Quote:

---

demanding the review be hung from the tallest lanyard.

---

That would be quite an achievement even for an Indian rope trick expert ROFLMAO

BTW before a pedant strikes me down for not mentioning the other error… ‘hanged’, not hung.

Sorry for the light hearted interlude James, carry on…

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote:

---

I smell a rat somewhere...... but have no idea where.....

---

So you appear to have changed your viewpoint somewhat Max.

From the Elemental FAQ
Question: Is this partnership because Elemental Audio was in financial trouble?
Answer: No. This partnership is not the result of any financial instability. Elemental Audio was and remains a profitable company and has experienced triple-digit growth each year since its inception.

That would dismiss the earlier talk of piracy being the cause then…

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Elemental Audio have finally published a FAQ about all this here.

It's a classic 'damage-limitation' exercise - they must be kicking themselves they didn't release this information simultaneously with the initial announcement last week.

Regarding iLock they say:
The primary motive for us was the mobility of authorizations for customers who need it. The copy protection was a distant consideration as we believe that virtually every copy protection mechanism can be circumvented, if desired.

Since copy protection isn’t the issue, usability is. What about two versions: iLock for the people who have requested it, serial number (as it was) for those that wouldn’t touch iLock with a bargepole?

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Ive sussed out a copy protection system that can be used with any piece of software. It won't stop someone changing the software and making accessible that way, who ever could? But this is absolutely bullet proof. I just need an engineer to design it. It will also require a hardware dongle type device. But you only have to buy this once and it will work for anything. Hehe, can you see what it is yet?

Theres no point interrogating me either.

Here's a clue, it only works for software you can download, and it requires that the vendor, or more likely a trusted third party maintain a database Oh and the Cops could use it too

Quote:

---

Elemental Audio have finally published a FAQ about all this here.
It's a classic 'damage-limitation' exercise - they must be kicking themselves they didn't release this information simultaneously with the initial announcement last week.

---

Not a single mention of WHY they re-badged all their plugins with those bloody awful 'pro sounding' names though.


--------------------
Web Site | Twitter | iTunes

Steve, if your MBA courses taught you that publishing your intent to acquire a company or its assets in advance of actually doing so is a good idea then I suggest that you should ask for your money back.

Max - that's a Jeet Kune Do answer, not a Karate answer.


A.

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

If RN's articles are deliberately provocative that is really teenage and it irritates me. The problem is I know a lot about some things so if someone is winding me up with false information, fine, I can tell. But I am far from an expert on digital recording so I am inclined to believe most of what I read about it as correct so that I can learn. I also sense that HRJ was far more lenient in his defence of RN than he is with others, such as forum members who suggest analogue is better than digital. Perhaps RNs future articles could start with :
"RN enjoys being provacative, some of the following may or may not be true".

I have changed how I record after reading posts by Neil Wight, Massive Mastering, Hugh Robjohns among others, I hope they weren't winding us up for fun.

Incidently, I think RNs wonderful recordings were made with analogue, not digital - but I may be wrong.

I would have liked to have seen this question answered:

Question: what was the justification for the 400% price increase?

Answer: ……………………………………………………………

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Tim Rainey:

---

Quote:

---

I smell a rat somewhere...... but have no idea where.....

---

So you appear to have changed your viewpoint somewhat Max.

---

errr yes, to a degree, that's what's supposed to happen when one acquires new information... you re-assess your position in the light of new evidence..

it's called learning, or being flexible....

I'm STILL in favour of the iLok move... it makes sense to me... and indeed, i'm one of the people it benefits directly.

There's no mention of what they get out of the deal.... what incentive there was to go through with it.

As it stands, they've posted a load of denials, and some side issue explanations, but not one thing detailing who got what out of whom, for what, and why.

if you see what i mean??

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Quote Max The Mac:

---

I
if no assets or rights of any kind were sold, leased or assigned, and they retain such complete control, then exactly how does RND fit into the picture at all???

I smell a rat somewhere...... but have no idea where.....

---

Yeah sooo weird - and as someone mentioned...

Horse, Door, Stable, Bolted.

PR Disaster

even in my now relatively calm and sober assessment of this situation I am still perplexed at the astoundingly incompetent handling of this 'Transition' 'Partnership' 'Takeover' (whatever).

It seems to me like the boys over at EAU are either in Denial or that they have some latent Jeckle and Hyde complex that is revealing itself.

I have confidence in and am pleased about the 'free' Macintel crossgrade for the plugs which I own, it obviously and quite rightly imho concerns me that in order to 'stay' with my plugs I am going to have to buy into the Roger Nichols 'Experience' somewhere down the line.

