Is your musical creativity as diverse as your broad taste in music?

Or as narrow?

Or both?

What do i mean?

Coldplay just does the same song over and over and over and... Extreme example perhaps?

The doves, sorry... Doves. They did one dancey number, had a minor hit, shortly escaped, sorry, disappeared for a while to come back as Doves, sorry The doves, f**k it...

Aphex twin does Aphex twin.

But most (most not all?) band/artists do what they do and do it.

Well or not is down to taste, but how many acts mainstream or otherwise put out some rock ep and an authentic house track, and maybe even a pop track, dare i say write a few funky jazzy little numbers, not to forget that potential drum and bass track they did when they were rounds so and so's house. Or did we do the house track at so and so's?

Am i being clear? It's sometimes hard to nail a point in a couple of sentences in this heady musical existence, but i hope at least a couple of you get the drift.

Would being a multi genre artist be a difficult proposition for the average label to market?

Would it be an advantage?

Do i have a first cousin in the music industry....?

Not saying a musician who writes in his chosen genre is not capable of writing a tune outside of that, that would be stupid. it's just that you dont blatantly see it, or do you?

Ok so we have the sampler, technology, blah blah blah, for that, dont give a stuff, well a bit maybe.

Today everything goes, for the good and the bad in music, "genre bending" someone here said once, good term, wasn't me.

And we all do that, dont we? Genre bending that is...

But there will always be music, and there will always be songs, and there will always be the distinctive genres, even if a lot do/can merge or be bent, and that's good, probably obvious.

I mean, Aerosmith and Run DMC, sort of what i mean, that alludes to it, erm?

Imagine Run DMC having a go at a "proper" rock track and Aerosmith doing a hip hop track. I think that's a good analogy.

Coldplay writing a brand new song?

Not such a good analogy, but couldn't resist.

Ooh, thats a long one.

Good point Realmusic... it's a dilemma I know well.

As we've discussed before chart music isn't the place for experimentation or surprises. The mainstream likes consistent brands. Damon Albarn (and most others) who do a bit of genre swapping tend to release separate projects. And I can't think of an artist with a wide range who has made it very big. XTC probably suffered from confusing the pop market with too many faces. Warren Zevon, Randy Newman, Tom Waits and others who have more variety than average tend to grow as writers rather than one man brands.

Recently I decided to do all my newer stuff under one roof (I was planning two separate projects) because I think the low volume end of things is a different beast.

I came a cross a guy called Buck 65 who has hit this problem. There's an article you'll probably find through Google News... I didn't keep the link.

Many years ago when I did my first bunch of stuff to send out as demos it was all the same style (post-punk power pop) for this reason, and to be honest I did force some of the songs into clothes that didn't really suit them. Previously I had been in a rock band and a blues band, and started out in kind of psychedelic folk.

There probably isn't a right answer... but if you're chart-bound you'll most likely have to think about it carefully.

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Being diverse is an asset in TV, FIlm and Library work but not in the commercial singles and album market where the emphasis is placed on structure and focus. As an analagy: suppose Levis suddenly started making tutus?

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"Is your musical creativity as diverse as your broad taste in music?"

Sounds like you're asking me this question directly. The answer is unequivocally and emphatically yes. But, thats' why the big record companies can't sign intelligent music. It's a paradoxical duality. Only through steady and targeted music genre can the value of repetition be utilized for the implicit purpose of continued record sales. "Dummy up you kids".

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Just Press Play www.soundcloud.com/bravenote

Hiya Peter.

It's merely a question, one that's been in my head existing.... Nice answer.


"The answer is unequivocally and emphatically yes."

Especially that bit... Me too, me too. And surely loads of others? Hence the question!

Although it's no advantage, seemingly. Well it is, if viewed from the "music being it's own reward" perspective, and believe me, the ability to compose music/write songs is a wonderful thing, i truly believe it's kept me sane in harder times.


"Released under the pseudonym....." Different "act" names for different styles of music, fair enough.

I just dont see the need to, aside from a purely business perspective of marketing/demographic/ego driven/ moneymoneymoney culture.

As the diy ethos gains momentum and more avenues open, personal circumstances change, or whatever, this idea of multi genre under the one "roof".... Erm? Will become more prevalent? I mean in the brackets under the song title it's gonna be the writers name/your name, even if the logo is different, sorry if i'm unclear, it all buzzes around in this mind of mine.

Why?.... Not the buzzing.

