Next you will be suggesting that they need to tell you if your 'old' plugins are unsupported, or that newer plugins can't be ported successfully, or that the new version will overwrite you settings from your previous version, or that you won't be able to open legacy projects, or that the software is full of bugs, or ....

(You get the idea .... )

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote Dave B:

---

Next you will be suggesting that they need to tell you if your 'old' plugins are unsupported, or that newer plugins can't be ported successfully, or that the new version will overwrite you settings from your previous version, or that you won't be able to open legacy projects, or that the software is full of bugs, or ....

(You get the idea .... )

---

On the basis of this argument sellers of a car which comes uniquely with no wheels do not have to advertise that fact.

All other DAWs on the PC universally support DX.

All previous versions of Cubase on the PC supported DX.

Steinberg have made no effort whatsoever to inform purchasers of this change other than a sticky on a non-support forum.

The expectation that an audio host application will support DX on a PC is not unusual, minority or arbitrary. The removal of DX support by Steinberg is all of these things.

That so many people have complained of this at Cubase.net, and that at least some customers in the US complain of having been refused refunds, indicates the scale of the problem.

The point you have raised is at best facile, and runs contrary to obvious honesty and common sense.

Arbiter and all other distributors should state, even in a footnote marked "beware of the leopard" that this host uniquely in the market, and contrary to all prior versions does not support DX.

Dude ... you're missing the point here .... take a deep breath, count to ten and re-read my post .... I'm not necessarily being serious .....



--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Quote:

---

To be fair I do believe that at the Cubase4 launch that it could be sent back for a refund if the purchaser was not happy (even if it had been opened?!). I do not recall the time limit if there was one and again, to balance, I cannot recall when the DX announcement was made exactly and if it affected anyones choice to return C4 or not.

---

This is a local distributor decision I do believe. Read this thread that I started about this subject with the US distributor:



Steinberg Service


Also, I think it was about 2 weeks after the release of CB 4 that Steinberg "fessed up" officially about the dropping of DX support.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Hi - there are arguments both ways about what needs to be put online regarding what formats are and are not supported. I'll speak to our web guys about the DX note as this may need to be treated differently to other compatibility notes such as MAC OS X.x, etc.

My thought is that the DX format is dying, Steinberg have VST as an open source (VST 3 excepted at the moment) format and have no obligation to provide DX support - I will agree however that this needs to be made clearer.

I'm not particularly happy about the comments that anyone has been deliberately misled, but I will look at what our site states.

Anyway, as I said before, please come by at Sounds Expo and have a chat - I hope I'm not going to have to set up an arm wrestling table etc, but will get a little exercise in just in case..

Cheers

Steve Parker
Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group Ltd.

Hi - we've added a note on our site regarding DX support:

http://www.arbiter.co.uk/steinberg/online_shop_steinberg_upgrades.htm< br />
There's also a further link to a couple of wrappers that we've suggested.

Cheers

Steve Parker
Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group Ltd

Quote Stephen Parker:

---

Hi - we've added a note on our site regarding DX support:

http://www.arbiter.co.uk/steinberg/online_shop_steinberg_upgrades.htm< br />
There's also a further link to a couple of wrappers that we've suggested.

Cheers

Steve Parker
Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group Ltd

---

Hero.

Hero maybe - but the blurb still doesn't say that the wrappers won't allow older projects to be loaded transparently.
This is the crux of the matter - a complete lack of compatibility with older projects. Why can't Steinberg take a leaf from Microsoft's book and maintain compatibility, either via an import/export or by simply reading in older format files and doing the conversion on the fly?
From a technical standpoint, it's not that hard, especially with the SX2 and later file format, which is based on a format that was designed to make it easy to maintain forward (and backward) compatibility.
However, rather than consider the professional user (and the serious hobbyist), Steinberg seems rather more keen on devoting resources to implementing more and more bizarre copy protection code and dongle calls than producing something that is genuinely useful and compatibility-maintaining.
For instance, the artificial incompatibility between SX and SE makes it difficult for schools to suggest that their pupils actually buy Cubase, unless the school itself wishes to standardise on SE - else any work done in SX or SL at school cannot easily be ported to SE at home (at least not without the use of SLEX, the utility that removes the artificial incompatibility). It's even worse if the pupil has LE at home.
Even Wordpad (which comes free with Windows) will open a Word document.
Bottom line, for me, is that Steinberg comes across as a money-grabbing company that cares little for its customers, if at all, and is basically dishonest in its dealings with them. That cannot be recipe for continued success.

