Quote Digital:

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I hope that if some kid from some Third World country will get a used PC for Christmas and then managed to get his hands on a cracked DAW, MORAL USERS will change their ways and will not call him a thief or blame him for dire state of music software industry.

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?

What's your point?

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...rubbish at words 'n' stuff.

The point was lost in translation.

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Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?

Quote Digital:

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I hope that if some kid from some Third World country will get a used PC for Christmas and then managed to get his hands on a cracked DAW, MORAL USERS will change their ways and will not call him a thief or blame him for dire state of music software industry.

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Yaaaawwwwwnnnn. We're not talking about that - I wish people who justify cracked software would stop using the third world as an excuse, its tasteless.

Third World is tasteless?!

Are you serious?

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Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?

Digital - you've missed the point. We are talking about something else. The people I know who used cracked software are not in the third world. They are in this country, they can afford to buy it but don't. If you read the previous posts, from people like myself who condemn software piracy, you will realise you have misunderstood what we are saying.

I understand that you believe that kid from Mozambique has an excuse.

What about kid from New Orleans or Bronx?

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Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?

Quote Digital:

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What about kid from New Orleans or Bronx?

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There are many poverty ridden regions of the world outside the USA and the third world, including parts of many cities in the UK and elsewhere in Europe I'm sure.

Discuss piracy and relevant solutions.
Poverty isnt something that the software developers are going to be able to affect, is it!

Edited by drumon (08/12/05 11:59 AM)

Quote Pat:

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Quote Martin: the return...:

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And learn to use the quote commands! i only want to rip your arguments apart figuratively, not literally

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“to be honest, i think it cheapens you to indulge in this kind of abuse”

Two pots are we, calling each other black! (Master Yoda – Deleted scene SW ep 2 )

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Touche.

The 'fundamentalist opinions' jibe was aimed at beya, not you, but for that reason it should have had it's own post I admit. Sorry for the confusion.

And those last few paragraphs do come across as a bit holier than thou on re-reading. I was responding to what i thought were pretty disparaging personal remarks so it should be read in that light.

I still think you're missing my point though.

Before we start, parts of your post seem to imply my argument is basically a dressed-up justification of my personal decision to use a cracked copy of Cubase SX. Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines, but I'll clarify anyway: I use a legit copy of Sonar Studio v.3 in my studio, i've never used a copy of SX cracked or otherwise. I was using it as an example. As I said above, it's not a great example for various reasons and it's starting to look as if I'm having a specific go at steinberg, so I'll use something else from now on.

Quote Pat:

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Quote Martin: the return...:

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I dont think £300 is too much to pay for cubase SX if you use it every day - under those circumstances it's a great deal. But if you only use it once, or once every 2 years, it's expensive. Cubase isnt a great example I admit, as not many people buy a sequencer for occasional use.

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Sic probo...

If its worth pirating you must feel you need it, in which case you shouldn't mind paying for it... If its not worth the cash buy something else... .

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I dont think that addresses what i said at all. It's wholly reasonable for someone to evaluate a service on how frequently they use it. People make decisions like that all the time.

And I dont see that just because you use a service infrequently, it folows that you can make do with a cut down version of that service when you do use it.

Take dreamweaver MX as an example (a better one than cubase), i only use it about once a year but when i do I need the features it has that cheaper web design packages dont. I'm lucky because i live with a pro web designer and I can use his legit copy, but if i didnt I'd have 2 choices: pay over £300 for something that only gets used for 2 days a year, or have a much crappier website that I cant control properly.

I dont do a huge amount of recording so i dont have any expensive mics - but if I found i needed one for a project I could hire it instead of being forced to buy it. Why cant I do the same for dreamweaver?

Say that i got a windfall from somewhere, and I decided to invest in a neumann or a les paul, or some other high end piece of kit that wouldnt get used too frequently. At least i know that even when I'm not using it, it's still my property and counts among my assets. There are no contractual restrictions on what I can do with it: i can sell it, lend it to people, lease it out if i want to. If my skills are good enough i can upgrade the design myself and sell it at a profit - I can do this on a commercial level if i wanted to.

