Bought mine on Friday, and a 2GB card. So far I have used it:

as an audio interface for my laptop when I DJ'ed at an 18th birthday party,

to record my four of my brother's songs featuring acoustic piano playing and vocals, using the built in stereo mic,

to record my 9-month old son's gurglings,

for headphone bass practice, using the Fender Bassman amp modelling,

as a guitar tuner, as a metronome, as an effects unit,

and as a 4-track.

Sound quality is good, including the amp sims and effects. Build quality is solid. As a four track it is fairly easy to use, and will get easier, I'm sure: I've never had a similar kind of device. As a stereo recorder it could hardly be simpler: recording the piano and vocals involved putting it on its stand, and then clicking the record button twice: that was it.

I have not yet had a chance to try out Cubase LE (bundled) or to use it for its phantom power mic preamps, or to use it as an audio input for my PC.

Easily the best £191 I've ever spent on audio gear.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Wow Richard - where did you get it for that price?

I've got an Edirol R-1, and while it's a neat little recorder, it has one serious flaw for me :

The "input level" on the side is erroneously referred to as "mic gain" in the manual. In fact, there is no control over the mic gain. So, if the sound you are recording is loud enough to distort the microphones (fairly easy when recording a rehearsal with a three-piece "rock" band - my main reason for buying it) then attenuating the input level merely results in a distorted signal recorded to the memory card at a lower level.

I'd be really interested to hear how the H4 copes with a loud source such as a band rehearsing in a small rehearsal studio. If it functions ok like this, I'd be very tempted to flog the R-1 and switch to the H4.

Thanks for that fun piece of news!
When you have time to plug in some mics, let us know if you have good gain, phantom power, and not too much noise.

I have not used it to record my band yet, but I'll be doing that this week. We are a loud band. I've read reviews online that say it works fine for band rehearsals. I've always used a Tandy PZM into a Creative Jukebox 3 with good results, but it's fiddly to set up, doesn't always record in stereo properly, and the backlight's gone so the H4 is my solution.

Got it at Sound Control, Mosely Street, Newcastle upon Tyne... Shay Graham (no relation) is your man.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Sound Control is selling it for £229 on their web site, so you did well to get it for £191 (even £229 is the cheapest I've seen in the UK).

Quote Richard Graham:

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I have not used it to record my band yet, but I'll be doing that this week. We are a loud band. I've read reviews online that say it works fine for band rehearsals.

---

Great - if you could report back with how it went in this kind of situation, that would be much appreciated. If it works ok, I think the R-1 will be going on Ebay very soon.

Cheers!

Having read this thread with great interest, I had to go and buy one of these, superb, Ive been looking for something like this for ages to replace my minidisk, the audio interface is a great bonus, the Phantom power works well, I tried recording some acoustic guitar with a small condenser mic, very quiet with plenty signal, a great little tool.

Thought I'd let everyone know that the H4 has been tested by Mondongo and found wanting.

The internal mics and/or pre-amps crap out at high volume levels, even with the mic gain set to low. You can set the recording level as low as you like and you hit a brick wall, above which all the transients get clipped. So say if the record meter is peaking at -6, it will be pretty much permanently at -6 while the song is playing, as if you'd put a brick-wall limiter across the inputs. It still produces a useable sound for listening back to a rehearsal, but it isn't a good recording, in fact it's poor.

I tried moving the H4 as far away from the amps and drums as possible, but it was just as bad (possibly worse due to a bass proximity effect from situating it near a wall).

Next week I will try my trusty PZMs in the mic inputs, and let you know the results.

Apart from this the H4 is still an excellent little tool, and I've had a lot of joy this weekend using it as a 4-track. In fact it is more like an N-track, because even when you bounce, it keeps the original files, and you can then load the whole lot into Cubase LE (supplied). So for instance I had 9 unbounced tracks on the song I recorded, you keep bouncing and adding them in the H4, but then load the originals into Cubase and mix to your heart content.

So I'm far from unhappy with it, but I wish Zoom could've made it so it could cope with live heavy metal.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

That looks remarkably similar to Ant's post about the R-1. Interesting.

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www.bemuso.com

I've jumped the gun somewhat, and already flogged the R-1.

I was reading the reviews on ZZounds, and a couple of folks on there report good results recording loud rock rehearsals. I can't remember offhand if they mention whether they were using the internals or externals.

Bit of a dilemma, this.