I have no problem with iLok but I tell you one thing now - If I have to pull up several instances of 'Frequelizer' 'Pre-equalizerer' or 'FREAKER-IZER' and have to stare at his barmy interfaces with his name all over them then I will most definately look for something else. And that is besides what we will probably have to pay to get the 'post' macintel transition upgrade.


Smell a rat Max?..... I smell a Dead Buffalo.

Question: So, what *is* the actual relationship between Elemental Audio and Roger Nichols Digital?

Answer: Roger Nichols Digital will act as the exclusive distributor and licensee of Elemental Audio products. This means that future products that Elemental Audio produces will likely be distributed by Roger Nichols Digital. This is not guaranteed, however. Elemental Audio could, at some point, develop and sell products independent of Roger Nichols Digital; that will depend on several variables.

So as exclusive distributor and licensee he gets to 're-brand' the already 'high-quality' clean, simple understated interface into a vulgar, garish, brash new one? and add - ADOLESCENT new names!!

See how I am getting Angry-izer again, I'd better have a cup of tea.

Please ' "at some point, develop and sell products independent of Roger Nichols Digital" - Please!

Quote UnderTow:

---

Mr Nichols should be writing about what he knows. Not stuff that has evolved so much since he was up to date. (Although dither has always been part of digital audio so maybe he never really was aware of the technical details).

---

If you go back in time to the days when RN was using early digital recorders you will find that the use of dither wasn't well understood and many recorders had no dithering at all. So maybe he just prefers the sound of undithered digital audio.

RN is just one of many respected names who don't understand all the ins and outs of technolgy. That's probably the reason why he bought the rights to the EA plug-ins in the first place. He's just the marketing man who thinks that there's an opportunity to sell them in a different way.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Feefer:

---

Maybe you missed the recent review of Lounge Lizard 3, penned by a certain Martin Walker? Turns out he was also a contributor of "signature" patches that are included in the price of the software.. So obviously he must have SOME conflict of interest here? Was he paid for it? To his credit, he properly disclosed his relationship in his review (which is sufficient from an ethical standpoint, IMO).

I actually bought the software after reading the glowing review, but now am left wondering how he could've programmed so many signature patches and played the software for so long without having noticed a quite OBVIOUS software bug that creates an unnatural build-up in distortion while playing with the sustain pedal depressed? Hmm..

---

Sorry guys and gals - I know this is off-topic, but for obvious reasons I have to answer this slur

Feefer - someone else asked this, so I took the opportunity to explain my innocence in some detail in last month's (May 2006) issue in Crosstalk. Here's what I said there:

www.soundonsound.com/sos/may06/articles/crosstalk_0506.htm

"Over the years I've contributed patch banks for a number of different pieces of software, including Wave Arts' MasterVerb and DelayDots' Spectral Suite and Spectrum Worx, plus Applied Acoustics' String Studio and Lounge Lizard EP3, all of which have subsequently been bundled with the products.

Now, I could understand your concern if I were being paid for this work, but in none of these cases did any money change hands. I created all of these presets during the course of reviewing of each product, simply because I was so impressed with it that I typically spent extra time beyond the review period working on more 'individual' sounds for my own music. Having done this, it only seemed fair to forward such endeavours to the developer, so that they could make them freely available to others who might find them useful.

The only difference with String Studio and Lounge Lizard EP3 is that I was initially offered beta versions of the software so I could begin my reviews a couple of weeks before the final release date. Unlike some other magazines, here at SOS we don't review beta versions as if they were the final product in order to get our reviews published first. Nevertheless, initially working with a beta version prior to getting the finished product does give us the chance to spend even more time getting to know a piece of software, and I was so impressed with both of these that I'd already finished a preset bank before the final release version was signed off. This is the only reason why a bank of my sounds could be included with these products when first shipped.

So, far from indicating a lack of editorial impartiality, you can be confident that if product ships with a bank of presets that I have designed, it means that I was so impressed with it that I went beyond the call of duty in the course of my review!"

As for the sustain build-up - perhaps this is due to the way I play, but no, I didn't notice it during the course of the review.

I hope this puts everyone's minds at rest

Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Quote:

---

errr yes, to a degree, that's what's supposed to happen when one acquires new information... you re-assess your position in the light of new evidence..

it's called learning, or being flexible....

---

Max, I’m not a child, please don’t patronize me.

Quote:

---

I'm STILL in favour of the iLok move... it makes sense to me... and indeed, i'm one of the people it benefits directly.

---

I can understand how an iLock benefits YOU, and people like you, but I think it safe to say that the iLock doesn’t benefit the majority.