Processing..... More to follow. Click whirr.

Quote Rob C.:

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There probably isn't a right answer... but if you're chart-bound you'll most likely have to think about it carefully.

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What is this chart you speak of?

It really doesn't work like that chaps!

If you gauge success by writing music to play to friends and family and being fulfilled in that way, then being multi-genre is fine. Success in terms of a career in composing on the other hand is another matter, and I'm afraid you won't get very far if people don't know what they are going to get.

It also assumes that you are excellent at everything when there are obviously many areas of music in which to excel and many people specialising in those particular areas. Being able to write a chart topping song does not mean you could write the music for a successful TV commercial, just as writing a ballad doesn't mean you could compose a symphony. People often put on a CD to reflect the mood they are in and a CD that jumps from style to style isn't going to get chosen very often!

Would you buy a Rolling Stones choral album? A Radiohead Polka CD? A Slipknot Jazz album?

Pseudonym is the only way to go - that's why we have the Gorillaz ...

There is a saying: Jack of all trades and master of none.
Know your strengths, play to them.

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Edited by Commander (10/07/05 09:46 AM)

A jack of all trades would have a better vision of an overall product

I think we're in danger of proverb transliteralisation meltdown syndrome.

Jack of all trades means two things: someone who knows a bit about different things; and in the proverbial sense, someone who knows a bit about so many things that they're not good at any of them.

For sure, George Martin (as an example) had many strings to his bow, but he was also master of several (if you can be master of a string).

So, in one way Paul you're right... but your jack does need to be a master at something to produce the goods.

I think it is possible to pull a number of genres under one roof, but it also takes a lot of care with the mix. It won't work on just any mixture.

well im not one to join in with others and be influenced by the potatoe slinging mob ... but why dont you shut the fk up you loser:) im duckin

That's why I love the idea of becoming a film score composer. Because for people who "genre-bend" so much, it's either that or having multiple monikers. And it's hard enough establishing one!

theres a lot to think about for a big artist. a lot of the stuff gets samey because music actually ends up taking a back seat. thats the trouble with that merry-go-round. it isnt good for music. alright in the day of the three year album megastar artists. i always loved 'the tubes' for this. their earlier albums were collage of genres. queen didn't really give a hoot, zep, stranglers. many others, bound with a 'sound'. but artistic diversity was respected then. in a lot of cases i think the pro-tools mans work is the thing you can hear most of now on a lot of 'chart' tracks. theres a number of artists with a hard, dont give a damn, change the world, shake it up image. but they are mostly chicken. scared to buck and do something interesting on their record. i feel sorry for them. trapped on a wooden horse. funny i can't watch big current bands these days without feeling a bit sorry for them. they are more circus acts than ever, particularly with the quick fire three song formats we see on party in the park type presentations. sippose the squeeze is responsible. think theres a few things at fault here in the uk. first theres not enough places to play anymore. its like if you want great tennis players you have to build tennis courts. so people dont get used to seeing a lot of different types of music played. 'live music promotes all music' . when i was a kid i would see george melly on the same stage as the damned. it was completely natural to go and have three venues on a day out. there was so many places with cheap live music. you could catch a noel coward type act at the cafe de paris on waterloo station for free (anyone see him?) etc. so the artists have become weak, and the standards have dropped. its a bit like digital technology. the standards have dropped everywhere in music. people get away with some right old tosh. big acts, name acts. the people who are supposed to be pushing the barriers because they have access to the great studios and the great engineers, players and the time, shame on them for not taking more chances and delivering more diverse material!

Well, record companies (most of them) are always going to put out records that strike the chord of familiarity. Anything else is too big of a risk. There's so much money involved in putting out a record on a major label, that more than likely anything out of the ordinary would be frowned down upon. That's why theres so much good music (and bad music) that is being put out on independant labels. Its all experimental.

Actually now I come to think about it, I really would like to hear a Slipknot jazz album!

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Quote The Openwater:

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well im not one to join in with others and be influenced by the potatoe slinging mob ... but why dont you shut the fk up you loser:) im duckin

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Missed this - were your potatoes aimed at me?

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no commander, rob was involved in a punch up on another thread. i was just taking the p. not you commander. hows marina, she said anything about me?

Quote PlinPlickemn:

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That's why I love the idea of becoming a film score composer.

