Hi,

[Rant]

Well... there I was, waiting for the epxoy resin to dry on the first pre-productiuon model of my new quiet case.

When the latest SoS dropped through my letterbox.

So I opened it to read the wise words of the soundcard manufactures on the vexed question of PCIe.

I read, with mounting horror and amazement. This group of apprently informed technical guys seemed to have entered a collective ostrich emulation mode.

Only ESI thought that PCIe lay inside the planning horizon. Actually, it's been here for over a year.

Maybe they were all spouting the company line or had been told not to say anything to avoid giving their plans away to the competition.

Either that, or they are living in a time warp.


At present, all PCIe mobos have legacy PCI slots; but if you buy a machine now, I don't believe your next upgrade will have any PCI capability.

The PCI bus will dissapear far faster than the ISA bus did, because these days few systems have any PCI expansion cards - everything is integrated onto the mobo - so no legacy equipment to create a demand for mobos with a PCI bus. Plus PCIe is a fully agreed and undisputed international standard with all the major players pushing it.

And technically far superior.

It's not like nVidia is going to go on manufacturing nF3 chips just to satisfy the needs of the DAW industry.

So nobody - but nobody - should still be buying PCI soundcards, or indeed a PCI anything if it costs more than $10. A soundcard is an expensive investment, and typically lasts through two or three PC systems.

If you build a new DAW and use your existing soundcard, no problem. But if you are planning a totally new DAW including a new soundcard do you really want to invest in old technology?

Needs must...some people can't afford to wait, but it's getting to the ponit where my advice is this:

If you can wait, hold fire, go play tiddly-winks for a year, and wait till these cowboys decide they are in business to satisfy the needs of their customers. A radical idea, I know...


[/Rant].





Peter

--------------------
PaQ

The other possibility is that there never will be any PCI-e soundcards.

This is what happened with MIDI interfaces when ISA went away - they all went USB even though USB gives worse performance than ISA. No one bothered to make a PCI MIDI interface.

Not a nice thought, but certainly possible

--------------------
Midipicks - the all new MIDI Guitar forum...

Well, there is something I do not understand: this forum is the only one where you will find that there are problems with pci slots on pci-e motherboards for audio. All other audio/sound forums I visit never mention the problem, and when I did once in a thread, there was unbelieve all around.

As for the ostrich mode...I said it before and that is the same as CC: audio cards will go usb and firewire. Could be that they are still in the last century, audio card manufacturers are not exactly known for following pc standards at any speed. Neither would it take much to switch, they could use a bridge (like the video manufacturers did) to start. And getting native pci-e interfaces wouldn't be difficult either (as stndard cells).

--------------------
Expert in non-working solutions

Hi,

[rant] aside, my personal belief is that at least one of the people in Martin's article was holding out because they did not want to pre-release a product.

I still think we will see PCIe soundcards early in 2006.

Failing that, someone will produce a PCIe to PCI slot converter + bridge. That will cause merry hell with the size/positioning of the PCI slots in the back of the case; but I, for one, will modify my case design to cope.

We know that works - it costs about an extra $10 ($40 street price) to add a PCIe-PCI bridge onto an existing PCI soundcard...

And the variation in the retail price of an emu1212m is more than $40...




Peter

--------------------
PaQ

> I still think we will see PCIe soundcards early in 2006.

Of course we will Peter, either native or with a bridge.

Hi All!

Well, I suspect that these manufacturers don't see a lot of point in investing large amounts of time and money in developing custom chips when (as Matthias Carsten of RME said) a complete solution will be available sooner or later from specialised sources.

After all, some of the companies who contributed to my feature spent several years designing their own FireWire chips, and one of them only finally launched FireWire products a few months ago as a result. Doing the same thing all over again when the number of musicians with PCI Express slots is currently so small could be financial suicide.

I fully understand your points about PCI slots disappearing, but cc. and Havoc also have a good point about PCI Express audio interfaces not being taken up at all by (possibly) a significant proportion of manufacturers. After all, if FireWire and USB 2 already do what most musicians want in the way of track and I/O count, why do a lot more work in developing a new range of products using a (for now) totally unfamiliar interface.

