I've used behringer mixers for small scale studio and live work and it produces a reliable turnout every time I use it. However, I have had odd and sometimes down right dirty looks from people when I get it out and start plugging things in.

What's the stigma?

Al.

I bought a brand new 3242FX, within weeks 2 channels went down. They replaced it and within a month 1 channel went down.

I then traded up to an MX9000 - within a few weeks 2 channels had gone down. Returned it and couldn't get my money back so it was sent for repair. It returned from repair broken! I exchanged it for a Triton LE

Desperate for a 24channel with direct outs I bought an mx8000 2nd hand - thinking that if at least it enabled me to finish the project I was working on then I'd look for a mixer from another manufacturer, and acknowledge I'll have to pay more for the reliability.

However, over a year down the line the 2nd hand mx8000 is still funtioning perfectly! and yet I couldn't get 6 weeks out of a new one before it conked out!

The thing is, that returning a 24 channel mixer is no trivial task - unpatching etc, lugging down the stairs, reboxing it, then redoing it all again when it comes back from repair etc is a ball buster

So is it just unreliable build quality? Nothing about the sound?

The small ones are great - had one for years now and had no problems at all. I'm not suprised the larger ones screw up easily if they are much cheaper than other desks tho.

I used to work in a music shop and the old (pre Euro rack) models used to be a fair bit noisier than other mixers available at the time soundcraft, mackie, yamaha etc
But once the Eurorack series had revised the line up with the new design pre amps i think they were generally good apart from odd reports of channels going down and some faulty jack sockets (crackly or intermittent).
I own a MX1604A and the connections are temperamental and the EQ is a lil bit dull.
If buying a small project studio mixer now i would go for a tapco or second hand mackie,

The Mic pre's are thin and brittle and still noisier than some...

the EQ is phasey and hard and , basically shite.

Larger desk PSU's are notoriously unreliable and buzz acoustically.

they're generally unreliable.

and longevity isn't usually a term i'd think of in a positive manner when asked .....

For the money though..... they're fantastic if they even switch on!

seriously.... 25 year ago.... when some of us were saving £1000s for something that's no better than the behringer is today, we would have killed for something this cheap that worked at all.......


they still SUCK in comparison to better quality products ... use an Allen and Heath for a month , then try and go back to a behringer without wincing.

there IS a difference , and it's one worth knowing about.... so you can make better informed decisions.....

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Gear List?? What Gear List?? Mine's an Automatic

Quote Aliweasel:

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I've used behringer mixers for small scale studio and live work and it produces a reliable turnout every time I use it. However, I have had odd and sometimes down right dirty looks from people when I get it out and start plugging things in.

What's the stigma?

Al.

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I have 10-12 various bits of Behringer kit and I've never had an issue with any of it. They're never going to have the same build quality as a Mackie or a Spirit, but then they're a fraction of the price, so that's hardly a surprise.

Most people agree that reliability/build-quality has always been an issue with Behringer, but certainly the more recent kit that I've had has been fine on all fronts.

I've had plenty of expensive equipment fail (and not through over-use, we're talking straight out of the box), including TWO TL Audio 5021's, a Mackie Pro, a Yamaha 01v and a Neumann mic!!!

Regards

Anyone I ever talked with that had ANY experience at all with their products - say the same thing, there is something FU**ED up with the thing(s) they bought.

Anyone I know with handson experience from their products say the same thing.

My own story began and ended when (around 10 years ago) where given a behringer desk as a temporary replacement for my mackie which had a busted channel and was being repaired..

Pushing the Behringer desk up was like hearing someone farting - and the thing was so noisy.. I could not stand the sound of it. I tested another model and the problems where the same - so I just waited until I got my Mackie back.

Ofcourse, there will be tons of people saying they had nothing but good experience with Behringer, so it depends on who you talk with. But Behringer is one of FEW companies where so many diffirent people around the world has so much to complain about.. I think that tells alot about it all.. ;-)

I foresee this thread going into double figure page counts.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Behringer are (or at least were, a few years back) well known for their unreliable products.

I used to work in a music shop and used to sell a lot of Behringer products. I recall sending many products back. Everything from mixers to power amps to guitar amps to effects units.

To be fair on them though, since they are a big player in the Industry, and shift a lot of products, then this of course increases the chance of a faulty unit coming back (not really an excuse though!).

I recall a lot of issues were caused by power supplies and transformers. Anything that was either battery powered, or only required little power was generally fine. To sum up, never buy a Behringer power amp! They may well have changed their ways now, but, as with anything in life, you certainly get what you pay for. Don't get me wrong though, there are some great value Behringer products out there. Most of their rack gear is fantastic (and the mixers are pretty good in my opinion). Their guitar stuff is absolutely dreadful though.