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Even then you get known for a sound and style. People are very keen to pigeon hole you from the word go. Look at Danny Elfman, John Williams, James Horner, Thomas Newman, Alan Silvestri, all very easy to identify just by listening to their music.

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Quote The Openwater:

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hows marina, she said anything about me?

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It's all a bit fishy. She's not said anything much about anything lately. Come to think of it she's never said much about anything ...

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same old same old, tempist did that. bet she opens up when she sunbathes on the shores of lesbos.

There's 3 sides to every story as Extreme once said (why am i quoting them? Must be the heat in my flat... )

1) If by doing a song in a genre, you mean creating a song in a textbook kind of way (copying the mainstream bands/composers of the genre), then i think the problem isn't how many genres you should write in but why don't you show your own personality?

2) If we're talking about letting different genres influence your chosen musical form (be it songs, instrumental music, opera, film scoring etc), i think this is the basis of great artists. They might be mostly influenced by a certain genre but they will also be able to incorporate other influences (not only musical influences) into their music and their music will be even more personal for it, creating their own universe to which fans will be able to relate strongly (i'm thinking about artists like Nick Cave, Patti Smith, Alphex Twin... who have a very dedicated fan base).

3) If we're talking about writing totally different forms of music - songs, instrumental electronic music, a musical etc - i think it's healthy to diversify but perhaps it's best to make sure to master one form before jumping on to the next.


From my own experience, i think that if you want to get signed to an indie label, you have more chances if you belong to category #2.

I don't know much about major labels; my impression is they would rather you stick to one genre and don't make it too personal.

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Songwriting and music recording blog

I think there is a huge difference between being influenced by something or someone and actually specifically sitting down to write a song in a particular vein or genre. My own experience has taught me that the scatter gun approach yields far fewer results than concentrated fire. You can make lots of small holes with the former but one big hole with the latter - just a minute, why the hell have I gone all military?

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One of the problems I have (and I cover a broad band of genres) is drums... and it would take more than one drummer / Percussionist / programmer to cope with all those genres

Edited by DragonLogos (10/07/05 10:37 PM)

Quote RachelAPP:

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There's 3 sides to every story as Extreme once said (why am i quoting them? Must be the heat in my flat... )

1) If by doing a song in a genre, you mean creating a song in a textbook kind of way (copying the mainstream bands/composers of the genre), then i think the problem isn't how many genres you should write in but why don't you show your own personality?

2) If we're talking about letting different genres influence your chosen musical form (be it songs, instrumental music, opera, film scoring etc), i think this is the basis of great artists. They might be mostly influenced by a certain genre but they will also be able to incorporate other influences (not only musical influences) into their music and their music will be even more personal for it, creating their own universe to which fans will be able to relate strongly (i'm thinking about artists like Nick Cave, Patti Smith, Alphex Twin... who have a very dedicated fan base).

3) If we're talking about writing totally different forms of music - songs, instrumental electronic music, a musical etc - i think it's healthy to diversify but perhaps it's best to make sure to master one form before jumping on to the next.


From my own experience, i think that if you want to get signed to an indie label, you have more chances if you belong to category #2.

I don't know much about major labels; my impression is they would rather you stick to one genre and don't make it too personal.

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Will you mary me?

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Wow, lots of good comment, great.

Openwater, that wordy post above, nice post.
I can only say that i'm with you on your general concensus there... Far more substance than the average subtle interjection.

Commander, your views are valid and relevant, there can always be exceptions to every rule, especially in an artform that has few creative rules. From a modern day business perspective you are probably bang on the money, but from a purely artistic standpoint maybe not so much, or maybe that's due to our medium of communication , typed words, crossed wires, my lack of articulation?

Why do i continue to compose? Why do i love music soooo much?

Not to play to family and friends, not to perhaps have my ego massaged if loads of girls raped me at the first live gig and not to become a rich man, definitely not fame.

So why? Cause i can (subjective) and i believe in it.

The multi genre question was just spawned from the diversity of the music i write, and co write, and have written in the past and to the present, what might one write in the future?

Jack of all trades master of none, again to the ear of the beholder, a subjective decision to be made by the individual listener.
I am certainly no master at any particular genre, there are a few i prefer. So common sense makes you play to your strenghs, does it not, if you are a sensible person?

Rob C, like he says...

"I think it is possible to pull a number of genres under one roof, but it also takes a lot of care with the mix. It won't work on just any mixture."

So, you work on the mixture, you do it with album running orders, step it up, take a chance, work it out.... And make it work. Damn it!!!!

