Hi there

A friend of mine wants a mixer with at least 16 channels (i guess possibly 12) but with full parametric EQ on each channel, not semi parametric, if possible.

His budget it like £450-750, but 750 is truely tops.

I had a quick look around, but this type of thing really isn't my bag, i just made the jump to mixerless, and i wouldn't have it any other way. He's a real analogue head, though.

Any recommendations would be good.

Thanks

Edd

Might get something with 2 swept mids, but the top and bottom are likely to be shelving EQs at that price point - is this what you mean by "semi parametric"?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

he would like control of the entire range, and control of the Q threshold value

the ones i've/he's seen seem to be mid sweepable only

many thanks

he's looking at old and knackered territory then... unless he gets really really lucky... maybe try looking for old DDA desks? (0Vu always seems to know where there's one... but not usually in this price range)

and even then he'll be lucky... there's VERY little with Q as well as sweep at that price range, and almost certainly not 16 channels of it.

I'm all in favour of the plan, and I honestly do not enjoy being the harbinger of bad news, but sadly that seems to be my lot...

sorry...

Max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Someone will prove me wrong but I'd say he's got no chance. He might get this on a digital mixer e.g. a used Yamaha O1V but I don't know of any analogue desk offering this.

Put it in perspective: your guy wants 16 decent fully parametric EQs for about £40 each, with the rest of the desk thrown in for free. It ain't going to happen (or not without some serious compromises on quality).

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

ok cool, thanks guys. could you tell me what you think his options are?

would that behringer digital mixer (or any digital mixer) be useful for him? would they have it, in that price range?

i don't really know much about all this lark

thanks

Hi. I've used Mackie boards alot, specifically the 8-bus analog. I liked the eq's for their usability, they sounded musical to me. Now Mackie has the new Onyx 1640. I have not heard it. But it DOES have frequency sweepable low mid AND hi mids, as well as fixed low and hi bands. This might be a good bet if it sounds right to your ears. I'm in america, and googling got me an average price of $1300 USD but obviously haggling lowers it. The British pound is now about 1.8 USD so I figured this is at the top of your range.
Good luck. Dan
PS some people are also attracted to the Firewire option, which seems like a not-too costly way to pipe direct outs to a computer, if you don't already have an audio interface.

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Gear list: If you can't find it, grind it

Edited by MadManDan (16/08/05 11:06 PM)

Dan

, you missed the central point.... the chap wanted PROPER parametric EQ....with the Q bandwidth control as well as the swept frequency selection not just ordinary swept Mids.

otherwise we could easily point him at dozens of small format desks......

Max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

The DDA CS12M comes with 4 band EQ but the swept mids have a fixed Q of 1.4... Still a nice desk though...

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Google less; read more!

Quote Max The Mac:

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Dan you missed the central point....

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The missus seems to think that about me sometimes

Quote Max The Mac:

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the chap wanted PROPER parametric EQ....with the Q bandwidth control as well as the swept frequency selection not just ordinary swept Mids.
otherwise we could easily point him at dozens of small format desks...... Max

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True, but I just figured it wasn't going to happen at his price range ---- bandwidth control?
I guess what I'm saying is that there are a million ways to skin a cat, right?
Someone who is sophisticated enough to appreciate adjustable bandwidth will either
1.Pony up the dough and get a proper console or
2.Use what's available to still get, if s/he puts their head to it, amazing results. Something somewhere has to give. So.....
Let your intelligence make up for your wallet. DAn

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Gear list: If you can't find it, grind it

Quote The Beatsmith:

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ok cool, thanks guys. could you tell me what you think his options are?

would that behringer digital mixer (or any digital mixer) be useful for him? would they have it, in that price range?

i don't really know much about all this lark

thanks

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For this kind of budget and channel count it's rather hopeless I'm afraid. Tell him to go for a second hand Ghost or a second hand Raindirk module *if* he finds a sucker who sells his Raindirk that cheap, he he.

