Afternoon, hope this is the right place for this.

I have to send off some of my music to people I don't know, but none of it's copyrighted or officially "owned" by me. I remember you use to be able to post a CD to yourself and that would sevre as proof, but then I heard it had to be registered post. If so, exactly what kind of delivery is legally recognised as proof of copyright/ownership?

I don't think it's likely, but the prospect of someone nicking an idea, sound, lyric or whatever is such a hideously NIGGLY idea that I just have to do this!

Help appreciated as always

Marty

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as far as i understand it, having recordings and/or files which date back further than those belonging to someone who is trying to claim ownership of your lyric/melody/sound etc is enough to claim ownership. if you are recording in a digital format eg. in a sequencer, you can prove the age of the recording by looking at your hard-drive. if, on the other hand it is an anologue recording, you may have to use the post it to yourself method, which will then give another proof of date. i think you need to do it registered post and keep the envelope sealed.

if you're still not sure, search this site for copyright info, i'm sure there's something on it here somewhere.

Quote Mr DiBergi:

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I have to send off some of my music to people I don't know, but none of it's copyrighted or officially "owned" by me.

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If you wrote the music then it IS under copyright and owned by you as soon as it is put into any tangible form. That could be a music score or a recording, e.g. a tape, CD or hard disk. That's assuming you have not assigned that copyright to somebody else, e.g. a publisher.

Quote:

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I remember you use to be able to post a CD to yourself and that would sevre as proof, but then I heard it had to be registered post. If so, exactly what kind of delivery is legally recognised as proof of copyright/ownership?

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There is no special legal basis for this. People do it so that they can PROVE that they created a piece of music before a certain date. If you write a tune, create a CD, put it in a sealed envelope and get the post office to date stamp it, then you might be able to use that to prove that the CD was created on or before that date.

However, if I was arguing against you in court, I'd say you might have sent yourself an empty, non-sealed envelope, then just put the CD in it today, so I don't see the point really.

If you ever need to prove you own a copyright, then you need some way to prove that you put the music into a tangible form before the other guy. Having lots of witnesses who have heard the music will help. Having your music on a web site might even help. Giving it to a lawyer who locks it away and swears on his mother's life not to let anybody interfere with it will help too.

Everybody does the envelope/special delivery thing, but I've never actually heard of a court case where that was used in evidence, and to me it looks a bit flakey. Perhaps somebody here knows of one.

Matt

Thanks, I'm glad to hear that computer files as valid proof of copyright. Somehow makes me feel safe, until my hard drive melts down....

I'd considered the empty envelope thing, but isn't it illegal to send an empty envelope through the post or something? Anyway, I feel a bit better - will back up hard drive (one day) and registered post it to myself, just to be safe.

This place is great.

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Quote Matt Downing:

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Everybody does the envelope/special delivery thing, but I've never actually heard of a court case where that was used in evidence, and to me it looks a bit flakey. Perhaps somebody here knows of one.

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Ann Harrison mentions it as valid in her music biz law book (Music: The Business). It does sound a bit Heath Robinson, but apparently it works. I think it has to be registered or some such so the envelope is sealed before posting.

My turn to be sceptical... hard disc file dates are not proof of the age of a file. They are pretty easy to edit using some basic software.

Also (and I say this every time, sorry) the date thing isn't proof of copyright or proof of ownership, it's only proof that you had a tangible record before a certain time. If you look up the copyright cases on the web you'll find proof of age or ownership is rarely a factor. Like Matt says, the best proof of ownership is to get your stuff out there... and get some fans/witnesses.

(BTW... it isn't illegal to send an empty envelope through the post... although it won't change anything here.)

I hate to be stating the obvious here, but I don't see how sending yourself an empty envelope is relevant. The point of the exercise is to send yourself the cd in a sealed envelope, sign across the seal, sign a receipt for it when it arrives and - most importantly of all - keep it sealed! if you open the package then the whole exercise is futile. it only gets opened in court, if the situation arises.

this subject gets brought up so often it makes me wonder how many millions of unopened registered letters with cassettes/cd demos are lying around in people's homes?

Quote whataboutit:

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I hate to be stating the obvious here, but I don't see how sending yourself an empty envelope is relevant

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It's only relevant if you're trying to fraudulently fake the old 'sealed envelope' trick. The thing would be to send yourself an empty, unsealed envelope now and ensure it gets covered in dates and post marks then lie low and wait a few years.