Also, when a unit goes wrong, it has to go all the way back to Germany to be repaired.

Guitar stuff is bad? Must say I disagree, my V-amp pro is amazing! Its not a pod pro but I really like it.

You get what you pay for. Period.

I used to use a DDX3216 in my studio a couple of years back as a monitor and feedback controller (nothing in the signal path passed through it), and it proved to be very unreliable, and had to be sent back for repairs. Then the fan went out, and I replaced that myself.

I finally replaced it, and retired the DDX3216 to my teen son's band for his live rig. It has been "OK" there, but not the tape returns are dead, and a couple of the channels are dodgy.

I also used to use Behringer headphone amps. After a year, the first one lost 2 out of the 4 channels. The second one was ok, but I replaced it with a much better system with individual mixers for the talent (a Hearback System).

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Behringer B300 PA speakers: sounded great for a couple of months light use, then one tweeter went, taken to the shop to be fixed, the the other tweeter went, taken to the shop to be fixed again, broken again, fixed, broken, etc etc. Rubbish. Rubbish. Rubbish.

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Battle flags are flown at the feet of a garden gnome.

I've used the MX8000 for 7 years and the only bother I had was overheating PSU, which has been replaced (very cheaply too). The problems with the PSU usually stems from having the meter bridge, which I have, as the PSU only just manages this. The fan speed can be cranked up, which my new one has, and this fixes the overheating problem.

The faders, pots and buttons still work perfectly. My mates 8000 too has given him years of hassle free useage, although he now uses another desk...

The sound is fine, can't go wrong for the price! I don't understand the snobbery. I do want to replace it with a Neve 8816 soon though

P

Look at the amount of Behringer gear on Ebay. What does that tell you?

Behringer stuff's good in that when you start out and need to buy everything, they make just about every conceivable piece of musical equipment, cheaper than anyone else, so you can be making music rather than saving up. I don't think you can argue with that.

However, the bottom line is that everything they make sounds rubbish, and as you upgrade your studio, those pieces of Behringer gear that are still in your signal chain remove the benefits of the good new stuff. It doesn't matter how good your mic and desk are, a 'composer' in the insert will suck all the life out of your sound. I think the reason people hate their mixers is 'cos everything goes through the mixer, so this degradation of quality is across the board.

I used to use Behringer active DI boxes, simply 'cos they were so cheap. I soon realised it was a false economy: on the four-way rack unit I still have lying around, the channels aren't isolated from each other properly, so you have to use all four ground-lifts at the same time to lift one channel, which normally causes more problems than it solves. As it powers from the mains, not phantom, there are usually these ground-loop problems! With no transformers in sight (what was I expecting for £80?!) it doesn't really isolate anything, so it's pretty much useless for what it's intended for (It also sounds terrible, sucking the life out of guitar and removing the bottom octave from everything else)!

As far as reliability goes, though, I've not had the problems others report. My crap DI boxes still work, I imagine, and I have a headphone amp that still gets used once in a while and hasn't developed any problems. The only problem I had was with a handheld BPM counter, on which you clicked the button to the music to determine the tempo. It was really useful 'til the switch became super-sensitive and counted two or three beats for every press, rendering it both useless and frustrating. The switch must only have been specified for about 5,000 presses, not 100 times that, which is what it needed.

Their cheapness combined with the unreliablility means you end up just buying a new one of whatever it was that broke. No-one likes that, do they? I like to feel that if my gear develops a fault, I can have it back to normal service quickly and for a fraction of it's initial cost, not just Ebaying it for parts 'cos that's the cheaper option!

However, I do think that Behringer get singled out unfairly: plenty of manufacturers make things that 'do the job' and nothing else: it's just Behringer are so ubiquitous (they also don't really make anything that salvages their repuatation!) that they get all the stick.

Plus, their products are really ugly.

Well i've used a Behringer Eurodesk MX9000. And qyuite frankly it wasn't the best board to use. Lots of noise, bad pre amps. But having said that.....it's good enough board to learn on.....not great but not bad either......

Shite!!!

Quote g18llo:

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I've had plenty of expensive equipment fail (and not through over-use, we're talking straight out of the box), including TWO TL Audio 5021's, a Mackie Pro, a Yamaha 01v and a Neumann mic!!!

