How would you class a fartist? Le Petomane could control the pitch of his farts.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_394

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.. is this thing on?

Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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Quote Neo-Classical Guitar Man:

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So only the first three to go before he gets his musician badge then eh!

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1) associated theory
2) techniques
3) experience of collaberation
4) improvisation

Where's the other two?

Trust a guitarist not to be able to count...

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Oooops, yeah sorry that would be five not six! The fifth being to learn an instrument and before anyone chips in, a turntable does not count!


NCGM

Some relevent, some not...but this pretty much covers the whole subject for me!...enjoy.

"Turntablism" is a subgenre of pop music which emerged from hip hop. One who engages in turntablism is a turntablist, a term coined by DJ Babu whose mix-tapes bore the name "Babu the turntablist". Turntablists are DJs who use vinyl disc records, and turntable techniques like scratching or beat juggling in the composition of original musical works. Turntablism is generally focused more on turntable technique and less on mixing, rapping or vocal delivery. Some turntablists seek to have themselves recognized as a legitimate musician capable of interacting and improvising with other performers.

DJ Grand Mixer DXT is credited with inventing turntablism, the rhythmic scratching of a record on a turntable, then using different velocities to alter the pitch of the note or sound on the recording, making the turntable a fully performable and improvisational instrument (Alberts 2002).

Turntablists like Roc Raida, Q-Bert, A-Trak, and Kid Koala owe a distinct debt to old school DJs like DJ Kool Herc, Grand Wizard Theodore, Grandmaster Flash, Afrika Bambaataa, and DJs of the "Golden Era of Hip-Hop" such as Eric B, who originally developed many of the concepts and techniques that evolved into modern turntablism. There are also more experimental turntablists such as Christian Marclay, Otomo Yoshihide, Philip Jeck and Janek Schaefer. Within the realm of hip hop, notable modern turntablists are the cinematic DJ Shadow, whose influences stretch to both Diplo and RJD2, among others, and the experimental DJ Spooky, whose Optometry albums showed that the turntablist can perfectly fit within the classic jazz setting. Cut Chemist and Nu-mark, members of old school hip hop collective Jurassic 5, and Mixmaster Mike, who collaborated with the Beastie Boys on 1998's Hello Nasty, are also known as virtuosos of the turntables.

Turntables were actually first used as musical instruments in the 1940's and 1950's by musique concrète and other experimental composers, such as John Cage and Pierre Schaeffer, who used them in a manner similar to digital sampling. Hip hop DJs developed independently of the earlier techniques.

The International Turntablist Federation is an organisation which aims to promote turntablism, it also organises a turntablist world championship on a yearly basis (1997 - Present). Another prominent turntablist world championship organiser is the DMC Technics World Dj Championship (1986 - Present).

The selection of a champion comes from the culmination of the battles between turntablists.

Battling involves each turntablist performing a routine (a combination of tricks) within a limited time period, after which, the routine is judged by a panel of expert judges. The winner is selected based upon score.

"A musician" is a person who plays or composes music. Musicians can be classified by their role in production, including instrument and genre:

A singer (also called a vocalist) uses his or her voice.
An instrumentalist plays a musical instrument.
Composers and songwriters make up music and write it down.
A conductor coordinates a musical ensemble.
Musicians may also dance or produce choreography. The concept of the musician and the status of the musician in society is culture-specific. Think, for instance, about your own concepts relating to "the heavy metalist", "the folk musician", "the DJ", "the sarangi player", "the female drummer", and so on. See also: performer.

Musicians may also be distinguished as amateur or professional. Professional musicians may work freelance, contract with a studio or label, or may be employed by an institution such as a church or business such as a bar.

Songs may be produced by some animals, including birds. Although many would surely debate whether birds are musicians, their ability to produce variations on the characteristic song of their species is a subject deserving more research (though relating less to music and more to animal communication). The freestyle chatter of even common birds, although lacking the complexity of methods employed by human beings, must be regarded as having some relation to the origins of music. Human beings did not begin producing music by banging away on a keyboard, nor are they the only creatures which respond to (or produce) rhythm and melody.

