Those of you who have read some of the threads on small diaphragm condensors on this forum, know that I think pretty highly of the Rode NT5's as acoustic guitar mics, and I also think that they are not bad as drum OH mics, although I prefer using AKG 414ULS's when possible.

Well, I now have a new favorite, and it is not even close! I was able to borrow a pair of Neumann KM184's for this week's tracking session, and all I can say is "WOW!"!!!

These things just BLEW ME AWAY compared to the NT5's or the 414's. It is not even close! At the same time, I borrowed a Neumann TLM103 for some vocal work, and I was not very impressed with that, but these KM184's were the most awesome-sounding OH mics I have ever used! I could go on and on...they were THAT good!

We all look for the "wow factor" when we buy or audition new gear, but rarely find it. These things are most definitely "WOW"!!! I rarely get this excited about a piece of gear, but these mics are just wonderful!

I did not get a chance to try them out on acoustic guitars, but I would guess that I would have a similar reaction.

I expected them to be a bit better, but not to this extent. Anyone that says that they NT5s are similar to the KM184's are either deaf, or have not truly A/B'ed them!!!

It is a good thing that I can't afford them right now, otherwise I would find a way to add a pair to the mic cabinet!

Whew! I got that off my chest!!!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

DH

Yeah and Nay... Goto www.microphone-data.com and have a look at why...

These are great on acoustics, but you are not getting a flat sound... If you like 'em great but remember you are getting a cut and lift...

Cheers!

Stop it DH! I don't have any money! Don't punish me!

So what do you like about them Doublehelix?

More clarity in the cymbals? Better stereo image? Etc.

I thought Hugh Robjohns said they were discontinued or something a while back.

Regards,
bassdude

Quote Doublehelix:

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Anyone that says that they NT5s are similar to the KM184's are either deaf, or have not truly A/B'ed them!!!

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Well, as you know "Double" I've been making this point for quite some time on this Forum, usually with reference to the Microtech Gefell M300's which are similar quality-wise to the KM184's. Having A/B'd them carefully myself IMHO the NT5's are really not as great as everyone makes out, although I accept that they are built to a budget. My feeling is that if folks tried out some better mics, as you have, they will 'see the light' and realise it might be worth breaking the bank and going for something that sounds an awful lot better. I agree that the NT5's may be 'good for the money' etc (anyone done a shoot out with SE1's?) but there's just no way they can remotely hold their own against higher priced mics like the MG300 and KM184 - the sound just ISN'T there, it's chalk and cheese. Really.

Of course someone could level exactly the same comments at me in reference to a Soundfield microphone, but that's just the gear Merry-go-round in action - there's always something better around the corner!

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I used to be a rocker, but now I've gone off it and just sit in one. (JL)

Quote RegressiveRock:

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DH

Yeah and Nay... Goto www.microphone-data.com and have a look at why...

These are great on acoustics, but you are not getting a flat sound... If you like 'em great but remember you are getting a cut and lift...

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I looked and the NT5 hf peaks as big as the km184 (2dB) - they are a bit more ragged though. The se1a also has as similar peak and then an even bigger one (4dB) higher up.

Obviously the km184's are not flat, but they're flatter than most of the mic's they're being compared to on this thread

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Midipicks - the all new MIDI Guitar forum...

Quote cc.:

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Quote RegressiveRock:

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DH

Yeah and Nay... Goto www.microphone-data.com and have a look at why...

These are great on acoustics, but you are not getting a flat sound... If you like 'em great but remember you are getting a cut and lift...

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I looked and the NT5 hf peaks as big as the km184 (2dB) - they are a bit more ragged though. The se1a also has as similar peak and then an even bigger one (4dB) higher up.

Obviously the km184's are not flat, but they're flatter than most of the mic's they're being compared to on this thread

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cc

I really like the sound of the km184... I was just pointing out that it is verrrry deliberately shaped... My personal guess with that shape is that they specifically had acoutic instruments in mind... that does not for one second mean that they won't make good overheads...

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Google less; read more!

Quote Bassdude:

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I thought Hugh Robjohns said they were discontinued or something a while back.

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No - the KM 184 is a relatively new mic.

The original KM 84 is discontinued.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote James Lehmann:

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My feeling is that if folks tried out some better mics, as you have, they will 'see the light' and realise it might be worth breaking the bank and going for something that sounds an awful lot better.

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That's what I've been saying for years.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote RegressiveRock:

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DH

Yeah and Nay... Goto www.microphone-data.com and have a look at why...

These are great on acoustics, but you are not getting a flat sound... If you like 'em great but remember you are getting a cut and lift...

