Quote James Lehmann:

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MIX 21: "Jumpeyspyder Start needed trimming, is the guitar chorused, drums absent, too much reverb on sax which also moves around stereo field during the song, the stop and start edits would get you fired from the job by the band!

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James thanks for taking the time to listen
Yes, I did add some chorus to the guitar, I also duplicated the track and added some gentle amp simulation to brighten the guitar on one part then I panned the two parts 40% Left & Right to add a little stereo interest.
(my personal taste probably getting in the way of the musicians intention here!! )

I'm not sure what I've done wrong on the start and end edit could you be more specific thanks ??

Quote dunch:

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Mix 21 - Jumpeyspyder: Quite sparse sounding mix, drums pretty low, kick quite prominent. For me, the guitar is a little too bright for the jazz stylee, and ducking the bass in and out was too dramatic an effect, more of an interruption than a musical statement.

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Dunch, fair point on the guitar I knew I was being a little naughty
I only used gentle compression and a some EQ on the bass I'll have to check my mix again to find the problem you're talking about.
Thanks for the comment I appreaciate you taking the time.

Many thanks both for the comments.

In answer to James, I agree, it's not perfect, but I was sort of aiming for the things you have said you dislike, as I was comparing it to the early Ella recordings which were often made in similar conditions on similarly badly placed equipment. I don't know whether that changes the way you view it at all. Interestingly, I removed the Kick Drum track and no one seems to have noticed. The only Kick Drum sound is bleed into the other microphones.

In answer to Dunch, it's interesting that you found the horns to dominate whereas James found them too thin, I guess the vocals is personal taste. Being young I think I may have grown up in an era where we 'hide' the vocals behind the band as many modern singers are truly awful (definitely not the case here!). The lack of energy from the drums was indeed a concious decision as they were too busy in my opinion. However, if you listen to old records of this sort of music, it is not unusual to here busy, quiet drums (often only mic'ed with overheads or not at all) over the modern preference for extremely closely mic'ed drums that are necessarily less busy.

Anyway, all in all a very interesting and enjoyable exercise, can't wait for another. Thanks to all involved.

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Music is the only noise for which one is obliged to pay.
(Attrib. to Alexandre Dumas)

Quote Jumpeyspyder:

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I'm not sure what I've done wrong on the start and end edit could you be more specific thanks ??

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Sorry - wasn't clear. It's the way you cut the bassline suddenly when she sings "Well I lost my heart" around 0.58"!

Quote dunch:

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Mix 1 - James Lehman: For me the reverb tail on the vocal was a bit long, and too much reverb overall (but then I generally mix drier than most people). Cymbals tend to dominate the drums, maybe a result of the compression settings used? Also the kick seems missing in action?

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Agree on the reverb thing - now fixed in my newest version. Was the other way around with the drums - I selectively compressed the toms using a frequency conscious compression to stop them sticking out so much. But as you and others have pointed out the cymbals were a pain for all of us - maybe they were still too loud in my mix! The kick is most certainly in there but pitched very low so you may need a sub to hear it - check out the end of the sax solo around 2.00" for some kick action. I think it sounds pretty nice actually and does help the groove in places, bearing in mind what we started with, although I'd agree it isn't all that natural and won't be heard on many systems.

Quote Hugh:

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I removed the Kick Drum track and no one seems to have noticed.

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This was a very possible option I discussed with the band leader for all the tracks after we both agreed the kick sound was awful. Obviously many great jazz recordings have no such mic, but given that there would only otherwise be a pair of overheads (and not very good ones at that) I suggested using the spare track for a kick, as a shite sound here can really hinder a recording but a good one can help it subtely.

I'll let Dave take it from here!...

"Don't get me started on the [ ****** ] kick drum. My position was to take the head off, put a pillow in and close mic it. OR cut a hole in the drum head. But no... [text removed by JL for prudence, suffice to say the matter was 'discussed' with the apparently rather purist drummer!]. The bass drum sounded like CRAP to my ears so I knew we were not going to get any better on tape. The mic was a good kick drum mic, but again, CRAP in CRAP out. Sorry about that, there will not be much you can do about that."