"A disc jockey" (often DJ) is an individual who selects and plays pre-recorded music for the enjoyment of others. In circles and cultures where reggae and related musical styles are prevalent such as Jamaica, Panama, and other parts of the Caribbean and Latin America, the work of the "Deejay" is divided up and can also refer to an MC or rapper. The word "selector" is used as the title of the person who chooses the records, the disc jockey playing them. Thus what Jamaicans call deejaying, chatting, or toasting may be called rapping in other parts of the world. Reggae artists who sing in styles similar to rap have also been called deejays.

DJs can be heard on the radio and at any number of social gatherings, such as weddings, nightclubs, art openings, warehouse parties, and high school dances. As a result there are many different types of DJ, each fitting into a particular niche defined by performance setting (broadcast booth or nightclub) and intended audience (jazz or hip hop fans). A DJ's performance style and the techniques he or she employs must reflect these considerations. For instance, wedding DJs play music but are often expected to act as a masters of ceremony who introduce the bride and groom, lead dances, or invite guests to play games. A DJ at a rave would instead be expected to introduce a greater technical element to their performance by manipulating the songs they play in order to maintain a given tempo and energy level.

Some consider deejaying to be not a single action but rather a series of actions that depend on situation and expectations. However, whether talk radio shock jocks like Howard Stern and Don Imus that do not play music ought to be referred to as DJs or "on-air personalities" is often debated.

Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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Quote rdolmat:

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Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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Is a theremin a musical instrument?

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Yes

Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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So what about when a DJ uses the pitch control to play a melody out of a fixed tone?

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What about it?

Any monkey can do that!

I could play a 3 tone scale too!

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Do you have a good answer, or not?

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well..you're saying

Theremin + pitch control = musician
Trombone + pitch control = musician

DJ + pitch control = musician?

therefore:

all DJs in the world = musicians?

come on!

show me a staff/score for a song to be played on the 'turntable instrument'!

I believe instruments should have notes/staff/notation reproducable on paper allowing sharing of musical ideas.



DJ, "Hey guys! Listen to this new song I wrote" - wee-oo-wee-oo-oo-wee-oo!!!

"It's called 'The Siren'" Wanna buy it?

And imagine listening to a whole album of that!!

This is all in good fun though, so let's not take it too seriously!

--------------------
http://www.homerecordingstudio.ca
http://www.digitalsoundmagic.com

Quote rdolmat:

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show me a staff/score for a song to be played on the 'turntable instrument'!

I believe instruments should have notes/staff/notation reproducable on paper allowing sharing of musical ideas.

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I think this by far the best argument yet as to why turntables are different than an actual instrument.

The ablity to score it on paper is huge good job rdolmat

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There's only music so that there's new ringtones. -Arctic Monkeys

Quote rdolmat:

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Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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Quote rdolmat:

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Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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Is a theremin a musical instrument?

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Yes

Quote Back_AndToTheLeft:

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So what about when a DJ uses the pitch control to play a melody out of a fixed tone?

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What about it?

Any monkey can do that!

I could play a 3 tone scale too!

---

Do you have a good answer, or not?

---

well..you're saying

Theremin + pitch control = musician
Trombone + pitch control = musician

DJ + pitch control = musician?

therefore:

all DJs in the world = musicians?

come on!

show me a staff/score for a song to be played on the 'turntable instrument'!

I believe instruments should have notes/staff/notation reproducable on paper allowing sharing of musical ideas.



DJ, "Hey guys! Listen to this new song I wrote" - wee-oo-wee-oo-oo-wee-oo!!!

"It's called 'The Siren'" Wanna buy it?

And imagine listening to a whole album of that!!

This is all in good fun though, so let's not take it too seriously!

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http://www.concertoforturntable.com/cft/Concerto%20For%20Turntable.pdf



I read about another group of people working on a turntable/scratch notation system a few years ago but can't remember who they were. I'll have a look. They did have actual examples of score to see on their site too.



(the 'best argument yet' haas just been scuppered - hurrah! )

Edited by Will Old (24/06/05 06:42 PM)

Quote Will Old:

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http://www.concertoforturntable.com/cft/Concerto%20For%20Turntable.pdf



I read about another group of people working on a turntable/scratch notation system a few years ago but can't remember who they were. I'll have a look. They did have actual examples of score to see on their site too.





(the 'best argument yet' haas just been scuppered - hurrah! )

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very interesting indeed much respect goes to Radar, however he already has a background in classical music which would put him the musician/dj category, which is a far cry from a majority of DJ's who have no such training. like the article itself says "Misconceptions - This piece showcases and distinguishes the difference between a being a DJ and a turntablist because
many people make the folly of combining the two as the same. " Which is exactly what I've been saying all along

IF all you do is match beats and have no broader knowledge of music you are a DJ not a musician.