Richard - is it actually distorting, or just hard limiting? If it's hard limiting, I could probably live with it. But the R1 definitely distorts with loud sources.

Maybe you could chuck an excerpt of a recording up somewhere? If that's not too cheeky a request

Edited by ant_chapman (06/11/06 12:35 PM)

Not enough juice for the pre-amps from the batteries, maybe? I could try it with the adaptor, see if it is any better. It'd be handy if there was a built in pad, but it seems not. Maybe a firmware update could fix it, depending on how the thing's put together and where in the signal chain the clipping is occuring. You'd think they would have field tested it with a bit of rock though!

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote ant_chapman:

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Richard - is it actually distorting, or just hard limiting? If it's hard limiting, I could probably live with it.

---

It's distortion. Not fizzy distortion, but a severe 'crapping out', not unlike when you used to over-load a cassette tape, if you ever did that: it sounds like analog distortion I think. The recordings are useable for reference, but it isn't good, nice or benificial distortion/limiting.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

I've got one on order. I won't be recording any rockous rawk... but I do sometimes record noisy stuff in the big outdoors. Shouldn't be a terminal problem anyway.

I was wondering of these little beasts share some architecture or even parts that makes this kind of thing happen?

Have you thought of fitting tiny earplugs to the mics?

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www.bemuso.com

OK, just for reference - I've put an excerpt of an R1 recording of a loud three piece band from a rehearsal on my webspace :

www.knuckleheads.co.uk/r1.mp3

This is recorded using the internal R1 mics, set to Dynamic mode (although with this kind of source, both modes sound pretty much identical).

I haven't normalised the excerpt, so if you put it into a wave editor you can see the problem with the R1 - the input level pot merely alters the recording level POST the mic preamps. In this case I reduced the input level until the meter looked fairly calm, and all I got was quite distorted music at a low level.

Maybe you could try getting a couple of the Shure in-line pads and using an external mic? This things have a selectable attenuation of 15, 20 or 25 dB, and are very transparent. I use them all the time.







Also, is there a line in feature where you could use external mic pres? This might help for situations where some other option was available.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

BTW... I just listened to the MP3 that you posted. It reminds me of the old days (late 70's?) when we used to record our practices with old cassette players with built-in mics and auto leveling.

Truly horrible!!!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

I have just ordered one too. I'll be checking it out at band rehearsal Thursday evening and a pub gig Friday evening.

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"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

If the gain control doesn't have any effect then it is probably down to the power supply to the built-in mic capsule not being high enough. There is also the remote possibility that you have a faulty mic capsule. It might be worth contacting Zoom to see what sort of sound levels it is designed for. Theoretically you might be able to increase the supply voltage to the built in capsule but this would also increase the capsule noise and would invalidate any warranty. The inability to handle high levels is common with cheap electret mics.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Quote Doublehelix:

---

Maybe you could try getting a couple of the Shure in-line pads and using an external mic? This things have a selectable attenuation of 15, 20 or 25 dB, and are very transparent. I use them all the time.







Also, is there a line in feature where you could use external mic pres? This might help for situations where some other option was available.

---

The H4 can use external mic pres, as it has combo Jack / XLR inputs. The Shure attenuator might help, but this along with always having to use external mics sort of defeats the object of using a supposedly all-in-one solution like the H4.

Quote ant_chapman:

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...having to use external mics sort of defeats the object of using a supposedly all-in-one solution...

---

There is a version with stereo U87s, but it's more bulky and it does cost £3,200.

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www.bemuso.com

Just to be clear - when you say the gain is set to "low" are you talking about the 3-way switch on the side of the H4? I presume the software gain is some kind of digital gain stage (like the level setting on sony MD decks).

H4 is quite appealing, but this sounds a little dodgy!

Quote James Perrett:

---

If the gain control doesn't have any effect then it is probably down to the power supply to the built-in mic capsule not being high enough. There is also the remote possibility that you have a faulty mic capsule. It might be worth contacting Zoom to see what sort of sound levels it is designed for. Theoretically you might be able to increase the supply voltage to the built in capsule but this would also increase the capsule noise and would invalidate any warranty. The inability to handle high levels is common with cheap electret mics.

Cheers

James.

---

My guess is that it's the first input stage which is not metered. But who knows? I'm sure someone will shortly,

Quote Jeraldo:

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My guess is that it's the first input stage which is not metered. But who knows? I'm sure someone will shortly,

---

With an electret capsule the first input stage is the FET inside the capsule - that's why I would guess that it is capsule related.