However, I suspect at least some of the companies are already working on PCI Express 'behind the scenes' and don't want to give any advance knowledge of their plans to competitors. We'll see

I hope you all enjoyed reading the feature though, even if you didn't agree with some of its sentiments


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Hi,

Yes I did enjoy the article... useful and interesting - all you can possibly do is report what people say.


I did want to ask about the reference to "a complete solution will be available sooner or later from specialised sources".

Surely the only customers for such a solution would be the soundcard manufacturers. It's not clear to me who these "specialised sources" are, and:
1. Why the soundcard manufacturers are not in closer communication with them - the "sooner or later bit" was somewhat laissez-faire.
2. Why the "specialised sources" were not also invited to the discussion.


The article (i.e the people) did make a clear case for the continuance of internal soudcards, but to me it seemed they ducked the issue that PCI will disappear. Saying "our PCI cards ar great, we see no reason to change" is not a response to the key question:
What are you proposing to do when PCI slots are no longer avaialble".

I'm looking at/for a PCIe to PCI bridge card...



Peter

--------------------
PaQ

I would expect in theory that it would also be possible to create a firewire to PCI bridge (as in have a small rack of PCI cards connected to a PC with firewire), or even using Gigabit Ethernet. Yes it would need drivers on the PC side and some clever embedded electronics, but would be entirely possible.

But why use firewire or ethernet for that? What if the future brings us hypertransport (or some other high speed interconnect) that allows PCs to become several smaller boxes (or several connected boards in a single case)? Need ISA, or PCI or PCIE or AGP or something else - buy a bridge that connects direct to the CPU/northbridge.

PCIE is the next step of interconnects, and so far for musicians it's not looking rosy. If we didn't have USB2 and firewire then I'm sure you'd have PCIE audio interfaces already, but we have them. I would expect my next interface to be firewire, but I have PCI cards that do the job fine for now.

--------------------
and it's a widescreen world around me

I should think Via may well be working on PCIe audio controllers similar in capability to their current PCI Envy24 chips. M-audio, Esi and Terratec for example, rely on these to do most of the work in their PCI cards.

As an aside, I wonder what Esi used in the Maxi I/O? It's well beyond the channel count of any Envy24 that I'm aware of.

Hi
Since the Mac world is already PCIe only for new models, and ProTools will have to be migrated to that to sell to Mac users, then no doubt others like MOTU will develop PCIe kit (all of which presumably will have to be useable in the next generation of Intel Macs).

I didn't read the article, but I don't get the point Martin quotes from RME. AFAIK rme uses Xilinx programmable logic on their pci cards (from the pics at their site, both my cards and the way they answer to a pci query). If I look at this marketing blurb: "Royal Philips Electronics and Xilinx, Inc. demonstrated a programmable PCI Express endpoint silicon solution offered at 1/10th the cost than traditional solutions." from some internet news site then it gets weird. If you do a search on the xilinx site you get 3170 hits for "pci express". If there is one company that would be able to switch fast then it should be rme...

--------------------
Expert in non-working solutions

Quote Jim Y:

---

I should think Via may well be working on PCIe audio controllers similar in capability to their current PCI Envy24 chips. M-audio, Esi and Terratec for example, rely on these to do most of the work in their PCI cards.

---

So VIA is the misterious "specialist supplier" then?

Quote:

---

As an aside, I wonder what Esi used in the Maxi I/O? It's well beyond the channel count of any Envy24 that I'm aware of.

---

I beleive ESI make their own cores.




Peter

--------------------
PaQ

Quote Havoc:

---

I didn't read the article, but I don't get the point Martin quotes from RME. AFAIK rme uses Xilinx programmable logic on their pci cards (from the pics at their site, both my cards and the way they answer to a pci query). If I look at this marketing blurb: "Royal Philips Electronics and Xilinx, Inc. demonstrated a programmable PCI Express endpoint silicon solution offered at 1/10th the cost than traditional solutions." from some internet news site then it gets weird. If you do a search on the xilinx site you get 3170 hits for "pci express". If there is one company that would be able to switch fast then it should be rme...

