Quote Rousseau:

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Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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Quote BigAl:

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A DJ relies on electronic technology to perform. A musician doesn't have to.
Many musicians will play whatever instrument is in the room. Without his decks, 240V and samples of other peoples' material, a DJ is fairly limited to what he can do.


In fact without any technology what can a DJ actually do?

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Mate, that is a WEAK argument.

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You see it as a weak argument, but it's totally true. I suppose a DJ could scratch his armpits or something, but it would have to be a sampled or pressed vinyl armpit first.

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And a Synth player needs electricity to play too - by your argument Vangelis & Eno don't count as musicians either. Good one.

Edited by Back_AndToTheLeft (23/06/05 12:01 PM)

If you all could rephrase yourselves without the words "is" or "are" then we'd have a less dogmatic discussion.

"DJs are not musicians"

would be

"For me, in my current state of knowledge/ignorance about music, DJ's do not count as musicians."

It's called "e-prime", go look it up.

/v

Quote Neo-Classical Guitar Man
The sheer amount of subtle and not so subtle disciplines, techniques, thought processes and a load of hard work are required to even begin to get to grips with the guitar. Mmmmm...now we come to DJ's........hehehhee...ahem...well I would not be so stupid as to say it would be simple or easy, and yes probably would take a few years but I sincerely doubt I would be required to learn the huge tomb of knowledge of guitar technique and music theory, because the two in my opinion are needed to do it thoroughly and properly.


NCGM

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ttp://www.soundonsound.com/images/forum/graemlins/headbang.gif" alt="" />

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Yes, but at what point in that process would you call yourself a guitarist? Not at the end I assume.

However, I am with you on this. I am neither a guitarist nor a DJ but I have tried both and picking up the basics of use decks is much easier.

There is a lot more to being a good DJ than the mechanics of the process but anyone claiming that DJing at any level has the same scope for complexity or requires the same level as knowledge as a top notch guitarist is just wrong.

That said, the guitar is possibly the one instrument where there are more talentless incompetent 'players' than there are DJs at any abilty level. Some people seem to think just putting one on is cool is some way.

QUOTE:"And a Synth player needs electricity to play too"

Did you actually just say that based on the argument that DJs need technology to perform?

Deary dear...

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Quote Mario Resende:

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Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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What are you saying - that if a genre of music can't be played acoustically it's not REAL music...?

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Can you give us some examples of pieces of music that absolutely cannot be played live by a group of competent instrumentalists?

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Er, anything with a synth or distorted guitar in it?

If he's saying that a DJ isn't a musician because they need electronic equipment and 240v then that must apply to any band that uses amps or synths.

If you're really looking for music that can't be played live, what about Rockit (needs a turntable) or Tomorrow Never Knows - unless you can play the guitar backwards.

You simply cannot recreate the sound that a turntable makes using live instruments, and that sound is an integral part of HipHop, Trip Hop and Electro.

Quote BigAl:

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A DJ relies on electronic technology to perform

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Quote BigAl:

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Did you actually just say that based on the argument that DJs need technology to perform?

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It was YOUR argument...

Quote BigAl:

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QUOTE
I have seen some talented guys doing some great stuff in realtime with turntables and been mighty impressed.
Was he a musician? No.
Does he have a skill and entertained? Yes.
Is he the same guy who plays down the workies on a Friday night? No.
Does he just get on with it, instead of kidding us on he a musician? Yes.
Does he have a big chip on his shoulder about not being able to play a proper instrument? Probably not.
Does he need some sample/dance software to 'make his music' due to any lack of talent? No.

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I thought you were leaving us! Glad you didn't though as much of what you are saying is very valid.

I am with you most of the way on this. A DJ and a musician are in most cases a differnt thing.

For me there are two exceptions.

Firstly, the person using desks to loop and scratch in from records as part of a band playing live. Some music requires this effect to sound the way it does (and some of these people are looping in or scratching their own material). The music itself is a valid musical form. It is the only way you can produce this music live, the band is playing live, producing the music and each of the artists is a musician.

Secondly, scratching. This is a type of music I do not like much . However, doing this well requires a level of practice, skill and talent way above anything required by a mix DJ. Persoanlly I believe the term musician is valid here though I suspect that you would find many such artists don't use the term. (I am somewhat less convinced on this one but risk bias through my lack of enjoyment of the results)

As for someone like Paul Oakenfold, BT, John Digweed etc. All of these people have produced great music as musicians but when they mix records they are DJs.

