Having acquired my first ever Mac (a MacBook dual core 2Ghz), it's now time for me to choose my software.

I still have a Windows set-up linked up to my VS2480 via 2xR-BUS cards, and I'm running quite a number of applications on that, including Wavelab 5, which I absolutely love, and is one of the reasons why I will continue to keep a Windows pc handy in the studio. Now, I know that Wavelab is not supported on the Mac.

Of the other applications that I run is Ableton Live 5, which I absolutely love also. Now, I know that Ableton Live 6 is optimised to run on the new intel dual core Mac processors.

Problem is, a mate of mine has told me to get Logic Pro, as he claims it's the only real pro option for me on the Mac. But Live 6 is half the price of Logic Pro, and does everything that I want it to.

Is Logic Pro really twice the package of Live 6?

Some guidance from seasoned users of each (and preferably both) package would be greatly appreciated.

I should add, that I will be linking the MacBook up to my Yamaha 01X.

I use both, and both are fantastic. I think logic still has the best midi editing of any program. The included plug-ins are great, and I really like the audio editor in logic. Live does not have an audio editor, everything is non-destructive but of course you can make changes and bounce down. Live doesn't use a dongle which is cool for a laptop. I really think it depends on how you make music. If you make electronic music, where you are looping things a lot (not that electronic music needs to have loops!!!) then Live is the way to go I think. But for more traditional multitrack recording, editing, mixing, etc I'd recommend Logic.
Since you already know Live though, I think you'll be more productive with that and I'd say Live has been a little more inspiring to work with for me at least recently. Getting Live and some nice plug-ins would be a good way to go, I like the waves rennisance comp and eq, but I don't have them anymore.:(
Too bad there is no demo of logic (that I'm aware of at least). I learned how to use Live with their demo, and I got hooked and bought it. Good buisiness strategy!
I would definatly recommend getting both down the line though.

I have and use both. Live for jamming, generating ideas, beat-type music, working on-the-fly arrangements and so on, and Logic for *serious* music, audio multitracking, and mixing.

If I could only have one it would be Logic by a mile, but Live is superb. So it depends on your requirements - the upgrade to Live 6 for you is only about a hundred bucks so I'd get that anyway. Then if you have money, and you're finding Live isn't doing everything for you, then perhaps look at Logic.

Quote leslawrenson:

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I should add, that I will be linking the MacBook up to my Yamaha 01X.

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Good luck - and I mean that most sincerely folks - you're gonna need it. . . .

imho Logic sounds a little bit clearer than live 5 (not tested 6), I think the audio engine in live is geared towards handling everything thrown at it whereas logic is pretty clean. I base this on having exported files directly out of live 5 into logic and without any effects or any mixing it just sounded better to my ears. I didn't really expect that, and I wasn't 'testing' it, just part of a project.

I find it really hard to finish track *just* in live, but that could just be my methodology.

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http://blokezero.com
myspace/blokezero

I only have live 6. I like it for its fast work-environnement.
However, i have my doubts on the includes plugin's. I don't get the quality that i hear even in Garageband! That said, some of Garageband effects are moderate too.
But i have the feeling that if you want a pro sound, you (and I) need to go logic OR cash out on some high qualty plugins like waves and likes...
But how much do you spend following that route?
Just my thoughts....

Best

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www.lablizard.be

Logic any day.
Live is ok, but Logic seems to do everything Live can do, only more and better !
I am not a Live expert and being an old fart I find it a bit "painting by numbers" for me. Whilst I am sure this is a generation thing, I do belive making music fom a bunch of pre-recorded loops is not truly creative.

That said, loops can inspire momnet of pure genious ( ! )
I am certain Live is great tool, but for me, to make a track out of someone elses work is not where it's at.
Sorry, I am not a Loop-Jockey and whilst my fingers and grey-matter still work, I prefer to create and play a tune.

Just so you know, Garage Band is based on the Logic audio engine - so you can use GB plugs in Logic and all the GB loops too.
In fact they are ready to go, with no extra effort, once Logic is installed.

Logic, the thinking man's choice.