In a few years time, choose a contemporary, high-earning, hit song and record your own version of it as a fake demo. Put your demo in your envelope and seal it up, so it looks like it was sent on the date shown. Find a lawyer and sue the genuine writers of the song, claiming they ripped you off. They'll say that was nonsense, but you go to court and pull out your sealed envelope. "Stop this preposterous posturing" says the opposing barrister; "No - I'm curious to see where he's going with this." says the judge (as they always do). Your barrister opens your sealed envelope, pulls out the CD and plays it to the court. The whole court hears your 'demo', which is undoubtedly the same song as the multi-million selling hit record. "Well, this proves it" says the judge and awards you all the royalites.

It is this ridiculous scenario that makes me think the sealed envelope thing is either bollocks, or has to be done very carefully to prove beyond any doubt that the contents could not possibly have been put into the envelope at a later date. Bear in mind that in extreme cases a lot of money could be at stake, so it would be well worth a fraudster taking a lot of time and effort in faking a 'sealed' envelope. For £10000 I could probably get a totally convincing sealed envelope containing the words and music to 'Yesterday' and dated to 1960. If you're trying to prove your own genuine work, then you need to be able to prove you didn't do this.

I bet most people's sealed envelopes full of demos do not really prove anything.

Matt

Quote whataboutit:

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The point of the exercise is to send yourself the cd in a sealed envelope, sign across the seal, sign a receipt for it when it arrives and - most importantly of all - keep it sealed! if you open the package then the whole exercise is futile. it only gets opened in court, if the situation arises.

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According to the music law book I mentioned, this isn't the process. The package must be a Post Office sealed format of some kind (I believe Registered is sealed). You don't need to sign for it as part of the proof.

I think people spend way too much time on this... but it does keep coming up... and if you're going to do it you may as well do it right. Like Matt says, a regular manila envelope isn't going to impress anybody.

Much more important is the judgement of a court about the likely course of events and legal opinion about the alleged copy. The question of whether you have a copyright depends on a number of factors. Don't imagine a cassette in an envelope is going to be the lynchpin.

Well there's nothing sdtopping us Brits from registering our material with the U.S library of congress. it costs a bit, but that would proove beyond any doubt that the material was your copyright at the time you registered it.

it's a pity the UK Gvt doesn't have something similar, which would be quite a good money making scheme for them.

I tend to agree that the old sealed envelope thing wouldn't stand up in court. I mean I'm sure even a post office approved package could be cleverly opened and a CD inserted if there were potentialy millions of pounds in damages to be gained by doing so by a con man, it just can't be THAT simple, can it?

I am not aware of anyone referring to a case in British law where this has worked and set a precedent in law.

let's face it, if there's any argument over copyright the party with the most money to spend on lawyers is likely to win, ie the record companies!

I havn't heard of a case for ages of someone "ripping" off anothers work.

The cold view of copyright ownership is that the owner is he/she who makes money out of the song first.
Of course this is not true to the letter of the law, but imagine if a major label made millions out of a song you wrote without your permission. Think of the time and money it would cost you to go to court. And it would be you against a major multi-national.

The only real rule for protecting your work is being carefull where and who you let perform it.

I agree that the envelope thing is a bit of a myth - it could protect you someday in proving you wrote a song before a certain time..but thats getting a long way ahead, if ever.

Just keep a close eye on those demos on yours

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How can I prove I wrote it?

This is the question. Let's put our envelopes aside for a mo

Of course, you can't prove any such thing. It isn't possible. Even Macca had doubts about Yesterday. And nothing is "original" (ask a musicologist).

So "what is copyright"?

A copyright is something you created that isn't a copy or a close copy of something else. It exists as soon as it is in a tangible form.

You should have some record of when that was, and preferably witnesses.

If it goes to court they will consider:

Is the "infringing work" similar enough to yours to bring a case?

Is the "infringing work" a copy of earlier work (prior art) and not yours?

Could "the infringer" have heard your work? Could you have heard theirs? Could either of you have heard something else that's relevant?

What is the earliest tangible expression of the work (or key passages) that can be proved?

Do you own the rights to the work (or key passages) which is shown to have the earliest tangible expression?

Does anybody else claim rights (if it's a major hit, what do you think)?