Quote BigAl:

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A DJ relies on electronic technology to perform. A musician doesn't have to.
Many musicians will play whatever instrument is in the room. Without his decks, 240V and samples of other peoples' material, a DJ is fairly limited to what he can do.


In fact without any technology what can a DJ actually do?

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Heh!

Imagine sitting around a campfire with a bunch of mates in the summer. It's early evening and your friend pulls out his acoustic guitar....

while your other friend pulls out two turntables and a microphone!!



cheers
rich

A distorted guitar or a synth?

Do you think music is something which only comes out of a PA or hifi system?

And where do you think the synth player and 'distorted' guitar player practiced their ideas or learned their instrument on?

Think about it.....

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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Quote Mario Resende:

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Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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What are you saying - that if a genre of music can't be played acoustically it's not REAL music...?

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Can you give us some examples of pieces of music that absolutely cannot be played live by a group of competent instrumentalists?

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Er, anything with a synth or distorted guitar in it?

If he's saying that a DJ isn't a musician because they need electronic equipment and 240v then that must apply to any band that uses amps or synths.

If you're really looking for music that can't be played live, what about Rockit (needs a turntable) or Tomorrow Never Knows - unless you can play the guitar backwards.

You simply cannot recreate the sound that a turntable makes using live instruments, and that sound is an integral part of HipHop, Trip Hop and Electro.

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A good rock (electric) guitarrist can play an acoustic guitar; a good synth player can get on on a piano, etc, etc. One of the skills if a musician is to be able too adapt music, to arrange it so that it can be transferred across classes of instruments!

Whatever music you suggest that can't be played completely live can be arranged for being done so! It takes some talent, some creativity, a knowledge and understanding of the instruments and their limits, grasp of musical structure... in sum: musicianship!

I've actually heard a whole orchestra playing an arrangement of a piece that contained some scratching and although it could've been left out (wasn't essential in the context of the song!), the string section actually emulated the scratching! And it actually sounded much better than the actual scratching of the original. Maybe it was the knowledge that there were actual musicians pulling it off, following an excellently orchestrated score, but hey!

Rich,

My point exactly. One question though:-

How can you play a song around the camp-fire without the distorted guitar?

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

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Imagine sitting around a campfire with a bunch of mates in the summer. It's early evening and your friend pulls out his acoustic guitar....

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And what if the strings break? Primarily because I cut them and then proceed to batter his guitar against the nearest tree in order to prevent the ensuing dreary hippie dirge. Or a Coldplay song.

And I'm quoted correctly.

When I asked about DJs and technology/electricity you used the synth player as an example.

That's funny.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Quote Mario Resende:

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Whatever music you suggest that can't be played completely live can be arranged for being done so! It takes some talent, some creativity, a knowledge and understanding of the instruments and their limits, grasp of musical structure... in sum: musicianship!

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No, I disagree with this. There is plenty of commerial music that requires studio production technicques that cannot be replicated live.

Even in your argument you say the scratching sounded better. This is subjective but confirms it sounded differnt. Therefore not re-produced.

However, that is hardly a valid argument is it? Music has to be comercially viable. I don't see RUN DMC taking an orchestra on tour.

I heard some of the Squarepusher/LSO stuff. Very interesting.

Quote Squarepeg:

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Yes, but at what point in that process would you call yourself a guitarist? Not at the end I assume.

However, I am with you on this. I am neither a guitarist nor a DJ but I have tried both and picking up the basics of use decks is much easier.

There is a lot more to being a good DJ than the mechanics of the process but anyone claiming that DJing at any level has the same scope for complexity or requires the same level as knowledge as a top notch guitarist is just wrong.

That said, the guitar is possibly the one instrument where there are more talentless incompetent 'players' than there are DJs at any abilty level. Some people seem to think just putting one on is cool is some way.

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I agree with you too, but not because it makes anyone look like the argument for or against musicians is being won. No I agree with you because what I am hearing is the voice of reason and common-sense.

I think DJ's can be very skilled and also be very talented at keeping their audience captivated with a good performance. However this is in the context and confines of being a DJ and bears no relation to anything a musician does. I don't have a problem with DJ's, providing they don't have delusions of grandeur (read that as being a musician via turntable use).