The crazy thing is there's other quite funky tunes in the session that desperately need that kick to be groovin', so not having a decent kick to work with was a major handicap and I think adversely affects the rhythm of these pieces - something you would have thought a drummer would be keen to bolster! Anyway, after a couple of hours work I think I was able to salvage something of a compromise - I hope the band are happy with it!

Not to hijack this thread (and much to James's chagrin, my only pair of SDC's are NT5's! ) anyway...I anticipate a similar problem with our drummer. It's possible he may be a little more responsive to the "here's how your drums sound recorded...crap isn' it?" line of reasoning. But, can you cut a hole in the bass drum head yourself? How do you go about doing this? Does it affect the tonality? Etc.

P-X

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My Home Studio Build Thread

Hi all,

Thanks for the comments James, the point about cutting the reverb tail is fair point - i was just a little overeager when i trimmed it in Audition - the Cubase mixdown has the full ending.

As for bass, i always thought my setup was bass-light (behringer 2030As) but on playing all the other mixes, they seem to have overpowering bass, so i toned it down on mine, maybe just a little too much.

It just goes to show - a simple mix with little in the way of processing can still sound good, (although i did turn the kick way down....)

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David Lewthwaite, www.lewty.org.uk, dave@lewty.org.uk

James/Darren

Any chance of letting us all do another mix in light of the comments and posting them again to see if we are capable of self-improvement? If the comments are correct and we take note then we should end up with 24 identical mixes!

Also, where's the Paul White mix rescue version?

Quote Wonkey Wabbit:

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Any chance of letting us all do another mix in light of the comments and posting them again to see if we are capable of self-improvement? If the comments are correct and we take note then we should end up with 24 identical mixes!

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Well, it's up to Darren of course, as he's the guy who has to do all the leg-work here! But I would say can you not post your own mix somewhere? I think that's what I'll do and just link it to this thread.

The deadline was fairly arbitrary but I didn't want the whole thing to drag on too much.

At the same time I think it's great that folks (including me!) have gone back and remixed the thing - it seems this project has really engaged people on a very productive and positive level. I'm quite proud of that!

What are people's thoughts of making this a subscription series - just enough to cover costs of hosting, preparation of material, remuneration of band's expenses, etc. That way we should be guaranteed a decent spread of material on a relatively regular basis. I think that this is so important, because as CharlotteL says, it's actually remarkably difficult to get hold of decent, royalty free material, so we all end up spending more time buying more equipment than actually using it.

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Music is the only noise for which one is obliged to pay.
(Attrib. to Alexandre Dumas)

I'd be up for it.

Quote stemwinder:

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Also I've added a "stream all" option for anyone who fancies an endurance test ;-)

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He-he - anyone dared click that yet? LOL!

James - Well done: A marathon effort! Must have been . . . an interesting experience, doing all that listening. As to your comments, I thought they were very fair.

I suppose a few comments from me might be useful, about my effort:

Yes, the kick was horrid in my mix, but masochistically, I kind of liked it like that: I hear so many jazz kicks that sound like poo!

Interesting point about the brass being too loud – I suppose from a singer's point of view that's true, but when listening to a band, the brass will almost dominate a singer sometimes. It's one of the exciting things about that kind of band, that rawness and power of the brass.

I basically mixed it to make it sound a bit like a band on stage, including the inevitable slightly 'puddingy' and cuddly bass. In retrospect, I'd have tarted up the kick a bit, and done some automation on it – basically to have it louder, and a bit (!) nicer.

There was mention of the noise on the end. Well, I nearly put in the count at the beginning as well! I'm weird like that...

Guy

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PA stuff on FB

Quote Guy Johnson:

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James - Well done: A marathon effort! Must have been . . . an interesting experience, doing all that listening.

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Yes - was quite an effort, but still fun and I felt it was the least I could do given I had created this monster in the first place!

So far only me and "dunch" seem to have made it all the way through - any other takers?

Perhaps because I'm on holiday right now I'm the only one who's had the time! LOL!

