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Paul Blenn
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Joined: 17/04/03
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Loc: Liverpool, Merseyside, UK
Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Vinylizor]
      #262719 - 04/03/06 10:50 AM
Quote Vinylizor:



Paul, the trouble with all this, is that after checking your website, it's apparent that on a regular basis, you don't have (and probably never have had) experience of a recording situation in which ProTools excels.

You probably never record more than a couple of channels at a time, so the audio on top bug which has plagued Nuendo & Cubase for years won't be too much of an issue for you will it?

Sorry for being a bit harsh on you here, but you've set yourself up for it. If you'd ever had much experience of recording anything with 10 or more tracks at once, then you'd understand one of the great strengths of ProTools - and the real reason it's in all the big studios.

The routing and side chain shortcomings of Nuendo are a big mixing issue. Yes there are ways around them (I know, I've also mixed several albums in SX) but it's limiting. Again, as you probably use lots of pre-recorded loops it's probably not much of an issue to you. However, plenty of your big name users have complained about them on the Nuendo forums.

However, not only are you preaching from high about something you have little or no experience of, but you have the gual to put Digidesign down on price issues! This comes from someone who has spent £1200 on Nuendo. You've spent £800 more than the cost of SX, for a few additional timecode & sync options that are pretty much only applicable in the post world! You certainly have no use for them!
Well maybe you really do need those couple of extra crossfade curves.......

I'll get off my pulpit now!




WOW!!!!! You gleaned all this just from my website? You can tell my entire recording career, succes and failures, my experiences and skills and lack of them just from my home studio setup? Jesus even Sherlock Holmes would have nothing on you - accept to maybe get it right!

Vinylizor - I take no great offence at your generalisation but it's way off the mark.It's also very very arrogant to presume all that by website. Maybe you should introduce yourself here and let us all know exactly why it is you know all this. Incidentally all the big studio's do have pro-tools. I agree. But alot also have a studer 24 track 2" (or similar) some have radar as well and some use Nuendo. These are just tools - like multiple microphones. Pro-tools is NOT the only software to get the job done.

Firstly I am not a sound engineer I am a producer but I can engineer. No Steve Albini or Bob Clearmountain but still get good results. My recording experiences are very extensive, as mainly as an artist and later a producer and basic engineer. I have been in a few situations where Pro-tools, 24 track 2" machines and Nuendo rigs have all been employed as well as smaller studios using Cakewalk and logic setups as well.

I set my home studio setup to do my production work. Not to be a commerical studio. Although I sometimes hire it out as such for extra pennies. We all know the massive costs a large studio charges by the hour and plenty of that work can be done at home far cheaper other than live drums, orchestral or anything else needing large tracks counts or quality rooms.

I will not drop names cause that's just a crass thing to do but the last album I produced, and engineered extensively, was for a brand new singer songwriter who has just been offered a deal by Polydor and they're going with the album I recorded and produced. (all on Nuendo I may add - including live srums, more than 10 tracks at any one time - different studio but still Nuendo)

In the past when working in other studio's I have either used their pro-tools setup or hired in a engineer who has knowledge of it. I have seen that programme fall over on a few occaisions. Tape machines I love but are far too costly to buy, run and maintain so I went down the Nuendo route after seeing it in operation and work perfectly. (days before full PDC)

So I have been with Nuendo since pretty much very early on. Version 1.5 etc. I am well aware of it's shortcomings. And I have adopted my workrounds to suit. I still get to toy with Pro-Tools from time time and as I have said in my earlier posts, if you did read them all, is that's it's an excellent programme. However - and I restate my case - it is utter bollocks to beleive that it is the ONLY programme that can record multiple tracks simultaneaously and be able to do simple things such as punching in and out etc. NONESENSE.

Let me state this - do not judge me or Nuendo by my home setup. I have often been asked to produce acts at other studio's. Two of them I use regularly use Nuendo and SX. Never ever has this programme ever given me, their house engineer, or anyone else who has recorded there any grief resembling anything what has been proclaimed here. Nuendo can and does compete with Pro-tools in my studio, local studios and studio's all around the world.

So Vinylizor tell me which of those big names I mentioned who use Nuendo have complained on the Nuendo forum, or elsewhere, with regards to it's routing and audio on top bug?

