Hello everyone

I'm working on a bit of music at the moment and I'm having trouble getting a distorted guitar to sit in the mix nicely.

It's a pretty simple track, with electric bass, drums (samples) and just a few tracks of guitar, both clean and dirty. It's a Pink Floyd-type thing, and the clean, Strat-type tones are nice and big sounding (bit of compression, delay and reverb) and I'm very happy with them.

The distorted guitar part is a few bars of "power chords" and broken chords, leading into a solo. The sound is quite distorted, but not overly so and the tone itself is nice, in my opinion. The problem is that it seems "small" in comparison with the aforementioned clean guitars. I've added a little compression and eq'd out a little "boxy" notch in the upper-mids which have both helped a bit. Thing is, the boxy frequencies actually seem to contribute quite a bit towards the punch of the solo tones, so I don't want to take away too much.

I've added a slightly reduced amount of the same delay as used on the clean guitar, and again, a little of a short reverb (The same drum plate I've used on the kit). In isolation the tone is nice and punchy, but in the mix it's a little dwarfed - though it's quite loud (almost too loud in fact!)

I suppose another way of describing it is that the clean guitars are really big, warm and encompassing, whereas the dirty guitar is a bit directional and overly focused.

I'm not interested in the double-tracked sound since it's not really stylistically appropriate. Does anyone have any tips for sitting this guitar in the mix and making it a bit fatter, or is it likely to be a fundamental issue with the tone?

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You don't mention any of the equipment your using, or indeed how or what your using for distortion.

You might find this helpful, if plugins/VST are 'acceptable' to you. It's got a good range of 'tweakabiliy' and options, especially for a freebee:

http://www.voxengo.com/product/boogex/

I'm a bit confused about what you're saying here, you indicate that the sound is lacking punch, due to the cut at higher frequencies??

FWIW, here's a couple of tips that may be useful. Reverb can seriously take the "edge" off distorted guitar sounds,so cut the reveb and see if it helps. Clean guitars can sometimes have more apparent "body" because their higher harmonics are not so dominating. A distorted guitar has much more energy higher up the frequency range, so can sound quite fizzy next to a good clean tone. To rectify this, a lot of guitarists apply the "smile" EQ curve on their amps, i.e. turn the bass all the way up, the mids some or all of the way down, and usually the treble all the way up.
Depending on what sort of electric sound you want, drastically boosting 100Hz will give you metallica type thump, or moving up to 500Hz, you get more middly Guns 'n' Roses type sounds. Am assuming from what you describe, you'd be looking for the more bluesy 500Hz boost. The frequencies that tend to cut through on distorted guitar tend to be around 2-4kHz, (is this the sort of region you'v e cut?). This are can be very sensitive, so you may be able to get away with leaving you cuts in, and doing a gentle broad boost around 3kHz, or either side of your cut freq.

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2 blondes walk into a building... you'd think one of them would have seen it?

Indeed, I thought about providing a comprehensive list, but imagined people just seeing a long post, and ignoring it!

Here goes - for the dirty sound:

Ibanez Jem (PUP position 2 for inbetweeny Strat sound) into
Boss compressor (light)
Boss DS Distortion pedal (moderate settings) into
Mesa Boogie DC-3 (cleanish channel)

T'was recorded with Rode NT1A about an inch off the grill, halfway between centre and edge of cone, via (flat) Focusrite Trakmaster added, into Cubase @ 44/16.

Tad more compression added with "endorphin" plugin. Boogex looks good for what it is, but I'm be pretty disappointed if it provided better results than the boogie..

Don't get me wrong, the tone is lovely, but I've made the clean guitars so big that the dirty tone is struggling to compete for "size".

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Quote Dr K:

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I'm a bit confused about what you're saying here, you indicate that the sound is lacking punch, due to the cut at higher frequencies??

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Hi Dr K. I'm not explaining this especially well am I!

Not really - the tone is nice and punchy, and works very nicely with the drums and bass on their own. It's hard to explain, but the warm, clean guitar can be mixed quite loud without being too intrusive, whereas bring the distorted guitar up to the same levels is too loud.

Quote Dr K:

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FWIW, here's a couple of tips that may be useful. Reverb can seriously take the "edge" off distorted guitar sounds,so cut the reveb and see if it helps. Clean guitars can sometimes have more apparent "body" because their higher harmonics are not so dominating. A distorted guitar has much more energy higher up the frequency range, so can sound quite fizzy next to a good clean tone. To rectify this, a lot of guitarists apply the "smile" EQ curve on their amps, i.e. turn the bass all the way up, the mids some or all of the way down, and usually the treble all the way up.
Depending on what sort of electric sound you want, drastically boosting 100Hz will give you metallica type thump, or moving up to 500Hz, you get more middly Guns 'n' Roses type sounds. Am assuming from what you describe, you'd be looking for the more bluesy 500Hz boost. The frequencies that tend to cut through on distorted guitar tend to be around 2-4kHz, (is this the sort of region you'v e cut?). This are can be very sensitive, so you may be able to get away with leaving you cuts in, and doing a gentle broad boost around 3kHz, or either side of your cut freq.