None of this applies to software because i dont own it. All I've purchased is the right to use it. The license itself comes with so many restrictions that I cant really consider it my property. With sonar's license I'm not even allowed to sell it - I think most people (and most courts) would think that if you have something in your possession that you arent legally permitted to sell on, that thing cannot be regarded as your property.

Thats why i think it distorts the argument to think of software as property, and that it's much better to think of it as a service. And as I say, I want to be able to pay for a service on the basis of how much I use it.

This cuts both ways. I paid about £250 for Sonar, but to be honest i'd be prepared to pay 5 or 6 times that much given the amount it gets used. There's freeware that i use a lot that I've voluntarily paid for & i can reproduce the thankyou emails from the programmers if necessary. But i object to paying a flat fee for software I'm hardly ever going to use.

I cant be the only person in this position - there must be a demand for software leasing and fee-per-use systems, but no companies have come forward to supply that demand. The samplitude page you linked to is really a try-before-you-buy scheme, not a serious attempt at leasing.

Zukan and fader, i hear what your saying about the small size and vulnerability of software houses, even the market leading ones. I'm not a programmer and I've never worked in this industry except as an end user - maybe there's a tendency for those in my position to see every high profile software house as a den of flash dot-com millionaires and marketing gurus. i accept that with music software thats almost universally not the case.

However, i dont think what you're saying invalidates my argument. If software houses are going to get themselves out of the mess you say they are in, they will have to develop new ways of servicing their customers - relying on courts and the conscience of the public isnt going to work. The music industry tried that and suffered a lot of damage - now they've changed their mindset (a bit) and started supporting downloading, the situation has started to improve. From what I can see software developers still havent gone through that process.

Zukan, lurkalot, fader - if you work in or close to the industry, can you tell us a bit more about what (if anything) companies are doing to address the problems I've highlighted above? Because no-one here, including me wants to see companies going to the wall because they cant get to grips with this problem.


PS. pat what does sic probo mean? I googled it & got nothing. Expand my vocab please

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www.myspace.com/benjunctionbox

Edited by Martin: the return... (08/12/05 12:29 PM)

Quote drumon:

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Discuss piracy and relevant solutions.
Poverty isnt something that the software developers are going to be able to affect, is it!

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I agree with your statement.

However, in this and similar threads some participants expressed extreme views and resorted to derogatory name calling, and I believe that truth is, as in most cases somewhere in the middle.

I personally don’t know which side is right and which side is wrong, nor do I imagine myself to be any kind of authority on the subject. But for example Richard Stallman certainly is an authority and he believes that copyright is actually detrimental to software development.

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Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?

Trouble is there's a stigma to using non-flagship products. I'd wager nearly all of us could manage with just Sonar Home Studio 4 which is very cheap (and features most of the important things like PDC), but they want the cachet of using the full package so steal it instead.

For me, something as trivial as the user interface isn't even an issue. I'll use whatever does the job and let others worry about the name.

Whether the software licensing agreement is a joke or not is not the question. I have to agree that is a joke, the fact that you pay huge sums of money to *use* something that is not even yours.

Regardless, it is what it is, and by opening and installing the software, you have agreed to abide by licence, agree with it or not. Once you do so, you have a legal (and moral) obligation to abide by it.

The age-old (and tired) argument about "noone is forcing you to buy it" sucks, but does have some merit. To exist in this world , most of us pretty much depend on computers and software in one form or another, you can't just boycott the technology because you don't agree with the licencing agreement.

So what do we do? We are stuck with the agreement for now, and live in a culture that wants something for nothing, hence cracked software and pirated music. If we cannot control it legally, we have to attack it morally. It is really our only choice in the short-term.

A different model is indeed needed, but if it was that simple, someone much brighter than any of us would have thought of a way a long time ago.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Martin: the return...:

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Quote Doublehelix:

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I find nothing wrong with borrowing a book, because it is a physical entity that was bought and paid for at some point, and when you borrow it, you are not copying a physical entity.