One thought - do you have phantom power on the H4? If so, you could try using one of those capsule in an XLR plug mics that have been discussed recently.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

To answer a couple of points in one go:

the mic input gain switch is set to the lowest level, and then the internal recording level is adjusted seperately.

using external mics IS an option, but obviously reduces the all-in-one convenience of using the H4 in this instance (recording very loud rock bands close up). And will the pre-amps still 'crap out'? If the problem is the capsule, then maybe not.

I still don't know if using the supplied wall-wart makes any difference. If so, then good, but still not ideal. I will try it.

here is a link to an mp3'ed snippet of rehearsal, so you can hear the distortion for yourself. It's mostly when the bass kicks in loud. Eddie plays through a pair of 4x12s using an Ashdown head. The H4 is a few feet from each stack and the drumkit. The distortion was non-existent, inconspicuous, or at least far less bad when it was just drums and guitar at the same levels and distances.

http://www.dtxperience.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=8&Board=DTXtremeIIS&Num ber=289983&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

The fact remains that in MOST respects, the H4 is a very very useful piece of kit, at an affordable price, and there's currently nothing like it on the market.

I'm very glad I bought it.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Cheers for the excerpt, Richard. Definitely sounds better than the R-1 to me, so I think I'm still going to get one. Might call Sound Control in Newcastle and see if they've got any stock, as I'm going to be up there at the weekend.

Glad it was of use. It also makes me feel better to know that the H4 is much better than the Edirol.

For non-critical listening, the recordings I got using the H4 are ok, and I'd use it again for band-practice recording, with or without external mics.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

I agree that this clip sound better than the one that was posted earlier... much less distortion, although still present.

Very nice!

Now who is that drummer??? RUBBISH I tell you!!! Burn him!!! (Just kidding!!! Nice job Richard!!!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Sorry, one more question - the web site says

"Included with the H4 is a windscreen to alleviate unwanted noise from turbulence and a tripod adaptor that allows easy mounting to a standard camera tripod."

Does the tripod adaptor fit on a mic stand?
Thanks

No, the tripod adaptor won't attach to a mic stand.

I actually like the tripod adaptor cos I can stick the H4 on a table or a chair or chest of drawers, with a little tripod I got with a cheap digital camera and never used, and I can swivel it or angle it as I like, without having to lug mic stands around. One of the best things for me about the H4 is it is very portable and inconspicuous, I can make recordings or practice bass or guitar in our living room without all the gubbins.

The H4 comes with a couple of bits of velcro that you can use to attach it to the tripod adaptor, but I don't bother because it's stable enough as it is. I'm sure you could use these to tie it to a mic stand.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Thanks for the reply - have just been browsing 'net and you can get a mic stand adaptor for the Edirol R-9 which looks like it goes from a camera thread to Mic stand threading - I guess this would be compatible with the H4 if I ever felt the need to stick it on a boom stand or something. Probably 3rd party adaptors available too.

Quote Richard Graham:

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To answer a couple of points in one go:

the mic input gain switch is set to the lowest level, and then the internal recording level is adjusted separately.

---

First, I don't have one of these, so I'm purely speculating! There is a difference between mic trim and mic gain, and my suspicion is that the first device in the chain can't handle the input, even with the gain and/or trim switch/pot set to the lowest level. (Many pro and consumer kit has had this problem-remember the old Tascam portable DAT recorder?) Maybe Boss includes a detailed spec sheet-if they do, that should answer all the questions.

Yeah, it would've been nice to have a mic trim switch on the H4, to knock the signal down by 10 or 20 dbs. I think that would have been enough. But I suppose it would have added a few quid to the price. Mind you, it would be a few quid I'd have been happy to pay.

(too many would haves in this post, I know)

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Quote Jeraldo:

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There is a difference between mic trim and mic gain, and my suspicion is that the first device in the chain can't handle the input, even with the gain and/or trim switch/pot set to the lowest level.

---

I don't know if you saw my previous reply Jeraldo, but the first device in the chain is the FET in the electret capsule. Cheap electret capsules commonly have problems with high sound levels.

cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

Indeed they do...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electret_microphone

I just read the wiki article, where it says that electrets (can) rival condensers in all respects except for low noise. I didn't read where it said they were necessarily poor at recording high SPLs. In fact, the article even says they 'can even have the long-term stability and ultra-flat response needed for a measuring microphone'.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

Mine arrived yesterday. I only had time for a quick play so I plugged in my MDR-7509s and sat down with an acoustic and recorded a track then some over dubs. The track arm/mute/select system is dead easy to use and makes for quick convenient tracking. My initial impression of the sound quality was very good. Rather disappointed with the tiny display. Menu stuff is a little fiddly, but once the thing is set up for the job in hand it's all pretty simple.