I have no problems calling Radar a musician.

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There's only music so that there's new ringtones. -Arctic Monkeys

What remains to be seen is, how many DJ's are actually going to go out and learn to read/write DJ scratch notation in order to justify themselves a musician?

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There's only music so that there's new ringtones. -Arctic Monkeys

Quote:

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It is specifically
scored to showcase all the complex rhythms and melodies that can be performed on a turntable by an advanced virtuoso.
Some of the sections are so difficult that it would take even the best virtuoso months to practice.

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If a DJ is to study notation reading and playing by sight these complex rhythms and melodies then s/he will have more than likely developed an appreciation of what goes into a serious study of music. And in turn will have earned my respect as a fellow musician.

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There's only music so that there's new ringtones. -Arctic Monkeys

I completely agree with you.

I posted the above not as justification that 'DJ's' (now almost pointless using this term in this discussion) are musicians but that the turntable can be used as an instrument, capable of creative expression.

The messiness (is that a word?) of the debate thus far and the complete confusion/ignorance/lack of distinction between terms is one of the reasons I have stayed out of this.

For example, using the term 'DJ' to describe someone who makes 'dance' music (itself a horrible and misused term) is ridiculous and shows either very messy use of terminology or great lack of understanding of the subject.

Quote Will Old:

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I completely agree with you.

I posted the above not as justification that 'DJ's' (now almost pointless using this term in this discussion) are musicians but that the turntable can be used as an instrument, capable of creative expression.

The messiness (is that a word?) of the debate thus far and the complete confusion/ignorance/lack of distinction between terms is one of the reasons I have stayed out of this.

For example, using the term 'DJ' to describe someone who makes 'dance' music (itself a horrible and misused term) is ridiculous and shows either very messy use of terminology or great lack of understanding of the subject.

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Very well put Will I couldn't agree more

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There's only music so that there's new ringtones. -Arctic Monkeys

Quote Teos:

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Quote:

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It is specifically
scored to showcase all the complex rhythms and melodies that can be performed on a turntable by an advanced virtuoso.
Some of the sections are so difficult that it would take even the best virtuoso months to practice.

---

If a DJ is to study notation reading and playing by sight these complex rhythms and melodies then s/he will have more than likely developed an appreciation of what goes into a serious study of music. And in turn will have earned my respect as a fellow musician.

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And I'm sure you will agree that this could be achievable (though more difficult) with no prior or conventional musical training.

Quote Teos:

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What remains to be seen is, how many DJ's are actually going to go out and learn to read/write DJ scratch notation in order to justify themselves a musician?

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Completely, but I'm sure you will also agree that that is not the point of this debate.

Quote Will Old:

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Quote Teos:

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Teos Quote:

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It is specifically
scored to showcase all the complex rhythms and melodies that can be performed on a turntable by an advanced virtuoso.
Some of the sections are so difficult that it would take even the best virtuoso months to practice.

---

If a DJ is to study notation reading and playing by sight these complex rhythms and melodies then s/he will have more than likely developed an appreciation of what goes into a serious study of music. And in turn will have earned my respect as a fellow musician.

---

And I'm sure you will agree that this could be achievable (though more difficult) with no prior or conventional musical training.

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yes it is achievable

Quote Will Old:

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Quote Teos:

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What remains to be seen is, how many DJ's are actually going to go out and learn to read/write DJ scratch notation in order to justify themselves a musician?

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Completely, but I'm sure you will also agree that that is not the point of this debate.

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this debate has been on so many tangents that I doubt very many people even remember what the original argument was.

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There's only music so that there's new ringtones. -Arctic Monkeys

Quote Teos:

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Very well put Will I couldn't agree more

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Why thank you

Quote Teos
this debate has been on so many tangents that I doubt very many people even remember what the original argument was.

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ttp://www.soundonsound.com/images/forum/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Why oh why did I attempt to follow this?

My head hurts, can I go home?

Let's see if we can hit nine pages

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There's only music so that there's new ringtones. -Arctic Monkeys

Yeah ok.

It'll give me a chance to try out some of these smileys I haven't used yet



Ooooh that's a good one

Hey everybody up for a new word association thread here?