With software however, you can make an exact copy, and use that *copy*, so rather than *borrowing* a physical entity, you are making your own version, which in my book is stealing.

As I pointed out however, if you owned a version of Cubase that you installed on a computer, and I borrowed the computer *and* the software for a week while I make a song, I would say I was borrowing a physical entity, and that would be OK. You are unable to use the software while I am making my record....

So again, my bottom line here:

If you want to "borrow" software, you do not make a copy of that software, but rather you must use the *same* version of that software.

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DH, please, take some time to reread this post and consider the logic behind it. I accept that in legal terms, borrowing a copyrighted work is not the same as making a copy of it - but this argument is framed in moral terms, and from a moral point of view what possible difference can it make to the originator of the work whether you deprive the legitimate license holder of the right to enjoy the work during your period of use? The bottom line, to my eyes, is that they are still being deprived of income. i'm sure the commander and his mortgage adviser would agree. This kind of micro hairsplitting might salve your conscience but it's not doing anything for this debate, apart from muddying the waters still further.

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My point on borrowing vs. copying is that there is only one copy available to borrow, copying perpetuates itself into many, many copies.

You yourself have said that there are the rare times where you would like to use Dreamweaver but could not justify the expense of buying it. If there were a library around that legitimately bought the software (and rewarded the author), and you could go in and "borrow" it for a couple of hours a year. At least the author made something, plus all the legal (and moral) requirements were met. This is a similar format to what a lot of universities are doing.

The alternative is for someone to use a cracked copy, and then no one benefits.

Sure, the author is being deprived of some compensation through a borrowing scheme, but at least it is legal, and a *little bit* is a heck of a lot more compensation than *nothing* through piracy.

I agree that it is not a great or viable solution, and I am not suggesting this as the solution to piracy, I was just responding to a post on borrowing. It sounded to me that a point was being made that suggested that copying was no different than borrowing since the author receives no compensation. I disagree. They are worlds apart.

My comments are valid enough for the discussion, and where do you get off saying I am "muddying the waters" just becuase you don't agree with me? Who made you the forum moralist?

I must've missed the memo.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Doublehelix:

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A different model is indeed needed, but if it was that simple, someone much brighter than any of us would have thought of a way a long time ago.

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This IS the different model!!!!
The original model was to charge yearly software subscriptions on fixed term agreements (Applications AND OSs..) and charge for CPU time on hardware
Problem is none of us liked that 'cos we were then tied into hardware, propreitary OS and software
The yearly sub price for OS and Application software for a £1billion turnover company was £2.5million
For that price you could have bought a couple of Unix servers, a relational database and recruited a few C and SQL programmers
And that is exactly what happened in the late 1980s early 1990s (and then all hell broke loose)

Quote Doublehelix:

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A different model is indeed needed, but if it was that simple, someone much brighter than any of us would have thought of a way a long time ago.

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We do, and I am no way attacking you for the points you have made, and that is to take up a software engineering course learn how to program and develop the software for yourself if, as many feel here, your hand is being forced into purchasing an agreement you don't agree with. It's just as simple as that in my opinion. If you don't want to so something and you allow others to do it for you, then you play by their rules or not at all.

Beya

Quote Martin: the return...:

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If software houses are going to get themselves out of the mess you say they are in, they will have to develop new ways of servicing their customers - relying on courts and the conscience of the public isnt going to work. The music industry tried that and suffered a lot of damage - now they've changed their mindset (a bit) and started supporting downloading, the situation has started to improve. From what I can see software developers still havent gone through that process.

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I agree, Martin, and thank you for interjecting some actual thoughtfulness into this debate. Relying on the public conscience clearly does not work, or we wouldn't be having this debate, and relying on the courts gets companies into situations like the RIAA suing that 12-year-old-girl from subsidized housing. Can you imagine a bigger blow to a company's image? Fundamentalist, with-me-or-against-me attitudes don't work here--that girl thought her mother had paid for some downloading service. Maybe she's lying, but the point is that this is an extremely complex issue, and the complexity seems lost on most people posting here.

