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jsatopaa



Joined: 23/01/07
Posts: 3
New PA - bash the setup (long post) new
      #410658 - 23/01/07 09:02 PM
Yeah.

I'm a newbie on the forum, have been reading it (thanks, guys, for loads of great advice!) for a longer period but thus far never got into posting anything. I've been working on live sound reinforcement & engineering for a couple of years (as a part-time hobby, though). Now I have a question for you:

We're buying a new PA set for a theatre venue musical kinda production and also for use at clubs etc. It'll have to be able to run five-man rock bands and 13-man acoustic-based jazz groups and everything in between. The set has to be portable enough to be lugged around the country (although with plenty people to lug it around, not only me :P) and because of the variation amongst the bands, we'll have to make it comfort to many different setups, too.

Now, because I'm done thinking over this matter around and over, I'd be pleased to get some insight from you guys: do you see something that absolutely doesn't fit in?

The venues the rig'll be used at are 200-400 people theatres and 200-300 people clubs (especially one that's acoustically horrid). As I mentioned, there are two kinds of bands it'll be used on:

1) drums, bass, a guitar or two, keyb, vocs, backing vocals.

2) drums, bass, guitar, cello, double bass, accordion, alto sax, tenor sax, trombone, keys or two, possibly add in a piano. Two lead vocals, four backing vocals. (i.e. not a joy to mix, imo)

All of it will be run multitrack to a mac w/ a 16-track i/o audio interface for latter editing etc. I won't get to that here, because this step I have quite clear in mind.

So - at last we get to the aforementioned system:


FOH Power Amps:
Crown XLS 602 for hi/mid (cont [Email]2x380W@8ohm)[/Email]
Crown XLS 802 for subs (cont [Email]2x800@4ohm)[/Email]

FOH Loudspeakers:
4x JBL MRX512 for h/m (both 2 wired in parallel, cont [Email]350W@4ohm[/Email], 97dbSPL @ 1w @1m)
2x JBL MRX528 for subs (cont [Email]800W@4ohm[/Email], 97db SPL @1w @1m)

Monitors:
Amps 2x Crown XLS 202
Spk 4x JBL JRX112M

Board:
Alleh&Heath GL2400-24 or Soundcraft GB4-24

FX/Dyn:
Lexicon MX400 multi-fx
TC electronics M350 multi-fx
4* DBX 266 comp/gate
DBX 1215 master-eq
DBX driverack PA louspk manager(...)

mics:
4* Shure SM58 (vocals)
4* Shure SM57 (snare, el. gtrs, accordion)
5* Shure SM93 (mini-lav, horns, cello, violon)
2* Beyer Opus 53 (overheads)
AKG D112 (bass drum)
2* AKG WMS40 wireless
a couple of DI-boxes

Phew. That's all, folks.

So, if you really were able to read this far, I'd be delighted (and very thankful) of any insight you were to provide. I've used all of the aforementioned stuff, but as always, there might be something i haven't taken in account.

So, the word is yours.

Cheers,

Jarno

Edited by jsatopaa (23/01/07 09:07 PM)


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Jumpeyspyder



Joined: 20/01/06
Posts: 1249
Loc: Yorkshire
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: jsatopaa]
      #410676 - 23/01/07 09:32 PM
Hi jsatopaa welcome to the forum

I'm not a PA expert but there are a couple of points worth checking;-

1/ I would imagine a few more DIs would be useful as general problem solvers for ground loop issues.

2/ What happens if a couple of mics are dropped, have you got enough backup?

3/ Cables : Stage boxes, snakes, RCD protection, Etc have you already budgeted for these as they can add quite bit if you havn't.

Hope this is of some use


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jsatopaa



Joined: 23/01/07
Posts: 3
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: Jumpeyspyder]
      #410699 - 23/01/07 10:19 PM
Hi, and thanks for your input!