I'll start it off

DJ




HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

Huhh I'll get my coat now.

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There's only music so that there's new ringtones. -Arctic Monkeys

Musician......


Hmmm, I'm not sure whether I'm being sarcastic or not

Quote Will Old:

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Musician......


Hmmm, I'm not sure whether I'm being sarcastic or not

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LOL how did I know that would be the next word

here's my next one ready.....








farting monkeys

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There's only music so that there's new ringtones. -Arctic Monkeys

Quote Teos:

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here's my next one ready.....


farting monkeys

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Forest wind!

WOOHOOO DUDES BE XSELENT TO EACH OTHER , THIS IS NOW THE FUTURE AND YOU CAN TAKE SOUNDS THAT ARE NOT PHYISICALY MADE BUY MAN AND CALL IT MUSIC, WHO WANTS TO SPEND THE TIME LEARNING TO PLAY A ACCTUAL INSTRUMENT WHEN YOU CAN BUY A SOFTWEAR PROGRAM AND SAMPLE EVERYTHING OR GET SOME PRE RECORDED MUSIC AND SPIN IT.THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF LEVELS OF INTERTAINMENT -----------------LEVELS

Quote jd777:

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WOOHOOO DUDES BE XSELENT TO EACH OTHER , THIS IS NOW THE FUTURE AND YOU CAN TAKE SOUNDS THAT ARE NOT PHYISICALY MADE BUY MAN AND CALL IT MUSIC, WHO WANTS TO SPEND THE TIME LEARNING TO PLAY A ACCTUAL INSTRUMENT WHEN YOU CAN BUY A SOFTWEAR PROGRAM AND SAMPLE EVERYTHING OR GET SOME PRE RECORDED MUSIC AND SPIN IT.THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF LEVELS OF INTERTAINMENT -----------------LEVELS

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Please stop shouting... and how's that of any relevance? We're not discussing what is or isn't INTERTAINMENT!

Yeah what the hell was that for?! Also, the long process of learning to play an instrument is part of the experience, the joy etc and is a crucial role in bonding with it. Most guitarists and probably many others who play different instruments, would say that their instrument is their best friend for life.


NCGM

I agree!

Quote:

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WHO WANTS TO SPEND THE TIME LEARNING TO PLAY A ACCTUAL INSTRUMENT WHEN YOU CAN BUY A SOFTWEAR PROGRAM AND SAMPLE EVERYTHING

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This must be the most moronic argument I've ever encountered! Who wants to have a nice meal when you can just go to McDonalds? Why practice any sport when you can watch it on TV?

That guy's style sounds like the person who recently offered me one billion dollars to help him look after his oil executive brother's money!

hehe, looks like we now have a common enemy

Quote Stan:

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How would you class a fartist? Le Petomane could control the pitch of his farts.

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That's not such a big deal. Most DJs can actually talk through their arses. Mind you, many musicians do too.

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"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

Quote jd777:

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WOOHOOO DUDES BE XSELENT TO EACH OTHER , THIS IS NOW THE FUTURE AND YOU CAN TAKE SOUNDS THAT ARE NOT PHYISICALY MADE BUY MAN AND CALL IT MUSIC, WHO WANTS TO SPEND THE TIME LEARNING TO PLAY A ACCTUAL INSTRUMENT WHEN YOU CAN BUY A SOFTWEAR PROGRAM AND SAMPLE EVERYTHING OR GET SOME PRE RECORDED MUSIC AND SPIN IT.THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF LEVELS OF INTERTAINMENT -----------------LEVELS

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This is exactly what I was referring to as to what I meant by DJ's who could care less as to learn anything musical but can mix two tracks together and call themselves musicians. I run into people like this all the time.

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There's only music so that there's new ringtones. -Arctic Monkeys

The age old arguement resurfaces once again.

I've been DJing for 4 years, and i have never referred to myself as a musician. I know many DJs and I can't recall one ever claiming they are msuicians. I think your just taking one isolated incident and blowing it out proportion. DJs are people who spin records, plain and simple. There are great DJs and there are s*** DJs, just like there are great musicians and s*** ones.

But does it really matter? If it makes people happy, then why bother arguing about it. I dont think the people listening to a DJ would give a [ ****** ] either way as long as they were having fun. I certainly couldnt give a f*** about whether people think im a DJ or musician.