Did "the infringer" have the right to do what he did?

Is "the infringing" use in fact a breach of copyright (it may not be for technical reasons)?

So, there are several things you need to do to protect your copyrights, and proving you were in possession of a sound recording on a particular date is a very small part of it.

The only cases I've seen where the question of "who wrote what" is a factor, is when partners or groups fall out and sue each other (and mostly they end in a compromise).

I can think of two cases off the top of my head.

The famous 'My Sweet Lord/He's So Fine' Spector vs Harrison, which I believe Spector won and anyone who hears both songs would have to agree!

More recently i believe a song by The Flaming Lips was very similar to one by Yusuf islam (Cat Stevens) and the lawyers got involved there.

What strikes me is that if you listen to these songs they are very similar, but no more similar than other songs i hear which to my ears are almost direct copies of previous 'hits' and do not result in any protest or court action.

For example on Rod Stewart's hit the killing of sister george he sings a p[hrase 'Don't go away. georgie please stay..' which is identical to 'Don't let me Down' by The Beatles. No court case. There have been so many examples of lifts, for example Let me Entertain You is a lift of one of the songs in the musical Jesus Christ Superstar, etc etc. I'm sure others can supply many such examples that didn't go to litigation.

Perhaps there's so little legal action becuase the big companies know there are only so many phrases and tunes and chord patterns you can rearrange to make a catchy tune and you'd be constantly suing someone if you took it to the extreme.

In dfefence, if you can show that the chord pattern and melody you used were actualy used in several other non-related songs at different times then maybe you'd get away with it?

Must be heartbreaking for someone who writes a good song to have it nicked by a major with no credit given back, that must be how all those original black blues artists felt, right?

"£10000 I could probably get a totally convincing sealed envelope containing the words and music to 'Yesterday' and dated to 1960."
cue cunning plan (oh hang on i was born in 1968), anyway, consider the reverse, the recent legal battle between Mark Taylor & Rive Droite Music. Mark wrote two songs for an Enrique Iglesias album. he started them while under contract with RDM but finished them when he was out of contract. Mark considered the copyright in the songs as his own, however, as he'd recorded an initial demo (as opposed to just keeping the idea in his head), he'd created the copyright, and under the terms of his contract the copyright was assigned to RDM - and i think the judge ruled in favour of RDM. in this case Mark would have given anything for is demos to be dated later rather than earlier... ...anyway, the basis of this thread is that you (Mr DiB) don't trust the people you are sending the music to. you can either send them the CD by registered post, in which case you have proof of you sending them a CD at a certain date. you can also put your copyright information in the ID3 tag of your tracks software such as CD Architect, Sound Forge, and some other CD burning application will allow you to do this (in most cases right click on the song in question) - cheers paul

Guess the thing to remember is that anything can be challenged in court, no matter how many steps you take to protect yourself, where big money is invovled if it's worth it you can be challenged.

My mate's uncle insists he wrote 'The Joker' and was ripped off by Steve Miller.

If only he could find that damned sealed envelope, he'd be rich.

Matt

Going a bit off topic here, but since I started the thread that's ok, right?

I went to a presentation by a company called Polyphonic HMI about a piece of software/machine that analysed the "hitability" of a song. You import your song (or, since it was going to be quite expensive, the record company imports the song it's considering releasing) and it analyses the music in terms of tempo, key, intervalic modulation, chord sequences and, I think, the audio spectrum and how it changed over time, plus lots of other tangibles. The software/machine then compares these values against its huge library of data - I think they'd "scanned in" every Top 40 hit for the last 50 years or something - and provides a set of scores which ultimately tell you if it's going to be a hit or not.

It sounds like a joke, and it was also on the April 1st - last year I think - but it was in the BPI building and there were people from the majors there. The "forecasters" admitted that it couldn't take into account elements like lyrics, events (Band Aid/Candle in the Wind for example), but were trying to sell their services on the basis that they could provide information to contribute towards choice of singles, for example. I voiced potential dismay at the fact that it could replace what little A&R activity existed, and that new music would only score highly if it sounded like something else. (I later agreed with the argument that little if any pop music is actually THAT different from everything before, but that's a whole different thread, yawn).