---

I would wonder what the cost of that IP is though. Can a sound business decision be made to go with PCIE right now? How about 3 months ago? If only it were as simple as you suggest...

--------------------
and it's a widescreen world around me

Quote:

---

I would wonder what the cost of that IP is though.

---

Don't know, but it could be far less than you suspect. By providing the IP for a low cost, they get their chips designed into the card and bind a customer. Give a finger, take an arm.

--------------------
Expert in non-working solutions

Quote Gav:

---

Quote Havoc:

---

... AFAIK rme uses Xilinx programmable logic on their pci cards ... "Royal Philips Electronics and Xilinx, Inc. demonstrated a programmable PCI Express endpoint silicon solution offered at 1/10th the cost than traditional solutions."

---

I would wonder what the cost of that IP is though. Can a sound business decision be made to go with PCIE right now? How about 3 months ago? If only it were as simple as you suggest...

---

Business would be simple if you could just wait til the marked demanded a product and then go develop it.

In fact, you have to take a view, and balance the risk that a market does not take off against the risk of being left behind.

The thing is though, that PCIe is not a "maybe", it's a done deal. The only question is how soon the supply of mothboards that do have a PCI bus will dry up. If the future holds any internal soudcards, or FX processors like the UAD-1, at all they will be PCIe devices. Period. Developing a PCIe soundcard would not be a leap into the unknown, it just make you first into a developing market.

Because there is already a demand. Just look at the problems with PCI bus support on nF4 mobos. Every DAW manufacturer in the know Universe would heave a sigh of relief if a PCIe soundcard turned up.



Peter

--------------------
PaQ

Right so. The decision to go with pci-e was taken before the first motherboards with it came to market.

--------------------
Expert in non-working solutions

Why release a PCI-E device when 32-bit and 64-bit drivers need to be written?

Don't you think the manufacturers will hold on until Vista is released so only one set of drivers need to written (and thus only one lot of support etc) - forcing us all to upgrade the OS in a big conspiracy!

Hi,

You don't need to rewrite the drivers for PCIe - the drivers only see the device, not the connection to it.


AFAIK



Peter

--------------------
PaQ

Esi WaveTerminal 192 and Juli@ use the Envy24HT. Maybe they're using the same solution as RME in the Maxio? Would they design their own for a new product with a max five years life in a niche market?

Although it's been claimed that PCIe devices look the same to the machine as old PCI, according to someone from Creative, there is a significant difference to the way transfers occur which makes timely transfer a problem (as I read it, I don't have a link).

The way soundcards currently communicate has always baffled me. It doesn't seem to work using buffer sized burst transfers because the cards don't have a buffer to match the DMA one used by the driver (although consumer chips do appear to have hardware buffers). Rather, it looks like one sample for each channel is sent together via the DMA controller as needed by the cards audio clock. That's a lot of little packages transfered very slowly compared to the bus speed. Wouldn't it be better if the entire DMA buffer was sent in one burst? The soundcard can sync it to the audio clock. The host program shouldn't care as long as samples are dealt with in the right order.

It also seems that there is no system to detect lost transfers as there is with video where you can have "dropped frames" reported. Should the user have to wait until a recordings played back to discover there's been gapping? This shouldn't even be able to happen, yet current technology allows it, which is surely crazy.
If anything, it's this that I'd like to hear a soundcard developer explain "Why doesn't your driver know it's lost samples?".

The opportunity to improve the efficiency and integrity of audio data transport is maybe there with PCIe, it will be a great shame if it isn't.

Whilst it was an interesting article, I found the discussion on testing to be mildly annoying.

I find it amazing that these sort of products need mollycoddling at all. You pay a premium* for them, and then you find out it doesn't work in your new premium motherboard. But wait, your FW800 hard drive is coping with massive amounts of data, why all the fuss?

They seemed rather proud of their testing methods, yet people do still have problems getting these premium* products to work properly on some systems. We will see real progress when you plug a USB or FW soundcard into any current generation motherboard and it just works with minimal preperation of windows.