(This only will apply to people who are bouncing around different genres, if not, hope you are liking this read.)

That brings me to Rachels comments, i read that and the first thought was "I'm in all 3, but 2 is the one if i had to choose". lol. What is this major labels you speak of Rachel?

Most of the music i write i would suppose is more influenced by genres, rather than strictly in the mould of one. However if one wants to compose a tune in that strict genre of choice........Or try?
Whats authentic sounding house to one cat might not be to the next, for example.

Great lot of replies, excellent material.

Thanx RML, We do have many similar perspectives.

"Although it's no advantage, seemingly. Well it is, if viewed from the "music being it's own reward" perspective, and believe me, the ability to compose music/write songs is a wonderful thing, i truly believe it's kept me sane in harder times."

It actually keeps me alive.

Everybody's' correct in their observations. There is no one truth. There are those who are, and there are those who wanna-be. Once the horses are out of the gate and running, theres' no getting them back in again. When the TRUE artist, deep down in his soul comes to know that money, power, notoriety and prestige are all superfluous to the gift of real musical talent, he/she will continue to be uniquely creative and inventive toward his music. Whatever that music style or styles might be at that time. enough for now?

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100% in agreement with you there Peter.

It disappoints me to hear big record company execs call their puppets "artists". Very patronizing.

Quote The real musiclover:

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From a modern day business perspective you are probably bang on the money, but from a purely artistic standpoint maybe not so much

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The artistic standpoint relies on the artist being able to do exactly as he/she wants and there are few areas in life where one can get away with that and expect to get paid. In order to eat one needs to compromise, and this means streamlining and specialising. My views are probably shaped by my experiences, and all I can argue is that every publishing deal and contract I have ever had has always been specific to a certain genre or project. I have yet to be signed by someone who is interested in the 'total' package and I doubt I ever will.

The 'jack of all trades' comment stands. Someone said that to me on a very high profile session once (I am a drummer but was messing around on the piano) and it stuck with me. I had been hired as the drummer and they got confused when it became clear that this was not all that I was. I was later kicked off the session and if one thing makes you focus it's hearing the track you were kicked off getting into the top 10. This is also the point at which you either give up or say 'f**k you'. I chose the latter.

But I'd still like to hear a Slipknot Jazz album ...

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Quote The Openwater:

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...the standards have dropped everywhere in music. people get away with some right old tosh. big acts, name acts. the people who are supposed to be pushing the barriers because they have access to the great studios and the great engineers, players and the time, shame on them for not taking more chances and delivering more diverse material!

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There are so many music biz myths in here I might frame this bit and stick it on the wall. It's not you Openwater, it's a general wrong idea about the biz (if you ever wondered why you're not boss of BMG this is a clue). Let me just pull these out...

"people get away with..." Exactly. That's what mass marketing is about. You make your Ford Focus exactly as good as it needs to be and no better. Burn that into your brain: mass marketing is not about quality.

"the people who are supposed to be pushing the barriers because they have access to the great studios and the great engineers" Nope, that's exactly what they're supposed NOT to do. Those expensive resources aren't going to be put at risk by failing to shift enough units. I'm not saying it's right, but that's how it works.

"shame on them for not taking more chances and delivering more diverse material" I think you're with me by this point. The diverse material IS there, but not in the mass market. I've said this a million times. If you want diversity look outside the mainstream. It's there.

And before BMW rants against the injustice of it all... I'm not saying this is the ideal world or the world I want, but it's the way the world is today.

What kind of music do you like OW? If you're into English pop/rock guitar stuff check out the Lucky Bishops for a perfect example of excellence under the radar. If quality was the point they would be big UMG artists. And check out the House of Stairs sampler (you'll find it on-line) loads of different genres, all excellent. It's all there.

And read my latest rant. There's no point hoping the big music biz is ever going to champion diverse, quality (as in musicianship or sophistication) music again. They won't.

(I haven't even been back to check the spud, was it very ugly?)

Quote Commander:

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But I'd still like to hear a Slipknot Jazz album ...

