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Spyder
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Joined: 28/01/04
Posts: 444
Loc: Cambridge, UK
vocals and feedback - hyper?
      #163546 - 04/08/05 08:34 AM
HI folks,
last night my band did a gig which went well, but the sound man was struggling to get enough vocal level without getting feedback. Now I know there are alot of techniques to try to stop the feedback, but I was thinking about mics in particular. The soundman used an SM58 on the vocals. Our female singer is not a belter and uses a lot of subtlty in her voice. Would having a hyper-cardoid mic help to get more level on the vocals. I think Audix do some nice ones. We could consider buying these and using them for our gigs. Any thoughts? Would the difference be negligable next to all the other factors which should be sorted?

--------------------
www.wildhope.com - pike in a lilypond


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10776
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #163598 - 04/08/05 10:48 AM
The Audix OM7 is great for quiet female vocals - it was the Cranes' sound engineer who first introduced me to Audix mics and he was raving about the OM7. If you've ever heard the Cranes you'll realise why. The OM5 is good too.

The only thing with these mics is that you need a PA with a reasonably good top end to make the most of these mics because the upper mid-range is more recessed than the SM58.

Cheers.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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Spyder
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Joined: 28/01/04
Posts: 444
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #163607 - 04/08/05 11:02 AM
Thanks James. I remember seeing the Cranes many years ago. That sound is certainly in the right direction. I'll have a look at those Audix mics then.

--------------------
www.wildhope.com - pike in a lilypond


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4376
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #163814 - 04/08/05 06:55 PM
Just remember with the hypercardioids - don't point the rear of the mic directly at the monitors, as there is a small pickup lobe pointing backwards.

G

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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Spyder
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Joined: 28/01/04
Posts: 444
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #164009 - 05/08/05 08:21 AM
Thanks Guy, I'll remember that.

--------------------
www.wildhope.com - pike in a lilypond


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--
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Joined: 29/05/03
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Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #164229 - 05/08/05 05:46 PM
Quote:

Just remember with the hypercardioids - don't point the rear of the mic directly at the monitors, as there is a small pickup lobe pointing backwards.




And also remember with hypercardioids - don't point the front of the mic directly at the monitors, as there is an even bigger lobe pointing forwards.

I'll get my coat.


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Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #164385 - 06/08/05 08:20 AM
Now trying to redeem myself here. Hypercardoids have a much tighter pickup pattern than standard cardoids (though just how tight depends on the mic) and you need a much more disciplined mic technique to use one successfully compared to a cardoid.

If the singer tends to point the mic vaguely in the general direction of her mouth and wave it around as part of her performance, then you will get large variations in volume. If she sings straight into it at a fairly constant distance (except when backing off a bit when singing very loud) then you'll be fine.

And always remember that if the singer holds the mic right by the basket or cups her hand round the bottom of the basket, then you are effectively turning the mic into an omni by preventing the sound waves from reaching the back of the capsule and thus far more prone to feedback. This goes for both cardoids and hypercardoids.


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Spyder
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Joined: 28/01/04
Posts: 444
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #164403 - 06/08/05 10:12 AM
Thanks for the tips Wonkey W. Our singer plays acoustic too so doesn't flouncy around with the mic and is pretty good at staying on mic. If we have our own OM7 it will be used in rehearsals too, so she will be able to get used to the pick-up pattern.

What I have found out though, is that the OM7 has a built in attenuator as its meant for very loud bands on stage. Will a typical desk be struggling for gain? I think the OM5 has the same sort of pattern with out the attenuation. Should I be going for this? Or is the OM7 even tighter and best feedback/vocal level mic out of the audix range?

Anyone for the EV 767? Senn E945? Beyer opus 69?
or even Rode S1?

--------------------
www.wildhope.com - pike in a lilypond


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Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #164629 - 07/08/05 04:35 PM
Don't think the OM7 is the right mic for a quiet singer. OM 5 or 6 would be better.

It's mainly the pickup pattern that will determine the anti-feedback chracteristics of a mic. Paying more will get you a nicer sounding mic but you may still have feedback problems in certain circumstances.

I've got an EV767 which is a very nice sounding mic. It's the original version which has a bass roll-off switch. the latest one is the EV767a which doesn't have this but I don't know what else changed. It 'super cardoid' pattern which is not quite as tight as a hyper but a bit more forgiving on positioning compared to my Senn E855 for which you need to be right in front of the mic for it to work.

How many mics have you got on stage in total? How much foldback? My 12-piece band has 4 vocal mics and 5 instrument mics open all the time (7 if we put something on the kick and snare) and we can usually get pretty loud without feedback occuring.