As for your questions,

1) yeah, that's true - I have an old 8-channel one and a couple passive ones to be used when needed

2) I've got a couple of Beta58's, AKG 414's, sennheiser md421's held under my pillow in a very, very safe place - I wouldn't want anyone to kick the h*ck out of them, and because they don't sound THAT much better, I tend to use them mainly in studio and backup only in live applications. A valid point, though.

3) Yeah, all of those have been taken in account - I was just too lazy to type them down, they're just so ...bulk. Cabling, flight cases, snakes, mic stands, etc etc etc. Solving these out was actually the most tiresome (and oh-so-boring) job..

Edited by jsatopaa (23/01/07 10:22 PM)


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J P



Joined: 05/01/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Hull/York
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: jsatopaa]
      #410706 - 23/01/07 10:34 PM
Hi,
Thats a pretty good rig you'd have there

I'd be tempted to upgrade the poweramps - imho you're a underpowering the speakers - (general rule is 1.5 - 2 x the speaker rating) but it would be ok if you're very careful to avoid clipping them. I'm told Crown xls aren't as robust as the xs range but I haven't used them personally.

I think using jrx monitors me let you down a little in comparison to mrx mains - if you can't up the budget to mrx/srx mons then maybe consider the yamaha club series.

Cheers
John


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cedd



Joined: 26/07/06
Posts: 471
Loc: Leeds, UK
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: jsatopaa]
      #410711 - 23/01/07 10:52 PM
Be careful of the DBX driverack, accordingto some guys on another forum, they have an inherrent fault whereby if you knock the mains off and back on again, they put out a high pitched tone that's pretty damn good at trashing speaker cones. A few people mentioned it, no experience myself, but worth researching.

Maybe a couple of mic splitters?

Obvious step up from the ri you've got there would be a monitor desk as it sounds like manpower isn't an issue.

Wonder about the issue of clip-on mics for saxes, far easie as they always like to move around. Maybe even wireless! JTS do a wireless instrument mic.

Look for a desk where each channel has a VU meter, it'sthe one thing i miss on my desk and i'm having to make my own now!

--------------------
Chris
Radio Communications and Electronics Engineer within the Aviation Industry - plays in the theatre when he has the time!


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jsatopaa



Joined: 23/01/07
Posts: 3
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: cedd]
      #410846 - 24/01/07 10:20 AM
cedd & ZPQ,

thanks for your opinions. Although we're shoveling away quite a pile of money, we're still on a budget (thankfully not a shoestring one - 17500e here in Finland). Therefore the lesser monitors, no monitor mixer, wired sax mics. Those will be the next things I'll invest in, though, when it becomes possible. I'll also try to fit in the more powerful amps, but fearing that I'll have to compromize something else to keep inside the budget boundaries.

Thank you for pointing out the possible issues with the Driverack, I'll have to dig into this - wouldn't make anyone very happy blowing away all the cones and clearing the audiences ears...

Keep on commenting, all of it is appreciated!


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James PerrettModerator



Joined: 10/09/01
Posts: 10658
Loc: The wilds of Hampshire
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: cedd]
      #410940 - 24/01/07 12:31 PM
Quote cedd:


Look for a desk where each channel has a VU meter, it'sthe one thing i miss on my desk and i'm having to make my own now!




A signal present LED is very useful but a full VU meter is probably going over the top - you'll need to think about the extra power consumption if you have 24 channels of metering. I find a combination of signal present LED and a decent PFL meter to work fine.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net


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the muppet



Joined: 27/08/04
Posts: 1010
Loc: with my head stuck up my a£se...
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: James Perrett]
      #411033 - 24/01/07 02:41 PM
Quote James Perrett:

A signal present LED is very useful but a full VU meter is probably going over the top - you'll need to think about the extra power consumption if you have 24 channels of metering. I find a combination of signal present LED and a decent PFL meter to work fine.

Cheers

James.




as far as i ca remember the 2400 has vu's for the groups and 2 for the mix out which work well for pfl metering

but as bloody ever i could be well wrong!

ben

--------------------
The early bird may catch the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese!