A new model is needed (whether or not the current model is newer than some previous model), and a new model will be found. Someone or some company always finds a way to make money from a new situation, and cries of "the sky is falling" usually turn out not to be true.

Kudos to you for trying as hard as you have to get people to think about what they're writing. I tried explaining carefully and repeatedly how I thought borrowing a book deprives its author of income, how it's irrelevant that I'm not making a physical copy because the benefits of ownership are conferred by borrowing books but not by borrowing software. I gave an example of the shared DAW depriving its developers of $1,000, and I pointed out that claiming that something is true is not the same as saying why one thinks it is true. Despite all that, it "sounded" to the person engaging in that debate like I was "suggesting" that copying and borrowing were the same:

Quote Doublehelix:

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It sounded to me that a point was being made that suggested that copying was no different than borrowing since the author receives no compensation. I disagree. They are worlds apart.

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OK, then. I guess I was wrong, wasn't I? If one has to go on about a topic like I did just to hint at suggesting something, I'm not sure what would be required to actually emphatically make a direct point. Either way, it seems that point can simply be struck down by someone saying, "you're wrong" without any supporting evidence.

Kudos to you for trying to promote actual debate, rather than simple chest-beating. Good luck if you decide to continue!

I did say "it sounded to me", and like you said earlier, we were just misunderstanding each other's point. After you pointed that out a couple of pages ago, I understood where you were coming from, and I did indeed misunderstand your original point, but your response was confusing, even when I re-read it now, although I do see what you were getting at.

I actually enjoyed your posts raphus as they provoked thought and a new way of looking at the situation. (As Martin's could have if he had left out the personal jabs)

My most recent post (above) was in response to Martin's comments about me muddying the waters. My point here was that I expressing an opinion, and just because he disagrees does not give him the right to dictate whether it was appropriate or not.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Digital:

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I understand that you believe that kid from Mozambique has an excuse.

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Why do you assume that? It is patronising, sanctimonius twaddle. In my experience, kids from Mozambique simply ask to be treated with same respect accorded to other human beings, and not for any special concessions (which you appear to be willing - unasked - to grant them).

As something of a student of the whole fair trade/WTO/agricultural subsidies topic, my experience is all these people want is a level playing field. They would be appalled at a view that it was somehow all right for "them" to indulge in piracy when "we" should not.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Doublehelix:

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My most recent post (above) was in response to Martin's comments about me muddying the waters. My point here was that I expressing an opinion, and just because he disagrees does not give him the right to dictate whether it was appropriate or not.

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DH, i'm sorry if you took personal offence at that, it wasnt meant that way. Saying i was trying to dictate your opinions is a bit strong i think. Maybe muddying the waters has a more pejoritive meaning in the states than it does here, i dont know.

At the time I posted there were a lot of finger-pointing posts and my opinion was that the real issues of software piracy were getting obscured. Thats what i meant by muddying the waters. I still cant really see where you were going with that train of thought and i think my arguments against it are valid, but as raphus & you have called it a day on this issue then I probably should too.

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www.myspace.com/benjunctionbox

Hehe...it is funny how a topic like this can get everyone's feathers in a ruffle (mine included!).

I have indeed been under the weather these past 2 days with a nasty cold, and have been on the irritable side (just ask my wife!).

I apologoze to both you and Raphus. I can be a miserable git when I feel this way. Please accept my apologies, and let's move on as everyone else says...

Now where is that Nyquil bottle and box of tissues?

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote:

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... But for example Richard Stallman certainly is an authority and he believes that copyright is actually detrimental to software development.

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I recall reading an interview with him 3 or 4 years ago, where he argued how Napster and music piracy was bad for musicians (he plays in a band himself) ....

We do need a new model for software usage/distribution. Some sort of rental / per usage fee seems to me to be the best way to go. Just don't ask me how to implement it.

