First, the patchbay...
1. Is the Neutrik NSY-SPP-L patchbay good (I know, very open-ended)?
2. What are some features to look for in a patchbay?
3. What is a TT style patchbay? (seen as a reason for selling the aforementioned Neutrik patchbay on eBay).

Second, cables...
1. Mic cables are usually female xlr one end and male xlr the other, right?
2. Can I use the same cable I'd use in my mic cable to run from my desk to the monitors? Amp to monitors?

Third, amps...
This is a very open-ended discussion point. After perusing this forum for awhile, I noticed a few things in various threads. For example, The Byre recommended to skip buying budget monitors and use el cheapo boxes while I get used to everything else (recording, tracking, my gear, etc.) while saving to get into the second level stuff (like Adam Artists, etc...quality from a home/hobby studio perspective). In a headphone thread I saw it recommended to get some quality headphones over budget monitors and just use some el cheapo boxes for checking out the imaging/width issues with mixing on phones. So....

I have a pair of el cheapo speakers from a now deceased rock box that presumably (they are quite light) need an amp to drive. So, given that a quality pair of phones needs a quality headphone amp (yay, more money) how should all of this go together? I need...

A pair of quality headphones.
A quality headphone amp.
A decent amp to run my cheapie monitors.

So can I get all of that for around $300? Obviously the HD-650's are now out of the running! Any suggestions? Ideally, if I need to spend more money, getting the cheapo monitors up and running would be helpful.

Sorry for the long-winded post. I distilled a lot of thinking and investigating in the past months down into this post. For reference, here is what "you" are dealing with.

Yamaha MG12/4
Rode NT5's
Casio CTK-630
Roland JV-1010
Midisport 2x4
M-Audio Delta 44
Sony MDR-V150
El Cheapo Koss Speakers
No Acoustic Room Treatment
Apartment Bedroom which will be/is an office/studio room

I plan on eventually recording some vocals and acoustic guitar as well as recording electric guitar and base through amp modelling and DI.

Thanks to all who help!!

P-X

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My Home Studio Build Thread

A little helpful research for the headphone question...

HD 650 = $320.65 = £181.44
HD 600 = $274.90 = £155.56
HD 580 = $149.95 = £84.85
K240DF = $160.94 = £91.07
K240S = $99.00 = £56.02
MDR-7509 = $197.89 = £111.98
MDR-7506 = $98.95 = £55.99

All pricing is shipped from a reputable dealer (imo).

P-X

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My Home Studio Build Thread

Quote PrinceXizor:

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1. Is the Neutrik NSY-SPP-L patchbay good (I know, very open-ended)?

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Pretty much all Neutrik stuff is well made and reliable.

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2. What are some features to look for in a patchbay?

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Good reliable socket contacts. The ability to easily configure normalling between rows and individual sockets in various ways. Cable support facilities to stop heavy cables from bending/stressing the sockets.

Quote:

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3. What is a TT style patchbay? (seen as a reason for selling the aforementioned Neutrik patchbay on eBay).

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The TT or 'bantum' size patch bays offer far greater socket density per U of rack space because the sockets and plugs are minuature versions of the professional B-gauge sockets. USed widely in pro studios because of the space efficiency, but tend to be much less reliable than pukka B-gauge patch bays. Patch leads have to be bought ready made and are quite expensive.

Quote:

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1. Mic cables are usually female xlr one end and male xlr the other, right?

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Yep. Main difference between brands is quality of cable used, and whether the connector shells are connected internally to pin 1. Most are, and it's a pain in the neck!

Quote:

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2. Can I use the same cable I'd use in my mic cable to run from my desk to the monitors? Amp to monitors?

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yep.

Quote:

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A pair of quality headphones.
A quality headphone amp.
A decent amp to run my cheapie monitors.

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The headphone outlet in most equipment is fine for most purposes, especially if you are working with budget headphones anyway. So you don't need to invest in a headphone amp just yet. Better to put the money into getting a better amp for your speakers IMHO.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks for the thoughts Hugh. A couple of additional comments.

1. I'm looking to UPGRADE my headphones, not to continue using the current Sony ones I have. Any recommendations out of the list I posted given the available pricing and is used a viable option for headphones?

2. What type of amp would you recommend? It appears if I spend $150-$200 on headphones, I have $100-$150 left over for an amp. That doesn't seem like much. Also, how much would passive monitors cost of similar quality to Adam Artists, Dynaudio BM5A's, Event ASP6's, etc.

Thanks for the comments on the cable. I'm going to probably buy a spool of Gotham Audio Cable (300+ feet) and its good to know I can use it for mic cables, line cable, monitor cables, amp cables...everything.

Any other comments from our resident experts?

P-X

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My Home Studio Build Thread

Quote:

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Hugh Robjohns:
Quote:
2. Can I use the same cable I'd use in my mic cable to run from my desk to the monitors? Amp to monitors?



yep.

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..er... I think Hugh missed the second question hiding at the end. I'm pretty sure it should be "yep" and "nope".