Also, having to pay a huge premium for the iLock version? Even if I did accept the iLock philosophy, I wouldn’t pay the sort of price RND is charging.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Martin Walker:

---

As for the sustain build-up - perhaps this is due to the way I play, but no, I didn't notice it during the course of the review.

---

I tried this.,,

if you play "properly" a la Pianist... and actually lift your foot completely off the sustain pedal for much of the time , it's not an issue.

if you leave it on the pedal all, or indeed, most, of the time, it is an issue.,

I bet sufferers don't take kindly to being told it's their piss poor technique

i am guilty of occasionally using the sustain pedal as a kind of reverb thing.... and it's this type of use that i think causes the problems .


but I'm a guitarist, so i have an excuse

Max

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Tim

you infer that the price hike is BECAUSE OF iLok which is almost certainly not the case, you are actually getting a price hike AND iLok. Starts to look like better value by the minute! You can even get a BOX now!!!

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Having slept on this issue overnight, I think I have got to the heart of it.

It's all about spelling.

Americans say "-izer"

Brits (and Aussies etc) say "-iser"

So none of these new-fangled plug-ins are intelligible to a non-US audience, and therefore the potential market has been reduced from 6 billion buyers to about 295 million.

That's a very big drop in sales.

Chris/Feefer: I have no issue at all with Martin Walker declaring an interest so we all know where we stand. I have a very big issue with RN not doing the same.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote James Lehmann:

---

Elemental Audio have finally published a FAQ about all this here.

---

"Question: Why did Elemental Audio decide to partner with Roger Nichols Digital?
Answer: Roger Nichols is an accomplished audio engineer and producer. We believe that our audio software development expertise coupled with Roger Nichols' engineering and production experience make for a great relationship."

Question: Yes, but what about his global distribution network? His business experience? His marketing and PR skills? How does all that improve your offering?

Question: Your FAQ makes no mention of the overnight severe price hike? Is that not actually a fairly frequently asked question too?

Question: Why are you treating us all like imbeciles? I don't buy goods from people who do that to me.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

'Elemental Audio was and remains a profitable company and has experienced triple digit growth each year since its inception'.(from the EA FAQ)

Triple digits? Like two hundred quid or something?

--------------------
www.mikeandersonmusic.co.uk

Quote Andi:

---

Tim

you infer that the price hike is BECAUSE OF iLok which is almost certainly not the case, you are actually getting a price hike AND iLok. Starts to look like better value by the minute! You can even get a BOX now!!!

---

“Also, having to pay a huge premium for the iLock version?”

That is the only version currently available Andi, it doesn’t follow that I implied or even believe that iLock is the only reason for the price hike.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Feefer:

---

Hey, weren't you the guy who COMPLETELY missed the point of RN's article on the benefit on transferring files via audio vs. digital?

---

It seems you completely misunderstood the article. That was just background to introduce his theories. I won't go into the details of all that again.

Quote Feefer:

---

I know he confused you, daring to include two different discussions in the same article, but I recall that you so completely missed the ENTIRE point of his article when you got so hung up on the technical minutiae (lost "the forest for the trees").

---

Was it two dicsussions or not? You are contradicting yourself.

Quote Feefer:

---

Seriously, I'm all for technical accuracy, but if you think articles in SOS are some substitute for college level coursework in the principles of digital audio theory, you're expecting a bit too much for a music mag.

---

Of course I do not but that doesn't mean that SOS should contain bollocks masquerading as technical epxlanation.

Quote Feefer:

---

While technical accuracy is admirable, the real world doesn't work like that, and the gig goes to the guy who gets results, and isn't just always technically correct.

---

But this isn't a recording or mixing gig. This is a load of nonsense pretending to be a technical epxlanation for some alledged phenomenon.

Quote Feefer:

---

The bottom line is that theory, whether electronics or music theory, serves as a model to help us conceptualize that which can't be seen, and to help us more forward. Creative thinkers are willing to expand and explore alternative ways of thinking, challenging the limits of "what we know" instead of dismissing anything that dares deviate from what they were taught.

---

Rubbish. You have to understand the current theories to be able to challenge them. Mr Nichols doesn't.

You obviously won't take my word for it so let me quote Hugh Robjohns for you:

Quote Hugh Robjohns 17/05/06:

---

However, as has been established in the other thread that Steve mentioned, the explanation Roger Nichol's offers for his subjective impressions of an improved bass resolution is... erm... seriously flawed!

---

UnderTow

Quote thejazzassassin:

---

'Elemental Audio was and remains a profitable company and has experienced triple digit growth each year since its inception'.(from the EA FAQ)

Triple digits? Like two hundred quid or something?

