This is not a rant, but you need to get past the sorry saga to deal with the basic question later!

An episode before Xmas concentrated my mind. I've had a few cases in the past where someone has left unhappy or whatever (almost invariably no fault of mine, they just didn't get out of it what they wanted), and I've made a commercial decision to do a discount or something to keep the peace and hopefully they'll come back next time. And sometimes they do!

In December I had a band out of left field (they found me through the web) who wanted a week's studio time to do four tracks, including mixing. Very do-able. I asked for and got a £300 deposit on account of a bill that would top out around £1,750 including residential accommodation (quoted in advance; I stuck to the quote despite giving them overtime and other stuff while they were here). They were supposed to bringthe balance of funds with them.

They still owe me £1,450 and don't want to pay.

The session was, for them, a disaster. They did not even finish tracking. They got up late and rarely did anything before lunch. They brought along a 20-year-old arsehole of a "producer" who knew nothing (and nearly trashed another client's work messing around with the studio computer system without permission, in my absence), the singer did not feel up to attempting a vocal take at any time all week.

Their third party funder feels short-changed and is sitting on his wallet. Their fault, not mine. They have no money.

It was clear by the start of day 3 that the producer was the problem, and that they were not going to achieve their objectives. By day 4 we agreed I'd do just a rough mix of what were, at best, backing tracks. The "producer" had a hissy fit and left the building for the day, the whole atmosphere was strained, only one of the band even bothered to sit in while I did the rough mixes (four tracks in four hours - how good do you think that is?) - and so on.

I would not let them leave with multitracks, just four rough stereo mixes. Their stated reason for not paying is that the four rough mixes do not sound professional enough! Well I never!!

I have explained to then that much better mixes are achievable given time, and there is nothing wrong with the underlying multitracks. They at least profess to be too naive to understand that point. Yeah right...

My strong belief is their funder (rightly!) feels they've wasted their time and is holding onto his money to start from scratch in another studio, probably under his watchful eye this time. Probably, they (or he) don't care if I just delete the existing multitracks.

I guess in all honesty that by the end of day 2 I knew we had a problem not of my making, but basically to do with their inexperience and unrealistic expectations. But I stuck at it despite my suspicions ("we've forgotten the chequebook"... "my Mum doesn't know how to do an internet bank transfer"... etc), because I personally wanted to finish the job as far as possible, to the highest standard possible. I'm soft like that.

What does one do? Kick them out? Ask for £1,750 up front? Just not bother with unknowns who you have no reason to trust or distrust? Sue the bastards and enjoy the spectacle of a bailiff confiscating their gear on stage just as they are about to start a well publicised gig?

I'm genuinely interested in how other studios manage these sorts of situations.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

No experience here, but

How much of a Real monetory loss have you made : Not counting hours & labour or rent, i.e actual hardware & parts.
If the £300 has covered hardware & parts costs, then wave it.

Why waste more time, thought, possibly stress chasing after some t*ssers ... apart from maybe some reasons of principle, teach them a good life lesson such that they might benefit from and not do it again to others, and maybe some personal satisfaction.

At the same time, as you said in a previous postm the band was very very good,
and this f*ck up from them due mainly to the tw8t "producer", and the lead singers affiliation with him.
So in a way they should not be "punished" nor their progress hampered.

Personally, if possible, I would teach them a court lesson, if I knew this would Not damage their band or music career, then give the money back to them.
But I imagine in the real world, this is not feasible.


Next time just have some contracts ready, since sadly not everyone is a stickler to their word nor altruistic.

Possibly put the contract on your website and send it to prospective new clients,
so they can scrutinise before they arrive,
or they can show it to their lawyers to scrutinise.
Clearly stating they will need to read and sign this before any work is done.

There is a contract, at least a series of emails which would stand up in any court. I'm good at courts from my past life!

The point is they have not honoured it.

I do understand that all in all I've lost a few days of my life, nothing more. I am largely immune to stress and will probably thrive on giving the little tow-rags a good kicking,

However, I'm not in the business of teaching then "life lessons". I'd like to be able to e.g. take my daughter on a nice holiday. This sort of crap makes the difference between whether that does or does not happen.

And I want some workable ideas to ensure that this episode is not repeated!

Edited by Steve Hill (10/01/07 12:33 AM)

been there done that - steve, pm me if you want a chat over the phone... ...the last time it happened to me, the band (all late teens / early twenties with well to do parents) couldn't play, spent far too much time on the playstation during the mix, and the band 'leader' who had done a music technology course was completely sabotaging the whole affair by asking for 'pumping compression' when he really meant 'transparent compression' on the vocals, and either didn't have the balls to admit his mistake, or just couldn't tell. they refused to pay, and thankfully got their parents involved - i had the parents down for a meeting, no legal talk was required and i didn't even have to mention the dope smoking and playstation activities - i got the balance of the funds & offered them a few hours downtime to fix the mixes if they paid the engineer and never heard from them again...

without knowing more detail, i would threaten legal action - but it depends on who actually booked the studio. these mysterious third parties can be a bugger to catch (in another situation, even legal action didn't work as the third party was successfully able to distance himself from the band), if there are parents involved then maybe you have a good chance, if you can get them to understand the processes involved
cheers
paul

this is a general observation: contract or not - if the demos were 'so-so' would Mr X have paid ? if the demos were brilliant but the singer left the band the day after the session would Mr X have paid ? never give them the elbow room to try this kind of thing on, you'll just get a reputation as a soft touch and you simply do not want to build a client base of people who 'might' pay you if they feel like it - cheers
paul

Hmmmm… yes, ‘difficult’ clients, we’ve all been there.