--------------------
[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

I won't reply about Steinberg anyomore on this thread. I think it's all been said...more than twice. It's time to move on. By the way, I have told you how happy I am with Sampltiude?

--------------------
revelationsoundstudio.com

this is where Steinberg's money is

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2007/Steinberg-Internal-Mixing-DVD.ht ml

instead of hiring programmers to fix the application, they do this..

A tutorial DVD made by an outside company?

I think we can safely say that Steinberg are well aware of the issues, and are working on solving the problems people are facing right now.

Cheers

Steve Parker
Music Technology Manager
Arbiter Group Ltd

Quote Stephen Parker:

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I think we can safely say that Steinberg are well aware of the issues, and are working on solving the problems people are facing right now.

---

I don’t think we can safely say anything of the sort.

http://www.cubase.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=66831&start=50

We can safely say that the problems people are facing right now include unexpected dropping of industry standard features, unexpected abandonment of previously bought products including expensive software hardware, and the breaking of promises made the company.

We cannot safely say *anything* about Steinberg as any commitment the company may make is subject to summary refutation without warning or adequate explanation.

We cannot safely say going forward that the required bug fixes to C4 will be either delivered or delivered free of cost.

We cannot safely say going forward that the next update will not be so commingled with arbitrary new features as to require another payment to Steinberg.

We cannot safely say that the company will be trading for another year, as a consequence of all the other things we cannot safely say.

Quote:

---

We cannot safely say that the company will be trading for another year, as a consequence of all the other things we cannot safely say.

---

Certain mods on another forum have proved that without a doubt. Mini is one thing you cannot safely say.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

Quote tex:

---

Quote:

---

We cannot safely say that the company will be trading for another year, as a consequence of all the other things we cannot safely say.

---

Certain mods on another forum have proved that without a doubt. Mini is one thing you cannot safely say.

---

This is really a shame. I am pretty ticked off at Steinberg, but this is something that I would never wish on anyone.

Think about all they have brought to the market: VST, ASIO...

Let's hope that they get their act together instead.

With the installed base that they have, I can't imagine that they would just go under. Maybe another buy-out?

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

DH, I think you'll find Tex was being sarcastic... The reference was that comments about them ceasing trading or being in trouble were removed / locked by moderators on other forums.

Considering Steinberg are in rude health with a massively expanding userbase, I don't think there's any danger of them popping their clogs any time soon. Cubase is but one chunk of their market.

--------------------
Ars longa, vita brevis, occasio praeceps, experimentum periculosum, iudicium difficile.

Quote redleicester:

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DH, I think you'll find Tex was being sarcastic... The reference was that comments about them ceasing trading or being in trouble were removed / locked by moderators on other forums.

---

Ahhh... got it! Thanks for that! It's still morning here in the States, and I am in need of another cup of coffee...

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

I have been a Cubase user for about 15 years and am alarmed that Steinberg seem to have taken a major tumble lately.

The quality of final releases, the blinkered attitude to the needs of their user base, failure to honour commitments to finish previous bugged releases, failure to deliver promised 64 bit versions, ceasing of support for key hardware...

The features users have been clamouring for for years are still only half-implemented, or are cripplingly bugged (sidechaining, draggable inserts etc). The apparently limited resources have instead been spent on random features that nobody particularly wanted or needed.

For things to get this bad, I can only think there must have been a haemorrhaging of key staff following the Yamaha or even the Pinnacle takeovers?

SX3 was probably my last purchase from Steinberg and I will be looking elsewhere for its successor.

Quote:

---

failure to deliver promised 64 bit versions, ceasing of support for key hardware...