---

Lol. They most probably mean triple digit percentages growth.

UnderTow

Tim

my point is simply that the products have increased in price AND they have iLok, I took your inference to be that they have increased in price BECAUSE they have iLok.

If not then apologies, in fact apologies anyway if it reads like I'm critisising in any way - not intended; it's just that this thread has become so emotional over a bit of software that I suspect that if RN annouounced tomorrow that he had discovered a way to end war, infant mortality, world hunger and 3rd world debt in a week, and would give it to the world free of charge, he's still be crucified for it.

No offence meant.

A.

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Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

The world of business is tough isn't it?

I am looking forward to the Wendeliser plugin. Terrible name, good sound library.

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

No problem Andi, I didn’t see what you wrote as criticism and I’m certainly not annoyed; I just wanted the meaning of what I wrote to be clear. The written word can be so hard to interpret…

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Max The Mac:

---

Quote Martin Walker:

---

As for the sustain build-up - perhaps this is due to the way I play, but no, I didn't notice it during the course of the review.

---

I tried this.,,

if you play "properly" a la Pianist... and actually lift your foot completely off the sustain pedal for much of the time , it's not an issue.

if you leave it on the pedal all, or indeed, most, of the time, it is an issue.,

I bet sufferers don't take kindly to being told it's their piss poor technique

Max

---

Oh dear - this wasn't my intention at all. What I meant was that everyone plays differently, and despite playing LL3 lots and lots I haven't noticed this bug (now acknowledged by AAS by the way) at all when playing - not during the review period, or since.

In fact, I've just had to resort to downloading a thread from the AAS forum describing a specific patch and sequence of notes to play that's supposedly guaranteed to make it happen. This is truly ironic, as I've got a reputation among developers for discovering bugs that no-one else seems to spot


Martin

--------------------
YewTreeMagic

Quote noiseconjecture:

---

Quote Doublehelix:

---

Quote Andi:

---

Here, where did Double Helix get that unofficial Grahamlin from

---

It's a secret!!! Shhhhh...!!!

---

No its not - he got them here. Look in the source code.

---

Actually you provide a link to my web page storage area, that is not where I *got* them, but where I *store* them.

You can buy graemlins pretty much anywhere commercially, and there are some good collections available for free around the internet. Do a Google for "graemlins" and you will get a boatload of stuff.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Martin, it wasn't intended in any way other than an interesting aside... merely to comment that i'd tried it after a client had raised the issue..

it may or may not be the cause of it, but it was more or less how i checked it out

under normal keyboard playing circumstances I probably wouldn't have found it at all.... as i don't use sustain pedals on them very often, I had to play at the (midi) piano, where i do use it a lot, (to cover my appalling technique) to find it .....

maybe I should just have Pm'ed it... as it's not actually relevant to the subject matter at hand....

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

I personally have considered Double Helix to be a bit "Flash" since the "2 lava lamps" incident of a couple of years ago.

'nuf said!

A.

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

RND forums are back online. RN has posted on page two of this thread:

http://www.ioforums.net/forums/view_topic.php?id=290&forum_id=22&page=1

There is also a name change petition too:
http://www.ioforums.net/forums/view_topic.php?id=292&forum_id=15

FWIW, I couldn’t post using Firefox, had to resort to IE.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Actually, I wasn't too keen on EA's original names (other than Inspector!) and I can understand RND wanting to make them a bit more "musician friendly".

Good to see he's finally responded too.

Quote Andi:

---

I personally have considered Double Helix to be a bit "Flash" since the "2 lava lamps" incident of a couple of years ago.

'nuf said!

A.

---

Hehe... and I still have those 2 lava lamps!!! Wouldn't be a *real* studio without them, right???

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

And I still have only one, but mine's radio controlled!

--------------------
Andi, www.thedustbowl.net Mixing, Mastering, Audio Editing at The Dustbowl Audio

Quote Andi:

---

And I still have only one, but mine's radio controlled!

---

Oh man, I am jealous now!

I just read the Roger Nichols response, and I think it was fair and well thought-out. I am glad that he finally addressed this in person.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Beer was nice, and apologies fro being Grumpy, last night!

G

--------------------
PA stuff on FB

Quote Doublehelix:

---

I just read the Roger Nichols response, and I think it was fair and well thought-out.

---

To a point, maybe, BUT -

"2) We are in the middle of adding features, improving those that exist, and creating TDM versions and versions for other hardware platforms.

3) RND purchased the rights to the Elemental plug-ins because I think they are the best available and will add to the future line-up to be offered by RND.

4) RND will be funding further developement of Elemental products as well as using Elemental to add their expertise in the developement of our plug-ins.