A few years ago I had one who, although happy with the resulting CD, said the reason that he didn’t want to pay the full amount of the bill was ‘cos it couldn’t possibly have taken that long to track. He actually claimed it took less time than the running time of the CD

Ever since that event all clients attention is drawn to a notice in the entrance hall that reads:

PLEASE NOTE
Accounts must be paid in full before any test recordings, masters or artwork can be taken off the premises.

Not any help for your current situation Steve… I would be inclined to let them know in no uncertain terms that to employ someone and use their services but not pay them is not how the world works!


Sorry… gotta go, I have a session starting shortly…

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Paul and Tim - many thanks to both of you.

I'm slowly being dragged to the conclusion that even rough stereo mixes/mp3 files should not leave the studio while bills are unpaid. Less "professional" clients start judging the quality of the studio, and my skills, based on something dashed off in five minutes at the end of the day - at their insistence! - and saying "well if that's the best you can do we're not paying".

I've even had the management of an unsigned band offer one such rough mp3 to a record label, without my knowledge or consent, who said "nice song but of course it needs completely remixing" and the manager then having a go at me for not getting it right in the first place - this at a time when we had not even finished tracking all the parts! Gaaaahhh!!!

What do you guys do about rough mixes that the band want to take away to listen to e.g. overnight or use as a basis for working out a guitar solo or whatever?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

How about adding an audio watermark to any mp3 mixes, making it obvious to any listener that the mix is a rough unfinished one?

Hi steve,

dont you just love the little sh!ts who do this to us!?!

i've stopped giving credit to bands and ask for full payment up front on all projects now after i got stung on a few jobs (still waiting on payment from august) and this has had quite a nice knock on effect.

When a band/ backers like labels/ parents (god bless them) have paid in full upfront, they then have a vested intrest in getting the band to pull their fingers out and get the jobs done in a professional manner. sometimes it's not so simple, but thankfully, seems to work here.

after one job with a band, i now make every client sign a contract which i have stated in the terms of the studio, such as no smoking drinking or drugs, and i no longer provide much entertainment for them!! maybe i'm just a mean b8stard!

also, when it comes down to mixing, i'll actually take a day away from the project in hand, come back do a rough mix, to a highish standard, then send that to the client. if after that they want more of an input, they come back and spend a couple of hours with me (this has never happened yet thank god!) and all this is written out in the contract

i know that legally it may not be worth the paper its written on, but at least everything is clear before we start, if youd like a copy, send me a pm, i'll email it over.

good luck mate, hope i've been of some help

ben

oh, p.s. the worst payers i've had to date were some big companies and some MATES!!!

--------------------
The early bird may catch the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese!

Cheers Ben, I've sent you an email.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

They still owe me £1,450 and don't want to pay.

---

would the small claims court sort this out with minimum fuss...?

Yes and I've threatened them with it. But there's still a bloody £120 court fee and if they defend it it gets transferred to their home court as opposed to mine, which is 150 miles away etc etc etc....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

With our old studio I found that most people were OK but one or two gave us problems. After the first problem where the client didn't pay and disappeared for a while we drew up basic terms and conditions and had any new client or a representative of the client sign it. After that, the biggest problems we had were with a couple of long established clients who started to run up debts. One of these was paid off a few years later when the client wanted to get hold of his masters but the other was never paid off (although a record dealer I know was also owed money by the same people and got them to clear the debt by giving him a pile of records for him to sell).

Established record labels tend to be fairly slow in paying but at least you know that the money will come through eventually. Of course, you could always ask for bank and trade references if anyone wants to pay in arrears - that's what many companies do if you want an account with them.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

50% up front. Thats what i do. I guess making it clear that any "producer" people bring along essentially washes your hands of responsibility - a producer , after all, is responsible for budget and time used in the studio. He/she is also responsible for keeping the peace (or in the case of Spector, the piece). Record labels / bands give producers the dosh to be responsible for the porject. They arent just soundsmen (which is something one comes across more and more these days - they dont get in here !!). Tough call , Steve. Sorry about it bro'

--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Steve,

maybe they found out who you voted for and then decided not to pay you?

-=insert drum roll here=-

but seriously as Narcoman pointed out, they should be blaming the producer chap who showed up not you...

they should pay you and then sue the producer chap, no?



--------------------
are you ready to RAWK!!!! / Our first Review!

Quote:

---

I'm slowly being dragged to the conclusion that even rough stereo mixes/mp3 files should not leave the studio while bills are unpaid.

---

I’d like to say that the only things that go out the door without me being paid are empty handed scammers… in reality, once I get to know clients and trust them, I am flexible; but not where unknown clients are concerned.

Quote:

---

Less "professional" clients start judging the quality of the studio, and my skills, based on something dashed off in five minutes at the end of the day - at their insistence! - and saying "well if that's the best you can do we're not paying".