Yep for any decent balanced line/mic cable (STP/Quad) used on mics, lines and balanced line level monitor feeds to amps (or active speakers). Nope for speaker level feeds from amp to speakers. You could use "mic lead" for amp to speakers but being rather thin and lightweight, it's far from ideal. If you need a speaker cable on a budget, you'd be better off using a bit of two core mains flex rather than mic lead (just make sure it's clearly identified amongst the tangle of other mains leads )

I think that if you have $300 dollars to spend on a monitoring system you shouldn’t be looking for headphones. Go buy some decent speakers like the Alesis MkII's or something like that. (there are plenty of monitors in the $300 and below price range, check the SOS review section for monitors, esub baby!)

Quote:

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I have a pair of el cheapo speakers from a now deceased rock box that presumably (they are quite light) need an amp to drive. So, given that a quality pair of phones needs a quality headphone amp (yay, more money) how should all of this go together? I need...

A pair of quality headphones.
A quality headphone amp.
A decent amp to run my cheapie monitors.

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There isn’t any point in buying a good amp if you plan on running crappy speakers on it. You are better of buying a used home stereo receiver for $30 and use that as an amp, but this whole post bothers me…. The whole point of using cheap speakers to mix on, is because one can use them as a reference to what the average listener (with average speakers) would hear. These speakers are “tuned” and color the sound a lot, but reference monitors are very neutral and accurate. The only way to present a mix that will play well on ALL types of speakers is to mix on monitors, not tuned speakers, (or headphones but that is a different issue!) I understand that you want to save up for nice speakers... well save up then! Don’t waste $300 on a rinky-dink monitor rig when you are already planning on replacing it. Nice monitors will change your life man! But if I were you I would go and do a bunch of research on the different active monitors out there and pick up a pair. Saving up for a premium system sounds great, but mixing good sounding music on them wont be any easier! Learning how to properly mix takes time, effort and trial/error…dropping $1200 on two speakers wont give you that! Hope this helps

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-Paul Laxer-
[url] http://www.myspace.com/laxerrecordingstudios [/url]

Quote PrinceXizor:

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I'm looking to UPGRADE my headphones, not to continue using the current Sony ones I have. Any recommendations out of the list I posted.

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The more you pay, the better the headphone you get, by and large. I regularly use an early pair of AKG K240s (which I will have to replace soon and will almost certainly get Sennheiser HD650s) when open-backed phones are called for, and a pair of Sony 7509s when I need quality closed backed.

Always try before you buy. Not only do headphones sound different, but they also feel different. Some exert far more presure on your head than others, some are heavy, some have poor headbands, some don't sit comfortably on or over the ears... and since you will probably be wearing them for reasonably lengths of time, comfort is as important as sound quality and resolution.

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What type of amp would you recommend?

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A good one!

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It appears if I spend $150-$200 on headphones, I have $100-$150 left over for an amp. That doesn't seem like much.

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You're right. It's not! You'll have to look for something good in the second hand market.

Quote:

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Thanks for the comments on the cable. I'm going to probably buy a spool of Gotham Audio Cable (300+ feet) and its good to know I can use it for mic cables, line cable, monitor cables, amp cables...everything.

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Oops! As 0VU has pointed out, I was getting so punch drunk with all your questions I missed the one about the cable for amps to speaker. He is, of course, quite right. Twin screened mic cable is not ideal for this application. You should use an appropriate two core high current capacity bespoke speaker cable. The kind of two-core mains cable intended for electric lawnmowers and the like is probably the most cost-effective solution.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks for the posts. Thanks OVU. I forgot to highlight that in my post and ask for clarification to make sure Hugh saw the amp to monitors question. What type of cable are you describing? Is this a special type of cable? Or just a similar construction but with bigger guage wire?

As far as getting a cheap pair of active monitors, I certainly could get a quality budget active monitor (such as the Event TR5's, KRK RP5's, Tapco S5's, Rubicon 5a's) all for around $300. But, in a few other threads, it was mentioned that the quality difference mixing on $350 headphones was TREMENDOUS compared to $300 active monitors.

Thats why I'm considering the idea.

P-X

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My Home Studio Build Thread

D'oh! Somehow I missed your second post Hugh. Probably because I got interrupted at home before I could post and so it was sitting in the "post" screen for a long time.

Can you elaborate some more on what bespoke cable is? I confess, I actually can't determine what you mean! It sounds like it means a cable specifically designed for the task but I could be way out in left field on that one. My friends would be aghast since I'm the ones using words that make THEM scratch their heads. Tit for tat I suppose.

Thanks for the comments on the headphones. What in particular do you like about the Senheiser's over the AKG's and what differentiates the HD580 vs. the 600 vs. the 650. And is it wise to get used ones? One last question, in the $150 range (open back) would the HD580 or the 240df be good (the s is around $100 here).

Anyone else can certainly add their bit of advice as well!

P-X

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My Home Studio Build Thread

Quote PrinceXizor:

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Can you elaborate some more on what bespoke cable is?

