Quote Rob C.:

---

Quote Little Voice:

---

It is very hard to cheat someone who has just told you that he trusts you.

---

There's a century of music business practice that says otherwise. I could give you a list. Perhaps you've led a charmed life?

---

i can opnly say agin what i said before. (agree with above). Im glad, little voice, that youve never had call to question peoples honesty. Great. Things have been good for ya! But, re-iterating - a letter of intent, which you just quoted IS a contract. Money up front is also always the way. Maybe Abbey Road dont like me then - but its always sign the booking form (a letter of intent or, occasionally, HOA contract) and send the 50%. Again, glad your experience has been that way - but mine, for twenty years, has always been the contractual/LOI/HOA and deposit way. Whether touring (under primary) or recording or TV performance. Without exception.

--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

flippin eck. my typing is terrible. Sorry. Hey , Little Voice - you're not SP are ya?




--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Edited by narcoman (14/01/07 05:46 PM)

Actually, it was not you, but a friend of yours, but on your recommendation. Ta.

If you think about it, we are saying more or less the same things here. LOI and or cash is a contract in the wider sense of the word.

No I have not lead a charmed life and I have been cheated by an agent and I have had the usual difficulties with people for whatever reasons, as have we all! In fact I have been cheated twice by agents (I forgot the other one) and on both occasions we had proper formal contracts with them.

My point is that business is all about trust and having a contract or other piece of paper does not always help. If you look at the two big rock-star examples I gave above, both had contracts and as a direct result of sticking to the letter of those contracts and insisting on their rights under those contracts, they kissed their careers goodbye (they were unbelievably rich anyway).

Of course I realise that a big place like the Abbey can't run three main rooms, several production suites and over a thousand customers a year without masses of structure and organisation and even for the larger agencies, that still means booking forms, etc.

But I am not a multi-room, big city opperation. In fact, very, very few people are in the studio/engineer/producer scene. So after getting screwed over under contract, I havve since relied on my nose instead and it has worked.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

There is no inconsistency.

---

No inconsistency?
Really?

Quote Steve Hill:

---

he had no answer and walked out.

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

The "producer" had a hissy fit and left the building for the day

---

You did it again!
Pardon me for pressing my "idiocy" on you, Steve, but you are lousy even as your own witness.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

There is no inconsistency. Even if there were, I fail to see what point you are making which would require me to "loose" (sic) my case.

---

Because you are not a reliable and trustworthy witness that’s why.
I’m not saying that you are not telling the truth but you are a lousy witness.
And if the band will say that you didn’t deliver professional level of service and that you banned the producer from your studio and they will be consistent with their story you will loose.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Is your point that it is OK for people to help themselves to four days' recording services and accommodation without paying for it?

---

That is certainly not an argument a lawyer would make.

I’m just trying to be helpful, Steve.
I hope you will avoid mistakes you made here if you take the band to court.

Peace.

Here is something you might find helpful.
It’s Steve Albini’s terms:

"You should arrive at the studio with the means to pay for your session. If your band is coming from a country other than the United States or if a third party is paying for the recording, than we will require a wire transfer for full payment of the session prior to the first day of the session. We do not accept credit cards."

I believe that wire transfer in Europe is not as reliable form of payment as it is in the US.

Quote Defence Secretary:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

There is no inconsistency.

---

No inconsistency?
Really?

Quote Steve Hill:

---

he had no answer and walked out.

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

The "producer" had a hissy fit and left the building for the day

---

You did it again!

---

You do understand that inconsistency is when you hold to mutually exclusive statements to be true at the same time? I don't really see how saying that the producer had a hissy fit and left is inconsistent with saying that he had no answer and left.

Oh dear, I fear I may have just fed a troll. Sorry folks.

FMH

I too should not feed trolls. I will leave it to other members of the moderation team to decide whether the hon. member from Brooklyn formerly known as Digital Emotions should be banned (for about the 20th time)

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Yep. Looks like, smells like . . . must be.



--------------------
Scott
--Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

Quote Little Voice:

---

If you think about it, we are saying more or less the same things here. LOI and or cash is a contract in the wider sense of the word.

No I have not lead a charmed life and I have been cheated by an agent and I have had the usual difficulties with people for whatever reasons, as have we all! In fact I have been cheated twice by agents (I forgot the other one) and on both occasions we had proper formal contracts with them.

My point is that business is all about trust and having a contract or other piece of paper does not always help. If you look at the two big rock-star examples I gave above, both had contracts and as a direct result of sticking to the letter of those contracts and insisting on their rights under those contracts, they kissed their careers goodbye (they were unbelievably rich anyway).

Of course I realise that a big place like the Abbey can't run three main rooms, several production suites and over a thousand customers a year without masses of structure and organisation and even for the larger agencies, that still means booking forms, etc.