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This is more along the lines I'm talking about. The Boogie has a 5-band "graphic" which was set to a V-shape, but I'll try doing something similar with the eg in Cubase. I do find though, that the Cubase eq tends to be a little naff at anything other than subtle changes, can make things rather artificial, and isn't very attractive-sounding. Guess I'll just have to try harder with it...

You're right about the "bluesy boost" but it's this frequency range that makes things sound a bit boxy and too focused (like a small combo!) whereas I want expansive, lush, and enveloping. (!)

Any other ideas? Shoud I be looking at anything other than the guitar sound itself (ie compression over the master bus or something)?

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Hi,

I'm not sure if it's appropriate for what you're doing, but have your tried rolling off some distortion from the guitar but adding distortion to the bass?

Do you have any examples of the kind of sound you're after?

Ich

Quote Ichabod:

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Hi,

I'm not sure if it's appropriate for what you're doing, but have your tried rolling off some distortion from the guitar but adding distortion to the bass?

Do you have any examples of the kind of sound you're after?

Ich

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I think that reducing the level of distortion may be helpful, but then it ceases to be a "searing" solo! Thinking about it more, I'm pretty sure that the compression inherent in a distorting a guitar is what's making it sound smaller that I'd like. In which case I realise I'm basically stuffed, but I'm trying to get around it!

Soundwise I don't really have any idea of what would be close - if I was pushed I'd say something like the final solo in "Wearing the Inside Out" off the Division Bell, but dirtier, gritier and just Animals-era-funkier. But the sound on that solo is quite enveloping, which is what I'm after.

Have a feeling that the sound in my head isn't something I can acheive! I was hoping there would be a guitar-recording legend out there with some more words of wisdom.

So, a stereo multi-tap delay and a bit of eq it is then...

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I personally would try micing from further away from the grill, one inch sounds pretty close for a condenser. I would have thought about a foot away would be better. Just my opinion though...

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...rubbish at words 'n' stuff.

Yes I've read that. Thing is, I'm not sure if that's to protect the mic from the high levels of your average guitar cab, or for its tonal properties. Do you know?

I experimented and at the modest volume levels I'm recording at that was most attractive sound. Maybe I just need to "turn that bitch up"??? Get it working harder, move the mic back and get some reflections and so on happening.

Hmm. Do love guitars...

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Have you tried a small amp in a tiled bathroom with a condenser in there pointing at a wall?
Push the volume on the amp (or the bitch!) for the distortion rather than using a pedal too much.

Not the most practical solution but a lot of fun and a searing guitar tone 100% guaranteed!

As an aside, I read somewhere that Keith Richards always used to prefer a small amp being driven hard to a big amp.

Have you tried it with everything on 11?

I take it you feel like going back and re-recording the solo? What about trying the ubiquitous SM57 (or a similar dynamic) on the cab and the LDC a bit further away for some room ambience?

I can't remember if you've got a Pod or not. If you have, or else have got something similar, what about using it to record a cleaner tone at the same time and mix that in with the more distorted sound.

What about recording the pre-solo chords twice and then pan them fairly hard left and right. Don't know what type of delay you are using but on the solo a stereo or even ping-pong delay might break up the sound a bit more.

And remember - no dubbly .

had a similar problem on a track a while ago with a nice clean part and then a fairly harsh distorted part, trouble was the change from the clean part to the distorted part sounded a bit awkward and wrong. Anyway, we resolved this by adding an acoustic guitar playing exactly the same parts as both the clean and distorted guitars throughout the entire track. In the final mix we kept the acoustic in the background so it wasnt obvious it was there but it did give the distored parts a great deal of width while retaining its edginess. Playing it through the whole track also helped the change from clean to distorted sound a lot more natural.

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As mentioned previously try and use a dynamic mic (like an SM57/58) close to the edge of the speaker (usually less harsh than the centre). Using a condencer mic further back will catch too much of the room and if it's not properly treated could sound boxy.

