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Studio Support Gnome
Not so Miserable Git


Joined: 22/07/03
Posts: 9386
Loc: UK *but works all over the pl...
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #209055 - 10/11/05 09:44 AM
Quote grAInger:

DESIGN - though my original statement was a bit dogmatic - there is really only one way to make any particular circuit because electronics only works one way, but i know there are a lot of subtleties in power supply design and pcb construction. take a fuzz box for instance all of them are based on forcing a signal through a diode. i dont see how behringer can be slated for copying such a design, when you have people on ebay selling their so called 'boutique' designs for 50 quid using the "same circuit that jimmy hendrix used" with 50 pence worth of components in it !!! - if you admit theres only one way to make a crap pre amp how many ways do you think there is to make a good one ?




Ignoring all the other bits for a moment....

sorry but that's complete and utter bollox

seriously, sorry, it's nothing personal , but grAInger, it's plainly obvious you neither have any depth of understanding of that field, nor the background to do so.

there's almost infinite ways to create a circuit to do a specific job.

it's the differences between them in terms of both general topology and specific detail that gives each one it's unique tonal qualities....

there's different ways of using otherwise identical active devices that yield different results.

for as very loose example,

the MOTU 192HD, the Digidesign HD192, the EMU 1812M and (if memory serves me correctly) focusrite saffire all use the same AD/DA conversion chips.

however, they all have different sonic properties due to the entirely different surrounding circuitry... and it's NOT just the PSU./

they're all acknowledged as being good, within their market segment, but anyone thinking the EMU and Saffire sound exactly the same as the MOTU or Digidesign, is going to be somewhat disappointed . (although it's probably fair to say the Saffire performs above the expected level given it's street price... possibly thanks to the marriage of superb mic pre amps with reasonable converters)

and the MOTU doesn't sound EXACTLY like the Digidesign device either.... (although it's closer than either of the other two)

the same idea is also still true of distortion pedals.... 5 pedals using the same active element can , and will sound different, 5 ways , unless they're exact carbon copies.... and even then, component tolerances can result in different sounding units....

And there are fundamentally different topology ideas for generating a distorted signal... and by no means do all of them involve a diode as the core element.........


hell even at the most basic level, there's almost infinite ways of achieving a given resistance, capacitance or impedance in a single circuit element, never mind anything else...

(think about series and parallel components, just for a moment.... )

there's more to it, but I wanted to simply point out your false premise . in case you weren't aware that it was a fundamental flaw in your thinking....



Best regards

Max

--------------------
Don't get the hump when i tell you it's going to be expensive, it's not my fault , you picked the site/building/room â


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #209098 - 10/11/05 10:58 AM
I must say, I do not often speak out loud when reading postings here or elsewhere, but when I read that bit about fuzz boxes and said "What a load of bollocks!" in a clear voice and my wife thought I was calling her.

The trouble here is that Grainger has decided that he is the 'Advocate Royal' for cheap kit when he is obviously not qualified to speak on this topic.

This is a pity because there is an argument to be made for products that are built at the very lowest price possible. I personally do not agree with that argument, but it is there. Grainger is not the person to make that argument. It would be nice to have someone with a knowledge of the subject make that argument.

I too am not the person to hold impromptu seminars on mixer design or even fuzz boxes. I built my first fuzz box using a whisker diode when I was 15 and it sounded so poor that I scrapped the idea and tried something else. I have built mic pres, but only copies of other people's designs. Right now I am working on an old East German mixer that I hope to convert into a 5.1 compressor and trust me, it is a million years from any design you have ever seen. The brilliance of the design allows you to put anything, mic, line, guitar into the one input and it deals with it perfectly. It is completely unbalanced and not a transistor in sight.

So you see, even I, with my limited knowledge of mixing desk design, know that there are many ways to build a mic pre. But yes all the nasty cheap stuff (fuzz box or mixer) is built more or less in the same way.

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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steveman



Joined: 17/03/02
Posts: 1142
Loc: London - UK
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #209110 - 10/11/05 11:32 AM
Quote:

CHOICE - just because a tesco is a big smelly dehumanised place doesnt mean they dont have masses more choice than any little corner shop and generally at a better price (the point about bread is daft, when i go to my corner shop their bread is always stale 'happy shopper' stuff at 4 times the price of tesco, and the milk is always sour)




I think the comparison was between dedicated bakers, butchers, greengrocers etc. rather than generic corner shops. There used to be all these different traders in one row of shops, still pretty convenient. You're right that corner shops as thwy now exist don't offer anything better than the supermarkets, but how can they? The supermarkets control the market for food in this country (despite what the monopolies & mergers commission may say).

I'd disagree about the choice too, they may have 1000's of lines but within each line you've often only a choice between the supermarket's own brand, and 1 other.
I'm lucky, I live in an affluent area, I've a choice of 3 supermarkets (1 of which is Tesco where I refuse to shop), 2 butchers and a couple of proper bakeries - no fishmonger sadly. This choice wouldn't exist in poorer areas though.

Re price, I've seen a number of comparisons where the supermarkets were all more expensive compared to the local greengrocer etc. based on a typical basket of shopping.