---

That’s another potential minefield isn’t it… I’ve done what the client has (against my advice) asked for and then they don’t like the result but you can’t tell ‘em anything ‘cos they know it all… (I’m sure we’ve all met the type)

I’d rather offer some nominal charge after hours work (alone) to do a bit of ‘polishing’ than let something that I’m not happy with leave the studio.

Quote:

---

What do you guys do about rough mixes that the band want to take away to listen to e.g. overnight or use as a basis for working out a guitar solo or whatever?

---

Make sure all outstanding bills are up to date, give ‘em the rough mix and cross my fingers… if they are genuine, having paid up to that point they would be cutting their nose off to spite their face if they didn’t return and finish the job. If they were scammers then at least I have the satisfaction of getting paid for my work… but that isn’t much comfort if the rough mixes get bandied about as finished product… but on the other hand - four fingers and a thumb - you can never control other people and it’s a waste of time to believe otherwise, and that’s doubly true where scammers are concerned.

Err… rambling… it’s been a long (but good) day

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

One other thing Stevo ...

As you are out in the country, on your own, with a young family,
And working from home,
a personal safety thing also comes into it.

Last thing we'd want is for some disgruntled tw8tter to start weilding his axe (guitar)
at you or your gear.

Thus, a pre contract, for new clients, I feel is mos def necessary, with all the issues
you are concerned about clearly stated
: this includes not inviting their grandma if she is going to be playing round.

This as mentioned, can be on your webbsite.
AND sent out to prospective clients to let their solictiors scrutinise.
It should be stipulated that they should clearly read this and sign.
Part of which includes Cleared payment upfront.
They should arrive with payment : either cleared before they arrive or instant transferable funds.
I.e. no bounced cheques.
If you can take Visa etc, brilliant. Or even paypal, but they take 3.5%.

The issue here is that you are providing a service, which unlike say insurance or banking,
is not so easy to valuate for an end client.
And if the end client has little idea of the expertise you are providing,
then they are likely to undervalue you, sometimes considerably.


ps. one of these are rather useful to force payment

I've also had problems in the past, but have found a 50% up front deposit works well. If they're not organised enough to sort this out then they're probably not organised enough to pay for the full session.

Having said that, sometimes it can be better just to write things off and put them down to experience, although not in this case. I'd ask your solicitor to write a letter to them about the matter, possibly suggesting payment in installments.

Well there's still no word from them and my deadline for payment before I litigate expires at the weekend, although I'll probably give them a few days' grace.

Meanwhile, I've emailed a "bad credit risk" warning, stating the facts in a non-defamatory way, to every studio near Brighton I can find on a Google search!

The "producer" guy is just a hanger-on friend on the songwriter with (on his own admission) a cracked copy of Cubase in his bedroom. He had some very bizarre ideas about how to record electric guitars and acoustic grand pianos! I explained to the band when they were here that he was more of a hindrance than a help, but they're in denial.

I did get a £300 deposit being an estimated 30% of the recording costs (but not accommodation costs). I'm changing to 50% of everything henceforth. If they're serious, they'll pay it. If not, they get weeded out before we all get grief, and if I end up having to swallow a loss, it's not such a big loss!

Thanks all for your ideas.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

good luck with it - cheers paul

PLEEEEEAAASSSEE tell us some of these stories... I wanna know about the "producer" pleeeeezzzzzzz....

--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Quote narcoman:

---

PLEEEEEAAASSSEE tell us some of these stories... I wanna know about the "producer" pleeeeezzzzzzz....

---

Yeh go on....

Best of luck with getting the cash of the ungrateful muppets.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Well there's still no word from them and my deadline for payment before I litigate expires at the weekend, although I'll probably give them a few days' grace.

Meanwhile, I've emailed a "bad credit risk" warning, stating the facts in a non-defamatory way, to every studio near Brighton I can find on a Google search!

The "producer" guy is just a hanger-on friend on the songwriter with (on his own admission) a cracked copy of Cubase in his bedroom. He had some very bizarre ideas about how to record electric guitars and acoustic grand pianos! I explained to the band when they were here that he was more of a hindrance than a help, but they're in denial.

I did get a £300 deposit being an estimated 30% of the recording costs (but not accommodation costs). I'm changing to 50% of everything henceforth. If they're serious, they'll pay it. If not, they get weeded out before we all get grief, and if I end up having to swallow a loss, it's not such a big loss!

Thanks all for your ideas.

---

Be sure to post the conclusion to this!

Having been the victor in small claims court situation before ( a non music related incident ) I had faced a similar £100+ charge and around a 100 mile trip. I did win however the other party claimed a lesser income than was true and was able to get away with a pitiful £10 monthly payment for a bill of around £2000.

In your case Steve I realise this kind of outcome would be of little convienience against the amount of hassle it would be to take this people to court, it is probably likely. If you have written documentation however informal it should work in your favour, however musicians being musicians can probably get away with this insult of a payment plan.

However, personally whatever the outcome, even if it was 10p per month i was paid back, I would pursue on a matter of of principle. For me, things like this really stick in my throat so much, irrelevant of the inconvience the moral victory is more important

--------------------
Ryan

what's wrong with us muppets?!!!!

--------------------
The early bird may catch the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese!

