I hate poorly written lyrics so, having started a five year plan to write lyrics I don't despise, I thought I'd ask for advice and book recommendations.

At the moment I'm not writing lyrics but poetry, using Stephen Fry's "Ode less Travelled" as my text book. I'm finding it great fun and I'm paying a lot more attention to the metre of lyrics.

What I find most difficult is to have a consistant focus to the meaning without the metre or rhyme breaking down? An example of this consistant focus is a song like "Salvation Tambourine" by Duke Special

Any advice would be appreciated.

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"Bogling: Is it the new Tango?"

Good lyrics are the hardest thing imo. My favourite books on the subject are Jimmy Webb's "Tunesmith" and Jason Blume's "6 Steps To Songwriting Success". Both books cover a lot of stuff about songwriting other than lyrics. Both books, of course, written by people who've had the hits. But maybe also analyse songs you really like, you know, take them to bits and see how they work lyrically ...

Personally I rarely write lyrics all at once.

I usally have a few lyrics that I like, but if I try and push it and do a whole songs worth at once the lyrics tend to get worse and worse. I come back to a song every now and then and try and add little bits here and there when I have an idea or line which isn't complete rubbish. I do tend to end up with loads of songs without a second verse though which is a pain.

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www.myspace.com/jazzzombies

Personally I love writing lyrics, whether or not they are any good is subjective of course. Even people who think they cannot write can. Maybe not prolifically, but anyone with at least a little creativity is capable, if not then it's more likely a confidence issue.
Perseverance is key, especially if you actually want to express yourself lyrically. You cannot just expect the first thing you write to be great if you are not really a writer. Although of course there are no rules. Just go for it.

Thanks for all the advice. I'm not going to expect anything good to flow for some time and even if it does it may only be odd lines. But I'm going to enjoy finding my voice as I really don't know what I want to write about or whether that fits with the type of music I like to write.

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"Bogling: Is it the new Tango?"

Create a lyric dump - just a text file you use to collect phrases, lines, even single words. Then when you start to write lyrics to a song go back through it and pull out all the words/phrases/lines that have potential. Even if you don't use any of them it's a great way to get the ball rolling, and you never know when that throwaway line you came up with in the pub actually turns out to be the missing piece of the jigsaw. My lyric dump has proved invaluable over the years, and it grows faster than I can use it all.

If you want to get really into it you can create a database, and search for words/phrases/etc by rhyme or mood or whatever. The possibilities are endless...

*Rahnooo*

aaaahh "lyric dump"....

it just rolls off the tongue

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

Some of my most 'inspired' lyrics have actually been phrases which I've misheard. Try asking a drummer to repeat what you've just said!

Also use expressions people are already familar with, but twist them a little bit so they don't instantly recognise them. For example I wrote a song about domestic abuse some years ago which had 3 Coke adverts in the middle eight;

'She can’t teach the world to sing,
And she can’t taste the real thing,
Well she can’t beat the feeling,
She’ll just feel the beating of a frightened man.'

The rest of the song was pretty intense, half the people who heard it cried, & the rest asked my wife if everything was okay! Chrysalis records actually expressed an interest in it from a demo tape but I was too lazy to ring them back.

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Not much in life worth running for. Or from.

Something that I have been a little bit into for a while and am now into big style is using the Ginsberg/Burroughs/Bowie etc cut-up technique a bit. If you haven't heard of it, you'll find a lot of info on the web, but William Burroughs for example, wrote a number of acclaimed novels using only words cut out from other literature rearranged on a page.
Now, for me, I can't come up with an entire decent lyric using this technique. Maybe some people can, but not me. What it DOES really do for me though is churn up some fantastic phrases and juxtapositions of words that I would never otherwise have thought of in a million years, which act as launching points for my imagination.
Now, when I have experimented with this technique in the past, I liked it but found the chore of cutting out words, rearranging them on the page and gluing them on etc. too time consuming, but I knew the technique had something to offer me and I prayed for some decent software to help, which noone ever seemed to come up with.
Now someone has come up with a fantastic and currently free bit of software which uses the analogy of a 4-track cassette recorder to randomly mix up the words from four different pieces of texts, with lots of user controllable parameters to refine the process. It also has a feature which allows you to move your randomised words around with the mouse on a virtual pad and export them as a new text file. I have a scan to text converter on my laptop so I can just pick a page from a book or newspaper or whatever, scan it in as a text file, and put it into the software and get on with the creative process, instead of spending hours faffing around with scissors, glue etc.
Here is the URL for the software, which is currently free to download but may not remain so: Cut'n'Mix software
I have found this to be an excellent way to stimulate ideas, and as I said, I personally couldn't use it to write a whole lyric, but it has really helped my imagination.
Maybe you could give it a try, not everyones cup of tea, but it works for me......