As for the guitar, again I agree with you. Yes there are plenty of people that mess around, take lazy short cuts and also have a slack, lazy and "this will do" attitude to learning and playing. There are many who play "licks" instead of actual real musical ideas formed from good grounding in the fundamentals, i.e. chords, scales which are the tools of the trade. Obviously just playing a scale or chord is not real music, but learning how music works will eventually lead to good music if you have both the intelligence and the talent. Also I have never looked cool and wearing a nice guitar isn't going to change this! Howecer I have had many people approach me over the years, after a gig or when they have heard a CD/Cassette via someone else, and they thought I was cool due to the music and the sounds I was creating. Putting on a nice guitar to impress is easy, but gaining respect and admiration through well written and enjoyable music is not! This partly answers your other question of "at which point do I become a musician/guitarist". You tend to reach that point when you play your instrument or a recording of yourself, and then suddenly see that you have achieved most of your initial goals or ambitions with regards to technique, knowledge and experience. You also mentally feel that level of maturity that embelishes your whole being musically.


NCGM

I'm going to start a new thread:-

"Why do DJs appear to be thick?"

The fact that some cannot relate playing an electric guitar to an acoustic or a synth to a piano (for non-electric playing) is beyond belief.
Do they think if a sound is called "Sax Lead", it was just made up?
DJs are definitely not musicians if they're all like that.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

I do not agree.
With good musicianship, you can play just about anything live with one or a combination of instruments.
Certainly some commercially recorded music couldn't be replicated as it was recorded, but there's still and underlying sequence of chords & notes.

Music only has to be commercially viable if you want to sell it.
If you don't care about making money, you can record whatever the hell you like. Nonone says it has to be done a certain way.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Good points but being incompetant on guitar or being cool when putting a guitar on is nothing to do with DJs being musicians.
They are trying to distort the discussion now as they're fed up digging a big hole.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Quote:

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Imagine sitting around a campfire with a bunch of mates in the summer. It's early evening and your friend pulls out his acoustic guitar....

while your other friend pulls out two turntables and a microphone!!

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Thank god for that - if there's one thing I can't stand it's camp-fire acoustic guitar sessions. Please, no more Oasis singalongs.

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Do you think music is something which only comes out of a PA or hifi system?

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No - do you think that music that can ONLY come out of a PA or hifi system doesn't count as music? Don't try and tell me that you can play (for example) the soundtrack to Blade Runner on a piano - if you think that just playing the notes counts, you aren't understanding the music.

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Whatever music you suggest that can't be played completely live can be arranged for being done so!

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So how exactly do you play an orchestra backwards? If the point of the original music was that it combined pre-recorded extracts and found sound (like Tomorrow Never Knows), do you not think you're failing to recreate it properly by leaving that element out?

Quote BigAl:

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Good points but being incompetant on guitar or being cool when putting a guitar on is nothing to do with DJs being musicians.
They are trying to distort the discussion now as they're fed up digging a big hole.

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Up until this point I thought I was, on the whole, on your side!

Quote Squarepeg:

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No, I disagree with this. There is plenty of commerial music that requires studio production technicques that cannot be replicated live.

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True enough but even the mighty Queen had to overcome this hurdle. So how do you think they accomplished this? Yep they relied on their superb musicianship to adapt the way they performed the songs, yet still keeping the character, dynamics and overall content intact. They also had a vocalist who could knock most of the present day so called frontmen into touch, but that is another topic!


NCGM

Quote BigAl:

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I'm going to start a new thread:-

"Why do DJs appear to be thick?"

The fact that some cannot relate playing an electric guitar to an acoustic or a synth to a piano (for non-electric playing) is beyond belief.
Do they think if a sound is called "Sax Lead", it was just made up?

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Oh, I can relate it. But if you went to audition as an organ player and just brought an acoustic piano, I doubt you'd get the job. If you think that any piece of music can be reduced to its chord structure, you're about 50 years out of date. The whole 'production' thing must have passed you by.

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DJs are definitely not musicians if they're all like that.

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What, like me? I'm not a DJ, I just play music with them.

You're still bending this.

OF COURSE MUSIC THAT COMES OUT OF A PA IS MUSIC.
I never suggested that for one minute. Believe me, I have a very broad-minded, objective view of all music.