How the hell do you know what my experiences are? What gives you the right to come and give anyone a hard time based solely on the home setup? Man how arrogant are you? And how can you proclaim all those big names I put on the list are must be wrong as well as little ole me?

Unbelievable!


Paul



Edited by Paul Blenn (04/03/06 11:30 AM)


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Vinylizor]
      #262745 - 04/03/06 12:22 PM
Quote Vinylizor:

If you'd ever had much experience of recording anything with 10 or more tracks at once, then you'd understand one of the great strengths of ProTools - and the real reason it's in all the big studios.




It's probably in most, but by no means all "big" studios, however defined.

If you really believe it's the only way to record over 10 tracks, you need to get out more. I regularly run 20-plus in Logic and I'm sure I could do 50 if I wanted to, I've just never needed to. (I said in a post above I know of someone who regularly does 72 in orchestral work, using the same i/o - Motu - as I do).

By all means defend PT - it's a good product (if stupidly expensive for what it is). But don't invent facts to support your theory. Pretty well any properly set-up DAW package will track 24 plus without groaning these days.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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UnderTow
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Joined: 27/02/03
Posts: 317
Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Steve Hill]
      #262857 - 04/03/06 05:21 PM
Quote Steve Hill:

Quote Vinylizor:

If you'd ever had much experience of recording anything with 10 or more tracks at once, then you'd understand one of the great strengths of ProTools - and the real reason it's in all the big studios.




It's probably in most, but by no means all "big" studios, however defined.

If you really believe it's the only way to record over 10 tracks, you need to get out more. I regularly run 20-plus in Logic and I'm sure I could do 50 if I wanted to, I've just never needed to. (I said in a post above I know of someone who regularly does 72 in orchestral work, using the same i/o - Motu - as I do).

By all means defend PT - it's a good product (if stupidly expensive for what it is). But don't invent facts to support your theory. Pretty well any properly set-up DAW package will track 24 plus without groaning these days.




This little film should settle things: http://www.euphonix.com/video/system_5-mc_mc_profiles/john_ross_20.htm

UnderTow


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Jake68



Joined: 05/09/04
Posts: 49
Loc: Woking, Surrey
Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Dale Campbell]
      #262947 - 04/03/06 08:35 PM
Strangely enough I think these discussions ARE actually useful. The problem being of course that people are sometimes prejeduce in favour of their tool or against another without any meaningful perspective or real attempt to be objective.

I am a professional songwriter and programmer and producer, (yeah I know that means f-all) what it does mean is that I spend all day sat in front of a computer trying to make money and I often work on other systems. Which gives me a great perspective. I think.

Cubase and Nuendo are both incredible creative tools. In my experience they are stable powerful well designed bits of software. I prefer to use either of them for workflow and intuitive design. I dont know anyone who regularly uses Logic AND other tools that thinks Logic should actually be called Logic. In fact in one studio an old operator that no longer works there took a CD pen to the box and add IL to the letters on the box! It still sits on the shelf in the machine room!

Neither Pro Tools, or Logic can hold a candle to the design of Nuendo or Cubase in my view. But Steinberg cant hold a candle to the intergration, support and reputation of Digidesign, and in fact seem 100% intent on never doing so. Seriously the worst service and attitude towards their customers EVER. Compare their levels of open ness and communication to a company like Sydec (Soundscape) and its totally laughable.

In fact if there are any lasting negative perceptions towards Nuendo or Cubase particularly for being "less than pro" in camps where the tools hasnt actually been seen on use, I think you can place the blame squarely at Steinberg's door. Yeah you can drop in 24 tracks no problems, you can record substantially more than that at any one time and a Nuendo rig costing half as much as a TDM system can offer more tracking and DSP power. If you know what you are doing in terms of hardware config. BUT in the past its been common knowledge that the software has had fundemental problems and the users have been left hanging for quite a period suffering these problems. For instance, the current version suffers from a waveform redraw problem that means that the visual representation of the digital audio gets screwed up for quite a few users when the program is playing back. Meaning you have to press stop and you cant edit in playback up close. In the past we have had problems with clicks in crossfades and I beleive there was something regarding drops and the resulting lengths of the recording audio?...Go to the Nuendo website and check out some of the outstanding issues if you like. Steinberg seems fairly intent on its half hearted attitude towards updates (the last one was 6 months ago?). The prevailing attitude in the forum in question is worse than poor. Its assumed that any critisism of the product and the company will damage its reputation. Damage it more that the list of outstanding problems and the fact the users have to wait so long to get them fixed. Steinberg claim that support is adequate, but of course whats the point of the answer "....oh yes, thats a known issue". I'm afraid that the prevailing reputation of Steinbug rings too true. And only they can do something about it.