By minimal I mean disabling a few unwanted startup tasks, and setting priority to background services.

I think in an ideal world most mid-level soundcards should be USB2 or FW (which is more than enough throughput) to maximise compatibility, then those precious PCIe slots can be used for DSP and MADI where the real power is needed. Then Universal Audio and TC Electronic could (should?) supply you with a patcher that optimises any other settings needed to get them to run well.

Thing is this utopian situation won't happen. No-one is listening.

* by premium I mean compared to many serial peripherals we pay over the odds for audio equipment.

Quote PaulD:

---

Hi
Since the Mac world is already PCIe only for new models, and ProTools will have to be migrated to that to sell to Mac users, then no doubt others like MOTU will develop PCIe kit (all of which presumably will have to be useable in the next generation of Intel Macs).

---

We have G5s and Pro Tools HD at work and have a PCI expansion chassis connected to each system already.I agree, I think digidesign will pave the way for others to follow....

Quote Peter C:

---

So nobody - but nobody - should still be buying PCI soundcards, or indeed a PCI anything if it costs more than $10. A soundcard is an expensive investment, and typically lasts through two or three PC systems.

If you build a new DAW and use your existing soundcard, no problem. But if you are planning a totally new DAW including a new soundcard do you really want to invest in old technology?

---

Well, people have different attitudes to such things, but I personally would not have a problem with buying a PCI card now.

Some soundcards might last through three systems, many will not. While the soundcard itself might still be working perfectly well in seven year's time (with each system lasting say three years), it's highly likely that the user's needs will have developed to the point that they want to revise their audio setup as they upgrade their computer. It's also virtually certain that they will be using a different OS by that time, and highly probable their software configuration will have changed and developed, opening up new possibilities and imposing new demands. Will there even by drivers for the soundcard that work under the new OS, regardless of its connection protocol?

Personally I've long ago given up worrying about what will be compatible with what in that kind of time scale. It's hard to make systems that not only work together happily, but also fufill all one's musical needs with the best possible interface and workflow. By the time you consider everything that needs to be considered, you're doing well if you can just get everything right NOW. Worrying about how it will look in five or ten years' time just makes it impossible - there are too many variables.

Others may think differently, but if the right soundcard for my needs happened to be PCI, and that suited the rest of my system, I'd buy it. It MIGHT be rendered obsolete when I next upgrade my system, or it might not. PCI cards might still be around by then, or there might be a perfectly well-functioning bridge or adaptor that can do the job. I might want to replace the soundcard by then anyway, or my studio might have blown up rendering the whole question academic. Then there's the fact that there are no PCI-E soundcards on the market now, and when the first ones come out, we have no idea what they will be like or how well they will work. The cutting edge is not the best place to be when it comes to something as delicate and temperamental as computer-based audio.

Like I said, too many unknowns. PCI soundcards in known good mobos with PCI slots work now. That's good enough for me.

I have found a similar rant going on over here
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=27&threadid=1701961< br />
there is also a link to why EMU arnen't manufacturing PCIe cards.

--------------------
Kasha - Picture a beautiful life

Quote:

---

Some soundcards might last through three systems, many will not. While the soundcard itself might still be working perfectly well in seven year's time (with each system lasting say three years), it's highly likely that the user's needs will have developed to the point that they want to revise their audio setup as they upgrade their computer.

---

Lots of this depends on how you plan and invest. When I decided it was time for a new soundcard I went totally over the top. So after 6 years my rme 9652 is still more than ample.

But at the same time I regret buying a pci-x raid controller, I should have bought a pci-e one. This one might get a second live, but it won't get 3 like the soundcard.

So if I change soundcards, it will be usb, whatever version is then current.

--------------------
Expert in non-working solutions

Meh, whatever, if they do bring out PCIe soundcards, then clearly the price of PCI ones will drop so much that we can buy for example, 3 M-Audio Delta 1010's, for around £50, and have them on our old Nforce 3 motherboards, and be well happy that everyone else is getting ripped off with PCIe and the latest stuff. Hey, we might even be able to get a current (as in current NOW) Protools HD system for not so much in the next few years. Bring on PCIe

Hi,

Especially Wurlizer and Havoc.