Quote RyanE:

---

However, personally whatever the outcome, even if it was 10p per month i was paid back, I would pursue on a matter of of principle. For me, things like this really stick in my throat so much, irrelevant of the inconvience the moral victory is more important

---

I almost hate to say it but I agree with you. I've already told them that it's not really about whether I get the money back, but they will have impaired credit records for at least 6 or 7 years at an age when they might be wanting to think about mortgages, or loans to buy gear, or whatever.

It seems to me that for less than £500 each they can probably tap up parents or something to avoid the grief. So I'll just keep pressing.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (12/01/07 01:05 PM)

Steve, I was a Credit Controller for a couple of years (non-music)- and my main advice is just keep pressing them as you've been doing. You would undoubtedly win any court case and therefore they would be very foolish to let it go that far - they're probably hoping you'll just give up.

You may want to offer them some kind of reduced charge settlement (i.e. you can both cut your losses if you can say 50% of the money now), or possibly even offer longer terms (3 post-dated cheques spread over 3 months might help them swallow the bill).

Nagging always has been the key though...

jb

--------------------
www.myspace.com/thegreatsojourn

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I personally wanted to finish the job as far as possible, to the highest standard possible. I'm soft like that.
What does one do? Kick them out?

---

If the session is going bad, just stop. Do it quietly, but firmly. Don't make a fuss and don't go back on what you have said. Warn them once that they have to be able to complete the project. If they still continue to misbehave or not pull their weight, then just tell them in a quiet voice that the party is over. I had one like that a few years ago where the guy was getting more and more hysterical. On day three, I deleted the project and told him that he owed me nothing and gave him a few minutes to pack and go.

I discovered afterwards that he was a recovering heroine addict and given to psychotic outbursts, but that really is not my problem.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

What does one do? Kick them out? Ask for £1,750 up front? Just not bother with unknowns who you have no reason to trust or distrust? Sue the bastards and enjoy the spectacle of a bailiff confiscating their gear on stage just as they are about to start a well publicised gig?

I'm genuinely interested in how other studios manage these sorts of situations.

---

In nearly 50 years of making music, I have never had a contract and I never ask for money in advance for studio time or my time and I just accept a cheque at the end of the session. I tell them, they only pay me if they are completely satisfied.

In all that time, I have only been cheated once and that was by an agent who cheated everybody. We got our money in the end with a combination of court orders, bailiffs walking in on concerts - best was telephoning his parents and telling them we were desperate. By the time we had finished with him, he was on the phone to us, pleading to be left alone. He was in tears every time we spoke, but we got our money.

I talk to people in depth before they are able to book us. After all those years, I soon get a measure of where somebody is coming from. Our attitude and the fact that everything is done on a handshake with no deposits and no bits of paper, means that paying the bill is a matter of honour.

I have worked with some of the very biggest names in the business, with symphony orchestras and with kids off the street that someone has found busking with a hat on the floor and for me, the golden rule has always been 'trust.'

If somebody is a bit dodgy, then word travels in this business like wildfire. I can think of one English gentleman that tried to stiff several people out of their gig money and he spent twenty or more years unable to book a PA, book a mobile, book a studio or book a lighting rig. Even today, everything has to go through his label and the big promoters do not touch him. 25 years ago he was one of the big five names in rock. Today he plays the 'C' circuit of town halls and university canteens.

I can think of one US band that was the largest act to ever come out of America. They tried to do the bit of paper thing and insist on not playing somewhere because their guitars had not turned up. The contingency payed up, but they never played anywhere ever again.

By using bits of paper and deposits, you are stating up-front "I do not trust you."

You can't blame people for not trusting you in return.

Cheers LV for a very supportive message and a lot to think about. Like you, my nature is to work on trust and a handshake and when all is said and done, I think that's the way I prefer.

I'm not down about this stuff. I had a band in yesterday mixing some tracks they did a week ago and they are, though I say it myself, effusive in their compliments. A (very) pro band was in today for a long tracking session and went out of their way to email me a few minutes ago to compliment me on the drum sound and overall professionalism.

I know there are some nice people out there - a lot of them. The trick is to weed out the dross. I'm very taken with your "moral high ground" recipe: delete the session, tell them there's no charge, and kick 'em out!

It may not put food on the table but hell, I bet it felt good!!!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

back in the days of tape, i used to explain that at one side of the machine room was a large magnet, and on the other side - their multitrack. the magnet and the multitrack were on a converging course and only the payment of the invoice could stop this - just one of those largely obsolete bits of information now though - unless you happen to have a big laser...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

There is a contract, at least a series of emails which would stand up in any court. I'm good at courts from my past life!

---

Are you a lawyer, Steve?
Are you actually calling yourself a lawyah?!!!
LOL.

Dear Steve, your ability to make e-mails stand up in court is certainly an impressive one. But!
Have a look at this:

Quote Steve Hill:

---

By day 4 we agreed I'd do just a rough mix of what were, at best, backing tracks. The "producer" had a hissy fit and left the building for the day, the whole atmosphere was strained

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Nothing got finished while he [the "producer"] took the piss. Eventually (day 4) I banned him from the studio; relations with the rest of the band and especially the songwriter were by then strained!

---

Any lawyer and I mean anyone from real lawyer to Baron Munchausen will tell you, Steve, that these two statements of yours are pretty much everything that is required for you to loose.

You loose, Steve.

Case closed.