---

Strange one this as before Christmas some posters suggested that 64 bit wasn't necessarily all that much of a good thing. I tended to go along with that on the "if it ain't broke.." supposition. But if it's not such a big deal why did Steinberg go full tilt at it so suddenly? Maybe Sonar hit their panic buttons? One gets the impression that they're still cleaning the coffee off the monitors.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

If i were Yamaha... I'd be gently guiding Steinberg towards a position, where bye, it becomes locked to Yamaha hardware ala ProTools... It might stink, but hey, you can understand why they would do it...

--------------------
nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog

Quote Stevedog:

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If i were Yamaha... I'd be gently guiding Steinberg towards a position, where bye, it becomes locked to Yamaha hardware ala ProTools... It might stink, but hey, you can understand why they would do it...

---

Ah! A Yamaha superdongle.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

Quote tex:

---

Quote:

---

failure to deliver promised 64 bit versions, ceasing of support for key hardware...

---

Strange one this as before Christmas some posters suggested that 64 bit wasn't necessarily all that much of a good thing. I tended to go along with that on the "if it ain't broke.." supposition. But if it's not such a big deal why did Steinberg go full tilt at it so suddenly? Maybe Sonar hit their panic buttons? One gets the impression that they're still cleaning the coffee off the monitors.

---

On a Mac running the future OSX Leopard 64bit in Logic will mean access to 16GB of RAM, not the current limit of 2GB. So all those RAM thirsty plug-ins like Orchestral libraries and Spectrasonics banks in Stylus and Atmosphere will have plenty of room, and Logic won't crash when you load one bank too many!
Vista will have the same advantage when developers catch up.

Quote thedomus:

---

Quote tex:

---

Quote:

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failure to deliver promised 64 bit versions, ceasing of support for key hardware...

---

Strange one this as before Christmas some posters suggested that 64 bit wasn't necessarily all that much of a good thing. I tended to go along with that on the "if it ain't broke.." supposition. But if it's not such a big deal why did Steinberg go full tilt at it so suddenly? Maybe Sonar hit their panic buttons? One gets the impression that they're still cleaning the coffee off the monitors.

---

On a Mac running the future OSX Leopard 64bit in Logic will mean access to 16GB of RAM, not the current limit of 2GB. So all those RAM thirsty plug-ins like Orchestral libraries and Spectrasonics banks in Stylus and Atmosphere will have plenty of room, and Logic won't crash when you load one bank too many!
Vista will have the same advantage when developers catch up.

---

That wasn't a mystery to me. The mystery was that Steinberg seemed very cool towards the 64 bit OS then suddenly dropped half of it's current mainline product as though the 32bit platform was as dead as the Dragon (computer).
ie: No "This what we'e going to do." More like "We've done it now it's all change."
They'll invent new maga libraries to eat up all that extra memory. You watch. They've done it before and they'll do it again. And you'll buy it.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

Reading between the lines and assuming the information given by Eckhard and Christian on Cubase.Net is correct (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), some of the problems Steinberg are having may relate to they way they developed products in the past using third-party developers like Wizoo, Spectral Designs and FX Expansion to develop plugins (click on the names of the plugins to see the credits).

Eckhard mentioned in the case of the Wizoo products like Hypersonic (and presumably SX3 plugins like Embracer, Monologue and Tonic) the ownership remained with Wizoo so Steinberg can't upgrade them. If this is the case with other developers and those developers are now unavailable the plugins can't be updated (like Quadrafuzz).


Quote from Eckhard Doll on Cubase.net Hypersonic/Xphraze forum

Quote:

---

We would have loved to release further updates to all Wizoo plug-ins but since Avid/Digidesign bought Wizoo early last year (if I remember correctly) we had to face several changes and new contracts. Wizoo (now Digidesign) owns the name Hypersonic and we are not allowed to release other software and new versions under that name. The same soon applies to the source code. We are currently planning to release a Hypersonic universal binary update for all Mac Intel users and it looks very good that we can push it through. Please be patient for the official announcement! All I can say is that we never planned to ditch the product, it was simply taken away from us.