I feel quite strongly about this, so I may have exaggerated a bit to make my points. On purpose.

That's why I put my oprignal post in [rant]...[/rant] brackets, which for some reason does not work in this forum. (aside: I'm sure Martin can fix that )

Clearly the decision criteria I describe do not apply to everyone, and certainly not to everyone all the time; but I still think they are trends that will impact the market.


Peter

--------------------
PaQ


Edited by Peter C (21/11/05 01:16 AM)

Sorry Peter - I'm not in charge of SOS web site design, although I can certainly pass on your request to the powers that be

I tend towards Wurli's view on all this - I already have perfectly good soundcards in my PC, and am perfectly satisfied with their performance. While like the majority of PC Musicians I can always find something to do with extra processing power, my audio interfaces stay put until seomthing significantly better comes along For instance, I was quite happy with my Echo Gina 20-bit interface until I'd reviewed the Echo Mia, when the improvement in audio quality was obvious. Nevertheless, I added a Yamaha SW1000XG because of its excellent MIDI functions, and similarly, I added an Emu 1820M to my system after I'd reviewed that, because its audio performance once again jumped up a notch. However, I haven't auditioned any other interface since that's made me want to get my credit card out again.

On the other hand, I almost have to upgrade to a new PC with PCI Express slots to cope with any future reviews of compatible soundcards, and even though I'd prefer to carry on with my three PCI cards I may have to abandon the Yamaha and Echo in the process. Most new trends in the PC world are driven by 'must have' features. However, in the case of PCI Express it seems at the moment as if many of us will have to go with it whether we want it or not. PCI is perfectly adequate for my current requirements.

However, I do agree with Jim that it's about time we got audio interfaces with drivers that could survive the occasional 'dropped frame'. I know the normal argument is about 'real time' transfers as compared those where repeated requests for the same bits of data can be accommodated, but most of us are well within bandwidth limits, so there should be plenty of time to cope with the odd click or pop 're-send' if it could be detected.


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Also keep in mind the following analogy.....

When MACS came out, they where the creative force for creative persons. The IBM on the other hand was used for offices.

Then gaming came out which drove the GPU cards to newer and faster limits...Mac tried to keep up, of course swithing to intel is a solution now.

That said, FW800 should be supported in Windows Vista as well as a similar audio codec like Mac's audio core, in addition, Vista will be geared toward multimedia, firewire, creative and so on, plus I have read faster Firewire devices and protocols to come out soon.

Only time will tell.

--------------------
www.filmtv.biz

Quote:

---

However, I do agree with Jim that it's about time we got audio interfaces with drivers that could survive the occasional 'dropped frame'. I know the normal argument is about 'real time' transfers as compared those where repeated requests for the same bits of data can be accommodated, but most of us are well within bandwidth limits, so there should be plenty of time to cope with the odd click or pop 're-send' if it could be detected.

---

Problem here is the limited memory onboard of soundcards. If you had that then there was no problem. Detecting should be no problem, with linux I get that information from jack all the time, so it should be possible in windows as well.

--------------------
Expert in non-working solutions

Hey Peter,
well cant say i didnt tell you.

of the 6 manufacturers i asked they all said not now mabye later.

truth be told for the average guy a firewire interface is fine.

for more advanced studios a madi card etc is the answer.

however i agree PCIe is here to stay. and PCI will most certainly disapear quicker than ISA.

i think the big issue with alot of them is waiting on real PCIe spec to appear. or at least the real controller not PCI to PCIe bridge crap.

i think when Vista ships and has its first service pack you may see PCIe in force. remember the real PCIe requies a controller which requires a re-write of code, alot of re-write.

Ahhh it just keeps getting worse......

Scott
ADK

PS i will email you one of these days been very swamped

Quote jcschild:

---

Hey Peter,
well cant say i didnt tell you.

of the 6 manufacturers i asked they all said not now mabye later.

