly as likely to pester folk with "You heard that... I know you heard that... Did you hear that? The damned things ruined! 'Cause next time I listen to it I'll know that "sound" is on there and I'll sit there and cringe through the whole album until I hear it and then I'll be obsessed with coming up with ways to get rid of it and I won't even notice the last half of the record and then I really will ruin it trying to scrub that damned spot out!"

I've done this with every vinyl disk I've ever owned by the way. {Except for Doors and Steppenwolf albums which just get better with age... something about the crackle I think...}

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www.RTaylor-Design.Com

Thanks to all for your thoughts and guidance. I've been trawling around the net for a couple of weeks trying to find somewhere like this.

What I in fact plan to do is to have a master copy of all my music on a server (FLAC) with backups, and to rip copies to mp3 on cd for use in the family cars.

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. or, better yet, if you have lots of available hard drive space, maybe 24 bits/96 kHz . . .

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Scottdru:
When you get into this kind of standard, presumably one is simply wasting disk space if the original input is an elderly LP?

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Now I'm going to play devils advocate here - why do you want to do this? I think you would be better spending the money you where going to use to upgrade the soundcard on a reasonable turntable instead.

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Itinerant Baker
With a home network with a proper backup regime, once everything is ripped / digitised everybody can enjoy whatever they like, whenever (and more or less wherever) they like. Somehow turning a disk over every 20 minutes or so just doesn't do it for me any more! I guess it's each to his own, but that's the way I'm going...... Thanks for the tip about goldring - it's about 10 years since I've played an LP, so one of those will be very useful!

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Hi, Welcome to the forums.
If you're aiming to archive valuable / treasured recordings
and you are a demanding audiophile and you do home recording of music, consider emu1812m which I beleive has a specific turntable input and has the same excellent A/D D/As as the 1212m. (Probably over the top as it is a multiple I/O card.)

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The reason I did not recommend the 1820M was because of cost, and the fact it is indeed over the top for this. Also, if someone also has a decent turntable and decent hifi gear, they will likely also have an amp with a decent RIAA preamp on it.

ukbubs: Yeah . . . probably a bit over top for what you are trying to do, especially if it's going to end up as MP3s (wasn't sure at what level you were planning to archive, and what was the final destination). I'd say your best bet is going to be to record at 44.1 kHz. If memory serves, I have, from time to time, run across difficulties with some players playing MP3s that were ripped from 48 kHz files. I do not know why this would be, and I have not investigated further . . . I only know that it has happened, and this seemed to be the only explanation as to why a given MP3 wouldn't play. FWIW. I have to admit that I really don't know much about the inner workings of these codecs. Maybe someone else can clarify, or expose it as faulty logic.

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Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Thanks - makes sense. I had homed in on the 1212 - even tho unlike the 1820 it uses two precious pci slots.......

The home FLACs will be much the most important resource - mp3s (lossy?! - wash my mouth out with soap and water!) a secondary consideration. Roll on more and cheaper portable FLAC players!

Check out Arny Krueger's sound card test site at http://www.pcavtech.com - he's been testing sound cards for many years.

I'd also go along with the idea that a good, well adjusted turntable/arm/cartridge is possibly more important than the soundcard. A poorly set-up turntable will only emphasise scratches and tracking distortion.

Cheers.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

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I've done this with every vinyl disk I've ever owned by the way. {Except for Doors and Steppenwolf albums which just get better with age... something about the crackle I think...}

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I had a pop will eat itself or gaye bykers tape that was taped a bit hot on old crap tape. I used to listen to it on a walkman at work & it sounded fantastic. All big dirty beats and grungy synth sounds. But then I listend to the cd at home and it sounded like just another bland 80s production. Sucked all the feel right out of it.

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"To upgrade a computer, physically hardwarewise, is easier than making a lego dog kennel." Tex

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Check out Arny Krueger's sound card test site at http://www.pcavtech.com - he's been testing sound cards for many years.

James.

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Unfortunately the soundcard reviews have not been updated since 22 March 2000. Things have come a long way in 3 & half years. Moores Law, better ADCs better DSPs more competition.
You may find Martin Walker's many reviews on this site more useful.

okay... i know it's overkill but i just want to sing the 1820's praises.... the phono-inputs sound so well, i've been recording lots of records just because it sounds so good

i can only hope that the new EMU WDM drivers will be stable cause i don't want to trade this card in really... rebooting every 5 minutes because you're trying to record something is a major pain in the *ss though.

Although with a high-end turntable and cartridge a higher sample rate might be preferable to preserve the last drop of vinyl 'essence', I'd agree for this application that 16-bit/44.1kHz is probably the best for your transfers.