I know you are all tough guys.
"Yeah, teach them a lesson!"
LOL.
But I would be a pussy in a situation like this.
I would call the band and ask them to come back and record one song in one day for free.
You said it yourself that the band is good and their songs are good.

One day - one song - just band without the "producer".

I would listen to the recording with the band and only then decide what to do next.

You're clearly as idiotic as my erstwhile clients.

He left after I pointed out, when he finally deigned to get up in the morning (nearly afternoon actually) saying "[ ****** ] this", that he had destroyed some of the previous day's work and moved some other tracks around whilst "playing" with studio equipment without permission. This at a time when I was generously hosting the band in my kitchen (in our house and normally out of bounds to clients, but they were hungry, had no money, and needed to eat). When I asked him if he even understood what he had done, or where he had misplaced the files, he had no answer and walked out.

I told the band I would continue with the three of them and try to rescue their material (which I successfully did) provided the little toe-rag stayed out of the way and did not come back.

There is no inconsistency. Even if there were, I fail to see what point you are making which would require me to "loose" (sic) my case. Is your point that it is OK for people to help themselves to four days' recording services and accommodation without paying for it?

I know my qualifications. I was there. You were not.

Were you?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Out of interest, before the band emailed me refusing to pay, I did indeed write offering them a free day. Provided the producer did not come. Not because I felt I'd done anything wrong, but because I felt they had been somewhat short changed through no particular fault of their own, but because they did not understand the "producer's" shortcomings.

They did not reply to this email and I have since withdrawn the offer.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (14/01/07 11:07 AM)

Quote Little Voice:

---

In nearly 50 years of making music, I have never had a contract and I never ask for money in advance for studio time or my time and I just accept a cheque at the end of the session. I tell them, they only pay me if they are completely satisfied.

In all that time, I have only been cheated once and that was by an agent who cheated everybody. We got our money in the end
I talk to people in depth before they are able to book us. After all those years, I soon get a measure of where somebody is coming from. Our attitude and the fact that everything is done on a handshake with no deposits and no bits of paper, means that paying the bill is a matter of honour. ..

... the golden rule has always been 'trust.'


By using bits of paper and deposits, you are stating up-front "I do not trust you."

You can't blame people for not trusting you in return.

---

It is wonderful for the human spirit to able to undertake any transaction on trust and to be altruistic.
Tremendously liberating & joyous.
Perhaps even more so in a creative process.

If there is a pre contract it is possible that the creative process may become, how to say it, a bit more business like.

But at the same time, it is a sign of the times, and I feel people generally are more ready to accept a contract.

Also given the particular circumstances of where Steve works from, and the services he provides,
including accomodation,
some safeguards are useful.

still having no luck with this one then steve?

i've just come home from the studio after waiting an hour and a half for a band not to turn up!!

worst thing was, i was doing it as a favour for a "mate" coz he's learning to be a producer!!!!

at least i have all of sunday to spend in the pub as the wife is away!!

every cloud and all that!!

ben

--------------------
The early bird may catch the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese!

Def Sec - what the hell are you on about. You're example you gave of Steve's commets was utter crap. Idiot.

As for doing things on trust. Dont. You're in this for business. It IS a business - your client deserves to be treated as a client - with respect and with contract. No professional would and has ever expected otherwise. Then you and the client can enjoy things. Doing things on trust and you are ASKING to be ripped off. If you are a very successful chap and you have a big name, then yeah - im sure you can do things on "verbal contract" and gents agreement. You have the bigger muscle. Abbey road and Air, or the LSO or the Rolling Stones or lawyers or accountants dont do things on gents agreement - so why should you.

--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Quote narcoman:

---

Abbey road and Air, or the LSO or the Rolling Stones or lawyers or accountants dont do things on gents agreement - so why should you.

---

Er, well, I cannot speak for the LSO, but very often, yes they do. If anything is critical like booking a stadium act or a large orchestra, or you are dealing with an unknown quantity and a great deal is at stake, then a cashier's cheque is all the contract you need. And of course, you can't do things like publishing and MCPS etc., without a written contract.

There is a big difference between a letter stating what you are going to do and when you are going to do it and a written contract that one has to read through and sign and counter-sign. Yes, we write letters and emails stating what we will do and when, but if I am to engineer a recording somewhere, a telephone call will do. At least, Narco, that's how you booked me the last time and I trusted you!

I hire lawyers without a contract. I hired a building company to build my new studio without a contract. People like film companies and agencies sometimes ask me if I need a contract or a deposit and I tell them no, I trust them. It is very hard to cheat someone who has just told you that he trusts you.

But back to Steve's problem here!

Steve happens to be a trusting soul and an all-round nice guy. He is very idealistic and wants to reform the World. And like all good reformers, he started with himself and the studio is a large part of that reform process. Along comes some idiot band that couldn't play their way out of a paper bag and bring along a 'mate' who fancies himself as a producer, although he has never ever done one thing as a music professional.

For some reason, these people abound in the music industry. They pretend to be this, that and the other, when in reality they are just the bottom feeders of society. That is why I talk to my customers are great length before they get to record even a note. Even for a two-day thrash, I want to know where they are coming from and who they really are. My product is my best advertisement and just one crap band can spoil all that, so I need to know that what comes out will carry a message of quality. So we talk and I listen, carefully.