Regards

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Don't even get me started on TL Audio. I've had two of their products. Got the second because the first failed out of the box. Bad, bad, bad. Pots got broken while the thing(s) sat unmoved on a rack in my apartment. Noise, noise, noise. Bad sounding cheep Chinese tubes. Disaster. Channels were not even close to being the same-and this problem was not the tubes! Snap, crackle, pop. TL Audio is the absolute worst for me. $$$$$$$$

And did I mention that I don't like TL Audio?

I was chatting to a certain well known(in the proaudio world) brit today about his popular new console and he told me that the company use some behringer gear in there own studio!

Granted, Id never use a behringer console for pres or eqs, but Ive got one of there headphone amps, and its fine, I used to use an ADA8000 (years ago) for D/A and that was very good too.

I have however got a Bass Vamp with a dodgey input, which is extemely annoying!!

Behringer make simple cheap gear. Yes is can go wrong, or might not sound as good as its "original", but theyre cheap and chearful!

My £00.02
Oz

I have an Ultra Q pro PEQ 2200.
I saw it when buying some other gear... a 5 band parametric EQ for £30...
It's the most disgusting thing I've ever heard, really harsh and horrible.
I have briefly used an MX9000, which didn't sound great and was kinda noisy. The way it was built was just ugly aswell. The buttons on the channels were so uneven that it was impossible to tell if they were in or out. some of the faders were a bit wonkey, and this was a new desk straight out of the box.
I shall not be purchasing any more Behringer stuff in a hurry.
Matt.

Personally I have a BCF2000 and I am very happy with it. In fact I use to have a Mackie Control too, but because of finances I had to sell it... But I was glad that I was able to get an equivalent (does the job for me) for "peanuts".
Mackie MCU was £800 (fader replacement cost £75...)
Behringer BCF2000 was £110 (I am still using it with Logic and it's great)

I say that it's good to have people like Behringer out there, because many poor musicians can afford their products. Sometimes you have a bad Karma, and bad luck hits you, in can happen to anyone. Once I had a Faulty Motu 828MK2, I had it replaced and it was fine afterwards...

Now, as for Mixing desk, if I needed one, depending on the budget, I'd probably go for something like a compact Midas, after all, the Mixer (if you need one), is one of the most important device in the chain.

But further, what I would really do, is get something like a Motu 24 i/o and get some second hands processors, EQs, Compressors etc and a good patch bay, no desk, unless I could afford a proper one...

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-- Fingering the G_string. I play (B)ass Fu(n)k & MIX for the *STARS* http://www.ssradiouk.com/

Wahey! Love a bit of Behringer bashing..

I used to have the 32 channel / 8 bus desk, MX3282. Can't fault it in terms of available features and routing, in fact it was functionally comparable to a mackie 32/8.

Problems included brittle / harsh EQ, and broken channels at the slightest sniff of clipping.

Used to run my mpc2000 through it, and one day decided to overdrive the kick and snare into the red, after which those two channels started dropping out and eventually couldnt be used.

Got rid of it and picked up a Soundtracs Topaz 32.8 instead, which is like the complete opposite, anything put into it sounded awesome.

Theres so many classic quality desks out there now, if your gonna use an analog mixer may as well get one that will impart a nicer sound.

I used to have a small Behringer mixer that I used mainly as a volume control for my monitors.
It worked fine and was good value -

but now having a different setup I now know that the Behringer attenuated the top end.
It would still be handy (good indeed) for some applications.

I've had 2 Behringer desks,and never had any issues whatsoever,my first desk was a secondhand MX8000,never had any problems at all,the worst i had was a few scratchy pots which with a little TLC were sorted out and used it religously for around 5 years until it got pinched after a gig.

I replaced that with the MX3282A,and only just sold it recently, after almost 4 years of constant use,no problems whatsoever with that either and only replaced it with a Yamaha 02R,mainly as i wanted Automation and a better sounding desk,The Berry desks are noisy if pushed too hard,and I'm not a fan of there EQ's but personally,I haven't a bad word to say about them,I know they have a reputation of being cheap and cheerful,but personal experience is that you do get what you pay for,but I've also had expensive gear that didn't last half as long.

For the price of behringers products you can't complain and experience will say that its a luck of the draw situation,like a car,you can have a name brand for unreliability,but for every breakdown theres probably a 100 good models,the amount of stuff behringer do its inevitable that they will have issues,but in my camp there have never been any,although I'm always reluctant when buying new gear,I do tend tostick to named products that have a reliable reputation,but IMO behringer have yet to convince me otherwise that i should steer clear altogether.