ANYWAY, back to the copyright issue. The makers were also claiming that the machine could spot copyright infringement - nicked tunes or whatever. They gave the example of Seal's Kiss From a Rose and the first/second single by Nickleback. They both have a very characteristic minor/major thing going on, a sort of extended tierce da picardi (sorry about the spelling if that's wrong) and apparently the machine spotted it. I don't think anything came of it, but when you hear them together it's undeniable.

If you're interested, google for Hitability, Hit Song Science (HSS), or Polyphonic HMI.

It's really interesting, but it's all a bit scary and depressing.

So yes, sorry, quite off topic and it still doesn't guarantee that no-one will nick my rubbish songs!

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Quote GlynB:

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I can think of two cases off the top of my head.

The famous 'My Sweet Lord/He's So Fine' Spector vs Harrison, which I believe Spector won and anyone who hears both songs would have to agree!

More recently i believe a song by The Flaming Lips was very similar to one by Yusuf islam (Cat Stevens) and the lawyers got involved there.

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Indeed, there are hundreds of such cases, but with respect, neither of these was a dispute about who wrote what. The provenance and sequence of the work wasn't disputed. The question was: did the second work substantially copy the first. I think that's a different question.

Call me naive here, but I send an email to a trusted friend or collaborator, attaching a lyric sheet and a basic song file (e.g. a Logic song containing a midi sequence and melody line, but no vast audio files). We both keep it on our hard disks, the ISP can (presumably) confirm if needs be the date/fact of the email should the need arise, and it's cheaper than registered post or buying envelopes.

I'm sure more IT-literate people could improve on this with references to digital signatures, encryption etc?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

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Call me naive here

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You are naive

Only joking! The way you described would be pretty easy to fake too, and the ISP probably wouldn't have records of the actual attachments you sent.

However, maybe sending the files to an account where you couldn't possibly fiddle with the dates (like hotmail or yahoo) would work. Seems as secure as the envelope method to me, but I am not a judge!

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Quote Mr DiBergi:

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Going a bit off topic here, but since I started the thread that's ok, right?

I went to a presentation by a company called Polyphonic HMI about a piece of software/machine that analysed the "hitability" of a song. You import your song (or, since it was going to be quite expensive, the record company imports the song it's considering releasing) and it analyses the music in terms of tempo, key, intervalic modulation, chord sequences and, I think, the audio spectrum and how it changed over time, plus lots of other tangibles. The software/machine then compares these values against its huge library of data - I think they'd "scanned in" every Top 40 hit for the last 50 years or something - and provides a set of scores which ultimately tell you if it's going to be a hit or not.

It sounds like a joke, and it was also on the April 1st - last year I think - but it was in the BPI building and there were people from the majors there. The "forecasters" admitted that it couldn't take into account elements like lyrics, events (Band Aid/Candle in the Wind for example), but were trying to sell their services on the basis that they could provide information to contribute towards choice of singles, for example. I voiced potential dismay at the fact that it could replace what little A&R activity existed, and that new music would only score highly if it sounded like something else. (I later agreed with the argument that little if any pop music is actually THAT different from everything before, but that's a whole different thread, yawn).

ANYWAY, back to the copyright issue. The makers were also claiming that the machine could spot copyright infringement - nicked tunes or whatever. They gave the example of Seal's Kiss From a Rose and the first/second single by Nickleback. They both have a very characteristic minor/major thing going on, a sort of extended tierce da picardi (sorry about the spelling if that's wrong) and apparently the machine spotted it. I don't think anything came of it, but when you hear them together it's undeniable.

If you're interested, google for Hitability, Hit Song Science (HSS), or Polyphonic HMI.

It's really interesting, but it's all a bit scary and depressing.

So yes, sorry, quite off topic and it still doesn't guarantee that no-one will nick my rubbish songs!

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What a disturbing idea.

Let's take 'Clocks' by Coldplay. If this softwrae had come out before Clocks was a hit then you can bet that Clocks would not have been passed as a potential hit by the program because it does not follow the normal 'rules' for a hit record. However, because 'Clocks' was a hit and the database came out after that fact then Clocks would presumably be factored in to the database and effect the results/calculation in future?

The danger of this is that hit song developement stops at the point you establish the database. Anything that is novel or innovative will not fit with the criteria based on history and will therefore be rejected. The result is more and more formula and even less innovation!

I hope it catches on, it will hasten the death of big music biz!