Quote ePhil:

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Any advice would be appreciated.

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Write a lot and focus on the words in everything. The more obsessive you are the better you'll get.

I remember my first songs very well. They were crap.

For several years.

And don't forget... what's the point? The point in what you write is the focus. That's what pulls it all together. To write good lyrics you need good ideas.

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www.bemuso.com

It's a good topic and I guess it's a case of use whatever works for you from each of the different methods.

Personally I've tried sitting and writing a set of lyrics and then going through and adding basic chords and building the song from there and it works sometimes. Nowadays I keep a lyric dump as per other suggestions - just type into my mobile as I'm walking about from either thinking or being sparked off by a song I'm listening to and then transfer into a notepad. I would however rate my lyric writing as poor.

A mate of mine who I write with is very gifted with lyrics and I've spent a while trying to work out quite why they work so well and it's because the guy hears and creates vocal melody lines that I wouldn't even think of which sparks off the interesting lyrics.

My personal opinion is spend time working on coming up with interesting vocal melody lines just singing "dah dah" or whatever over the top then fit lyrics in from there. Lyrics can be changed / rewritten after all but getting a good vocal melody is the true key.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/echoesandhalos[/url]

Quote Bungle1:

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... just type into my mobile as I'm walking about.

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Mind those lampposts, advertising pavement monstrosities etc!

Quote Bungle1:

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A mate of mine who I write with is very gifted with lyrics and I've spent a while trying to work out quite why they work so well and it's because the guy hears and creates vocal melody lines that I wouldn't even think of which sparks off the interesting lyrics.

---

Yes, very pertinent point, can be done either way round though, it can spark off lyrics, but can be done with prewritten lyrics too. With adjustments if necessary. Whatever works though, of course!
Being the singer and lyricist and originator of the melody is a good thing. Especially if a modicum of talent is part of the equation!

Quote Bungle1:

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but getting a good vocal melody is the true key.

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I know what you mean as per your other point, but the true key is the quality of the lyric, the songs subject matter, seeing as we are talking about lyrics! This is why we don't release our gobbledeegook. If it was all about the melody we could just forget the lyrics and just hum, or wail?

Mind you, a lot of bands get away with similar!

And as for you demeaning your own writing, remember it's all subjective and we can't all write great stuff all of the time, if only! When you write something you yourself like that's enough. That's what truly matters.

All the best.

I do several things when writing lyrics;

1. Put my self into a situation (mentally) and write about it.

2. Write about a personal situation, I find that this works really well as it allows me to "get stuff out".

3. I think about my audience, who are they and what would they like to hear about?

4. I have a pad of paper and note-book, the paper stays by my bed and the note-pad stays with me. Ideas come when you least expect them.

5. Morning pages - I write everything that is in my head when I wake up, even if it's rubbish, it helps focus your mind by getting all of the junk out, you may even write something useful!

6. Lastly, don't worry about rhyme too much, rhyming is overated, if you must rhyme then use sound-alikes to help you for example;

Quote:

---

"He's just nineteen going on three - o, (as in 30)
But if she got him alone."

---

The pronunciation is highly important to your metre and rhyme.

Hope this helps!

john

Quote Rob C.:

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Quote ePhil:

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Any advice would be appreciated.

---

Write a lot and focus on the words in everything. The more obsessive you are the better you'll get.

I remember my first songs very well. They were crap.

For several years.

And don't forget... what's the point? The point in what you write is the focus. That's what pulls it all together. To write good lyrics you need good ideas.