Don't forget that there are some very capable plugins available for dealing with crackles, clicks and pops, and other background noises - you can use these to clean up any scratches and groove nasties on those recordings after they are in your PC.

By the way, the 1820M (only the M models have those hi-end A/D and D/A converters) does occupy two PCI slot positions if you install the supplied Sync daughterboard with Word Clock, SMPTE, and Timecode ports, although you don't have to do so if you don't want these features.


Martin

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YewTreeMagic

Many thanks to all.

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Although with a high-end turntable and cartridge a higher sample rate might be preferable to preserve the last drop of vinyl 'essence', I'd agree for this application that 16-bit/44.1kHz is probably the best for your transfers.

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I'll play with the higher bitrates, but whilst the turntable in question is good (nothing to do with the system mentioned in my original post its an almost unused beocenter 2200 vintage 1985 or so), I doubt its good enough for higher bitrates. It certainly is in excellent condition. I was worried it might need a new cartridge at $300 plus, but it seems to be OK.

As to plugins - sure, I'll probably be starting with audacity!

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Thanks - makes sense. I had homed in on the 1212 - even tho unlike the 1820 it uses two precious pci slots.......

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As I understand it, the 1212M does not actually use 2 PCI slots, but rather one PCI slot and one PCI bay. Depending on your motherboard and case, you may actually have one more PCI bay than you have PCI slots. Also, there is usually one set of shared PCI slots (separate slots, but shared buss), so you might not necessarily want to use all of the slots anyway (in which case you may be able to use the bay from the shared slot to install the 1212M daughter card).

Even so, if you are wanting to keep it simple and keep the cost down, it looks to me as though the 0404 has some superior specs for about the same price as the other cards you mentioned.

FWIW.

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Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

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As I understand it, the 1212M does not actually use 2 PCI slots, but rather one PCI slot and one PCI bay.

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You had me all excited there - I indeed have one more bay than I have slots (now there's a statement open to misinterpretation!!!).
I've just looked at the manual, and sadly, both mother and daughter cards need slots. Nice thought tho. I'll look at the 0404 review once I've subscribed.

BTW - just been testing the Beocenter with Gerry Rafferty's Nightowl - the first LP I found which I know well enough to know whether the turntable is really performing up to snuff or not - awesome - no wow, no flutter, no 'tinniness' - and no best of all no scratches!

One middle-aged f**t very much looking forward to his birthday so he can get set up to blast up and down the A14 reliving his late teenage years!!

Hmmm . . . weird. Oddly enough, the manual shows a little tab on the daughter card that slides into the actual PCI slot, but the Quick Start Guide show the daughter card without any such tab (shows this way in each for both the 0202 I/O daughter card and the Sync daughter card). I wonder if the tab actually has contacts on it, or if it is just there for extra stability? Might be worth contacting Emu about that. I might actually want to check into that myself, as I'm considering getting a 1212M at some point in the future, and then upgrading it later to an 1820M. I also have an RME card, which I will keep to use along side, so if it really uses an extra PCI slot, that might not be the best of plans.

Martin . . . do you happen to remember if the Sync card on the 1820M you reviewed actually required a second PCI slot in order to work? Or could it be inserted in an empty PCI bay or an ISA slot? (hehe, not that too many people would have those anymore )

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Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

My memory of installing the 0202 daughter card (with the sync options etc) is that it had a small "tongue" on the bottom of the card with metal connectors. I think that was for it to draw power of the PCI bus. I checked the manual and under installation of the 0202 it does say the following:

"Make sure that the gold finger connector of the card is aligned with the PCI bus connector on the motherboard before you insert the card into the PCI slot."

I'm just glad it didn't come with a Blofeld connector....

I don't know if you could use an ISA slot to provide power....

On topic - I use the 1820m with the inbuilt RIAA to connect my turntable (its even got a ground lug) and have been most pleased with the results in copying my old vinyl. However, if you don't require a (small) shed full of IO it may be overkill....

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cheers
Greg

Depending on your budget, there is no "need" to taylor the card to vinyl. If you like overkill, then why not?

If you ever plan to do noise/click reduction, then go above 16bit. The processing later will be thankfull. This is just like any other processing done with music.

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Expert in non-working solutions

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Martin . . . do you happen to remember if the Sync card on the 1820M you reviewed actually required a second PCI slot in order to work? Or could it be inserted in an empty PCI bay or an ISA slot? (hehe, not that too many people would have those anymore )

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The Sync daughterboard receives its power from the 1010 PCI card via the internal ribbon connector, and requires no PCI (or ISA ) slot.

This is why I carefully used the words 'occupy two PCI slot positions', rather than two PCI slots


Martin

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YewTreeMagic