But I am not a multi-room, big city opperation. In fact, very, very few people are in the studio/engineer/producer scene. So after getting screwed over under contract, I havve since relied on my nose instead and it has worked.

---

Hi LV

Do however bear in mind that a Contract cuts both ways and it should protect both parties.

Let's say that a band takes time out of their schedule to attend a recording session under your control (i.e they may loose some gigging income, may incurr travel costs etc) and due to unforseen circumstances you are not able to deliver the product (maybe you are ill or the hard disk crashes at the end of the week and you did not have a backup system) and they leave empty handed due to no fault of theirs.

In this instance, a contract might protect their investment of time and cost in the process!?

Regards P

--------------------
Interested in Location recording (Audio & Video)

Quote PatG:

---

Let's say that a band takes time out of their schedule to attend a recording session under your control (i.e they may loose some gigging income, may incurr travel costs etc) and due to unforseen circumstances you are not able to deliver the product (maybe you are ill or the hard disk crashes at the end of the week and you did not have a backup system) and they leave empty handed due to no fault of theirs.

In this instance, a contract might protect their investment of time and cost in the process!?

---

Studio contracts usually exclude further liability and any down-time as a result of equipment failure is mostly compensated with free studio time.

I cannot speak for what other people do, but I am far from irreplaceable. If I fall down dead, a replacement is an hour away. And we keep everything on duplicated RAID arrays AND back up at the end of the day.

But I take your point - the handshake booking means that the customer has to trust the studio and trust them to have full technical back-up and spares for anything that can fail.

Well here's a turn up. They are offering a sort of escrow deal whereby they pay my fees to their lawyers (a respected entertainment firm in London I know and trust), and I do some stereo mixes in something other than a low-res, compromised format - which should be do-able in a couple of hours - and deposit those, plus the multitracks, with the lawyers.

They listen to the mixes at the lawyers' offices and if happy the lawyers release funds to me and recordings to them simultaneously.

This could of course be more procrastination, and does require me to do more work before I see any money. But I would trust the lawyers not to release the recordings without my agreement - it's a striking-off offence if they did so!

I'm minded to do it unless anyone wants to talk me out of it?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Time to get the old turd polishing equipment out then eh?

How come they've suddenly found enough money to pay both you AND their lawyers? And a 'respected and trustworthy' entertainment firm at that!

I'm deeply cynical. The lawyers will cost as much as my outstanding bill, possibly more. I know their rates and am jealous. But they are a firm who sometimes take an "entrepreneurial" stake in new talent....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I'm minded to do it unless anyone wants to talk me out of it?

---

The down side is you would be agreeing to a possible non-payment (if they reject the mixes).

If it was me I go to small claims right now, or at least request payment, no quibbles. You did the work. They stayed at your gaff gratis.

Oh yeah... and name them in public so nobody else gets stiffed.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Quote Rob C.:

---

The down side is you would be agreeing to a possible non-payment (if they reject the mixes).

---

yes, i agree...

you did the work, they stayed at your place... they owe you cash money...

it is very simple.

get your cash money.

--------------------
are you ready to RAWK!!!! / Our first Review!

Surely there are three separate issues here. One is the accommodation and meals you provided, the second is the tracking, and the third is the mixing.

They have enkoyed your accommodation and meals already, and presumably without complaint, so I would insist on that element of the total bill being paid outright without delay.

The tracking and mixing part is less clear cut. If it was me, I'd insist on a payment for the tracking time. The material is on the multitrack after all. They should pay you for that and walk away with the multitracks.

Then you can negotiate on whether they want you to mix the materal.

This whole lawyer business sounds expensive, pointless and completely unnecessary to me. And you could well end up doing a lot of additional work for no income at all.

Take them to the small claims court for the accommodation and tracking work they have had done.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

yep - i agree with Rob, Hugh et al here
but do the band's lawyers have access to all the facts ?
given your background in the legal side of things i'd suggest a carefully drafted letter explaining the details of the session - after all if the tracking is not up to scratch due to their (and the producer's) arsing around, then you haven't got a chance in hell of producing a set of acceptable mixes (within the context of this situation of course!)

as hugh suggests, separate out the different aspects of the budget and make sure they are aware of the stuff that wasn't charged for - after all didn't you feed these guys ? even with a pitiful PDs budget of £10 per person per day, that's an extra £200 or so..?

now you're dealing with a kosher practice - remember your words in the original post "we've forgotten the chequebook"... "my Mum doesn't know how to do an internet bank transfer" - that to me sounds like downright fraud

that's my tuppence worth considering the latest developments
cheers
paul

Yep, I'm still cynical. I've told them I want to talk to the lawyers direct, rather than the band, by close of play today, or I sue.

Of the total bill of £1750, about £150 is mixing time. The rest is tracking and accommodation, food etc. The mixing time is so small because they never finished tracking. It should have been about 50-50. And that of course is the reason why they complain (rightly!) that the mixes they have are a bit rough.