Of course we all know that software has bugs. But Pro Tools at least has an extremely strong position and only a product and company that is obviously better can approach that. Yeah, I prefer to use Nuendo, than to use Pro Tools, but that means nothing if I HAVE to use P.T if you get my meaning.

Pro Tools has a seemingly unattainable market position. And it has it for a reason. It may not be the best software for MAKING music from fresh, but if you buy it you are less likely to encounter compatibility issues, you are less likely to suffer machine issues, and its more of completely intergrated tool. I'd like to see more competition in this market, but hey...as above!...

On last note, I dont beleive that all those people use Nuendo exclusively. But its a good tool, there is no reason why you shouldnt record massive track counts and use loads of DSP. But its far more likely that Steinberg will release a version with a shitty bug and then leave you swinging with it for ages. We all know that, the industry knows it, my studio neighbour knows it, and thats why he bought PT.

--------------------
Musician / Writer / Programmer / Producer


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Andi



Joined: 02/09/04
Posts: 1203
Loc: Berkshire, UK
Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Dale Campbell]
      #262979 - 04/03/06 10:13 PM
Must confess that I don't quite get why people keep popping at Paul when all he has said at any point in this thread is that PT isn't the ONLY option. Why is there such a strength of feeling on the issue that a simple statement of fact and a clearly flagged statement of personal preference warrant vitriol?

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowlaudio.com Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing (and articles) at The Dustbowl Audio


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Gelled_Fringe



Joined: 08/11/04
Posts: 442
Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Dale Campbell]
      #263015 - 05/03/06 01:16 AM
i think its because Paul has gone Nuendo-crazy that people are reacting the way they are. i thought Ihad stumbled into a Steinberg (or whoever owns them now) motivational marketing workshop for a second.

Isn't Nuendo just Cubase but 'repackaged' (i.e. £1000 added to the RRP) to 'appeal' to 'professionals'?


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Paul Blenn
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Joined: 17/04/03
Posts: 551
Loc: Liverpool, Merseyside, UK
Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Andi]
      #263129 - 05/03/06 01:08 PM
Quote Andi:

Must confess that I don't quite get why people keep popping at Paul when all he has said at any point in this thread is that PT isn't the ONLY option. Why is there such a strength of feeling on the issue that a simple statement of fact and a clearly flagged statement of personal preference warrant vitriol?




Thank you Andi. The support is appreciated.

Paul Blenn

Edited by Paul Blenn (05/03/06 01:09 PM)


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Paul Blenn
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Joined: 17/04/03
Posts: 551
Loc: Liverpool, Merseyside, UK
Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #263133 - 05/03/06 01:15 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:

i think its because Paul has gone Nuendo-crazy that people are reacting the way they are. i thought Ihad stumbled into a Steinberg (or whoever owns them now) motivational marketing workshop for a second.

Isn't Nuendo just Cubase but 'repackaged' (i.e. £1000 added to the RRP) to 'appeal' to 'professionals'?




Not so.

Firstly all I said to the original post and poster was "You can get Nuendo for £1200. And as there are plenty of very succesful pro's ditching pro -tools in favour of Nuendo. Maybe it's the beginning of the end for a very succesful and excellent but ageing product."

Then the anti Nuendo [ ****** ] started. I am not Nuendo crazy at all. It's just a product I chose to use. I knwo it's downfalls and I am ashamed of the Steinberg support mechanism. I am totally with Jake on this. However my frustration came with a)people who think olny pro-tools will do. and b) The lies about Nuendo.

Has anyone saw that film anger management? Where the guy is falsely accused of going nuts and it spirals into that person eventually going nuts and then they "go see - look for yourself". That's what I feel like in this thread.

Years I have contributed and benefited from this forum and never once ave I ever lost a professional grip and became a troll.