That does not mean that I do not make mistakes. I make plenty, I just try not to repeat them. I have actually banned a producer-engineer from using our studio because he was not any good. He talked a very good talk, but he couldn't use a DAW, he couldn't edit, he didn't read music and so I asked him to please not come to us in future. He was just a guy with a mid-life crisis and there's no shortage of those!

Right now, Steve is feeling sullied and hurt. If I think back to my agency friend (who screwed us for a whole lot more) then I know exactly how he is feeling. It is very, very annoying and the worst part of it is that one is annoyed with oneself for allowing these people to do this.

I have no special advice and given Steve's previous career and his work in debt counselling, I very much doubt he needs any from me, other than, now you know what they smell like, so you will smell them out sooner the next time!

A midway point could be, talking at length with the prospective client,
and if one feels a contract may be necessary then doing so,
else going with judgement & trust.

Though personally, if I had Steve's opeartional base,
I would favour somekind of safeguard.

In any case, I imagine when one has a beautiful baby daughter to gaze upon,
it is easy to forget such downers, atleaast for a while.

I think if i had a commercial studio with residential facilities, consumables and so on, then i would be taking a credit card swipe from customers without a trusted account before the services commenced. This is standard in hotels and would seem to be fair as no moneys are actually exchanged until the end of the service period.

Quote Little Voice:

---

It is very hard to cheat someone who has just told you that he trusts you.

---

There's a century of music business practice that says otherwise. I could give you a list. Perhaps you've led a charmed life?

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Quote Rob C.:

---

Quote Little Voice:

---

It is very hard to cheat someone who has just told you that he trusts you.

---

There's a century of music business practice that says otherwise. I could give you a list. Perhaps you've led a charmed life?

---

i can opnly say agin what i said before. (agree with above). Im glad, little voice, that youve never had call to question peoples honesty. Great. Things have been good for ya! But, re-iterating - a letter of intent, which you just quoted IS a contract. Money up front is also always the way. Maybe Abbey Road dont like me then - but its always sign the booking form (a letter of intent or, occasionally, HOA contract) and send the 50%. Again, glad your experience has been that way - but mine, for twenty years, has always been the contractual/LOI/HOA and deposit way. Whether touring (under primary) or recording or TV performance. Without exception.

--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

flippin eck. my typing is terrible. Sorry. Hey , Little Voice - you're not SP are ya?




--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Edited by narcoman (14/01/07 05:46 PM)

Actually, it was not you, but a friend of yours, but on your recommendation. Ta.

If you think about it, we are saying more or less the same things here. LOI and or cash is a contract in the wider sense of the word.

No I have not lead a charmed life and I have been cheated by an agent and I have had the usual difficulties with people for whatever reasons, as have we all! In fact I have been cheated twice by agents (I forgot the other one) and on both occasions we had proper formal contracts with them.

My point is that business is all about trust and having a contract or other piece of paper does not always help. If you look at the two big rock-star examples I gave above, both had contracts and as a direct result of sticking to the letter of those contracts and insisting on their rights under those contracts, they kissed their careers goodbye (they were unbelievably rich anyway).

Of course I realise that a big place like the Abbey can't run three main rooms, several production suites and over a thousand customers a year without masses of structure and organisation and even for the larger agencies, that still means booking forms, etc.

But I am not a multi-room, big city opperation. In fact, very, very few people are in the studio/engineer/producer scene. So after getting screwed over under contract, I havve since relied on my nose instead and it has worked.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

There is no inconsistency.

---

No inconsistency?
Really?

Quote Steve Hill:

---

he had no answer and walked out.

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

The "producer" had a hissy fit and left the building for the day

---

You did it again!
Pardon me for pressing my "idiocy" on you, Steve, but you are lousy even as your own witness.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

There is no inconsistency. Even if there were, I fail to see what point you are making which would require me to "loose" (sic) my case.

---

Because you are not a reliable and trustworthy witness that’s why.
I’m not saying that you are not telling the truth but you are a lousy witness.
And if the band will say that you didn’t deliver professional level of service and that you banned the producer from your studio and they will be consistent with their story you will loose.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Is your point that it is OK for people to help themselves to four days' recording services and accommodation without paying for it?

---

That is certainly not an argument a lawyer would make.

I’m just trying to be helpful, Steve.
I hope you will avoid mistakes you made here if you take the band to court.

Peace.

Here is something you might find helpful.
It’s Steve Albini’s terms:

"You should arrive at the studio with the means to pay for your session. If your band is coming from a country other than the United States or if a third party is paying for the recording, than we will require a wire transfer for full payment of the session prior to the first day of the session. We do not accept credit cards."

I believe that wire transfer in Europe is not as reliable form of payment as it is in the US.

Quote Defence Secretary:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

There is no inconsistency.

---

No inconsistency?
Really?

Quote Steve Hill:

---

he had no answer and walked out.

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

The "producer" had a hissy fit and left the building for the day

---

You did it again!

---

You do understand that inconsistency is when you hold to mutually exclusive statements to be true at the same time? I don't really see how saying that the producer had a hissy fit and left is inconsistent with saying that he had no answer and left.

Oh dear, I fear I may have just fed a troll. Sorry folks.

FMH

I too should not feed trolls. I will leave it to other members of the moderation team to decide whether the hon. member from Brooklyn formerly known as Digital Emotions should be banned (for about the 20th time)

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Yep. Looks like, smells like . . . must be.