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Cable specifically sold as loudspeaker cable. There are lots of variations on a theme, and if you go into a hifi shop they will charge a small fortune for something allegedly made of oxygen free copper smelted gently over roasting dodo birds, coasted in the purest silver shipped in from the silver mines on Beetlejuice and rolled to cylindrical perfection on the thighs of dusky polynesian virgins....

Personally, I've always found twin core mains flex perfectly adequate for all but the most esoteric of systems.

Quote:

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Thanks for the comments on the headphones. What in particular do you like about the Senheiser's over the AKG's and what differentiates the HD580 vs. the 600 vs. the 650.

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I think the up-market Sennheiser phones provide about the best value for money at that quality level. There are a few better systems around but they are hugely expensive and often not very practical or robust. As you go up the Sennheiser range, the quality improves in small but audible ways.

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And is it wise to get used ones?

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I wouldn't. The cost saving probably isn't worth the possible hassle. On the other hand, if you know of a good set at a good price and are happy with how they have been used in the past then the choice is yours.

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One last question, in the $150 range (open back) would the HD580 or the 240df be good (the s is around $100 here).

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They are both competent designs, but the feel and sound different. Try for yourself while listening to some familiar music -- and don't just listen for a few seconds. Try to listen to an entire album or an albums worth of different tracks to make sure you find them comfortable for long periods.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote PrinceXizor:

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I'm looking to UPGRADE my headphones, not to continue using the current Sony ones I have. Any recommendations out of the list I posted given the available pricing and is used a viable option for headphones?

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HD 650 - that's what I use and at the $ price quoted a superb buy - the UK retail price is £300 (well, £299.99 to be precise).

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Thanks for the replys Hugh. Very good info!
As usual...more questions...

If I only get one headphone, should I get closed or open? (I'm certain, part is personal preference too). It seems a tonally accurate closed headphone is probably the best all-arounder as it can be used for tracking as well as mixing and I would think it would be the one I'd want to use to check mic placements and such. Here's an updated list of phones with a few more options.

Senheiser HD 650 = $325 = £185 = OPEN
Senheiser HD 600 = $275 = £155 = OPEN
AKG K240DF = $160 = £90 = OPEN
Senheiser HD 580 = $150 = £85 = OPEN
AKG K240 Studio = $100 = £55 = OPEN

Sony MDR-7509 = $200 = £115 = CLOSED
AKG K271 Studio = $200 = £115 = CLOSED
Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro = $165 = CLOSED
Sony MDR-7506 = $100 = £55 = CLOSED
Senheiser HD280 Pro = $80 = £45 = CLOSED

I guess now would be the time to ask the silly question. Is this really the way I should go? Both OVU and John Willett recommended in other threads to go with high-class headphones over cheap monitors. Any detractors (thinking of you Hugh based upon your headphone mix articles and your headphone reviews).

Would a pair of Sony MDR-7509's and a set of cheap Koss Boom Box speakers (with the appropriate crappy amp) be a better start to a system then a couple of Rubicon 5a's (or similar?)

P-X

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My Home Studio Build Thread

Edited by PrinceXizor (13/01/06 03:17 PM)

There is no doubt that in terms of quality, resolution, accuracy and everything else, you will get a much better standard from headphones than an equivalently priced speaker/amp combination. There isn't a speaker on the planet that can come anywhere near the quality of the HD650s, for example, and cost less than £300!

So, from that point of view 0VU and JW are correct.

However, as we have discussed here before, mixing on headphones is something of an acquired art. Not impossible by any means, but takes a lot of time, practice and critical self-assessment to master. There is also the issue of a significantly increased risk of long term hearing damage becaue it is so easy to crank up good headphones to serious levels and not realise it! Furthermore, headphones and loudspeakers tend to reveal different aspects of a mix, so neither one is entirely satifactory on its own.

Personally, if money is very tight, I'd probably go with the recommendation and by decent headphones to start with while saving funds for a decent monitoring system later. A cheap and nasty set of speakers and amp will just frustrate and annoy -- or it would me anyway.

As for whether to buy open or closed back, it depends on whether you intende to use them for tracking/recording acoustic instruments/voices as well as mixing. If you do, then closed back is the only way and I'd recommend the Sony 7506 or better still the 7509 without hesitation. If not, then open backed would be better, and I'd recommend the HD600 or 650.

But once again -- try before you buy because the practical and aesthetic aspects are very important to your long-term use of them.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Thanks Hugh! Great stuff as always.

I've got one really dumb question left. How do I go about "trying" a specific headphone? Not, how to try it out, but who do I get to try it out? I've never really purchased anything where I got to "try it" for an extended period before I bought it.

P-X

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My Home Studio Build Thread

The main reason I was pushing for the Monitor speakers instead of nice headphones is mainly based off of comfort. I used to make music on my headphones before I got monitors and I always got tangled up with the cord. It gets very annoying. Monitors changed my life! It is so much more enjoyable making mixing decisions on speakers, and not being tied down by headphones. And also, if you plan on collaborating with other people on a project, how do they hear? But I certainly agree that you can get better headphones for the money.

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-Paul Laxer-
[url] http://www.myspace.com/laxerrecordingstudios [/url]