---

As ever from Rob, succinct and spot on!

Look at every word in every line. Is the word necessary? Sometimes you can drop unnecessary words and keep the meaning. Sometimes you can drop words and by so doing create a double meaning.

Spend a long time on every lyric. Don't write it in one session and think it's finished. Unless you're a genius it won't be. You'll need to return to it several times to perfect.

It's a bit like carving a block of wood, re-examining, chipping away, to get to the essence. Only with wood you can't put back something you removed if you change your mind.

Personally, I'd be lost without a word processor!

Some of the best advice I got was to try and write the lyric in language which is comfortable, like you would use in conversation with someone, That way it sounds authentic and not phoney, like you;'re trying too hard to be 'poetic'.

But of course it dependss on the genre and your personal style, 'rules' don't fit every situation, this is art not science!

You'll know if you're getting it right if people comment on how they enjoy your words.

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The simplest :

Pick 3 -5 topics close to your heart.
Write a few paragraphs on each ...
Keeping it Real, Down to Earth, Not wussy Nor over emotional.
Write as You would write, Not how someone else, Nor how your musical heroes would.


Pick out the best sentences from each paragraph.
Then edit each sentence to fit into a song.

Thanks for all the advice so far. I'm carrying a notebook with me which contains my meagre lyric dump. I have been side-tracked into Anglo-Saxon Alliterative Poetry at the moment but I'll be back on course soon.

I still don't have a clear conviction of writing style or perspective. Instead of just waiting for inspiration though, I'm writing about whatever subject first comes to mind so at least I can get used to the writing process.

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"Bogling: Is it the new Tango?"

According to the textbooks (and watching the band writing in the studio), the rewrite is *always* more important than the first write. The first write can be prose, fragments, flow-of-conciousness, abstract.

My fav lyrics sound as though the melody is an exaggeration of the natural intonation of saying the lines. Write something, anything, and read it out loud and try to exaggerate the tunefulness.

Steven King says when he first writes a book he tells the story as it comes to him, without interupting the flow. Then, he comes back later and reads it, trying to understand the themes inherent in the material and the images it brings to mind. Then he rewrites the whole damn thing, changing character names, emphasising certain sections, dropping others...

I've tried it on occasion. I wrote some rather boring lyrics "won't you come down, won't you play with me"... as I got deeper into the piece it turned out to be in the voice of a stalker, and the lyrics changed to "won't you calm down, don't you shout at me" which I felt a lot less uncomfortable with. Delivered in a calm, tunefull voice it sounded chilling (to me at least).

Punchline there is, it's hard enough writing lyric, so when writing deny critical thinking. Save critical thinking for when you've got enough stuff down.

Last point: when trolling for ideas, I sometimes get some friends together for drinks and just keep notes on the flow of their conversation; or eavesdrop on people in restaurants; or buy a newspaper.

And no, I'm not famous.

-n.

Quote thedogboy:

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Punchline there is, it's hard enough writing lyric, so when writing deny critical thinking. Save critical thinking for when you've got enough stuff down.

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Yeh, doing a brain dump is a good tecnique. Just keep writing down fragments of lines around the subject as they come to you over a period of days, don't even worry about structure, just get the stuff down. Then later, when there's enough raw materail, start to form it and edit.

A good tip (which i havn't followed myself!) is to buy a little dictation tape recorder thing and always carry it with you, i guess nowadays mobile phones may be able to record? Then just record the idea or line when inspiration hits anytime, anywhere.

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Quote ePhil:

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Instead of just waiting for inspiration though, I'm writing about whatever subject first comes to mind so at least I can get used to the writing process.

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Good plan.

Inspiration isn't a one-way street. You get inspiration depending how your mind is working. So if you never wrote anything and waited for inspiration it would never happen. But write a few songs and throw them away... and your mind is subconsciously on that path. After a bit you'll hit a milestone, and then another... I can remember quite clearly not being able to write what I wanted. A few decades on, I can.