You're points are getting worse. Backwards sounds live!

I'm not suggesting replicating something pre-recorded with backwards FX, in an acoustic set.
You can still play most songs acoustically.
The beauty of music is all the different ways music can be done, whether acoustic, electric, using samples etc....
As I've said before, I do it all different ways, including loops, FX, samples etc....
You are only seeing it one way and from your posts, you obviously are not a musician. Just a DJ.

Composing with samples & FX can be different from sitting at the piano, although even at the piano, some will picture how they want their piece to turn out - and that could be a completely synthetic recording - FX and all.

The main point being, if DJs introduce themselves as musicians and all of a sudden your in a lodge in the Highlands and there are a couple of guitars, bongos, shakers, etc... and all the musicians pick up something and play your highly produced piece recorded earlier that day, what will the DJ do?
1. Nothing?
2. Use the shakers or bongos to get a groove?
3. Improvise with whatever's in the room?

If you have never been in a scenario like this, I would suggest that you maybe do not appreciate everything about music.
Nights like this can be great, and for all your not reproducing a polished recording, your still playing the same song - just in a different way.
It also very sociable and great fun and lends itself to filling your head with new ideas.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Organs? acoustic pianos? - another null point!

QUOTE:"If you think that any piece of music can be reduced to its chord structure, you're about 50 years out of date"

Believe me, I'm not that daft.
Although good lyrical songs can.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Quote BigAl:

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You are only seeing it one way and from your posts, you obviously are not a musician. Just a DJ.

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Really? I'd better return my music degree then.
I'm not a DJ, I'm a keyboard player and classically trained singer.

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Sure, I can see how playing with your buddies in a highland lodge can be fun (and musical).

Here's the thing - you apparently cannot accept that me jamming with a drummer, bass player and DJ in a room in Peckham can ALSO be music, or you maybe think that the DJ is just there for decoration. The thing is, unless you've tried it you really can't pass judgement.

I've been in both situations - have you?

Quote Squarepeg:

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Quote Mario Resende:

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Whatever music you suggest that can't be played completely live can be arranged for being done so! It takes some talent, some creativity, a knowledge and understanding of the instruments and their limits, grasp of musical structure... in sum: musicianship!

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No, I disagree with this. There is plenty of commerial music that requires studio production technicques that cannot be replicated live.

Even in your argument you say the scratching sounded better. This is subjective but confirms it sounded differnt. Therefore not re-produced.

However, that is hardly a valid argument is it? Music has to be comercially viable. I don't see RUN DMC taking an orchestra on tour.

I heard some of the Squarepusher/LSO stuff. Very interesting.

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If you read my post properly you'll notice I actually said i preferred the string version over the scratching.

Another thing: Music has to be comercially viable?? Why? MOST music in the world isn't!

And when did I say that?

Jamming with a DJ in the room is fine as long as you've got someone with a talent for adding in samples in realtime. Just as jamming in any scenario and improvising with whatever is there.

This discussion is all about DJs claiming to be musicians.

And I have tried it.....and jammed in many different scenarios with different instruments and musicians...for many years. I'll try anything musical. If you have painted a picture of some camp fire luddite, then you are mistaken.

PS. I knew you weren't a DJ. Just a DJ lover.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

HERE's a brainstorm!

You don't HAVE to be a musician to make music!

what?! you say?

Well, I think Norman Cook, Chem Bros, Moby etc... can make music. But they're not musicians! Follow me?

These people (DJs) can edit together chunks of real music to create more music..BUT..they don't have to be musicians to do it!

That's it!! This thread is closed and everyone has their answers!

There are three different ideas here: DJ, Musician, a person who creates music. And none of them are related to each other (ie: a monkey banging on a piano is creating music (atonal ot not), but he's not a musician)



cheers
rich

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http://www.homerecordingstudio.ca
http://www.digitalsoundmagic.com

Quote Mario Resende
If you read my post properly you'll notice I actually said i preferred the string version over the scratching.

Another thing: Music has to be comercially viable?? Why? MOST music in the world isn't!

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I did read your post proprerly. I extened this basic courtesy to anyone who makes the effort to post here.

What I meant was, in expressing that you preferred the live version, you clearly suggest that it was different.