Please before anyone else accuse me of "nuendo crazy" or "you have asked for this" re-read the entire thread and see for yourselves how a honest comment spiralled into personnal chaos.

Paul

p.s. I stand by my priginal claim that PRO-TOOLS IS NOT the only software needed to achieve a professional job. It's always the person who operates it as being the most paramount ingredient. But Cakewalk, Sonor, Logic, Cubase, Nuendo, DP etc will all do the job very well indeed!



Edited by Paul Blenn (05/03/06 01:28 PM)


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Paul Blenn
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Posts: 551
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Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Gelled_Fringe]
      #263142 - 05/03/06 01:25 PM
Quote Gelled_Fringe:



Isn't Nuendo just Cubase but 'repackaged' (i.e. £1000 added to the RRP) to 'appeal' to 'professionals'?




No. Nuendo has more post -production features such as Video import for film scoring etc.

Import and export of AAF (Advanced Authoring Format) integrates the most modern project interchange format which is currently supported by companies such as AVID, Apple, Digidesign, SADiE, Merging, Fairlight and Adobe and Steinberg.

The new Warp to Picture allows for quick matching of audio to picture, including tasks such as fine tuning dialog replacement or aligning music to picture, the new real-time audio stretch algorithm gets the job done quickly and easily.

Integration of Pinnacle Liquid video editing technology is guaranteed by implementation of the X-Send project import from Liquid video editing applications.

Nuendo 3 does not only introduce new features but also continues to improve existing functionality. The RS-422 control (9-Pin) has been further improved to cope with the huge variety of machines used in the market. New import and export options have been added to OMF, AES-31 and OpenTL. Also the Nuendo timeline has been extended to be able to handle projects longer than 22 hours that cross the 24-hour mark.

And more. But, for most, Cubase SX will do perfectly.

http://www.mi-7.net/gfx/items/pdf/Nuendo_Exclusive_Features.pdf

Paul

Edited by Paul Blenn (05/03/06 01:27 PM)


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Hugh RobjohnsAdministrator
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Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Dale Campbell]
      #263464 - 06/03/06 10:42 AM
I think this one really has done the rounds for long enough now.

DAW preferences are much the same as religious beliefs. Same unshakable faiths based on ancient history, (regardless of the true modern facts). Same utter belief in there being only one 'best system' -- and it's always the one they use! Funny that!

In fact, the differences between current generations of DAWs are relatively small and mostly come down to ergonomics and working preferences rather than technical capability or inherent stability.

Systems based on separate DSP cards still have a slight performance edge over native systems, but that gap closes with every new generation of processor (PC or Mac), and native systems coupled with separate effects DSP cards are virtually as powerful.

The Pro Tools system has been around a very long time and so has an enormous user base. At one time (a long time ago) there wasn't much around that could match its capabilities but things have changed dramatically, and PT has lots of extremely strong competition. IMHO much of it is actually rather better than PT, but that's just my opinion...

The real argument is that markets that were once dominated with Pro Tools systems now have a far more varied collection of machines: Fairlight, Pyramix, SADiE, Logic, Nuendo, Cubase, and many, many more. And that's across all aspects of the industry, not just recording studios. Broadcast, location recording, TV post, film post, music production, mastering...

People are buying more intelligently these days, looking for more than just a familiar name. File exchange, workflows, integration between audio and MIDI, working with picture, cost-effectiveness of plug-ins, flexibility of I/O systems, support, user-interface, familiarity to freelancers, cost, and so on are all important considerations in different environments, and different machines are more suited than others to specific requirements.

So rather than arguing about which is best, let's just recognise that they all have slightly different strengths and weaknesses and some systems are slightly better suited to some applications (and user requirements) than others. But the differences really are pretty small. Most projects can be performed on most machines with out any real difficulties given a knowledgeable and experienced user.

I was involved in an industry project to compare the capability of half a dozen leading DAWs to import location material from a similar number of different hard disk recorders and conform and mix the audio to an EDL generated after a video edit. All of the systems were able to do the job perfectly well, and they all did it in roughly the same time frame. There were a few issues with some systems not being able to import certain file types directly, but there were always workarounds.

Let's respect the views of others and recognise the validity of all the leading DAW systems, and stop drawing up utterly pointless battle lines.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound


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websteve
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Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Hugh Robjohns]
      #263819 - 06/03/06 09:56 PM
I second the view (which has probably been said already, but i only skim-read) that the argument is indeed a horses-for-courses one.