Quote archdake mkII:

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Quote The Beatsmith:

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ok cool, thanks guys. could you tell me what you think his options are?

would that behringer digital mixer (or any digital mixer) be useful for him? would they have it, in that price range?

i don't really know much about all this lark

thanks

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For this kind of budget and channel count it's rather hopeless I'm afraid. Tell him to go for a second hand Ghost or a second hand Raindirk module *if* he finds a sucker who sells his Raindirk that cheap, he he.

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It would be nice but the only guy who ever seems to have any Raindirk is that Audiojunkie guy who sells "buy it now" on eBay and he always charges top dollar for second hand or refurbished. KMR are the main UK stockist, I believe.

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Google less; read more!

fair enuff Dan.... just trying to save you wasted effort...

regards Raindirk.


one could always ask Cyril.

http://www.lntech.nildram.co.uk/secondhand.html

but i wouldn't hold my breath on this budget.. add at least one zero and you're talking....

Max

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote:

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Max the Mac:
maybe try looking for old DDA desks? (0Vu always seems to know where there's one... but not usually in this price range)

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Probably because they're cluttering up my house You might get a small Interface or, if you can find one, a baby frame (12:2) Q, S, or D Series but none has parametric EQ.

Quote:

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and even then he'll be lucky... there's VERY little with Q as well as sweep at that price range, and almost certainly not 16 channels of it.

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Yep - You won't get any 16 channel DDA with fully parametric EQ for anything like that kind of money. Compratively few DDAs have parametric EQ; most have fixed frequency shelving HF and LF with two swept mids and a fixed frequency HPF. Some add a switchable frequency for the shelving sections. A few of the higher end PA desks and the very top end recording consoles have a bit more flexibility with maybe switched Q on the mids, but only the top few consoles have 4 band parametric EQs. I'd have to look up my notes to see which consoles have the full monty but I remember that the CS3 has a three band EQ with a parametric mid and fixed frequency HF/LF shelving and HPF and no EQ in/out switch! In any case, nothing from the DDA range that has a parametric is going to get anywhere near the budget.

Quote:

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Max the Mac:

one could always ask Cyril.

http://www.lntech.nildram.co.uk/secondhand.html

but i wouldn't hold my breath on this budget.. add at least one zero and you're talking....

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Definitely not worth holding your breath - you're going to have to add a lot more than a zero to buy that LN3 I've not asked Cyril but knowing what it costs new I don't think you'll see much, if any, change out of about £30,000. It is a stunningly good console though; sonically it's Neve/API territory and ergonomically it's a joy to use. I guess that with Raindirk, you get what you pay for (they're actually excellent value and hold their price really well but they're not going to be the answer in this case).

Adding a zero might get you something from Raindirk's new rackmount range but I very much doubt it'll get you a whole mixer.

Raindirk's rackmount gear includes several interesting new products, one of which is a little rackmounting 16:2 mixer would probably meet the spec beautifully - sweepable shelving HF and LF, two parametric mids and a sweepable HPF



Unfortunately, I doubt that the budget will get more than a channel or two of it.

(My favourite new Raindirk rackmount box is the 3U rackmount 24 channel mic pre unit. )


As far as I know, without buying something really ancient which will be a maintenance nightmare, the only way you're going to get 16 channel mixer which includes a four band EQ with parametric mids, at a price anywhere near the available budget, is to buy some kind of used digital console. Even then, the price is going to make it difficult. I've seen old Yamaha DMC1000s going at prices which might make them an option; with the right software (not the standard stuff) they will work as a 16:2 and have very comprehensive (4x parametric or HF/LF shelf+ 2x parametric-switchable per channel) EQ, moving fader automation and built in FX processors. They sound pretty good too. However, they have very little analogue i/o and getting decent converters for them will really bump up the price.

Quote The Beatsmith:

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ok cool, thanks guys. could you tell me what you think his options are?

would that behringer digital mixer (or any digital mixer) be useful for him? would they have it, in that price range?

i don't really know much about all this lark

thanks

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The Behringer DDX 3216 is a good desk for the money and it has fully parametric EQ but it's a digital beast and it only operates at 44.1/48. If your mate wants analogue, chances are he won't be happy with this. Personally I think the EQ sounds pretty good on the Behringer, I prefer it to the cubase mixer. But it isn't on a par with a nice analogue EQ.