--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Quote Little Voice:

---

If you think about it, we are saying more or less the same things here. LOI and or cash is a contract in the wider sense of the word.

No I have not lead a charmed life and I have been cheated by an agent and I have had the usual difficulties with people for whatever reasons, as have we all! In fact I have been cheated twice by agents (I forgot the other one) and on both occasions we had proper formal contracts with them.

My point is that business is all about trust and having a contract or other piece of paper does not always help. If you look at the two big rock-star examples I gave above, both had contracts and as a direct result of sticking to the letter of those contracts and insisting on their rights under those contracts, they kissed their careers goodbye (they were unbelievably rich anyway).

Of course I realise that a big place like the Abbey can't run three main rooms, several production suites and over a thousand customers a year without masses of structure and organisation and even for the larger agencies, that still means booking forms, etc.

But I am not a multi-room, big city opperation. In fact, very, very few people are in the studio/engineer/producer scene. So after getting screwed over under contract, I havve since relied on my nose instead and it has worked.

---

Hi LV

Do however bear in mind that a Contract cuts both ways and it should protect both parties.

Let's say that a band takes time out of their schedule to attend a recording session under your control (i.e they may loose some gigging income, may incurr travel costs etc) and due to unforseen circumstances you are not able to deliver the product (maybe you are ill or the hard disk crashes at the end of the week and you did not have a backup system) and they leave empty handed due to no fault of theirs.

In this instance, a contract might protect their investment of time and cost in the process!?

Regards P

--------------------
Interested in Location recording (Audio & Video)

Quote PatG:

---

Let's say that a band takes time out of their schedule to attend a recording session under your control (i.e they may loose some gigging income, may incurr travel costs etc) and due to unforseen circumstances you are not able to deliver the product (maybe you are ill or the hard disk crashes at the end of the week and you did not have a backup system) and they leave empty handed due to no fault of theirs.

In this instance, a contract might protect their investment of time and cost in the process!?

---

Studio contracts usually exclude further liability and any down-time as a result of equipment failure is mostly compensated with free studio time.

I cannot speak for what other people do, but I am far from irreplaceable. If I fall down dead, a replacement is an hour away. And we keep everything on duplicated RAID arrays AND back up at the end of the day.

But I take your point - the handshake booking means that the customer has to trust the studio and trust them to have full technical back-up and spares for anything that can fail.

Well here's a turn up. They are offering a sort of escrow deal whereby they pay my fees to their lawyers (a respected entertainment firm in London I know and trust), and I do some stereo mixes in something other than a low-res, compromised format - which should be do-able in a couple of hours - and deposit those, plus the multitracks, with the lawyers.

They listen to the mixes at the lawyers' offices and if happy the lawyers release funds to me and recordings to them simultaneously.

This could of course be more procrastination, and does require me to do more work before I see any money. But I would trust the lawyers not to release the recordings without my agreement - it's a striking-off offence if they did so!

I'm minded to do it unless anyone wants to talk me out of it?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Time to get the old turd polishing equipment out then eh?

How come they've suddenly found enough money to pay both you AND their lawyers? And a 'respected and trustworthy' entertainment firm at that!

I'm deeply cynical. The lawyers will cost as much as my outstanding bill, possibly more. I know their rates and am jealous. But they are a firm who sometimes take an "entrepreneurial" stake in new talent....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I'm minded to do it unless anyone wants to talk me out of it?

---

The down side is you would be agreeing to a possible non-payment (if they reject the mixes).

If it was me I go to small claims right now, or at least request payment, no quibbles. You did the work. They stayed at your gaff gratis.

Oh yeah... and name them in public so nobody else gets stiffed.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Quote Rob C.:

---

The down side is you would be agreeing to a possible non-payment (if they reject the mixes).

---

yes, i agree...

you did the work, they stayed at your place... they owe you cash money...

it is very simple.

get your cash money.

--------------------
are you ready to RAWK!!!! / Our first Review!

Surely there are three separate issues here. One is the accommodation and meals you provided, the second is the tracking, and the third is the mixing.

They have enkoyed your accommodation and meals already, and presumably without complaint, so I would insist on that element of the total bill being paid outright without delay.

The tracking and mixing part is less clear cut. If it was me, I'd insist on a payment for the tracking time. The material is on the multitrack after all. They should pay you for that and walk away with the multitracks.

Then you can negotiate on whether they want you to mix the materal.

This whole lawyer business sounds expensive, pointless and completely unnecessary to me. And you could well end up doing a lot of additional work for no income at all.

Take them to the small claims court for the accommodation and tracking work they have had done.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

yep - i agree with Rob, Hugh et al here
but do the band's lawyers have access to all the facts ?
given your background in the legal side of things i'd suggest a carefully drafted letter explaining the details of the session - after all if the tracking is not up to scratch due to their (and the producer's) arsing around, then you haven't got a chance in hell of producing a set of acceptable mixes (within the context of this situation of course!)

as hugh suggests, separate out the different aspects of the budget and make sure they are aware of the stuff that wasn't charged for - after all didn't you feed these guys ? even with a pitiful PDs budget of £10 per person per day, that's an extra £200 or so..?

now you're dealing with a kosher practice - remember your words in the original post "we've forgotten the chequebook"... "my Mum doesn't know how to do an internet bank transfer" - that to me sounds like downright fraud

that's my tuppence worth considering the latest developments
cheers
paul

Yep, I'm still cynical. I've told them I want to talk to the lawyers direct, rather than the band, by close of play today, or I sue.