5) I am paid rather well for engineering and producing and do not need to rip off customers who buy plug-ins."

'Scuse me if I'm being thick here but don't you do these things BEFORE you increase the price? It's like Ford tripling the price of the current model so they can invest in developing the next model, which you might not even want to buy once you see it....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

'Scuse me if I'm being thick here but don't you do these things BEFORE you increase the price? It's like Ford tripling the price of the current model so they can invest in developing the next model, which you might not even want to buy once you see it....

---

well, it is true there is a sucker born every minute...

that's a lot of marks, i mean customers....

Quote Steve Hill:

---

'Scuse me if I'm being thick here but don't you do these things BEFORE you increase the price? It's like Ford tripling the price of the current model so they can invest in developing the next model, which you might not even want to buy once you see it....

---

Great point, and I have to agree 100%. I guess my point was that at least he addressed the issue directly rather than hiding under a rock or behind an alias. His response was metered and not filled with (too much) emotional baggage considering the beating he has been taking the last few days.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Max The Mac:

---

Quote Martin Walker:

---

As for the sustain build-up - perhaps this is due to the way I play, but no, I didn't notice it during the course of the review.

---

I tried this.,,

if you play "properly" a la Pianist... and actually lift your foot completely off the sustain pedal for much of the time , it's not an issue.

if you leave it on the pedal all, or indeed, most, of the time, it is an issue.,

I bet sufferers don't take kindly to being told it's their piss poor technique

i am guilty of occasionally using the sustain pedal as a kind of reverb thing.... and it's this type of use that i think causes the problems .


but I'm a guitarist, so i have an excuse

Max

---

FWIW, the "velocity build-up" issue represents a flaw in the AAS model, affecting all presets. As someone pointed out on the AAS forum, the developers attest a certain fondness for the DX-7 keyboard, which is problematic when programming velocity response on external devices since it outputs a limited MIDI velocity range (limited to 100, I believe). Been there, done that back in the 1980's, after programming a Yamaha TX-816 from a DX-7, only to be left scratching my head when the TX-816 sounded so dramatically different when driven by another MIDI controller.

In fact, I still have an old DX-7 around, and verified the velocity build-up issue with LL is nowhere as problematic or noticeable when using a DX-7 vs. a properly-designed MIDI controller. Is that the CAUSE of the problem with the LL model? I dunno, but it's worth considering, and an astute pick-up by one of the LL forum readers. Worth considering...


@@@

Martin, my point was (and is) that some here are willing to string up RN for supposed ethical violations because he dared to write a guest column (not even a REVIEW) without disclosing to SOS editors that he might *gasp!* buy rights to distribute a software plug-in in the future... My point wasn't to grill you, just to point out the lunacy of such an unrealistic expectation for foretelling future events, not to mention being held to a much higher ethical standard than even the reviewers.

As someone already pointed out in this thread, the easy answer is to have articles written by people with NO professional experience or potentially entangling ties and relationships with manufacturers, just to remain lily-white and pristine from such ethical issues. Obviously not even a reasonable alternative. Like I said upfront, you disclosed the association in the article, and that suffices for me.

Now, I may not necessarily agree with the decision of allowing them to use your name as "signature sounds", primarily because it created the APPEARANCE of conflict and some sort of endorsement arrangement, and that serves no purpose but ego gratification and worse, to raise questions of this type. For if your intent was simply to unleash the presets for the benefit of humanity, it certainly could've been done without needing to attach anyone's name to them.

But whatever: that's you call and your reputation, and as I said upfront you disclosed the association in the article, so I have no beef with it... Just pointing out that the conspiracy theorists can use something like that to hatch a motive (e.g. velocity build-up issue), as they've done with RN and his guest column. The point was to show how ludicrious such attempts can be, not to actually do the same.


@@@@@


But Max, are you saying playing a single note repeatedly with the sustain pedal down constitutes poor technique, as does a trill? Rolling on octaves with your left hand with the sustain pedal down is poor technique for electric piano? Wow, I'm sure Rhodes masters like Ray Charles, Bill Evans, Chick Corea and Stevie Wonder will be glad to learn of this (at least those who aren't dead).

I suspect Max is making a subtle reference to my prior post about the classically-trained guy who imposes his view of "proper" musicianship on the rest of the world. Please Max, tell me it's meant as irony/sarcasm. Although, we can't completely exclude that the last sentence in his post might have something to do with this statement....

Chris

--------------------
1.5GHz Al 17" Powerbook G4 (2.0GB RAM, Hitachi 60GB 7,200 rpm drive), running Logic Pro 7 under OSX 10.4.5