---

You did, and you may well be right.

But I still think it's equally possible that those guys have prouducts under wraps and are holding out on us because they have not decided when to jump and don't want the competition to know what they are planning...

I have predicted 2006Q1... and (fool that I am) I'm sticking with that. Come April 1st we'll all know if I am right or wrong. At that point, if I'm prved wrong, you guys get to choose - an appology or a drink - but not both.

Quote:

---

Truth be told for the average guy a firewire interface is fine.

---

True, but I have my doubts about attaching low latency equipment to any shared bus. PCIe is the right answer - tons of bandwidth and QoS capability; plus I personally prefer to habe expensive stuff inside the case where it's neat and protected.

We are in a transition phase, and this lack of PCI soundcards is a hicccup. I'm quite certain the future is PCIe-shaped.

Quote:

---

for more advanced studios a madi card etc is the answer.

---

Yes... but isn't the MADI interface to the DAW a PCI (opps, shouldn't that be a PCIe) card?

Quote:

---

however i agree PCIe is here to stay. and PCI will most certainly disapear quicker than ISA.

i think the big issue with alot of them is waiting on real PCIe spec to appear. or at least the real controller not PCI to PCIe bridge crap.

i think when Vista ships and has its first service pack you may see PCIe in force. remember the real PCIe requies a controller which requires a re-write of code, alot of re-write.

---

Seems you have an insight on how PCIe works and it low level OS interface that I lack.

DOS runs on a PCIe mobo. I thought the interface looked the same and only hardware had to change; and that's why, for instance the PCI device addressing scheme has survived into PCIe.


Peter

--------------------
PaQ

Quote Martin Walker:

---

Sorry Peter - I'm not in charge of SOS web site design, although I can certainly pass on your request to the powers that be

---

Thanks... that's exactly what I meant when I said I was sure you would fix it.

Let me know the e-mail of the guy who will be responsible for implentiong this,and I'll forward him the spec...

But in general terms, stuff in [rant] brackets will have its monochrome backround replaced with a video of a flickering frame interspersed with shots of mopderates like Billy Graham or Stalin at the climax of one of their more entertaining (aka controversial) speeches.

Plus, if you have embedded rants, the inner rant will (provided you have a full 3D virtual reality monitor) reach out to you and throttle you (in the nicest possible way), just to make sure you are paying attention.

...

Nothing too ostentaious



Peter

--------------------
PaQ

Quote Peter C:

---

Yes... but isn't the MADI interface to the DAW a PCI (opps, shouldn't that be a PCIe) card?

---

It is indeed a PCI card.

I wonder what you could achieve with a FW800 digital only fireface? A FireMADI anyone? Firefaces are meant to be stackable...

Ah, nothing too complex then, and still suitable for anyone here who still hasn't got broadband


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Absolutely


Peter

--------------------
PaQ

Now that the online version of the December mag has been published I've had the chance to read the article.

Interesting stuff. I think Martin's conclusions in the 'Final Thoughts' section sum things up nicely. But there's by no means unanimous agreement on all points.

I particularly like the wildly varying opinions on USB devices. The RME guy "USB 2 never had and will never have a bright future as an audio interface format" (and his explanation as to why squares up with my own understanding of the two protocols) whilst the guy from ESI said "Firewire has no real practical advantages compared to a properly designed USB 2.0 audio interface". Go figure.

But one point regarding Firewire wasn't discussed in the article or (AFAIK) on this forum: to the best of my knowledge (in the PC world at least - not sure about Mac's) all Firewire chipsets are in fact PCI devices. Sure, they may be build directly on to the motherboard but they're connected to the main chipset via the PCI bus. Conversely, USB controllers are almost always built into the south bridge of the chipset.

So does this mean that if you have a Firewire based audio device you may be able to take advantage of the QoS features of PCIe with a device you own currently when PCIe based Firewire controllers beccome available?

Hi,

I was under the impression thwt USB devices are also connected to the PCI bus, like on-board Firewire.