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need to get rid of this stupid sig...

Quote 0VU:

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Quote:

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Max the Mac:
maybe try looking for old DDA desks? (0Vu always seems to know where there's one... but not usually in this price range)

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Probably because they're cluttering up my house You might get a small Interface or, if you can find one, a baby frame (12:2) Q, S, or D Series but none has parametric EQ.

Quote:

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and even then he'll be lucky... there's VERY little with Q as well as sweep at that price range, and almost certainly not 16 channels of it.

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Yep - You won't get any 16 channel DDA with fully parametric EQ for anything like that kind of money. Compratively few DDAs have parametric EQ; most have fixed frequency shelving HF and LF with two swept mids and a fixed frequency HPF. Some add a switchable frequency for the shelving sections. A few of the higher end PA desks and the very top end recording consoles have a bit more flexibility with maybe switched Q on the mids, but only the top few consoles have 4 band parametric EQs. I'd have to look up my notes to see which consoles have the full monty but I remember that the CS3 has a three band EQ with a parametric mid and fixed frequency HF/LF shelving and HPF and no EQ in/out switch! In any case, nothing from the DDA range that has a parametric is going to get anywhere near the budget.

Quote:

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Max the Mac:

one could always ask Cyril.

http://www.lntech.nildram.co.uk/secondhand.html

but i wouldn't hold my breath on this budget.. add at least one zero and you're talking....

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Definitely not worth holding your breath - you're going to have to add a lot more than a zero to buy that LN3 I've not asked Cyril but knowing what it costs new I don't think you'll see much, if any, change out of about £30,000. It is a stunningly good console though; sonically it's Neve/API territory and ergonomically it's a joy to use. I guess that with Raindirk, you get what you pay for (they're actually excellent value and hold their price really well but they're not going to be the answer in this case).

Adding a zero might get you something from Raindirk's new rackmount range but I very much doubt it'll get you a whole mixer.

Raindirk's rackmount gear includes several interesting new products, one of which is a little rackmounting 16:2 mixer would probably meet the spec beautifully - sweepable shelving HF and LF, two parametric mids and a sweepable HPF



Unfortunately, I doubt that the budget will get more than a channel or two of it.

(My favourite new Raindirk rackmount box is the 3U rackmount 24 channel mic pre unit. )


As far as I know, without buying something really ancient which will be a maintenance nightmare, the only way you're going to get 16 channel mixer which includes a four band EQ with parametric mids, at a price anywhere near the available budget, is to buy some kind of used digital console. Even then, the price is going to make it difficult. I've seen old Yamaha DMC1000s going at prices which might make them an option; with the right software (not the standard stuff) they will work as a 16:2 and have very comprehensive (4x parametric or HF/LF shelf+ 2x parametric-switchable per channel) EQ, moving fader automation and built in FX processors. They sound pretty good too. However, they have very little analogue i/o and getting decent converters for them will really bump up the price.

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I've been drooling over the Raindirk rackmount desk for some time...

Ahh well! Dream on!

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Google less; read more!

thanks guys. i'll let him know.

what about the behringer, or a yamaha 01v?

i think the EQ is more important to him that it actually being analogue. but anyway. would the 01V do what he wants?

Quote The Beatsmith:

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thanks guys. i'll let him know.

what about the behringer, or a yamaha 01v?

i think the EQ is more important to him that it actually being analogue. but anyway. would the 01V do what he wants?

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You might try a Soundcraft 328XD second hand... they're digital but have built in Lexicon FX and the fully Parametric 3 band EQ is designed by Soundcraft who are mainly an analogue console manufacturer. There's an as new in box one going here for £1,400 but a second hand one should come in at alot less than that.

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Google less; read more!

Hi, please don't go anywhere near Behringer, if you don't want to go grey over night.
Give Don Larking a ring, he has a fab range of mixers, maybe a little bit more than you want to pay, but give him a try, he may be able to suggest something.
I used to have a Hill 24-4-2 with full para on every channel, it cost me £300, you can get a lot if you shop around for older gear, try some of the older Soundcraft mixers, the 200 series 16-4-2, they may fit the bill, or other mixers form the same period.

take care,

Tony.