---

It's just a theory but I think rather than face another Wizoo situation, they've brought everything in-house and underestimated the workload involved. Interestingly the new Cubase 4 plugins don't show credits (or at least I can't find them), suggesting they MAY have been developed in-house.

Similarly, Midex was a third party product badged as Steinberg. Although it's not being updated because Vista 64 doesn't support DirectMusic which is required for LTB.

Obviously a big part of the problem is bad communication, but perhaps bad management of sub-contractor relationships is the crux of the problem.


Regards, Andrew

Quote Doublehelix:

---

Quote E-Keys:

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Several questions and observations:

1. Do you think Steinberg is surprised at how apparently wide spread the reaction to their decisions would be?

---

No, I honestly don't think they are concerned one bit. They are so cocky, and think that they have the world wrapped up in the little pocket. They have so many customers, they are acting like "good riddance to the whiners".

Too many folks are scared to change, or as has been mentioned, there are not a lot of choices in the PC world, so they feel that they have a lock.

---

Wow, deja vu.

I remember having this very same conversation on the Cubase forum about VST 5. I was like, "what IS this, with the buggy releases and the updates that only seem to replace the bugs with even more bugs?" And everyone was convinced that, even though they hated Cubase for the downtime it imposed on their studios, and hated Steinberg for treating them like a big joke, they couldn't possible change their choice of software because they "had too much invested" in the program. Bizarre - and these were mostly Americans, whom you'd think would understand the power of the free market.

So my wife bought me Sonar for Christmas and I've never looked back.

Yet some things never change. I can't help wondering if two guys right at the top of Steinberg have some kind of wierd bet going, where one is forever daring the other one to see how far he can push their customers before they just do what the customers in any other industry do. And then every day at 5.00 they go down the pub and have a laugh about it.

Quote tex:

---

To be fair I do believe that at the Cubase4 launch that it could be sent back for a refund if the purchaser was not happy (even if it had been opened?!).

---

At least there's a possibility for a C4 upgrade. What about the rest of us who didn't upgrade? Admit it, SX3 is a boat anchor!

I hope there's a lawyer among the "weekend warrior" Cubase users who can spell a Class Action Lawsuit. I've often been against those as I thought they only made lawyers richer. Not this time. I think Steinberg must compensate their users for the broken product, lack of customer support, and a broken promise of remediation.

Quote ASG:

---

Similarly, Midex was a third party product badged as Steinberg. Although it's not being updated because Vista 64 doesn't support DirectMusic which is required for LTB.

---

If that's the case, then at least provide a decent driver so that the unit can still be used. It is still a damned fine interface and works quite fast (maybe not razor sharp as with LTB) on it's own according to the tests I made a while back. It's the abandonment that I take offence at. Ditto the Houston.

If they want a get out clause, then they could point to Apple who have stopped supporting the equivalent of LTB on the AMT8 - CoreMidi doesn't work that way anymore and Logic is now CoreMidi based. That's a bugger, but at least the AMT8 is still a viable unit for the Mac. At the moment, the only OS that is supported for the Midex is XP. That's just plain ridiculous! I can't even switch to a Mac....

--------------------
Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

Hi
'Old Moore's Almanack' Law - every 18 months the amount of computer kit that you have to junk as obsolete inceases exponentially.

Now they've officially closed the book on SX3 it's clear we have been waiting in vain for the things they originally promised back in 2004.

http://www.soundonsound.com/news&NewsID=7148

I'd rather gnaw my leg off than wade through the steaming pile of legalese that makes up a modern licence agreement, but I'm presuming it absolves Steinberg of any responsibility for delivering a quality product that performs as advertised and that we as consumers piss away any reasonable rights the moment we open the box?

Quote Virtuoso:

---

Now they've officially closed the book on SX3 it's clear we have been waiting in vain for the things they originally promised back in 2004.

http://www.soundonsound.com/news&NewsID=7148

I'd rather gnaw my leg off than wade through the steaming pile of legalese that makes up a modern licence agreement, but I'm presuming it absolves Steinberg of any responsibility for delivering a quality product that performs as advertised and that we as consumers piss away any reasonable rights the moment we open the box?