There is a tendency to want to state everything in the mix because your worried (wrong word I know) the effect might be lost.( i know i do it) Maybe this is that moment ? Maybe it needs to be pulled back. Give it it's space by cutting eq where the Clean sounds are and rely on a bit (lot ?) more compression to make it sit better. The delay thing is not a bad idea as it will give it a fuller fill in the mix without the swamping of sounds.
Ronnie

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Thanks for the replies, some interesting ideas there. In the end I spent ages fiddling with compressors, reverbs, EQ and delays rather than re-record. I quite liked the tone and I especially like the take, so tried to just fix the mix. One thing I found quite helpful was putting a compressor across the master buss and adjusting the level of the guitar with that on - it seemed to help glue it all together a bit more. Obviously a little compression on the guitar track itself helped even out the level changes, and gentle boosts round about 250Hz gave it a more balanced weight with the clean sounds.

So, it's ok now. Thanks for all the replies though, v useful.

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Quote Mr DiBergi:

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Thanks for the replies, some interesting ideas there. In the end I spent ages fiddling with compressors, reverbs, EQ and delays rather than re-record. I quite liked the tone and I especially like the take, so tried to just fix the mix. One thing I found quite helpful was putting a compressor across the master buss and adjusting the level of the guitar with that on - it seemed to help glue it all together a bit more. Obviously a little compression on the guitar track itself helped even out the level changes, and gentle boosts round about 250Hz gave it a more balanced weight with the clean sounds.

So, it's ok now. Thanks for all the replies though, v useful.

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Well don't forget that too much compression can cause boxiness in itself, although reading your many posts, I doubt that this is the case for you Mr DeB.

Also, it is always helpful to remember the key grequencies to EQ for your instrument. A slight cut or boost of a key feature can sort out a sound pretty quickly.

Reg

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Hey Reg - regards 'the key frequencies' and that harmonica question - electric and acoustic? I reckon the acoustic setting is if you are recording the harmonica straight, and the electric if you are miking up a guitar amp with the harmonica playing through say a green bullet. Possible?

Quote Wonkey Wabbit:

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Hey Reg - regards 'the key frequencies' and that harmonica question - electric and acoustic? I reckon the acoustic setting is if you are recording the harmonica straight, and the electric if you are miking up a guitar amp with the harmonica playing through say a green bullet. Possible?

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Hey Simon

I think you're probably right. Always wondered about that one, but have gotten alot of use out of that frequency table. I've got a load of other useful stuff I use, it's just a matter of getting around to putting the information up.

You reviewing any more new purchases soon?

Reg

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Reg

Haven't bought anything out of the ordinary. I'm in the process of getting one of the new Boss RT-20 stomp pedals (don't have it yet - they always seem to be 'on order') but although I can comment on how it sounds to me, I couldn't compare it to how a real leslie sounds not having a real leslie to hand! The best I could do is compare it to the NI B4 leslie sound. I was half-hoping that SOS would review the RT-20 before I bought it! If it's any good, then it's half the price of a Hughes and Kettner rotosphere - again another comparison that I'd like to do but can't.

Mmmm

I don't have any Leslie's in, in fact I'm pretty limited for second hand gear all round right now. I could offer you an Oberheim OB3 squared for testing but I'm pretty sure you can't separately access the Leslie Sim. Didn't stop them from being a popular stage unit with Los Lobos, BB King and Del Amitri though. The rotosphere is a valve piece isn't it which probably helps its overall sound.

Reg

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I go easy or don't use compression for o/driven guitar. If you "printed" this sound to "tape" you may well find it inflexable at mix time.

Edited by nadsatrebel (01/02/06 06:32 AM)

Well I have got a Viscount DB3 keyboard - similar too but apparently a step back from the Oberheim in terms of the leslie simulation - which is why I wanted something with a better leslie sound, but there didn't seem to be much point paying as much for a H&K pedal as the keyboard cost in the first place!

Quote Wonkey Wabbit:

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Well I have got a Viscount DB3 keyboard - similar too but apparently a step back from the Oberheim in terms of the leslie simulation - which is why I wanted something with a better leslie sound, but there didn't seem to be much point paying as much for a H&K pedal as the keyboard cost in the first place!

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A good point.

What about this instead.

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Quote RegressiveRock:

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What about this instead.

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Well I think you might get a 'boxy' sound from that alright.

Unfortunately a real leslie is on the heavy side and our keyboard player who is using the Viscount (as wonderful and proactive as she is), wouldn't fancy lifting that in and out of her Focus for every rehearsal - if she could move it at all.

When the RT-20 arrives, I'll see if it's worth doing something on it - as I see can compare it to a couple of things.

Quote RegressiveRock:

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Well don't forget that too much compression can cause boxiness in itself, although reading your many posts, I doubt that this is the case for you Mr DeB.

Also, it is always helpful to remember the key grequencies to EQ for your instrument. A slight cut or boost of a key feature can sort out a sound pretty quickly.

Reg

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Cheers for those links Reg, I especially enjoyed the key frequencies one.

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