Hi guys

Just to let everyone know my mix was done while I was waiting to be picked up and to go to a function yesterday so was a little rushed. So much so that I haven't even listened to the MP3 file which apparently has a glitch. So I'm sorry about that - I ran out of time.

Anyway the mix was done in Tracktion and also mastered in Tracktion with the Final Mix mastering plugin via my RME Fireface into Quested F11a monitors. I haven't done a lot to the tracks other than to compress the drums a bit plus boost a little in the highs for the cymbals, work like hell on the kick sound with both compression and EQ, EQ the bass slightly to take away some of the muddiness (I'm surprised that it was DI'd because it doesn't sound like a DI'd track but being a jazz player he's probably had the same strings for the last 20 years!), compress slightly and add reverb to the horns as a group plus some group automation, rolloff a bit of bottom on the guitar and boost slightly in the 1K range (also more automation), vocal - already overcompressed I felt, all I did was add a bit of verb - probably a tad too much.

I must listen to it sometime.

All in all a lot of fun and would love to do more sometime.

Cheers
Graham
www.lakesiderecordingstudio.co.nz

Quote James Lehmann:

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It's the way you cut the bassline suddenly when she sings "Well I lost my heart" around 0.58"!

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Thanks James (eagle ears) this must be what dunch was refering to - I didn't do that on purpose.
I'm not sure what happened..

..Maybe it was the bass fairies they must have stolen a few notes

OOops I must have taken a few note out when I was 'cleaning' the bass

I've listened to nearly half of the tracks and I intend on listening to them all
James & Darren this has been lots of fun thanks making this happen!

Can I just add my voice to the more Mix-off projects please!

In the interests of hard work, I've gone and listened to them all. All comments made in the best possible spirit! The mixes I liked the most I put an asterisk after the blurb. Here goes:

James Lehmann: Nice vocal and 'verb – but I'd have a bit less of the reverb, though. I'd like more of the lower toms and more kick, even if it is a bit odd: Good enough fer jazz! Nice brass, but I'd have a wee bit more bite to the 'bone. The song swings nicely. *

Vinylizor: The voice is too compressed in the beginning, I think, the 'well I lost my heart' and the other bits were the band gets louder: does not sit with the band. I love the deeper breathy notes on the voice. I liked the drums, and the brass.

Ah-Q: Instantly like the voice (but a tad too much?) with that touch of reverb. Nice balance, except for me the guitar was too out front and thin. Again I'd like more drums.

Musicproject: Startling ambience, not too keen! The voice seems to disappear when the band gets going. Don't like the ambience on the brass. I think because these ambiences are a bit OTT and arn't on the drums or bass... The drums I like, apart from that bloomin' crash we all had probs with. The "am I" at the end was the most stomped-on yet. ( I thought Lime, David L and James were good there )

Hugh Conway: Not sure about the reverb on the voice - it calls too much attention to itself, and the voice a bit loud? I like brass and guitar coming in. Again, too much rev. on the sax and on the 'bone. I like the drums.

Dunch: Mmm. Nice and . . . Close! Like the drums, too. This close mix is my fave of the genre. The stick hits come across well! I'd like more of the 'blappy' brass bits. *

David Lewthwaite: Intro nice vocal, but I'd have a bit more guitar. Reverb sticks out sometimes on the vox. I found the sax a bit honky, and a nice smooth 'bone. The drums swing nicely. The cymbals get chopped. *

Stemwinder : Nice powerful beginning, and nice drums too, and I like the low notes on the voice. Good brass. The band lollops along well. *

Mr Tom: Good beginning, but too much guitar for me. Nice rhythm brass. The 'bone was a bit too plummy for me.

Darren SW: Nice powerful beginning, and nice drums too, and I like the low notes on the voice. Good brass. The band lollops along well. *

Wonkey Wabbit: Like the 'band' - sounding intro. Drums nice, with plenty of that jazzy 'plastic storage-box' kick sound to the drums we all know and love: perhaps a bit too much of that? Nice brass. *

LimeZRX: Again I like the vocal treatment. I like the low tom/kick, but too much of a good thing! Nice brass. *

Here we go: A wee bit too much rev on the voice? Too much drums a 1/3 of the way through. Band swings nicely, I'd put more top on the trombone. A bit more voice, in places.