Some people like PT for the native hardware or the editing tools it provides. Personally, i don't find the editing very logical, but if i was ever setting up a studio for someone else, i'd set it up based on Pro Tools.

Then i'd stick a copy of Cubase/Nuendo on there for editing and such.

It all depends what you like really doesn't it? If you like PT, you're going to praise it. Same with any of the others.


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The Byre



Joined: 27/03/05
Posts: 1674
Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Dale Campbell]
      #263992 - 07/03/06 11:48 AM
Oh God, is this silly discussion still going around in circles?

I was sitting with another studio owner last year and we got to talking about this that and the other and the other included ProTools.

We baoth agreed that our industry would be better off if PT would just go away. But we both agreed on two things:

1. Customers want to use it, especially in post for TV and film.

2. Name one other editing system that can act as a tape recorder, does variable MIDI mapping, includes MIDI files and tracks, zooms in to sample depth, has a wide range of plugins like Sound Replacer and Beat Detective, as well as all the usual stuff like Autotune etc. and allows for quick and easy editing using a mouse.

And there is the problem (well, it's not a problem for DigiDesign!) There just is nothing else out there that covers all tasks.

Yes, Soundscape is far better as an editor, but no variable MIDI mapping and no MIDI tracks. Yes, Logic is better at MIDI, but as a tape recorder, it stumbles badly. Yes, if Radar did mouse-based editing and varaible MIDI mapping, it would be the only pro game in town.

So there you are! We are all waiting for somebody like Soundscape or iZ-Tech to finish building their systems.

Come on, hurry up!

--------------------
www.the-byre.com No longer Forum Member


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Jake68



Joined: 05/09/04
Posts: 49
Loc: Woking, Surrey
Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Dale Campbell]
      #264063 - 07/03/06 01:13 PM
I made a post that didnt seem to show up, so I'll go again.

Aside from the lack of clarity that comes from extreme personal preference and loyalty however misplaced it could be, I think that threads comparing stuff like this is actually in principle quite useful.
In light of Hughs observations, in which I think he's absolutely right, I think the most pertinant discussion concerns what kind of service people think they are getting from their DAW developers.

As some may know I have strong feelings about the way mine treats its users, but I would welcome a poll into this to find out frankly if they are all just as poor or if there is someway of picking the best service, if all the software does the same thing.

?

Cheers
Jake

--------------------
Musician / Writer / Programmer / Producer


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Steve Hill
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Joined: 07/01/03
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Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Jake68]
      #264287 - 07/03/06 07:25 PM
You are right but how can you do an empirical test? I've asked Emagic (Apple's predecessor owners of Logic) for support a few times and they were great - personal emails from the guys who wrote the code! Apple guys seem to need reminding that they now own Logic, then tell you it's not covered by Applecare except at vast premium prices.

But the point is I've never spent enough time with another sequencer to know if their support is better or worse. Anecdotally I hear that people are largely pleased with Digidesign support, and largely displeased with Steinberg. But it's all old wives' tales really.

Although at some level it penetrates my awareness. I don't think anything would now persuade me to buy a Steinberg product and that is solely because of their service and support reputation (I accept the products are good!). With me, at any rate, it would now take Steinberg a generation to build (rebuild?) any goodwill as a serious company.

Conversely my received wisdom about Digi is that one day I might just grit my teeth and buy the bloody thing! Pricing apart, they do seem to be there when their customers need them. And in a commercial studio with clients twiddling their thumbs, you cannot afford less.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


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ZukanModerator
Zukan


Joined: 12/09/03
Posts: 9349
Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase new [Re: Matcher]
      #264423 - 08/03/06 08:24 AM
Quote Matcher:

I think Digital Performer is also with PT and Nuendo one of the best tools..the guy who owns this outboard gear tracks with dp for example






I've thrown the Rizla away. This pic works quicker and better.

--------------------
Samplecraze
Stretch That Note


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narcoman
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Re: Didgidesign/pro-tools price increase [Re: Dale Campbell]
      #265030 - 09/03/06 09:44 AM
so Byre.
You want it to go away but cant live without it?

bit like a wife.

--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....


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