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: steveman]
      #209130 - 10/11/05 11:53 AM
Quote:

CHOICE - just because a tesco is a big smelly dehumanised place doesnt mean they dont have masses more choice than any little corner shop and generally at a better price (the point about bread is daft, when i go to my corner shop their bread is always stale 'happy shopper' stuff at 4 times the price of tesco, and the milk is always sour) - the choice in musical gear is enormous nowadays, i cant see it getting less either at any price point.




The above is true because your corner shop is part of a wholesale chain that buys its goods from the same sources as Tesco. You have been denied choice by the OEM market.

When I was a boy, you could buy all kinds of different olive oil and the different oils came from different places. Spain, Italy, Greece, each looked and tasted different. Today, if you go to Tesco and look at the olive oil shelves, you will see at least twelve different oils ranging in price from £3 to £12 a bottle.

Some have got garlic in them, some have a sprig of thyme in them. But they all come from the same company in Seville. I think they are called Urzante or something like that. All twelve use the same bulk oil and it is the same stuff as is in the bottles at Aldi, Lidl, Asda and of course your corner shop. This one company produces oils at three different quality levels and that's it.

You have been denied choice.

The same is happening with microphones. If you buy a cheap microphone, you stand a very good chance of getting a microphone built in one factory in Shanghai. It may say Fame, Behringer, Audio Technica or whatever on the outside and the housing may be different, but inside is one of a small range of capsules that they produce. They will build then for you with your name on the front and even with a special design just for you. And you don't even have to order huge numbers to get this service. A few hundred units will get your own special brand of microphones in your own design of housing and box into production.

But inside the new Grainger Mics from Grainger Audio will be the same capsules as inside all the other mics they produce. The Grainger Groove-100 may look different, but it will sound exactly the same as the Behringer B1.

Old established names are waking up to the fact that they are loosing market share to the ultra cheap market, so sadly they find themselves having to do the same. It's called the OEM market and when the customer thinks that he is going up-market by buying something slightly better (more expensive and an old, established brand) he finds that the better mic sounds just the same as the cheap mic. That is because they may come from the same factory outside Shanghai.

You have been denied choice.

And as for what Steveman says about prices, the one thing that shocks one when one comes from the US or mainland Europe is how grossly inflated Tesco's prices are.

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www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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Squarepeg



Joined: 03/09/04
Posts: 394
Loc: Somerset, UK
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #209134 - 10/11/05 11:58 AM
Quote The Byre:


I could go on with every foodstuff on the shelves of the big three, from flour to butter, from cheese to chocolate.






Waitrose is a little bit better. They do sell live seafood. Their bread is ok though I still perfer to make my own.

They are not trying to drive shareholder value in the traditional way.


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Matcher



Joined: 11/05/05
Posts: 445
Loc: Finland
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Squarepeg]
      #209181 - 10/11/05 01:12 PM
Have you guys ever been to China? If you have, you know what's the real price for all the cheap stuff we buy.


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Squarepeg



Joined: 03/09/04
Posts: 394
Loc: Somerset, UK
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Matcher]
      #209231 - 10/11/05 02:47 PM
I have been to China and even to a few factories out there. However production cost is only one part of the overall price equation.


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Matcher



Joined: 11/05/05
Posts: 445
Loc: Finland
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Squarepeg]
      #209259 - 10/11/05 03:28 PM
That's true but it's a part big enough to move a lot of production lines there though the components remain the same. It's just ****ed up how people are treated there. Seeing pictures of the living conditions of many workers wouldn't make for a good advertisement for the western companies.


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
SOS Technical Editor


Joined: 25/07/03
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Matcher]
      #209293 - 10/11/05 04:47 PM
Quote Matcher:

Seeing pictures of the living conditions of many workers wouldn't make for a good advertisement for the western companies.




I agree, but what can they do? They all want to stay in business, so as soon as one competitor finds a way of producing products more cheaply (by moving production to China, say), then the others all pretty much have to do the same to remain competitive and retain their market share.

In an ideal world, the consumers would have the integrity to refrain from buying products made in Chinese sweatshops (although I must say that not all factories are like that -- some are more comparable to western employment standards)... but at then end of the day a large part of the buying public seems to want the cheapest thing going (free in the case of software!), and they simply dont see or understand the longer term consequences.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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Matcher



Joined: 11/05/05
Posts: 445
Loc: Finland
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #209475 - 10/11/05 10:12 PM
Like they say in the ghetto, I feel you man.

Especially with relatively poor people this is a difficult issue because they are the ones who get most out of this because the cheapest gets cheaper. On the other hand one might have less money because of a lost job at the factory which moved abroad. Hopefully for example China's situation will get better as the country is starting to open up. I still can't believe how the olympics can be held there, but that's enough of that. I guess all this leads to world economics and the politics behind it and voting is our best shot at getting things right, unless one has money to direct more votes to the desired way. The current situation should please most of the people, although we've seen many demonstrations at the G8 meetings etc which speak their own language. I hope the other side of the China- phenomenon becomes more known, so the mainstream middle- class there could afford to have some of the luxury that most of us often take for granted.