What I want to say to the lawyers is that I'll do some better mixes as a goodwill gesture if I get at least a large proportion of the outstanding debt paid in advance.

While there's a chance of resolving things it's probably fairest to them not to name and shame. If things deteriorate, I will.

Meanwhile, should anyone be approached, watch out for piano-led trios from Brighton!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Yep, I'm still cynical. I've told them I want to talk to the lawyers direct, rather than the band, by close of play today, or I sue.

---

ah - bear in mind that many of the forward thinking lawyers will be flying out to MIDEM today...

cheers
paul

Quote Un! Recordings:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Yep, I'm still cynical. I've told them I want to talk to the lawyers direct, rather than the band, by close of play today, or I sue.

---

ah - bear in mind that many of the forward thinking lawyers will be flying out to MIDEM today...

cheers
paul

---

So? They've got blackberries, surely?!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

heheh - true enough!
cheers
paul

Some of them even have dingleberries!

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

i hesitate to ask :-)

Wot, no news? Are we to take it then that this is now "sub judice" and that "things are afoot"?

Really interested to see how this turns out!

Please continue to keep us posted if you're able

--------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/hol

I've said I'll think about doing some gratis remixes if they first send me £1,100. They can pay the other £362 when they've heard the mixes and then I hand over the multitracks.

As at late last night, they say that having spoken to their "sponsors" there's a cheque in the post.

I wait with as eager anticipation as you do....

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

Surely there are three separate issues here. One is the accommodation and meals you provided, the second is the tracking, and the third is the mixing.

They have enkoyed your accommodation and meals already, and presumably without complaint, so I would insist on that element of the total bill being paid outright without delay.

The tracking and mixing part is less clear cut. If it was me, I'd insist on a payment for the tracking time. The material is on the multitrack after all. They should pay you for that and walk away with the multitracks.

Then you can negotiate on whether they want you to mix the materal.

This whole lawyer business sounds expensive, pointless and completely unnecessary to me. And you could well end up doing a lot of additional work for no income at all.

Take them to the small claims court for the accommodation and tracking work they have had done.

hugh

---

That lot needs saying again.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

As at late last night, they say that having spoken to their "sponsors" there's a cheque in the post.

I wait with as eager anticipation as you do....

---

just hazarding a guess steve, but "sponsors" sounds very similar in my book (and from your first post) to "parents" who are hopefully about to cough up for their little darlings fiasco when the threat of court action became far too real

hope it all works out

ben

--------------------
The early bird may catch the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese!

Any news on this yet?

--------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/hol

Blimey what is this - a soap opera?

OK, the "valued clients" sent me £1100 on account of £1462 outstanding a week ago and the cheque's just cleared.

So I'm doing a few hours work doing them some mixes out of the goodness of my heart (for which I won't get paid any more). I will send them the mixes. Not the multitracks. If they are happy they will send me the balance of funds. Then they will get the multitracks.

So not too bad a result come what may... but if they don't pay the balance those multitracks are going into Trash!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

but if they don't pay the balance those multitracks are going into Trash!

---

They may not be your property. I seem to remember a case under English law back in the 80's in which a studio was 'stiffed' by a producer who went bankrupt and the band wanted the multitrack. The studio told them that they had to pay the producer's outstanding debt first and pointed to the studio's business terms and conditions. (Lien on property, similar to a car repair that has not been payed.)

The band brought litigation and the studio had to hand over the 2" tapes on payment for the materials involved, because the music held on them was not theirs to hold in lien, as they had no contractual relationship with the band, but with the producer.

In teh Trash they is nobody's property innit?

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

Quote Little Voice:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

but if they don't pay the balance those multitracks are going into Trash!

---

They may not be your property.

---

I probably agree with you, but for different reasons. If they've paid by far the greater part of the bill for "their" multitracks etc, it would be churlish (or legally stupid) to zap their work in a fit of pique.

We'd just end up with a standoff I suspect, with the tracks in limbo until someone blinked.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Blimey what is this - a soap opera?

---

Nah, I just love a happy ending

--------------------
http://www.soundclick.com/hol

Edited by Hol (06/02/07 02:34 AM)

Quote Hol:

---

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Blimey what is this - a soap opera?

---

Nah, I just love a happy ending

---

in next weeks episode, the hotel burns to the ground, steve's dog turns out to be his cousins long lost brothers ex girlfriend who ran away with madge from neighbours, rob c goes on a mad spree with a sheep and a plane lands on top of hugh's patio and all kinds of secrets are uncovered.

meanwhile, nobody saw the muppet sneak out the back door!!!

laters chaps

--------------------
The early bird may catch the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese!

Quote the muppet:

---

rob c goes on a mad spree with a sheep

---

I hope Steve's not going to charge me for that!

--------------------
www.bemuso.com