Charlotte L: Nice powerful beginning, and nice drums too, and I like the low notes on the voice. Good brass. The band lollops along well.*

Guy Johnson: A wee bit too much rev on the voice? Too much drums a 1/3 of the way through. Band swings nicely, I'd put more top on the trombone. A bit more voice, in places. *

Songdoctor: Nice vocal, wee too much glassy reverb? Too much bass, even for me! The vocal glithches were all there for me. I like the up-front drums. The sax has too much reverb for me. Nice 'splatty' and real-sounding 'bone. The guitar is a tad too distorted.

Itinerant Baker: Ooh! another dry one. Too much bass. It also distorts in a nasty way, though this could be conversion artifact. And voice is too loud. Dub Trombone-bone-bone-bone-bone I like it . . . but not here! Most eccentric mix.

Chris Poulter: I instantly like the voice with the slightly sizzly reverb. Maybe the voice too low in the louder bits. I'd have the sax fatter, and a bit louder, and the bass down a bit in the brass solos. The band is nice and bouncy. 'My Pants' got lost a bit. Not the best 'Am I'

LD Guy: A very loud and compressed vox with a glassy reverb. Too much 'verb on the sax and 'bone - although it suits that instrument better. More bottom on the drums, and rather compressed overall for me.

Jumpy Spider: Liked the voice and 'verb. Not sure about the chorus on the guitar. Funny dropouts . . . I noticed the odd glitch I had so much trouble with at 1:15 and a bit. Funny, some tracks have not a hint of that. Lummy! Sax compression, or what!!! Wee to much 'verb on the bobe, and by contrast too little on the voice.

Adam Miller: Like the beginning, possibly a wee bit trebly. The 'well' at 51 seconds could have been louder. I like it do far . . . now the solos . . . I'd have the sax fatter with less reverb. 'bone nice. *

Phatriff: I like the close-and-cuddly sound. But less so when the band starts. Again too much guitar which sounds a bit honky to me.

Laurent Prod: Don't like the treatments on the voice or guitar at all. Quite like the EQ on the voice giving the singer a "tired red-lipsticky with lank-black-hair-and-too-thin look" ! Like the drums, but a touch too much kick.

Graham Sullivan: Again too much reverb on the voice, and a not-nice one at that! Quite like the drums; with a bit more bass in the loud bits. Nice solo section. One of my faves for that part of the song.

Phew! That was a bit of a mammoth session with me typing as it went. I tried to be objective, and comments were down to taste somewhat, and also what the style of music can take; in effect it's a king of classical music now.

I had bunged the tracks into iTunes and confusingly, the tracks all came up in a different order, and some had extra info, so now I'll sort the numbers and names out, as I don't know who half of them are!

Sorting it out took a whil . . . Bloomin' iTunes! I should have been more careful, and put the one by one into a new playlist.

Of to bed. Now, where is Teddy?

Quote Guy Johnson:

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Stemwinder : Nice powerful beginning, and nice drums too, and I like the low notes on the voice. Good brass. The band lollops along well. *
Darren SW: Nice powerful beginning, and nice drums too, and I like the low notes on the voice. Good brass. The band lollops along well. *
Charlotte L: Nice powerful beginning, and nice drums too, and I like the low notes on the voice. Good brass. The band lollops along well.*

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Hey - easy on the copy and paste there Guy!

Hi all,

if anyone wants to send me a remixed version of their tune I will put them up on the website REPLACING the older versions and I will mark the mix with a "(V2)" to show that its a new one.

Use the sos@liquidbughunt.co.uk email address, and don't forget to let me know your mix number or forum handle!

Edited by stemwinder (04/08/06 09:02 AM)

Oh Bollocks!!! It was 2 in the morning. Average it all out, folks. Sorry

A few comments on the mixes. I don't really want to talk about specific mixes but what I like and don't like about the approaches people have taken to the mix.