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 3989
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: the muppet]
      #411038 - 24/01/07 02:50 PM
Quote the muppet:

Quote James Perrett:

A signal present LED is very useful but a full VU meter is probably going over the top - you'll need to think about the extra power consumption if you have 24 channels of metering. I find a combination of signal present LED and a decent PFL meter to work fine.

Cheers

James.




as far as i ca remember the 2400 has vu's for the groups and 2 for the mix out which work well for pfl metering

but as bloody ever i could be well wrong!

ben




Actually the GL2400 has LED meters on every channel, kind of. I can't really describe them, but they are there, you just wont be able to get a very accurate signal out of them as they are by there nature not very accurate(I think 5 LEDs per meter)

A fair amount of digital desks you can get a seperate meter bridge for that purpose, but in general for GOOD metering on every channel James is right.

Also concerning the Driverack, can't say I have run across the problem mentioned above, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just I never ran across it in my use of em.

Seablade


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MarkPAman



Joined: 06/04/06
Posts: 320
Loc: Somewhere between Portsmouth &...
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: jsatopaa]
      #411181 - 24/01/07 06:10 PM
Quote:

Also concerning the Driverack, can't say I have run across the problem mentioned above, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just I never ran across it in my use of em.






As I understand it, it's only the Driverack PA that has this fault, all the other Driverack units a fine. But I've read about it in several places, so assume there must be some truth in this.


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 3989
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: MarkPAman]
      #411374 - 25/01/07 12:56 AM
Quote MarkPAman:

Quote:

Also concerning the Driverack, can't say I have run across the problem mentioned above, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just I never ran across it in my use of em.






As I understand it, it's only the Driverack PA that has this fault, all the other Driverack units a fine. But I've read about it in several places, so assume there must be some truth in this.




Thats ok the DriverackPA is the only one I have used;)

Seablade


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Sheriton



Joined: 27/01/03
Posts: 1555
Loc: Leicester, UK
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: jsatopaa]
      #412112 - 26/01/07 02:04 PM
I got a 2nd hand driverack 260 after considering the PA. I think it was because the delays weren't long enough for me in the PA. Cost wasn't much more actually.

Just found this quote in the PA's manual:
"It is imperative that the power amps are turned off prior to cycling power to the Driverack™ PA."
They neglect to say exactly why though...

--------------------
There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies


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seablade



Joined: 21/11/04
Posts: 3989
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) [Re: Sheriton]
      #412133 - 26/01/07 03:04 PM
Quote Sheriton:

I got a 2nd hand driverack 260 after considering the PA. I think it was because the delays weren't long enough for me in the PA. Cost wasn't much more actually.

Just found this quote in the PA's manual:
"It is imperative that the power amps are turned off prior to cycling power to the Driverack™ PA."
They neglect to say exactly why though...




Because it is the same reason for anything else in my experience, you send a REALLY nasty pop through. Amps are always last one first off, and that includes even if just powercycling something in your system.

And I agree, the delays on the PA are not long enough.

Seablade


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Sheriton



Joined: 27/01/03
Posts: 1555
Loc: Leicester, UK
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: seablade]
      #412152 - 26/01/07 03:48 PM
Quote seablade:


Because it is the same reason for anything else in my experience, you send a REALLY nasty pop through. Amps are always last one first off, and that includes even if just powercycling something in your system.
Seablade




Oh, I'm well aware of that. It was just the huge bold formatting and use of the word "imperative" that made my cynical little mind wonder whether they knew when that was written that the unit was capable of these driver-destroying screeches that many people seem to have experienced...

--------------------
There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies


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LawrenceH
member


Joined: 28/11/02
Posts: 487
Loc: Cambridge
Re: New PA - bash the setup (long post) new [Re: Sheriton]
      #412187 - 26/01/07 05:35 PM
The A&H 2400 is a great desk for the money and the LED metering on each channel is perfectly adequate - lets you know there's a signal, when you're at unity, and if you clip - all you need unless you're deaf, after all


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