Quote leslawrenson:

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Of the other applications that I run is Ableton Live 5, which I absolutely love also. ... Problem is, a mate of mine has told me to get Logic Pro, as he claims it's the only real pro option for me on the Mac. But Live 6 is half the price of Logic Pro, and does everything that I want it to.

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So you have an application that does everything you want, but someone has told you it's not 'pro' enough and you're considering paying out more for a 'pro' solution on the basis of that? Is there any part of Ableton that you are unhappy with? For instance I am using Logic Express and will be upgrading to Pro because there are things that annoy me about Express that are fixed in Pro.

FWIW it seems to me that workflow in Logic is pretty different from Live. I think there's a demo on the Apple site, d/load it and see whether the way you work in Logic suits you.

FMH

Hi leslawrenson,

xFasterMikeyH is right..

But for now why not download a trial of Logic Express & see if you can get on with Logic & then you can make your own mind up.

The link for the Logic Express trial is: http://www.apple.com/logicexpress/trial/

Have a go & see what you think...

EDIT: Oops the trial does not run on intel....

So, why not upgrade to live 6 & see how you do?

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| iMac 24" Core2Duo | 2GB RAM | Reason 3 | Logic 7.2 | ReCycle 2.1 | Ohmboyz! | Alesis iO 26

Edited by Ben Toms (23/03/07 10:14 AM)

IMHO they're not really equivalent- ableton is completely geared to working with audio 'chunks' and loop-based music (as I'm sure you know) and tends to be a bit 'lumpy' when asked to do more normal duties, and personally I find it much harder to to do complex arrangements, especially if the music requires parts that don't necessarily start and finish bang on the bar- it can be done, but it's much, much, slower than in Logic.

Logic, on the other hand, won't allow you such quick access to time-stretched and generally messed about loops(though it can do it...), but will give you the tools for just about any other form of recording, and a completely open environment for making your own 'desk' with virtually unlimited tracks, auxes, busses, etc.

In the end you really need both, to cover all the bases- and my PPC G5 can cope with Logic + Live running on rewire- that way I can screw things up nicely in Ableton and then run them into Logic for more easy arrangement.

Stick with Ableton (you know it, and like it), and then maybe check out Logic once you're feeling a bit richer !

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote xFasterMikeyH:

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Quote leslawrenson:

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Of the other applications that I run is Ableton Live 5, which I absolutely love also. ... Problem is, a mate of mine has told me to get Logic Pro, as he claims it's the only real pro option for me on the Mac. But Live 6 is half the price of Logic Pro, and does everything that I want it to.

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So you have an application that does everything you want, but someone has told you it's not 'pro' enough and you're considering paying out more for a 'pro' solution on the basis of that? Is there any part of Ableton that you are unhappy with? For instance I am using Logic Express and will be upgrading to Pro because there are things that annoy me about Express that are fixed in Pro.

FWIW it seems to me that workflow in Logic is pretty different from Live. I think there's a demo on the Apple site, d/load it and see whether the way you work in Logic suits you.

FMH

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For my main studio, I use a hardware based system (I write and produce rock/pop projects and I've used a hardware based setup for many years and have no intention of changing that, as it works fine). The Windows computer that my hard disk recorder is connected up to runs numerous applications (Live 5, Sonar, Wavelab, ACID Pro, plus countless plug-ins).

My MacBook will run a sub-system in another part of my studio, connected up to a Yamaha 01X. I will use it mainly to prepare original audio for importing into my main system. As you can tell from my applications and main set-up I am used to working with both linear and non-linear recording systems.

Does that help with the advice, or just make things worse?

Thanks for all the advice so far, from everyone!

Until your needs, skills and/or ears bump into the limits of Ableton Live, why would you let anyone tell you that you need to spend more money?

When you yourself are not satisfied anymore, that's when you should start looking for a newer solution.

Don't fix problems that aren't there yet.

Cheers! Poly

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PolycorpMedia
ProTools HD10 / 24ch Lynx Aurora / API / SSL / A-Designs / TK-Audio / SPL / Raindirk / Hearback

Quote Poly:

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Until your needs, skills and/or ears bump into the limits of Ableton Live, why would you let anyone tell you that you need to spend more money?