---

This is one of the main reasons why I switched to Sampltiude. I really don't care about no DX. But the customer service, not keeping promises... I just had it. There is life after Cubase. Samplitude has certain querks about it (compared to Cubase which has a nicer work flow on a couple of things), but they listen to their users. 9.1 is coming out in March and is suppose to address some of the concerns many on their forums have talked about. But even in it's current version, I like it better than Cubase.

Yeah, I have to agree with Keef here. Samplitude is nice in a lot of ways, but there are some very nice things in Cubase that I miss as well.

But at this point, I do not regret for one minute bailing out and moving to Samplitude.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Virtuoso:

---

Now they've officially closed the book on SX3 it's clear we have been waiting in vain for the things they originally promised back in 2004.

http://www.soundonsound.com/news&NewsID=7148

I'd rather gnaw my leg off than wade through the steaming pile of legalese that makes up a modern licence agreement, but I'm presuming it absolves Steinberg of any responsibility for delivering a quality product that performs as advertised and that we as consumers piss away any reasonable rights the moment we open the box?

---

Actually, combined with existing consumer laws, all EULAs are illegal without large notice telling the customer to read it BEFORE they purchase the product. It's restrictive on the buyer. They should also be fair (not one sided) and also not overly complex or restrictive to the buyer. After all we all know the EULA of a beefburger. Software shouldn't be that different now that it's had 50 years to mature and get itself self protected without the need of a record contract sized pile of dodgy legalese written by the office boy in his lunch hour for an extra fiver which is what most of them look like if you actually try reading one.
Eula's should also protect the customer from unsupportive software houses.

--------------------
Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

With respect to jumping ship to another DAW:-
does anyone know if you can import a CUBASE 4 project into another DAW. I'm 1/2 way through a project with mainly audio (and crossfaded sections)I wouldn't like to lose all the work I've recorded. I'm not worried about he midi parts or the plug in compatibility issues.

--------------------
"A young man's tattoo, becomes an old man's graffiti" - Image Is Everything
Peter Cyriax PaQ ultra quiet PC system, with some DAW software

Quote Butters:

---

With respect to jumping ship to another DAW:-
does anyone know if you can import a CUBASE 4 project into another DAW. I'm 1/2 way through a project with mainly audio (and crossfaded sections)I wouldn't like to lose all the work I've recorded. I'm not worried about he midi parts or the plug in compatibility issues.

---

You could try an OMF export.

--------------------
G-Dub
Studio G-fx 15inch quad-core i7 Macbook Pro Logic913

Num here. Some of you know me from cubase.net.

I’ve been using Cubase since VST 3.x, and been a denizen of Steinberg’s forums for several years (over 3 incarnations of the forum). I’ve posted as numnutz over there.

I usually ran a little behind other folks by one major upgrade. At first it was due to money, but when SX1 came out (with the famous poof! feature), I decided to let others work out the bugs before I jumped aboard.

So, I was getting ready to buy SX3 when Steiny let loose that DX support was dropped as of now, today, and here on Cubase 4. There was no previous warning at all. The application was out in the wild and after the fact did they acknowledge this fact. They waited nearly a week after a huge thread was posted in their support forum (HA HA! We don’t have a support forum!). The silence was deafening. Perhaps it was a holiday. Perhaps they were hammered with ale. It doesn’t matter, does it. They should have disclosed this plan at the SX3 stage. They knew they were dropping this support.

Now, they say they are dropping DX because of something to do with Windows. Though I am technically minded, I never researched their reasons because other companies continue DX support. I have to ask why can one company do this and the other not (or claim to not be able to) do so?

I really only use one DX plug, so it doesn’t really have an impact, other than the precedent this sets. Yes, today it’s DX support. With the advent of SX1 from VST5 it was the dropping of the mono button, and (for me) no more syncing of my ADATs with Cubase (had worked just fine with VST5). Mixermaps, dynamic events, blah blah blah. It started to add up in my mind. Steiny was just looking for a yearly tithe without actually carrying forth previous functionality. Yes, this is horrific to my thinking, but the dropping of DX support means the end of backward compatibility for many users. Again, not so much of an issue for me, but what gets dropped next, aftertouch? Midi? 16 bit audio?