Of course I was pulling your leg about the Raindirks. Max's mention of 0VU reminded me of a conversation we had about Raindirks a while ago and thus my comment, he he.

Quote The Beatsmith:

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thanks guys. i'll let him know.

what about the behringer, or a yamaha 01v?

i think the EQ is more important to him that it actually being analogue. but anyway. would the 01V do what he wants?

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Well as I said, the behringer DDX3216 is a nice desk, although the analogue bits go noisy pretty quickly. I prefer it to the 01V... but although both these desks have the EQ facilities you're after I don't think they'll deliver the goods. They're digital after all and limited to 44.1/48k sample rates

Its an interesting thread, guys, but perhaps we should go back to the top and ask why on earth this guy feels he must have 16 channels of fully parameteric EQ with Q/bandwidth controls on everything. I can't imagine any situation when that degree of controllability is needed.

The odd fully parametric channel is handy occasionally, perhaps, to sort out the odd troublesome source, but most of us can manage perfectly well without Q controls everywhere.

It does make me wonder what's going on here....

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I'd agree with Hugh here - My AW4416 (slightly different beast, but the point remains) has 4 band, fully parametric EQ on each channel. I rarely feel the need for it.

Of course, when EQ'ing I take care to choose an appropriate 'Q' rather than leaving it at the (very broad-band) default; but having fixed Q (as on most analogue desks) would be unlikely to present a big problem.

Regards,

Mike

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www.ehsound.co.uk - Live Sound Hire & Services

If he's coming from software I reckon it makes sense. He just wants what he's used to...

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Signature (up to 200 characters). You may use UBBCode in your signature

Hugh, as usual, gets straight to the point.

Now I think about it, none of my analogue desks (and I have a few ) have parametric eq on every channel. In fact, none of them have any parametric eq in the channels; a couple have separate parametric eq modules which may be inserted into the channels (but nowhere near enough for every channel); most have sweepable mids and shelving HF/LF; some have no EQ at all.

I've got a handful of outboard parametric eqs which can be patched into insert points as necessary but I rarely feel the need. The only time I really use parametric eq is on stereo mixes for "mastering" (and I use the term loosely) or when tracking single instruments when it'd probably be via outboard channel strips. I guess I look upon them more as corrective rather than creative - I'd prefer to change/move the mic or muck about with absorbers/diffusers/other acoustic tweaks. Parametric eq comes in when you've done all the above and tried all the mics but still need fine control of detail or when you want to make huge changes to precise areas; there's usually a better way to do it but if your options are limited, a good parametric can work wonders. (A bad one isn't worth the effort of plugging in!)

From a recording point of view, I find parametrics too slow to use a lot of. They give so many possibilities that it's easy to get sidetracked and waste time playing with them when you'd be better off fixing a problem with a mic move/change or some other approach; with a simpler eq it either works or it doesn't and you find out quickly. Some of my favourite eqs give a selection of fixed frequencies with fixed Q and the only variables are which of, say, 5 frequencies you tweak and by how much. I seem to get better results with them than with really tweaky parametrics. Perhaps because they force me to put in more effort on the micing and balancing

Has this guy used a desk with a nice analogue eq? A well designed eq should do just what you want in a nice musical way without the need for Q control.

On the whole I find I don't miss the lack of control. As 0VU says it's a blessing you don't have so much to tweak. When I use a friend's big A&H PA desk I find I waste time trying to fix things with EQ when it's trying to polish a turd again.

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need to get rid of this stupid sig...

My first mixer had 4 fixed bands of eq. 80% of the time I'll still use those same frequencies on whatever mixer I'm using nowadays. A simple equaliser done well goes a long way.

Cheers.

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

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Its an interesting thread, guys, but perhaps we should go back to the top and ask why on earth this guy feels he must have 16 channels of fully parameteric EQ with Q/bandwidth controls on everything.

It does make me wonder what's going on here....

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Maybe he thinks that Q will give him the X factor?