As for being musically trained or not, i think its been proved that it doesn't matter either way. I am not denying the usefulness of being classically trained (i am classically trained myslef), it certainly has its advantages. But it is not the be all and end all. Would you say Vangelis is not a musician? He isn't musically trained but he has more understanding than all of you would ever hope to achieve. I have a friend who has completed grade 8 piano yet he feels crippled by it, as he finds it hard to break rules and trying to write non-classical music.

To the people complaining about DJs shouting on thier mics non stop, who the f*** are you listening to? I've seen many DJs play out (sasha, digweed, richie hawtin, speedy j etc...) and they barely said 2 words. Sure, if you go to a wedding or some club that plays top 40, what the f*** do you expect. If you set yourself up to be disappointed by going to hear a DJ like that, then you don't deserve to be able to complain.

Are people who play in cover bands musicians? I've played in cover bands before playing keys. All I was doing ws playing someone else's material. Am I a musician?

In short, DJs aren't musicians, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. Techinical and manual skills aside, there is a alot of understanding involved in being a great DJ. Its alot more subjective, and its not as black and white as musical theory.

There are some musicians that are great DJs. Sadly, there are alot of s*** DJs, but there are alot of s*** poser musicians/wannabe musicians too.

Being grade 8 and simply reading someone else's music and regurgitating it doesn't make you a musician. People say that beat matching is easy, and indeed with practice its easy. But unless your severly mentally challenged, reading music is easy too. Too many people have thier heads way to far up thier ass. Music is music, and if you enjoy it, whether your a DJ, musician or just appreciate it thats all that matters. Don't forget, its supposed to be FUN.

Quote Twilo Thunder:

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I've played in cover bands before playing keys. All I was doing ws playing someone else's material. Am I a musician?

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Play

and

Play-back

are two different things. I said it before, and I'll keep saying it...

DJ's playback; and musicians play.

DJ's are 'live-editors'. not musicians

cheers
rich

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http://www.homerecordingstudio.ca
http://www.digitalsoundmagic.com

Le Petomane. could never actually talk through his arse. But he was uniquely talented none the less.

--------------------
.. is this thing on?

Frank Zappa is on record as describing the one of the big London orchestras as a 'bunch of greedy mechanics'.

His point was that the creative part of music is the composition (or improvisation), and that anyone playing other people's notes is in fact merely a (less-than-perfect and sometimes purely obstructive) playback device.

He finished the rant by saying he would be working with samplers in future.

If you follow Mr Zappa's thinking, then some DJs are creative musicians and some aren't. And some musicians are creative musicians, and some aren't.

I have spent years getting to a very good standard of bass playing, but a good DJ can do things for a crowd that I just can't. This has nothing to do with technique, and everything to do with leading an audience on a journey of your choosing.

For a discussion of 'what is music anyway', you could try Googling John Cage.

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Instant gratification is actually pretty good. It's fast as well.

A lapdancer can do things for crowd that I couldn't do with my bass either.
Not all entertainers are musicians.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Quote BigAl:

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A lapdancer can do things for crowd that I couldn't do with my bass either.
Not all entertainers are musicians.

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Oh, man! Now why did you have to plant that thought in my head?!

You should see what a lap dancer can do with a jew's harp.

Y does everyone stereotype each other.. stop saying that... Y do we have categorize everything ....dont do this
I guess it is not the Professions what make a person artistic or an artist. It is themselfs... It is the offspring of their brains, mental or emotionaly... there are so many forms of art ...Some dude mentioned plumbers ...
they cant express themselfs with pipes????.... How about stock analyts... numbers arent too good of a medium for art ????....

The Old Turkish language serves a great answer to this delimmae ... There are 2 words Sanat and Zanahat... phoneticly they are were close.. but the meanings are carrying a nuance.....

Zanahat means .. a profession requering handskills and time and experince.. such as mosaic work, brick layering, Furniture and decorative fineworks, handscrips,books, all of these are zanahat ....

Sanat however is not so much of a profession but rather is more the love and self dedication to self expression.......
This basicaly means ART ....

but what I am tring to say is that Not DJ'S but that stupid dj at the wedding maybe.... But dont start putting people in classes .... Is qbert an artist thats a question....
or is DjShadow a commertial muscian ..... ...... Stop this nonesense .... YOU HAVE WRITTEN 8 PAGES my god....

What the...

Great post BadFish and welcome to the forum... keep writing for everyone here ... peace