There's a particular thing about writing songs I want to mention (again). Songs are performed, and performance writing is rather like writing a play. Not the dialogue or drama... just the way it's delivered. I didn't notice this for ages but it first became obvious one day when I heard Roger McGough. Oddly, I had loads of John Betjeman, John Cooper Clark, Vivian Stanshall, etc. but I had never twigged that a song is one person speaking to an audience. That changes how you do it very subtly and is an important distinction from written poetry, say.

From there onwards I have a small trick that helps with phrasing. When I have a clumsy verse (for example) that has the correct meaning I sing it out loud - that's important - as I write. The simple act of singing aloud often kicks in your natural phrasing and uncovers the right words.

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www.bemuso.com

Just got home, my head is in the oven.
Dinners on my bacK
i fell like evry other
i went
out for a lesson, like we always do
i found a western, with horses, whosky everything..


its not a game, they told me in quiz school
just a name, defeated by history

turn the centuries, they dond give a damn for me
just a sad speck, not a window, not anything
all the things i want, they dance like clows in the sea
i take my muscle and wave it like a tree.........

of life

all the muscles and the smiles and the skin and strife
wise man once said to me


you werent born to cry and suffer
it is a game of poker, the bankers your mother
your mother loves you, and she's the only mutha
that does...................................
..............................................
.................................................

Kick yourselff hard............................
...................................................


...................... and wake up!!!!!!



[courtesy theopenwater]

Sam Inglis' five part "Wordplay" articles in SOS that ran from Dec 2000 are very interesting.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec00/articles/lyric.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan01/articles/lyric.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb01/articles/lyric.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar01/articles/lyric.asp
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr01/articles/lyric.asp

I have written some lyrics to a couple of tunes that are kinda love songs, but I am scared they don't hold up to the standard they should because they are not abstract. Is that ok or is it weak writing?

Should I post some of the lyrics or do I risk someone ripping them from me?

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http://www.myspace.com/thefjordman - My music
Some more of my music

Quote Rob C.:

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Quote ePhil:

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From there onwards I have a small trick that helps with phrasing. When I have a clumsy verse (for example) that has the correct meaning I sing it out loud - that's important - as I write. The simple act of singing aloud often kicks in your natural phrasing and uncovers the right words.

---

I agree with that... My writing process is this:

1) Come up with an interesting chord progression or a chord progression with some interesting phrasing.

2) Mess about until either words or melody present themselves (sometimes they come together) Once either one comes I solidfy that and begin pulling the other part into what is there.

3) I generally then have to go to work and have the tune running in my head. During work I tend to play about in my head with more lyrical ideas.

4) When I return home I try these ideas and see which ones work.

As a side note I actually managed to come up with a country-esque song sitting at my checkout. It is weird because I can't do country but the phrasing and words kinda flowed.

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http://www.myspace.com/thefjordman - My music
Some more of my music

I personally think one should not attempt to go beyond the sith form.

I'm not advocating glib or bland lyrics but I find lyrics pitched beyond the scope of A level Lit. usually sound pretentious.

Just as the music spurts forth from the depths of your conciousness so should the lyric. I feel the best way is to be well read rather than have a writing system.

" The screen door slams, Mary's dress waves ".....

When this lyric joins to the piano and harmonica intro that preceeds it, it becomes an invitation to the rest of the story of the song and indeed the album.

That's the whole point in lyric writing (IMO), a story. If you've nothing to say - or no story to tell, then dont say it / tell it.

A good lyric always starts with a good story, or something important to be said.

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Baby we were born to run

Good points. Not definitive though. Eh?

There's always room for the abstract. For the lyric that's left open to interpretation. Etc, etc.

But with respect, there's enough subjectivity and room in the world for all forms of writing.

yeah there is a huge world out there so abstract and straight lyrics both have their place...sure even screaming is listened to by people

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http://www.myspace.com/thefjordman - My music
Some more of my music

Quote The real musiclover:

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Good points. Not definitive though. Eh?

There's always room for the abstract. For the lyric that's left open to interpretation. Etc, etc.

But with respect, there's enough subjectivity and room in the world for all forms of writing.