Many of us are very disatisfied with the way 'digital media' of all sorts are putting more and more restrictions on the way we can use them. It seems as the users of the media we have fewer and fewer rights. Read a EULA and it implies that if the software doesn't perform as expected it's not the companies fault. I realise this is legal 'boilerplate' and if you've got the stomach for it you actually CAN return some software, but such statements don't give me confidenceAs long as this of continues, with the extension of copyright period being asked for by Disney etc.. with extension of patent laws to cover just about any idea that can be put on on the side of a matchbox, people will feel they are being left out.

Speaking of patents : this is for real...
Check the drawings, they are very instructive...

Edited by steveman (08/12/05 11:46 PM)

sic probo - latin - "thus I prove it"

A very useful phrase if you wan't everyone on an internet forum to think you are a pompous arse!

The "sic" bit is often seen when newspapers quote someone who has made a syntax error, but do not want people to think it is they who are making a syntax error (if that makes sense!?!)

e.g. George Bush was heard to comment "The united states is entitledted (sic) to defendonstrate (sic) its interests against the terrorist folks"

etc etc

I need to re read your arguements again martin, but this will take some time so I will not respond yet if thats all the same to you.


Cheers


Pat

Doublehelix: Apology accepted, and not really necessary. I hope I have not offended you, and I hope you feel better.

Pat: When referring to George Bush, I think the correct term is actually pric sobo. Always good to sound edjumacated, you know.

Martin: I thought I would gain further insight into this issue by discussing it with friends over dinner last night. By the third glass of wine, we were discussing Bill Gates instead; by the fourth glass, economic inequities and the environmental cost of shipping billions of little plastic water bottles all over the planet. Unfortunately, but perhaps not surprisingly, no new insights into software piracy were to be had.

Quote Pat:

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sic probo - latin - "thus I prove it"

A very useful phrase if you wan't everyone on an internet forum to think you are a pompous arse!

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I'm not a Latin scholar but could *sic probo* also mean *thus I test it*. If it does this would fit in with some people's statements that they are using this post to explore their own views on the subject.

[rant]

JEEZ!!!

What a tedious thread: I blame the indulgent and useless parents of some of these posters, but mostly themselves. Morals? Whassat?

Well said Zukan.

I, for example have happily paid for Logic Pro, and Peak . . . Especially for the superb Altiverb and Tritone plugs . . . with a large proportion of my income.

All you Kevins out there, Life Is Not Fair . . . only if your attitude expects loads of stuff for nothing.

I hope all you pirates out there have your songs ripped off. Now, that would be Karma.

[/rant]

G

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PA stuff on FB


Edited by Guy Johnson (10/12/05 05:56 PM)

Quote Guy Johnson:

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Especially for the superb Altiverb and Tritone plugs . . . with a large proportion of my income.

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Yep yep... you've got my full support there G, two of the best plugin companies around for sure. I just don't see how anyone who had any pride in their work would want to vouch for an unknown quantity!

Spread the love people. If you invest in your tools, the tool maker is then able to research into better tools, we all benefit at the end of the day, and so the cycle continues....

Beya

Quote beyarecords:

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Yep yep... you've got my full support there G, two of the best plugin companies around for sureBeya

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Yes. And they are small businesses as well - you can see the care and dedication they put into their work. I sincerely hope there are no cracks of these plugs.

G

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PA stuff on FB

It is hard not to notice in this thread that posts advocating occasional use of copyrighted software (for evaluation purposes etc.) appear to be written by honest, fair and balanced men. And those on the opposite side represented almost exclusively by members of Angry Church. Mr Johnson’s recent Parent Attack went pretty low indeed.

However, I’m very pleased that honest, fair and balanced men didn’t reply in kind and instead will chose to contribute constructive comments.



To everybody:
and especially to those representing organized religions:

Please try to understand that there are often more than just one single truth. And if two camps have a disagreement, doesn’t mean that one of them is wrong. It doesn’t mean that they have to:
“shut up”
“grow up”
“take responsibility”
And it doesn’t mean that they are:
“stupid”
“idiots”
“morons”
“thieves” and
“scam of the earth”
At the end of the day, if you will use words like that towards someone like Richard Stallman, how would you describe yourself?

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Digital Emotions’ SOSF IQ quickie:
if 0VU = -20dBFS then HR = ?