Oh, yeh, why I really came here was the issue of copyright.

These people sent me an email today offering a new copyright registration service. Basicaly you send them your CD of material and they will register it and back you up if you need to proove authorship in the future, for a fee of course. I think its £60 for 10 years.

http://www.Copyright-on-line.com

I have no idea if they're any good. Anyone any views if this service would stand up in court as being independent?

Hi Glynb,

I think the idea is a sound one, but knowing whether to trust any particular service is the tricky question. I suppose that's what makes the Copyright Office in the US Library of Congress so good, because you really should be able to trust them.

For any other private company offering such a service you'd need to know a few things like

Will this company exist in 10 years or for however long you want to keep your data there?

What security and auditing do they do to ensure that the a court will trust their evidence? How can they prove they are tamper-proof?

How can YOU be sure you trust they are tamper-proof? We're in the realms of extreme paranoia here (but you have to be a bit paranoid to consider using the service), so can you be sure an employee wouldn't accept a bribe to falsify the data they're keeping for you?

Can they offer a better service than you can do for yourself?

Oh - there's probably more but you get the idea. Of course, these people might be able to answer all these questions absolutely positively, but I start from a position of skepicism because it sounds like money for old rope and possibly little value.

Matt

i'm getting lazy now, but not having looked at the copyrightonline site, i would assume it's based on a bulk discount rate with a solicitor. the bottom line is that you can always go to a solicitor, deposit your demo / lyrics / whatever and get them to swear an oath as to the date & contents. this package is then stored at the solicitor's premises or storage facility as a legal document - but this is very expensive.
if this online service was not a brokerage for a solicitor, i'd be wary
cheers - paul

Quote Matt Downing:

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Hi Glynb,

I think the idea is a sound one, but knowing whether to trust any particular service is the tricky question. I suppose that's what makes the Copyright Office in the US Library of Congress so good, because you really should be able to trust them.

For any other private company offering such a service you'd need to know a few things like

Will this company exist in 10 years or for however long you want to keep your data there?

What security and auditing do they do to ensure that the a court will trust their evidence? How can they prove they are tamper-proof?

How can YOU be sure you trust they are tamper-proof? We're in the realms of extreme paranoia here (but you have to be a bit paranoid to consider using the service), so can you be sure an employee wouldn't accept a bribe to falsify the data they're keeping for you?

Can they offer a better service than you can do for yourself?

Oh - there's probably more but you get the idea. Of course, these people might be able to answer all these questions absolutely positively, but I start from a position of skepicism because it sounds like money for old rope and possibly little value.

Matt

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Good points Matt.
You can't even guarantee that your pension that you paid for will be there for you when you retire, so no guarantee that this firm won't take the money, declare themselves bust and you've no proof of copyright despite parting with your £60 or whatever.

US Library of congress seems the best 'guarantee' in an uncertain world.

Not in the least bit defensive here, but actually I don't think I am that naive. ISPs are now used to keeping detailed records as compared with the early days of internet anarchy, not least because they are concerned about things like libel, paedophilia and terrorist activities.

You'd be amazed how many copies of your emails are in safe keeping somwhere just in case big brother wants a peek one day. (I write with my former day job hat on - legal and accounting background investigating fraud etc).

Which is not to say it would not cost you a small fortune to get the ISP to extract data for you in a copyright dispute! Although they are susceptible to the threat of a witness summons....

My "safe" copies are emailed to a friend in a very large City firm who I know are paranoid about keeping all email traffic on massive servers for years just in case they ever get sued for megabucks for giving bad advice.

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Sorry to play the broken record... but this isn't a matter of conjecture or debate, and we aren't music lawyers or judges.

Ann Harrison is a music lawyer, and she's written a very informative book which I recommend you read.

She says (pp 77/8 Music The Business, 2003 Ed.):

You could put the sheet music or demo tape in a safe deposit box marked with your name and the date on which you wrote it and get a receipt.

You could send it to your lawyer and ask him to write back to confirm when he received it from you...

The most popular way is to put the sheet music/tape/disc in an envelope addressed to yourself that you then post to yourself by registered/recorded mail...

When you've been practising law for 20 years (music for 16 years) please feel free to re-open this debate.

Incidentally... there's no mention of electronic records, presumably because they're so easy to fabricate. However, they're your copyrights, and if you want to make legal history be my guest.