Whatever, they will have to end up as PCIe devices in the end; so each will be directly connected to the PCIe switch because PCIe is a P2P system - there is no shared bus with multiple devices connected to it under PCIe.

But no - the firewire controller will have a driver; and unless someone specifically goes out to create a firewire divice offering QoS then there would be no QoS on a Firewire (or USB) attached device.

USB and Firewire are shared buses anyway; and do not offer QoS to their client devices (AFAIK). So a firewire attached soundcard is just a firewire attached device; and there is no obvious way to exploit thet fact theat the Firewire is a PCIe device to get a QoS gurantee for the soundcard.



Peter

--------------------
PaQ

Quote Peter C:

---

I was under the impression thwt USB devices are also connected to the PCI bus, like on-board Firewire.

---

I'm reasonably certain that this is not the case. Whilst you can of course buy USB add-in cards that operate on the PCI bus I think that most chipsets from the last couple of years include a USB root controller directly on the south bridge.

Quote Peter C:

---

But no - the firewire controller will have a driver; and unless someone specifically goes out to create a firewire divice offering QoS then there would be no QoS on a Firewire (or USB) attached device.

USB and Firewire are shared buses anyway; and do not offer QoS to their client devices (AFAIK). So a firewire attached soundcard is just a firewire attached device; and there is no obvious way to exploit thet fact theat the Firewire is a PCIe device to get a QoS gurantee for the soundcard.

---

Yes, you're right of course. The Firewire protocol in it's current specification simply doesn't allow for this. But I wonder if, for example, you might be able to run a Firewire audio device with a smaller sample buffer when attached to a PCIe based Firewire controller????

Has anyone actually seen any PCIe cards of any description in anything ever, other than graphics? I haven't come across any myself so rumours of it becoming an international standard seem, to me, a little overstated. The things that used to take up PCI slots now either reside on the motherboard (firewire, network and audio), or are obsolete like modems. There's nothing in my computer that actually needs to be PCI - why would any manufacturer spend time developing for a format that doesn't seem to have a purpose?

I've built plenty of machines with 915 and 925 chipsets, combined PCI and PCIe and not seem any performance problems so the reason why other forums dont talk about it is because unless you are very unlucky there isn't a problem - it's the sort of thing driver writers like to get all hot and bothered about.

M-Audio's Delta range is now soooooo old that i really dont think they would complain if PCI became obsolete, it would give them an excuse to ditch them - great though they are. Emu are the only ones i worry about as their whole range is PCI based... I have noticed that Digidesign are developing PCie versions of their HD cards - who'd have thought that they would ever be ahead in the technology game?

My only worry is what to do with my Powercore and Delta 44 when i make my next upgrade jump to whati imagine will be a PCI-less systems...

--------------------
PC-Music.com hints, tips & reviews
Rain Computers UK - Creative Audio PC's

Hi,

Yes.

Fist of all PCIe is an international standard, in the sense that it is agreed to and adhered to by all the major players.

I have actually seen a PCie Gb Lan card - it had 4 Gb lan ports on it; and as each of these, on it's own had the same capacity as teh entire PCI bus it's pretty clear that it needed to PCIe.

And you can get PCIe SATA controllers. Two HD can easily saturate the PCI bus...

But to be fair, I have not seen many PCI cards (except soundcards) installed in PC in the last two years. Most stuff has been integrated into the mobo; and anything with pretnesion to bandwidth has been directly connected to the I/O chipset. That means it is, or seen must be a PCIe device.

Firewire 800 (and isn't a 88Mb/s USB coming) would have to be PCIe devices, as either of these would consume upto 60% of total PCI bus bandwidth alone.

The total inadequecy of PCI has been masked by the steady process of removing things from the PCI bus and giving them their own direct connection to the I/O ship. In theis sense the chipsets have been evolving towards PCIe informally for years - because the whole point about PCIe is that each PCIe device has its own P2P link to the PCIe switch - which is a big multiplexor ther constitutes the heart of the PCIe chipset.

"own PCIe link" = "direct connection" via agreed protocol.




Peter

--------------------
PaQ