Cheers!

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Hey Reg...thanks for the link.

Specs and frequency response charts will tell a lot about a mic, without doubt, but there is more to the sound than just that.

I am not technical expert here, so I can't tell you why, but even though the NT5s are the KM184's have similar freq response charts, they sound *completely* different to my ears. And of course, it is all about the ears in the long run, right?

I am interested in trying them out on acoustic guitars before I have to give them back tomorrow. Hopefully this evening I will be able to go down and do a true A/B with them against my beloved NT5s with my crappy acoustic. It is better than nothing, I guess. The session I am working on right now is all rock with electrics...

If I do get a chance to check them out tonight, I'll post back here with my findings.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Bassdude:

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So what do you like about them Doublehelix?

More clarity in the cymbals? Better stereo image? Etc.

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Absolutely better clarity in the cymbals, and a better overall drum sound.

Due to a scheduling conflict in my studio, I had to split this project into 2 different sessions, about 3 weeks apart. We recorded six songs about a month ago, and now we are tracking the *next* six songs. This means that I have a really good A/B comparision between the NT5s and the KM184s...same drum set/cymbals...same drummer...same musical style, etc.

The overall difference between the KM184 and the NT5s is extreme.

One test that I use to judge the efficacy of OHs is to solo those 2 mics, and listen to the overall drum sound.

First and foremost, how do the cymbals sound?
Amazing, in a word! They are light and airy, and have lots of "ping", especially the ride. The crashes and hats are bright and driving, without sounding brash or like (as I like to call them...) "garbarge can lids". The difference between the NT5s and the 184 was like "night and day" here.

Next, I listen very carefully to the snare.
Also a huge difference here. The snare was much punchier, tighter (not mushy) and cut through the loud cymbals *much* better than with the NT5s.

Finally, I listen to the overall kit sound.
This test includes the kick drum, believe it or not! With the OHs solo'ed, I should be able to hear a fairly decent overall drum sound, and when done right, should end up comprising a large part of the overall drum sound in the final mix.

Just to expand on that last point, with the NT5's, I have the OHs fairly low in the overall mix compared to the KM184's. Now granted, I haven't done a final mix on anything yet, everything is just rough-mixed, but I can still get a pretty good idea of where the OHs are going to end up. The fader positions on the OHs are in quite different locations between their last session and this session, which is really not a good thing if we want some continuity between the songs on the same album. I haven't quite decided how I am going to deal with this yet...

The funny thing about this test is that I really didn't expect the KM184s to be *that* much better. When they were offered to me for the week, I was pretty lackluster in accepting them! A friend of mine just got the pair for his studio, and wanted me to give them a go since he was going to be gone on holiday for about 10 days. He and I are always trading microphones back-and-forth. He had tried them once as OHs, and a couple of times on acoustic guitar, and was just raving about them. He was pretty anxious for me to give them a try, and now I can see why!

These are a matched pair (with sequential serial numbers), and unfortunately they are beyond my financial reach at the moment (or that would be *fortunately* to Mrs. Helix!!! ). They are quite pricy compared to the NT5s...without doubt. I am however convinced that they are worth every penny, and that is without even trying them on anything other than OHs!!!

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

I have learned not to rely on specs too much. The reason is there is no standard in the recording/music industry on how to measure spec's. So you can make them more flattering by having a different beginning point.

Quote Keef:

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...there is no standard in the recording/music industry on how to measure spec's.

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Not for much longer, though.

There are a bundle of mics going round the major manufactures (one or two models from each) and they are all measuring them all, to come up with an AES spec. for measurting and quoting mic. specs.

About time too

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Don't forget that apart from getting good & not so good mic's, you get good and bad cymbals, drums, drummers etc... which all contribute to the sound/tone, and the best mic might not necessarily make the best drummer with the best kit sound best.

Did I use too many 'bests' there?

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Quote BigAl:

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Don't forget that apart from getting good & not so good mic's, you get good and bad cymbals, drums, drummers etc... which all contribute to the sound/tone, and the best mic might not necessarily make the best drummer with the best kit sound best.

Did I use too many 'bests' there?

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I agree Big Al, but if you read my last post, you will see that I had to split this band's session into *two* sessions. The first six songs were tracked about a month ago using the NT5's, and these latest six were tracked this past week using the KM184s...so I got a unique opportunity to track the same drummer, same drums, same cymbals, etc., about a month apart with different OHs...

Now in order to find the "best" (here we go again! ) mic for another drummer/kit, I might have to audition the NT5's vs. the KM184's vs. the 414ULS's to see what works best in that situation.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~