More importantly, how do they handle this? Nothing. They just let the users drift in the wind. There was no warning, as in a statement akin to “with this release, SX3, this is the end of DX support”. There was no warning with the release of C4. Only after C4 was released, and only after users raised a hue and cry did Steiny come back from their vacations and say “Oh yeah, there is no more DX support, enacted immediately”.

Other Broken Promises:

There was supposed to be a final release for SX3. After keeping the users in the wind for nearly a year, the promised release is canceled. canceled, because Steiny didn’t allocate their resources wisely. Their problem, but they penalize the users. Why? Because they can. They are a faceless entity in a foreign (to me) country that have purposely isolated themselves from their users.

64 bit windows has been planned for years. Years. Everyone knew this as late as 2002. Yet, Steiny are not writing 64 bit drivers for the Midex, their own product!

Steinberg/Spectral Designs Mastering Edition. canceled. No more.

Steinberg Voice Machine. canceled. No more.

The lost features/functionality over the course of time, the broken promises, and the outright lies are just too much to bear. I do not trust them as far as I can throw the internet. To me, Steinberg and Yamaha are dead. I’ll probably never send another penny to either company. I’ll certainly look at them last (if at all) for any hardware or software.

Num

ps As a US user, I’ve never had to deal with Arbiter, but I will tell you that Steven Parker is the only person from any distributor that I can recall ever taking the time to interact with users on the Cnet forums. Though Steiny is faceless, Steven has been a lightening rod (rightly or wrongly), and I continue to hold respect for him due to this.

--------------------
Num

Agreed, Steven is the one and only thing that's good about Arbiter. In my experience, everything else about Arbiter has been totally useless.

Quote numnutz:

---

ps As a US user, I’ve never had to deal with Arbiter, but I will tell you that Steven Parker is the only person from any distributor that I can recall ever taking the time to interact with users on the Cnet forums. Though Steiny is faceless, Steven has been a lightening rod (rightly or wrongly), and I continue to hold respect for him due to this.

---

--------------------
I like people, it's my friends I can't stand - Larry David.
http://www.myspace.com/lodious

Hey Numnutz!!! Welcome to the SOS forum!!! You'll love it here!

Like Numnutz, I have been with Cubase forever (or even *before*!!! ), and as I have posted several times in this thread, I have jumped ship to Samplitude.

Are things all rosy over here now? Not exactly. I am having a few issues with a couple of my plugins (PSP42 and PSP84), but the difference is that Magix is working to help me fix my issues! Wow! What a concept! I actually get to communicate with the developers to work through issues, and they are very receptive to suggestions for improvements to the product (I created a long wish list for their Mackie Control implementation, for example).

The biggest hurdle when switching platforms is being able to keep an open mind and realize that there is a paradigm switch that you need to come to grips with. Things are not going to work exactly as you expect them to, and some small changes are going to have to be made in your workflow and processes. Get used to it! Embrace it!

There are so many cool things about the new Samplitude that never existed in Cubase, and I am quite excited. There are also some things in Samplitude that are not as cool as they were in Cubase. It is to be expected.

As long as I can get my issues worked out with some of these plugins, I am going to be a very happy Samplitude user. If not, maybe I will take a hard and serious look at Reaper (I keep threatening to do that!!!). Either way, I am done with all the shenanigans that Steinberg pulls. I want to be treated with respect.

Goodbye Steinberg.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Doublehelix:

---

Hey Numnutz!!! Welcome to the SOS forum!!! You'll love it here!

---

(wakes up from dream) And I saw you, and you, and you!

Thanks for the welcome Doublehelix. I'll lurk here and there.

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Num

Hello Num. Have you tried Reaper yet? If you haven't, watch the space. http://www.cockos.com/reaper/

It's very interesting.

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Success is round the corner. It's also round the bend.

Hi Tex. No, I have not yet tried it, but I do plan to do so. Absolutely.

--------------------
Num