I did not say that all music has to be commercially viable. However, a great deal of music would be completly unviable if you had to produce or perfrom it in realtime with real musicians and there is plenty of music where you could not do so.

It is quite possible to make excellent music, which reaches people on an emotional level with very little musicianship.

There are plenty of excellent talented musicicans turning out bland commercial pap.

There are an even larger number of talented, dedicated and deserving musicians with great ideas who never get anywhere. And tha:

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sucks.

Quote rdolmat:

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Well, I think Norman Cook, Chem Bros, Moby etc... can make music. But they're not musicians! Follow me?


cheers
rich

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I think you may be doing Moby something of a dis-service there.

Quote BigAl:

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If you have painted a picture of some camp fire luddite, then you are mistaken.

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Yeah, I bet you sing Lesbian Seagull with your eyes tightly shut...

Quote BigAl:

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A DJ relies on electronic technology to perform.

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Hmm, I wouldn't exactly call E electricity but I see what you mean!

Here's a thing:-

I recorded a track a while ago and used some samples. One sample was a reasonablt well-know tune (quite old) and was a different rythmn.
I realised that if you triggered the sample at a certain point, it all of a sudden played nicely against the rythmn of the song and fitted really well.
Now if someone could do that when I'm jamming with a band, I would appreciate it, but I'm sure he'd be in the minority.

Still doesn't make him a musician.

The track in question was actually a bit of a jam in the sense that we (me and my mat) were making it up as we went along.
If you fancy slating it to pieces, have a listen. And who needs a DJ when you can do it yourself?
www.plainalias.co.uk/Music/wsyo.mp3

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Quote BigAl:

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Now if someone could do that when I'm jamming with a band, I would appreciate it, but I'm sure he'd be in the minority.

Still doesn't make him a musician.

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They often do a good bit more than that. I can't agree on this one. That person, on that stage, at that time, being part of producing the finished live music is a musician and the turntable is their instrument.

I am far more convinced of this now than before this thread started (i had not really thought about it before).

If you want to go back an redefine the dictionary meaning of the term, good luck. What that person does meets the definition of what a musician is.

I am not trying to troll here. I read all the posts, I thought about it a good deal

The guy who is playing or jamming with his decks with a band is definitely not in the same category as a club DJ who does nothing more than play songs.

I've done some pieces in the past with a mate who had an MC303 just when they came out and we did produce some good stuff.
He did need some musical guidance before he produced interesting sequences and noises etc...
Maybe it's closer to a drummer who might not have musical awareness as far as scales & chords, but can play in time and has a good perception of when to play and when not to.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

If this thread wasn't serious, I would be laughing my head off. I can't believe that it is taking so long for the answer to be accepted or understood even. DJ's are DJ's! DJ's that take up a second instrument and learn it properly AND at least some music theory are musicians. DJ's that only use a turntable are DJ's. It really is that simple and no matter how people try to put a gloss on things or pull the wool over our (our being musicians) eyes, there is no way in a million years this is going to change!


NCGM

Quote Neo-Classical Guitar Man:

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If this thread wasn't serious, I would be laughing my head off. I can't believe that it is taking so long for the answer to be accepted or understood even. DJ's are DJ's! DJ's that take up a second instrument and learn it properly AND at least some music theory are musicians. DJ's that only use a turntable are DJ's. It really is that simple and no matter how people try to put a gloss on things or pull the wool over our (our being musicians) eyes, there is no way in a million years this is going to change!


NCGM

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you forgot "in my opinion"

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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you forgot "in my opinion"

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That's not necessary you know. Everything anyone says can only be their opinion unless they specify a source or attribute the words to someone else. After all, you worked out that reply was his opinion didn't you - so he doesn't need to say it.

Quote Neo-Classical Guitar Man:

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If this thread wasn't serious

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It's not, surely?

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"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

Quote Bertyjnr:

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Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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you forgot "in my opinion"

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That's not necessary you know. Everything anyone says can only be their opinion unless they specify a source or attribute the words to someone else. After all, you worked out that reply was his opinion didn't you - so he doesn't need to say it.

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but in some context it is important because people read this forum for factual information. and sometimes the poster may not be sure that his post is completely accurate. or it may be a way to skin the cat but the poster knows his way is perhaps an odd personal pussy skinning method. IMHO is probably more appropriate in this context though. in my humble opinion.