Firstly my mix...

For me, the mix was all about the vocal, supported by the bass. I know James found my vox too loud but that's the way I like it in Jazz!! [nice!] I EQ'd a bit of bottom into the vox and pushed it through PSP's Vintage Warmer (single band) to warm it up a bit.

For this mix I wanted to pan L-C-R... James thought that the horns were too far apart but a lot of the jazz I listen to has very wide panning and I felt that this was the way forward for this song, and I am happy with the result. The horns were pushed through a tube saturator to give them some hair (apart from the vox there was no EQ used - just different saturators/compressors to impart character).

The drums were problematic, way too much cymbal in the 2 track mix and definitely the crappest kick sound I have heard in a long time!! [not nice!] I disagree with James about the Rode NT5s - they are a competent (budget) SDC and if they are put in the right place can give good results.

The bass was pushed through PSP's Vintage Warmer (multiband) and was mixed front and centre (I play bass and do like it up front).

I used a medium plate reverb (low passed) sparingly, and put a PSP Master Compressor on the mix buss (1.4:1, 2-3db reduction) to smooth it out. This is a cracking compressor and well worth a look.


The other mixes...[YMMV]

- Too many of the mixes had the drums front and centre and, to my ears, compressed/limited too heavilly. Great for rock, but not for jazz (they need dynamic range).

- Some of the mixes were washed in reverb, not my cup of tea, and definitely no place for delay (or phase, flanger or chorus) here!

- Didn't feel there was any need to edit the mix


In the immortal words of Louis Balfour:

Louis Balfour: What are you going to play for us today, Jackson?
Jackson Jeffrey Jackson: Trumpet.
Louis Balfour: No, er, what tune?
Jackson Jeffrey Jackson: [indignant] Tune? This' jazz!

[nice!]

Thanks for ignoring my rather egregious vocal editing cock-up Guy. I appreciate it

Quote adam miller:

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Thanks for ignoring my rather egregious vocal editing cock-up Guy. I appreciate it

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Isn't 'egregious' a great word, though?

Quote CharlotteL:

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Quote:

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why is the lead vocal a semitone out in the last passage before the end? Or is that jazz?

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I think that's just a jazz thing... it doesn't sound like it was a mistake, and from the standard of the rest of the performance I'd be surprised if she was that far out by accident.

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Its intentional for sure, Jazz is built around 13th's which by nature have everynote of the scale in them. She's not the best singer in the world, but its not a semitone flat!

Laurence

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P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?

Spent a couple of hours yesturday and tonight to produce my humble attempt!

I accidently moved all the automation on the whole track by 1 second, and didn't relise as I was working on a looped section, by which time it was to late to undo! I've adjust a more of it, but there's still a few bits of automation which aren't quite right....

Bass track automation needs tidying - maybe becomes to loud towards the end?

Vocal - Dynamics?

-

Have any of you heard the Charlie Parker version of this, its on the album 'Warm and Tender' its rather lovely!

I think I'm going to have a mix-athon tommorow and listen to all the mixes so far! Thumbs up to James for doing this! and Thumbs up to all the people who've done it! Good show lads!

Laurence

*edit* forgot the link!

Right click, Save as target.

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P.I.G.L.E.T - where is polly?

Edited by PGWLE + Polly the Parrot (04/08/06 11:15 PM)

Aargh. What with difficulties loggin on (having to reregister as Lemon Tree Audio and hence now wanting to be known as the artist formally known as Giles Parlett), having relistened to my mix and agreeing with the comments made, and then being left off Guy Johnson's review, my therapist and I have decided to battle on regardless.
I shall post V2 when the hurt has gone.

In the meantime a big cheer to James and Darren, well done for a great idea and slick operation.

Cheers

TAFKAGP

Giles

Quote James Lehmann:

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MIX 12: "LimeZRX" Vox very harsh & ringy, kick too loud, drums boxy, horns not bad.