---

Sorry, totally agree with your point there. Not everyone shares the same tastes or needs in music, but good story telling in a song is just my own preference, and seems to engage the listener on a deeper level than material on a more abstract level.( IMO)

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Baby we were born to run

Quote Fjord:

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I have written some lyrics to a couple of tunes that are kinda love songs, but I am scared they don't hold up to the standard they should because they are not abstract. Is that ok or is it weak writing?

---

I don't think it's weak writing at all. Some of the most effective and evocative lyrics which I hold close to my heart have been pretty straight-forward and not necessarily abstract.

Again, it's subjective. Different people look for different things in their lyrics. Some people may scoff at simple love-song lyrics, but a lot of people love them, partly I think because it's so easy to relate.

Well I did have a post here with link to a site that if you key in a word it works out rhymes, some cleaver ones too... which gets you away from the moon is a balloon stuff

Alas it seems to have disappeared

" personally think one should not attempt to go beyond the sith form.

I'm not advocating glib or bland lyrics but I find lyrics pitched beyond the scope of A level Lit. usually sound pretentious.
"


- bang on mate !!

I used to sing in a band write loadsa lyrics etc etc

then as happens, the band fell apart & carried on writing songs that just got blander and blander

eventually just got into music production (hey and actually earned some money)

- now in my early 30s, If I sit down to write lyrics - I sit down, and well thats as far as I get ..

cos hey - I havnt got anything to say !

when your young you've got plenty to say and belief in your perspective, that youthfull vigour can often be worth much much more than "matured" elequent writing, from the eyes of someone whos seen to much of life.

If this was my thread it would be entitled

Lyric writing - how can I get back to 6th form ?

I agree, I think the most difficult part of writing lyrics is disconnecting from your concious logical mind and engaging the free thinking dream like state where great ideas just flow out of your mouth. Oddly I find the best way to do this is to listen to music. The last time it happened was when there was a storm and I had massive attack on really loud, I just grabbed a pad and it flowed out.

Quote blue manga:

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If this was my thread it would be entitled

Lyric writing - how can I get back to 6th form ?

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Yes but... he means how to get beyond average schoolboy lyrics. Yours may have been excellent but mine were crap... I don't want to go back.

I don't think he means how to get literary and pretentious... that WAS my sixth form lyrics.

The hardest stuff to write is the good simple stuff with a strong idea. And the only way there is practise.

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www.bemuso.com

"The hardest stuff to write is the good simple stuff with a strong idea. And the only way there is practise. "

hmmmm, of course it's a process which develops different ways in each human, but for me I can certainly agree with half of that statement.

"the good simple stuff with a strong idea"

Absolutely, but for me my perspectives (and therefore, songwriting muse) WERE simpler, more one visioned, when I was an aspiring wonder filled, one visioned w*anker of a 19 year old !!




I guess that what I'm saying is, my intimate thoughts are now too complex to be expressed with mere words which with a certain twisted irony, makes me a crap lyric writer



However, the journey for each "artiste" is unique, mine just happened in reverse. (started off crap, and slowly got sh*tter)

Cast your mind back ten years
to the girl who's next to me in school
if I put my hand upon her leg
she'd hit me with a rule
though tomorrow won't be long
you're going to have to play it cool

You are fascinated by her
she can set the place on fire

Fire Brigade - The Move (late 60s)

Rob C is close to the point in that I don't want it to sound pretentious and unnatural.

My thoughts and feelings are more complex than when I was in the sixth-form (being a new dad doesn't make things simpler ) and I want to be able to do those justice in a focused manner.

One thing that I hate is the lyrical cliche, whether that is a metaphor or an obvious rhyme but they are sometimes difficult to avoid without making the lyrics stilted.

I am seeing glimpses of my my inner voice coming out in my writing, but they are just nuggets.

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"Bogling: Is it the new Tango?"

sometimes lyrics can be plain terrible when viewed in an un-musical context

but then with the music, bang! they sound bloody genius

for instance 'because' by the beatles

------------------------------------------------

Because the world is round it turns me on
Because the world is round...aaaaaahhhhhh

Because the wind is high it blows my mind
Because the wind is high......aaaaaaaahhhh

Love is all, love is new
Love is all, love is you

Because the sky is blue, it makes me cry
Because the sky is blue.......aaaaaaaahhhh

Aaaaahhhhhhhhhh....