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I did catch the cult version of Grapes Of Wrath where Levi's test-marketed those tutus... the line "Hey Jeb, that's a new look isn't it?" sticks in my mind.

yeah, i know how it works, still its a shame though and shame on them. to be honest i mostly listen to my own stuff at the moment. but when i get a chance its the tubes, stranglers, stones, kate bush, neil young, glen campbell, prince, country. i will check those recommendations. i listen a lot to things that are floating around the web by old acts split up, their efforts ya know. i make you right though. the most interesting music is all sitting around the web on un/little known/forgotten artists sites and download sites. and why not. there was a time when all the most interesting stuff went out from caroline and london. i can still remember just about. ugly - like king edward

You know the whole point of Caroline was that Ronan O'Rahilly couldn't get his acts onto mainstream radio so he started his own station (and Caroline is now on the web).

And something people often miss about The Beatles is that they were all outsiders. EMI's pop label and publishing had already turned them down...

- Parlophone was George Martin's novelty/minority label, EMI's pop acts were on another label (Columbia?)
- George was in his Thirties and looking for a break, he wasn't a pop producer
- Epstein was in his Twenties and looking for a break, his own projects and acting career had flopped
- Dick James was just into publishing having been a singer, and (again) looking for a break

None of them were big nobs, they were all in dead-end or declining situations but still trying.

Epstein's demo was passed to George Martin via a bloke in EMI publishing, it was a chance contact. Epstein didn't go back to EMI publishing because he had the ache about their initial rejection. The guy who contacted Martin heard the demo when Epstein was approaching the fag end labels.

I think therein lies the secret of their hugeness. George Martin then allowed them to write their own stuff (after they turned down that Pacemakers Number One). It wouldn't have happened anywhere else. You often hear it said "The Beatles were never supposed to happen". Very true I think.

You can then follow the trail from there through through the Stones (Oldham got into music through Epstein and George H. tipped him off about the Stones), Cream (Stigwood worked with Epstein shortly before he turned up his toes) and much else in the Sixties boom. Even across to the USA where Derek Taylor was publicist at Monterey.

It was like dropping phosphorous into water.

Sadly history though.

(Check your PMs OW.)

Quote RachelAPP:

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1) If by doing a song in a genre, you mean creating a song in a textbook kind of way (copying the mainstream bands/composers of the genre), then i think the problem isn't how many genres you should write in but why don't you show your own personality?

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that is unless you have a multiple personality....
funny that no one has mentioned David Bowie in all this -
but it has to be said that he wrote some really poncy jungle.

Edited by Nikerror (11/07/05 11:02 AM)

im well behind, didnt know caroline were still going. interesting points about the mopheads. i truly believe that they were going to happen whatever. fact or mad gibberings? well my wifes car was hit by a truck last month. she took my car that day. she was pissed because if she had taken her car it wouldnt have been parked in the road. but i beleive the car was going to get hit that day anyway, wherever it was. its time was up. what is stopping slipknot popping a jazz number on their record. they have the clout to do that and the kidz would get into it cos its them in the masks. they would 'find meaning'. i really think that artists who don't do a bit of genre mixing on their records are missing the use of a strong tool in the mind bending game. which is what art is in my language. interesting coincidences though. wouldn't mind bumping into the new epstein, not backwards.

wash your mouth and listen to low

Quote The real musiclover:

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The doves, sorry... Doves. They did one dancey number, had a minor hit, shortly escaped, sorry, disappeared for a while to come back as Doves, sorry The doves, f**k it...

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Sub Sub had the dancey "hit".......

Doves was then formed by the (ex) members of Sub Sub

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Quote Nikerror:

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funny that no one has mentioned David Bowie in all this -
but it has to be said that he wrote some really poncy jungle.

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And The Laughing Gnome ...

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about Bowie though, he looks amazing. how did he do it, if i'd done all the sht he had id be crippled. would love to know what elf club he uses.

Quote The Openwater:

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about Bowie though, he looks amazing. how did he do it, if i'd done all the sht he had id be crippled. would love to know what elf club he uses.

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You're right there. He won't be needing a Nursing Gnome any time soon. Maybe he pixies food very carefully, or perhaps he practices yogre. As fairies he's concerned good Elf means he won't end up on a hospital trolley.

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top drawer, i got the giggles now - pixies food, class

"But I'd still like to hear a Slipknot Jazz album" ...

Stay tuned. It's comming to that.

"My views are probably shaped by my experiences,"

There's no doubt about that. "You are the notes you play" too. Don't short change or try to impress your clients by compromising your genuine artistic integrety. You'll in the end, be richer for it, have no regrets and have sacrificed nothing.

As for jack -of-all-trades, My impression is, do exactly what your passions dictate in music and nothing else.

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