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Quote dunch:

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Mix 12 - Lime ZRX: Vocals have a slightly more breathy quality than most of the other mixes which is nice. I wasn't quite so convinced by the additional kicks - this might have worked if you could have made them less boomy, but on my monitors these sounded like they were recorded in a church! Guitar a tad light during the brass solos so the jazz rythmn suffers a bit as a result. Personally I didn't have a problem with the extra bass notes, but bass players are notoriously grumpy, so watch out!

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Quote Guy Johnson:

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LimeZRX: Again I like the vocal treatment. I like the low tom/kick, but too much of a good thing! Nice brass. *

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Because of this thread I've had three people here listen and pass comment on something I've mixed. That's three more than usual!
Even though my dreams of being the best music mixer in the world now lie in shatters (right beside the one about being the greatest guitar player) this has been a load of fun. I got to spend a few hours with my toys, had a reason to actually finish something and knew that others were facing the same challenges.

I'm sure something similar will happen again, but I suspect there'll be lots more people taking part and it'll propably get too unweildy- who's going to listen to maybe a hundred versions of something!

It's been good to have been in on this one. As others have said, big hand for James and Darren for the work. It's been great crack.

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Cubase, guitars.

Edited by Lime ZRX (05/08/06 09:11 AM)

Again apologies for my er... mixed-up reviews. I think I had pasted the whole of the wrong document - - I'd been trying to put the reviews in the correct order after I'd let iTunes move them all about randomly, and of course trashed the proper one with the reviews in the right order. If I feel brave, I'll do it properly next week!

Embarrassed of West Wales.

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PA stuff on FB

I've just uploaded my V2 mix (thanks Darren).

It's a bit wetter, the bass is a bit louder (I also reamped it through UAD's 'Nigel'), the kick is now heavily edited to just get the initial thud and the rest of the drums brought under more control. I automated the volume on a lot of the over-loud cymbal hits and brought up the volume on some of the quiet snare only sections.

The bass didn't seem to have anything above 500Hz in its spectrum so I assume the tone pot was rolled almost off on it. This a made it difficult for me to try and get any definition in the sound. Rolling off the bottom end to reduce the wooliness didn't leave much else above it. Re-amping helped a bit but only added a bit more definition. The bass is the bit I'm least happy about. When playing back at different volumes it sounds too quiet at some levels and too loud at others.

I moved the horns together (rather than on slightly opposite sides as I did previously) and panned the bass to the left slightly. I automated the vocal levels a bit more so they should now sit above the mix at all times.

There is a touch of mastering applied as I wanted to add a bit of overall reverb.

I only just resisted the temptation to add a 'Fast Show' style "Nice!" at the end.

Hi all,

re-mixes from Wonkey Wabbit and Hugh Conway are up, along with a new mix from PGWLE.

Enjoy,

Darren

Edited by stemwinder (05/08/06 10:45 PM)

V2 mixed and sent.
My therapist says I am ready to hear some critical analysis of it so please add any comments.

The main differences in approach to mixing this one: using headphones as well as monitors, clearing out as many plugins as possible, actually listening to it, and not thinking "oh that'll do" at 2 in the morning.

Hopefully my therapist is right and I have made some progression.

Cheers

Giles

Right, finally got round to tidying it up, V2 has been posted.

Main differences:
- increased attack times on compressor on drums and vocals to let them breathe
- bit of work on the bass and kick. Last time I mixed on my main monitors, then checked on cheap hi-fi speakers and thought it too light at the bass end for general consumption. Bumped up the bass & kick but didn't re-check on main monitors (:o)
- brought the brass up a little. I had wanted to keep them out of the way of the vocals but had overdone it before
- switched the sax to a plate reverb instead of room - sounds smoother
- general fiddling around re-balancing, and a bit of level automation in a few places.

Now off to listen to the other V2's

cheers
Adrian

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getting better all the time..

Hi all,

new (V2) mixes are up from Giles and Dunch.

Cheers, Darren

it's back!! James has posted his V2 mix.

Hmm, best to join in the V2 jamboree, as all you peeps are doing it. Still a bit busy, so don't know when...

Guy

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PA stuff on FB