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Steve Hill
member


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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Matcher]
      #209487 - 10/11/05 10:35 PM
There's an almost colonial arrogance about rich Westerners lecturing China on working conditions. They have one of the fastest growth rates in the world and are making massive strides dragging themselves out of poverty (poverty in China is retreating faster than in any other large country in the world). They are prepared to compete with capitalists at their own game and succeed, massively.

The working conditions at say SE Electronics are fantastic by "normal" Chinese standards, as is the pay.

What do you want to do? Fire them all and send them back to subsistence farming, and a real risk of death by famine if the crops fail?

(And yes, for the record, I agree China's industrialisation carries some environmental costs which they might usefully pay more attention to!)

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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Matcher



Joined: 11/05/05
Posts: 445
Loc: Finland
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #209496 - 10/11/05 11:04 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

There's an almost colonial arrogance about rich Westerners lecturing China on working conditions. They have one of the fastest growth rates in the world and are making massive strides dragging themselves out of poverty (poverty in China is retreating faster than in any other large country in the world). They are prepared to compete with capitalists at their own game and succeed, massively.




I'm sure that the more you dig into this subject the more carefully you chose your words. These massive strides are done with the cost of the people's properties. The goverment there is rotten almost all the way, huge amounts of money end up to the accounts of the financial elite. I can't remember the exact numbers but tens of billion of dollars that are suppposed to go for health care and basic stuff has been disappearing for years and years. A normal one parent family can't afford to put children to school or to have a health care because of that. Some of the people there are desperate and commit suicides and some try to complain through the official route but the system is so corrupted that the complainments are never handled. The core of the government tries to handle the situation but with very few results. Some people have been beaten up in the courtroom and driven to distant places so they won't be in the central China to cause problems.

I just read an article from the biggest newspaper in Finland and watched a BBC documentary about China's situation and I went there about half a year ago, and that's what I have to say. And I'm not rich


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The real musiclover



Joined: 01/09/04
Posts: 4357
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #209546 - 11/11/05 03:38 AM
Quote grAInger:


i am massively in favour of cheap gear (hand in hand with the good stuff) because as far as i can see the only real problems nowadays all come down to a collective lack of imagination. maybe something to do with tv or whatever, but at least the more people who get the chance to have a go, the more people who shouldnt really have this stuff, the more chance statistically that we will get something really new ... i think there is much more interesting music about now than ever and maybe some of this IS down to cheap gear opening up the playing field

monitors for a fiver a mic for a tenner ? .. yes please

grainger





Nothing too wrong with that statement.

Politicising the production of music? No ta, i'd rather be getting on and making some and having fun doing so.

Whatever recording gear is to hand.


Secret government agencies use Behringer, at least according to the racks in the Bourne identity the other night. At least it all looked like shiny silver Behringer! That's as political as i like to get.


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coool



Joined: 16/09/04
Posts: 556
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: The Byre]
      #209551 - 11/11/05 05:57 AM
cor ... good thread. i was being careful NOT to bring this down to politics, none of us really know what its like to be chinese so i think its best to leave that out of it. maybe we can come back to that discussion in 20 years time when china has bought the western world for a fiver !!! (only 50 years (or even less) ago most of us were slaves in the same sort of factories)

max and byre, you are right im not the one to explain electronics i dont have the depth of understanding, i definately dont take it personal dont worry about that (its just a forum, we are not real people) .. but as far as i know most preamps are made with mass produced ic's (the ones in my joe meek use burr and brown) i presume the ics only work with particular values of components around them ? .. thats not copying, thats engineering .. (max explain simply ONE other 'topology' for making a fuzz box (not an overdrive overloading a preamp, or some digital device) which doesnt involve a diode, please) .. (byre, do you always speak to yr missus like that then ?)

the supermarket discussion is taking us nowhere either, those of you with cosy memories of real bread and fish obviously dont live near one of the unhygienic, thieving, 'open all hours' corner shops most of us happily abandoned when the out of town superstores opened ... as for choice, which corner shop ever gave you the chance to buy fair trade coffee or organic potatoes, in MOST of them it was nescafe and radioactive spuds or nothing !!

cheers
grainger


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BigAl
Just The Bass Player


Joined: 24/01/02
Posts: 2687
Loc: The King's Height
Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! new [Re: coool]
      #209575 - 11/11/05 09:19 AM
I've never tried radioactive spuds.

My town has a few top class butchers, 2 or 3 top class bakers and a couple of good fruit & veg shops which are always queued out the door.
So supermarkets don't close the so-called traditional shops - not if they're good that is.

Not sure if they use any use Behringer gear.

--------------------
Jack of all trades, master of some.


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Pat
member


Joined: 18/02/03
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Re: Monitors for a Fiver, a mic for a Tenner please! [Re: Steve Hill]
      #209689 - 11/11/05 12:34 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

There's an almost colonial arrogance about rich Westerners lecturing China on working conditions.




There an almost colonial arrogance about rich Westerners lecturing everyone else on what we are allowed to think.


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