Peronally I think Behringer are becoming like the JML of the consumer world,they copy everything else that others do,whilst it may be considered plaguarism esepcially by Mackie!!!,it also ups the stakes of the competition and gives the consumer more choice of affordability

look... as a guy living on a gov disability i can appreciate budgetary concerns... however... let me see other than sounding like [ ****** ].... being of "questionable quality"( you wouldnt believe some of the horror stories from when i was a tech) and being from a co as a corporate policy are theives.... but then you probably use cracked software and download tunes/movies right... you think they steal from everyone else so they can be your friend and give this to you???? your just the last one on the list...

I've had an MX8000 mixer for 11 years now (I got one of the first in the country) and only this year did the power supply give up. It has since been competely rebuilt (uprated) and should last years. Apart from that it has been rock solid. It is very quiet, even with high gain. I don't use the pre's or Eq as i have outboard for that. It has all the spec i need, something digital mixers don't have. I also have several other Behringer bits in my studio which i have no issue with.

I use their £25 cable tester. It's a nice bit of kit, replaceable if it breaks, and it's not in my signal chain.

A few respectable studios I know use e.g. their headphone amps, or use their mixers for headphone mixes only. I don't know anybody who puts the stuff in the recording path out of choice.

OK, maybe the V-amp on guitars. But I'd still record clean and use it later on....

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Aliweasel:

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I've used behringer mixers for small scale studio and live work and it produces a reliable turnout every time I use it. However, I have had odd and sometimes down right dirty looks from people when I get it out and start plugging things in.

What's the stigma?

Al.

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Perhaps its just snobbery! A bit like driving a Skoda which is made by and just as good as a Volkswagen but a few thousand quid cheaper. However its not such a status symbol so there will always be people looking down their noses at it.

If Behringer mixer's work well for you why not carry on using them?

Cheers
Cal

I actually have less against the B stuff then the M stuff!

B. is what it is, very cheap and often (unfortunately) adequate for the job at that end of the market.
The M. stuff has delusions of quality.

The EQs are IMHO useless, and the mic pres not much better, but that goes for both B and M and at least the B was so cheap.

Would I put it in to a venue that specified a J type? Don't be silly, would I put it into a school music room in place of a M desk where there was no technical cover and ANYTHING was going to get wrecked within 6 months? Sure and buy a spare while you are at it....

I actually keep a couple of small desks of this variety (I think mine are Spirit notepads, but same sort of market segment), as utility 'toolboxes' for things like one podium mic and a powered speaker style events. This they do just fine.

I think a lot of the strange looks are down to people taking this very cheap and cheerful kit out of the sort of small, simple, non critical market that is its natural home and pushing it into a market better served by something better.

Both B. and M. are guilty of encouraging this with things like the appalling SR48 and the B equivalent, AAAAARRRRGGG Run, run fast! (Hides twitching in the corner!).

The other thing that rubs people up the wrong way is the tendency B. have of building gear very similar in appearance to successful product from other companies. Now granted there are only so many ways to layout a small format mixer, but the DI, Guitar amp sim, cable tester... I would be pissed if they did it to me, and it does not score them any brownie points with me.

Will I spec their kit? Sure for the right sort of application, does seeing it in a hire rig give me the warm fuzzies? no chance!

Regards, Dan.

A good mixer is a very expensive thing to produce. The components are expensive...good circuit design requires expensive people...it's labour intensive...bulky and heavy to package, store and ship etc etc.

This explains why cheap mixers are always (relatively) bad.

The eq's tend to be nasty...they lack headroom, clarity and image...cross talk is a pain...the features are lacking...blah

If you want a mixer to be good, you need to expect to pay thousands, even for a small format 12 channel or something. Even then there are some dogs around.

I fully appreciate that:

1. A mixer isn't always used as a mixer per se...It might turn out to be a cheap way of getting a few half decent mic pres eg mackie vlz 1202 which has 4 good pres and nothing much of anything else.

2. Sometimes a studio doesn't need a good mixer: It just needs something as a centrepiece.

3. Some musical styles dont need 'sonics'...For example a lot of electronic music has been mixed on Mackie 32:8's. These are BAD desks, but they're great for mixing that sort of music. Some types of music benefit from some distortion. The Mackie becomes a good tool in that scenario.

4. Not everyone needs a GREAT mixer. Some people are quite happy with something that works...(althogh some of these products do slightly play with the definitions in the trade descriptions act)

5. As long as you know what a piece of equipment can and can't do, you can work to it's strengths and avoid it's weaknesses. That also goes for a lot of highly sought after esoteric equipment.

What I'm trying to say is, these things have a place, but it's important to clearly understand what that place is.