Of the total bill of £1750, about £150 is mixing time. The rest is tracking and accommodation, food etc. The mixing time is so small because they never finished tracking. It should have been about 50-50. And that of course is the reason why they complain (rightly!) that the mixes they have are a bit rough.

What I want to say to the lawyers is that I'll do some better mixes as a goodwill gesture if I get at least a large proportion of the outstanding debt paid in advance.

While there's a chance of resolving things it's probably fairest to them not to name and shame. If things deteriorate, I will.

Meanwhile, should anyone be approached, watch out for piano-led trios from Brighton!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Yep, I'm still cynical. I've told them I want to talk to the lawyers direct, rather than the band, by close of play today, or I sue.

---

ah - bear in mind that many of the forward thinking lawyers will be flying out to MIDEM today...

cheers
paul

Quote Un! Recordings:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Yep, I'm still cynical. I've told them I want to talk to the lawyers direct, rather than the band, by close of play today, or I sue.

---

ah - bear in mind that many of the forward thinking lawyers will be flying out to MIDEM today...

cheers
paul

---

So? They've got blackberries, surely?!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

heheh - true enough!
cheers
paul

Some of them even have dingleberries!

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

i hesitate to ask :-)

Wot, no news? Are we to take it then that this is now "sub judice" and that "things are afoot"?

Really interested to see how this turns out!

Please continue to keep us posted if you're able

--------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/hol

I've said I'll think about doing some gratis remixes if they first send me £1,100. They can pay the other £362 when they've heard the mixes and then I hand over the multitracks.

As at late last night, they say that having spoken to their "sponsors" there's a cheque in the post.

I wait with as eager anticipation as you do....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

Surely there are three separate issues here. One is the accommodation and meals you provided, the second is the tracking, and the third is the mixing.

They have enkoyed your accommodation and meals already, and presumably without complaint, so I would insist on that element of the total bill being paid outright without delay.

The tracking and mixing part is less clear cut. If it was me, I'd insist on a payment for the tracking time. The material is on the multitrack after all. They should pay you for that and walk away with the multitracks.

Then you can negotiate on whether they want you to mix the materal.

This whole lawyer business sounds expensive, pointless and completely unnecessary to me. And you could well end up doing a lot of additional work for no income at all.

Take them to the small claims court for the accommodation and tracking work they have had done.

hugh

---

That lot needs saying again.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

As at late last night, they say that having spoken to their "sponsors" there's a cheque in the post.

I wait with as eager anticipation as you do....

---

just hazarding a guess steve, but "sponsors" sounds very similar in my book (and from your first post) to "parents" who are hopefully about to cough up for their little darlings fiasco when the threat of court action became far too real

hope it all works out

ben

--------------------
The early bird may catch the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese!

Any news on this yet?

--------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/hol

Blimey what is this - a soap opera?

OK, the "valued clients" sent me £1100 on account of £1462 outstanding a week ago and the cheque's just cleared.

So I'm doing a few hours work doing them some mixes out of the goodness of my heart (for which I won't get paid any more). I will send them the mixes. Not the multitracks. If they are happy they will send me the balance of funds. Then they will get the multitracks.

So not too bad a result come what may... but if they don't pay the balance those multitracks are going into Trash!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

but if they don't pay the balance those multitracks are going into Trash!

---

They may not be your property. I seem to remember a case under English law back in the 80's in which a studio was 'stiffed' by a producer who went bankrupt and the band wanted the multitrack. The studio told them that they had to pay the producer's outstanding debt first and pointed to the studio's business terms and conditions. (Lien on property, similar to a car repair that has not been payed.)

The band brought litigation and the studio had to hand over the 2" tapes on payment for the materials involved, because the music held on them was not theirs to hold in lien, as they had no contractual relationship with the band, but with the producer.

In teh Trash they is nobody's property innit?

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Quote Little Voice:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

but if they don't pay the balance those multitracks are going into Trash!

---

They may not be your property.

---

I probably agree with you, but for different reasons. If they've paid by far the greater part of the bill for "their" multitracks etc, it would be churlish (or legally stupid) to zap their work in a fit of pique.

We'd just end up with a standoff I suspect, with the tracks in limbo until someone blinked.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Blimey what is this - a soap opera?

---

Nah, I just love a happy ending

--------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/hol

Edited by Hol (06/02/07 02:34 AM)

Quote Hol:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Blimey what is this - a soap opera?

---

Nah, I just love a happy ending

---

in next weeks episode, the hotel burns to the ground, steve's dog turns out to be his cousins long lost brothers ex girlfriend who ran away with madge from neighbours, rob c goes on a mad spree with a sheep and a plane lands on top of hugh's patio and all kinds of secrets are uncovered.

meanwhile, nobody saw the muppet sneak out the back door!!!

laters chaps

--------------------
The early bird may catch the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese!

Quote the muppet:

---

rob c goes on a mad spree with a sheep

---

I hope Steve's not going to charge me for that!

--------------------
www.bemuso.com