Stereo mode is a doddle to operate, nice friendly (big) record button starts and stops the recording process.

Interfacing with a laptop was painless and quick.

I'm hoping the 1GB SDs arrive today so I can record band rehearsal at 44.1/24 this evening.

Pretty pleased with it so far and haven't even unwrapped the manual yet.

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"Qui habet aures audiendi audiat"

I see what you're getting at, but, electret types exist because this technology lends itself to low cost mass production; and even though they could be made better, the market at large doesn't require them to be.

I put the Wiki link in to support the fact that there is a FET built into the capsule as the first stage of amplication/buffering. There is only one FET in there, nothing more. The human race has yet to make a single amplifying element that is perfectly linear over it's full operating range. It doesn't have to clip to distort - just moved into a non-linear region by large signal excursions.

Or is the overloading heard with loud music deliberate? To stop people taking these things to concerts and getting bootleg recordings?

Quote James Perrett:

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Quote Jeraldo:

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There is a difference between mic trim and mic gain, and my suspicion is that the first device in the chain can't handle the input, even with the gain and/or trim switch/pot set to the lowest level.

---

I don't know if you saw my previous reply Jeraldo, but the first device in the chain is the FET in the electret capsule. Cheap electret capsules commonly have problems with high sound levels.

cheers

James.

---

Quote James Perrett:

---

Quote Jeraldo:

---

There is a difference between mic trim and mic gain, and my suspicion is that the first device in the chain can't handle the input, even with the gain and/or trim switch/pot set to the lowest level.

---

I don't know if you saw my previous reply Jeraldo, but the first device in the chain is the FET in the electret capsule. Cheap electret capsules commonly have problems with high sound levels.

James.

---

I don't know if you saw my previous reply, James, but I was not talking about the capsule FET or microphone output electronics. I'm happy to know of your experiences with cheap electrets. My experience with cheap electrets has been different than yours. I've used plenty and they've all been good to about 105 dB C weighted. (And the "original" Tandy PZMs with the high voltage batteries would go well above that.) We may have very different experiences leading us to very different judgments about what is loud.

It may be possible that two people have had different experiences. I was speculating on my experience, and said so. I also acknowledged that your ideas may on target, and I said that it might be something completely different.

By any chance do you think your experience and speculation should trump others' experience and speculation?

But it looks to me as if you'd rather quibble over semantics of the term "first input stage". I believe there are very few people who would ever associate the FET converter and microphone output electronics with a "first input stage." Commonly, the term "first input stage" is associated with preamps, mixers, recording devices and the like. I've never heard nor read of microphone electronics being referred to as the first input stage." I think it was clear what I was referring to, and it not some sort of mistake on my part.

I was merely offering an alternate opinion. I thought the boards were a place to exchange different ideas. But then that's just me.

Cheers

Quote Jim Y:

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I see what you're getting at, but, electret types exist because this technology lends itself to low cost mass production; and even though they could be made better, the market at large doesn't require them to be.

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Partly true, but that doesn't explain why some very high end (read very expensive) microphones employ that technology. Caveat: I'm referring to DPA, which in the past has used the electret design often. I don't follow the line closely, though, so may or not be true anymore. Earthworks also comes immediately to mind, but there may be a size factor there, as well.

Quote Jim Y:

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Or is the overloading heard with loud music deliberate? To stop people taking these things to concerts and getting bootleg recordings?

---

That would be creative, but I think they'd position something on all the inputs to insure distortion, and then I don't think they'd sell. And they'd have to answer the question, "What is loud?" Evidently that question has been asked and answered in some EU countries (witness the flap over the iPod volume).

I'm hoping that manufacturers don't read your post, you never know......

Edited by Jeraldo (11/11/06 08:31 PM)

I'm sorry that you took my posting in that way Jeraldo - I was only trying to point out a techincal fact and was in no way trying to contradict any of your experience. In fact, my experience with the Tandy mics has been similar to yours but I've also used various cheap electret mics that sounded great at low levels but would distort at high levels.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net