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Spyder
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Joined: 28/01/04
Posts: 444
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #164730 - 07/08/05 10:03 PM
Hi WW. We are visiting local pub sized music venues. We have two vocalists, one drums and the lead singer plays electro-acoustic too. Last week we had mics on snare, kick, guitar amp, backing vox and lead vox, i.e. 5 mics in all. Two monitors, positioned for the two singers.
Next week we will be setting up our own PA in a pub. So not a complex setup by any means. Two monitors again for the two singers.

--------------------
www.wildhope.com - pike in a lilypond


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10776
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #164874 - 08/08/05 11:54 AM
I tried the OM7 side by side with an OM5 and didn't notice a major difference in sensitivity - maybe it is just designed to handle a higher sound pressure level. We chose the OM5 for my wife's band because it suited her voice better than the OM7 but all voices are different so you really need to try a few alternatives. We actually have as many problems with acoustic guitar feedback as with vocal feedback now.

Cheers.

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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SonicOddity



Joined: 25/08/04
Posts: 29
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #168094 - 16/08/05 11:02 AM
Just throwing in the obvious point here. If the sound's ok you don't necessarily have to change the mic. One good thing to try out is to route the vocs to group in addition to the actual vocal channel. And the group to master of course. You don't need to raise the gain (and be more prone to feedback) but still get some more volume.

Also I've noticed people tend to use excessive compression on live vocals when there's no need for it. It's so often that I see ratios of 10:1 with threshold of -15, no compensation and tech-hippie scratching his head wonderin' where's the vocals. In those leds blinking...

Also get some parametric EQ on those monitors and apply sort of comb-filtering on feedbacking freq's (f.ex. 200,400,800,1600,3200,6400 so on..). Should help if artists on stage can cope with it.

And yes: OM-series number 5 and 7 are great. So upgrade is always an upgrade.

Edited by SonicOddity (16/08/05 11:04 AM)


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Spyder
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Joined: 28/01/04
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Loc: Cambridge, UK
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #168548 - 17/08/05 06:22 AM
Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm borrowing an OM5 & 7 this weekend for a gig so I can try them out in anger. I'll let you know how we get on.

--------------------
www.wildhope.com - pike in a lilypond


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Guy Johnson



Joined: 02/05/03
Posts: 4376
Loc: North Pembrokeshire
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #168693 - 17/08/05 11:45 AM
" good thing to try out is to route the vocs to group in addition to the actual vocal channel. And the group to master of course. You don't need to raise the gain (and be more prone to feedback) but still get some more volume. "

?? You'll still get feedback in the PA if the gain (and therefore volume) is pushed too much, whether it's done by pushing just one fader, or more!

G

--------------------
Facebok Page for acoustic music PA-ing in smaller venues


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SonicOddity



Joined: 25/08/04
Posts: 29
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #168720 - 17/08/05 12:24 PM
Depends what is feedbacking. If you run your monitors from aux sends of FOH then its good idea to keep the gain at lower settings and push the PA harder after the aux send. IMO the gain is the crucial thing here. Assuming that the PA and the monitor system is set up correctly. Anyway, this is as far as I know, very used trick to get vocals up. I've even seen some smaller venues with permanent strips on their group 2 saying "voc boost" . Try it. Works fine 4 out of 6.

By the way another problem might be too little gain-too small amps. Its usually good practice (depending on the desk) to drive the single channels gain to somewhere around +6 or so. Hell, those old Soundcraft xxxB-consoles sounded good only when the channels were peaking with full gain. No need for compressor there....

--------------------
I'm improvising here... in a foreign language...

Edited by SonicOddity (17/08/05 12:29 PM)


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Nathan



Joined: 13/09/04
Posts: 1891
Loc: lincolnshire government experi...
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #169047 - 17/08/05 11:58 PM
when SEs refer to "the gain", they generally mean the amplification/attenuation of the path in question. i think someone was referring to the gain control or gain knob there

--------------------
planet nine
lincoln, uk.


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SonicOddity



Joined: 25/08/04
Posts: 29
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Re: vocals and feedback - hyper? new [Re: Spyder]
      #169085 - 18/08/05 04:28 AM
It's difficult to get understood when writing in foreign language. Anyway, when I say gain, I mean usually the active part of the structure which, I suppose, is the gain knob. I always see fader as "less significant" part of the signal path.Might be wrong here but still get my gigs done without feedback and get more clients and keeping the old ones every now and then

What I meant when talking about the groups:Back off the gain knob of the vocal channel a bit and route the vocals to group in addition to the channel.

--------------------
I'm improvising here... in a foreign language...

Edited by SonicOddity (18/08/05 04:31 AM)


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