J

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www.jackruston.com

I haven't worked much with behringer mixers, just with a eurorack variant in a club for live playing. I thought that the EQ's sounded horrible, and the built-in reverb was useless (but that's usually the case for built-in FX). But for just mixing a couple of things together, without EQ or FX, it did the job. And the output was going to a couple of JBL EON speakers so no quality won there!!
I suppose that you get what you pay for. I wouldn't make it the centerpiece of a studio or plug a neumann mic into the pre-amps recording a top-class singer, but their smaller stuff has it's uses.
I'm currently on the look-out for a small rackmountable mixer to sub-mix my synths. It's purely in the monitoring chain when tracking, not in the recording chain. For that, I suppose their small stuff can hold up, simply because I ask so little of it. But I wouldn't expect more of it.

But isn't that so for every cheap brand out there? You get what you pay for? I hate the phrase 'it's good for the money' in a review, because then you really don't know how good it is in absolute terms...

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"Do not fear mistakes. There are none."
Miles Davis

Although I have my own views on this subject, I prefer to think of B products as entry level for those that would otherwise not be able to afford better built hardware.

If the newbies then take to this industry, they can go buy better quality.

Bubble gum, and bubble gum has it's own uses.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

I have used the UB2442 FX Pro in my studio for 2 years. I have had no problems with it, was excellent value for money and I was very happy with it. I have since done a complete upgrade of my studio and bought a Soundcraft M8. I have to admitt that it is in a different league to the Behringer. The noise level on the M8 is much much lower than the Behringer. I've not tried the pres or eq yet but the overall build quality is far superior on the M8.

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote dickiefunk:

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I (..) bought a Soundcraft M8. I have to admitt that it is in a different league to the Behringer. The (..) overall build quality is far superior on the M8.

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If you think the M8 is so much better in terms of build quality, wait until you get to work with something even better, such as an Allen & Heath MixWizard

The budget Soundcraft desks (the 'Spirit' range) aren't exactly the pinnacle of robustness. Pres and EQ on these low-end Soundcrafts aren't bad, but if you'd compare them with something a little better like the MixWizard, it's like a veil comes off your speakers.

Cheers,
Frank

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Imagination is more important than knowledge - A. Einstein

Yes I agree. Allen and Heath are much better again. I would love to have one of those, but they are 2 1/2 times the price of my M8. I will be looking to upgrade some gear again next year. The Mix Wizard is one of the items on my shortlist. What would be the next step up from the Mix Wizard in Small Format mixers?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote dickiefunk:

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What would be the next step up from the Mix Wizard in Small Format mixers?

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I haven't seen, let alone used them, but I'd be inclined to think that something like the Speck LiLo would be another step up from the MixWizard.

Thay also have a simpler line annex summing mixer called the X.Sum and a rack-mountable mixer called XtraMix.

Cheers,
Frank

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Imagination is more important than knowledge - A. Einstein

Edited by Frank Eleveld (29/11/06 12:04 PM)

Hi Frank thanks for that. I've just looked at the Speck Lilo and it appears that it doesn't have any mic pres. Are there any small format mixers with mic pres that are better than the Mix Wizard?

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www.richardpenrose.com

Quote Steve Hill:

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I don't know anybody who puts the stuff in the recording path out of choice.

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I think you've hit the nail on the head; the 'choice' is one of financial constraint, where that not there then I'm sure most people (including me) would opt for something else.

However, items like their RX1602 would be £300-£400 (if you could find them) from other manufacturers, so for the time being the Behringer stays in my rack.

Regards

ps - My Ultradyne is superb, a very nice piece of kit (and I have DBX, TC and BBE kit in my rack).

Quote dickiefunk:

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Hi Frank thanks for that. I've just looked at the Speck Lilo and it appears that it doesn't have any mic pres. Are there any small format mixers with mic pres that are better than the Mix Wizard?

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Well, then you're really entering expensive territory... Something built from several Daking modules would make a very good small-format mixer, I reckon.

But to be honest - I haven't got any experience with small-format high-end desks. I did use a D&R Vision once - it's modular and as such more flexible as the A&H, but it's also a hell of a lot more expensive...

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Imagination is more important than knowledge - A. Einstein

I haven't had time to read all this but,
as the owner of an MX1604A, MX802A and MX602A (I think those are the right model names) mixers that I bought in 2000,
I think they are crap -
noisy, EQ sounds wick, the normalling of the FX returns jacks goes wrong... basically, they'd just cheap rubbish and I wish I'd bought two good Spirit Folios or sthg instead.

The only mixer I've ever heard that was worse was an Etek one, which is an absolute car crash of crackles, noise and arrrrrrgh.

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~~~ A weasel hath not such a deal of spleen as you are tossed with! www.feline1.co.uk ~~~