---------------------------------------------

sounds ridiculous, but attatched to music takes on a whole new meaning

my advice is to write lyrics which attatched to music sound right

not standup as written works on paper

because thats not the point is it?

there's lyrics then there's poems, we're in the business of writing lyrics, aren't we?

Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata - Written backwards, then played on Piano - Really think Yoko Ono should have got a Credit for all the work she did

hey, it produced a great song!

nothing wrong with that

all music today is just a re-arrangement, re-interpretation of something else that came before anyway

but lets concentrate on the lyrics!

this might be helpful

cliche finder

Quote blue manga:

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...my intimate thoughts are now too complex to be expressed with mere words

---

I'm always amazed how good language can be... any decent book of quotations is full of complex ideas expressed simply... proverbs, again, very complex ideas distilled into sound bites... and poetry at its best can capture the range of human experience, philosophy and emotion.

If you really are at the point where your ideas are transcending literature, I'd suggest your experience is a rare one.

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www.bemuso.com

LOL, Rob - i'm only making up excuses for being a lazy illiterate slob !

Personally, i can't just sit and write a song, i do it with music. That means playing guitar or keyboard and singing [pretty much what comes into my head] at the same time. Then if i like what's on the tape i tweak a few words or even whole lines. But i still find the best stuff comes out almost fully formed.

So it might be worth giving that a try. Or if you have trouble playing and singing at the same time then record some music and babble over it into a mic.

But for me it all seems to happen at once. Sitting down with a pad and writing words for later sculpting into a song just doesnt work.

Me and my musical partner [drummer] write by hitting the record button and jamming for an hour or so. Stopping when it stops, leave a small gap, drop a marker and off again. The last time he was here we got fifteen pieces out, and i think there are four there worth working on.

Quote blue manga:

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LOL, Rob - i'm only making up excuses for being a lazy illiterate slob !

---

Our way is just about as lazy and fun as you can get, but it still works well.

I thought of an absolute killer of a lyric last night as I was settling down to sleep.
It had me chuckling in wonder as it was the incisive denoument to a tune that would be burrowing in the ears of millions tommorow.

But can I remember it?
CIF?
Lesson: paper and pencil or MP3 recorder by the bed, in the car, in the pocket.
Oooh, and while your about it, avoid expressions like "incisive denoument".

--------------------
With a boom-a-lacka, zoom-a-lacka, wee.

Quote ow:

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But for me it all seems to happen at once. Sitting down with a pad and writing words for later sculpting into a song just doesnt work.

Me and my musical partner [drummer] write by hitting the record button and jamming for an hour or so. Stopping when it stops, leave a small gap, drop a marker and off again. The last time he was here we got fifteen pieces out, and i think there are four there worth working on.

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I'm jealous of people who can write like that. A friend of mine can improvise lyrics and vocals - all his songs are like that, I can't do it to any great extent. Most of the time I spend on a song these days is spent with a guitar or keyboard going over the lines that don't quite work. But I do spend quite a lot of time just thinking and writing anyway, so it's quite natural to me.

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www.bemuso.com

Quote blue manga:

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LOL, Rob - i'm only making up excuses for being a lazy illiterate slob !

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It hasn't harmed Robbie William's career; it's just a collection of random words put to music.

Regards

Quote ePhil:

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I hate poorly written lyrics so, having started a five year plan to write lyrics I don't despise, I thought I'd ask for advice and book recommendations.

At the moment I'm not writing lyrics but poetry, using Stephen Fry's "Ode less Travelled" as my text book. I'm finding it great fun and I'm paying a lot more attention to the metre of lyrics.

What I find most difficult is to have a consistant focus to the meaning without the metre or rhyme breaking down? An example of this consistant focus is a song like "Salvation Tambourine" by Duke Special

Any advice would be appreciated.

---

Back in my aged parents' day they learned vast quantities on poetry by heart at school. Funnily enough they have no problem with metre. Its only natural that we should find it a little harder - I'm guessing its like language and musical instruments that are really best learned young. Not to say we can't improve later in life.

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Daniel Davis
Edinburgh Recording Studio Windmill Sound