When you yourself are not satisfied anymore, that's when you should start looking for a newer solution.

Don't fix problems that aren't there yet.

Cheers! Poly

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Well, the thing is, that this is my first Mac. I've been a Windows user for many years, and have run Windows applications alongside my main studio set up for many years also. None of my favourite software applications (Sonar, Wavelab, ACID, etc) are supported directly by the Mac OSX software, apart from Ableton Live.

I think what my friend was trying to tell me is, that (of the 2 applications, ie Logic or Live), Logic is the system that will best approximate the sum total of ALL the applications that I've been using in Windows.

I really do appreciate that, in an ideal world, I would get the two. But the thrust of this thread is to gander opinion as to whether or not Logic is twice the program that Live is given that it is twice the price.

From what I can pick out of the disparate views given here, I would be better off getting Logic.

Ah ok.. Considering the progs you've been using before I'd start out with Logic Express and see how that fits your needs.

Then if you miss Ableton too much, buy Ableton.
Or, alternatively, if you need more of what Logic has to offer, upgrade to Logic Pro (which is exactly the price of Pro minus the price of Express, so there's no financial risk there...)

Is that an idea that might suit you?

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PolycorpMedia
ProTools HD10 / 24ch Lynx Aurora / API / SSL / A-Designs / TK-Audio / SPL / Raindirk / Hearback

Quote Poly:

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Ah ok.. Considering the progs you've been using before I'd start out with Logic Express and see how that fits your needs.

Then if you miss Ableton too much, buy Ableton.
Or, alternatively, if you need more of what Logic has to offer, upgrade to Logic Pro (which is exactly the price of Pro minus the price of Express, so there's no financial risk there...)

Is that an idea that might suit you?

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Yeah, that sounds like a good solution. Cheers!

My penniworth...

Live is not just moving chunks of other peoples audio around - I am a songwriter and use it for that, I own Logic 7, have done since version 3 and find its menus/submenus a genuine hinderance to the creative process, Logic is, a bloated programme and, if the many rumours are to be believed wil be soon undergoing a much needed overhaul.

Live in my view should not be called 'Live', its name gives the wrong impression of its potential, its design enourages 'play' (in the childish and non-pejorative sense), something which Logic in my view also used to do before it lost its way under a welter of unneccesary functions (hence its need for some spring-cleaning).

I keep Logic for the sound, however, and agree that Rewiring it to Live and bouncing is an improvement on a Live 'render' - but to buy Logic just for that wouldn't make sense, so if I was starting now I would buy Live and add high quality plugs incrementally as I could afford them.

Or wait on Logic 8 ?

good luck

j

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13" Macbook Pro 2.26GHz/2g RAM/Logic 8/Live 8/Reason 4/RME Fireface 800/Dynaudio monitors/SH101/Guitar Rig/Reverend Jetstar.

;-) Funny! A singer/songwriter I work with uses Live for that too.

I use Live sometimes for creating new ideas, beats, tracks. The workflow is magnificent and allows creativity to take the overhand without worrying too much about technical details and/or difficulties and all that.

Halfway I usually put the whole thing in my ProTools HD system to improve the sound and do the hardcore editing and automation and all that.

Poly

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PolycorpMedia
ProTools HD10 / 24ch Lynx Aurora / API / SSL / A-Designs / TK-Audio / SPL / Raindirk / Hearback

I'm currently facing the same dilemma (although I'm much more of a beginner).

Many people give the "learn both" advice, but time and money being limited, for me that's an extreme solution. And besides time and money, there's a third important consideration: it would be wonderful for productivity to be able to operate in just one environment. And now that Ableton have released Sampler, you don't have to leave the program even for sample editing.

I started learning live a couple of months ago, and I have to say it really is as fascinating as people say. But still, I can't get rid of this nagging question: is there something I'm missing if I use only Live (and not Logic, Sonar, etc.)?

This is not answered by saying, "if you're happy with Live, why not stick with it?" This is not satisfactory for the simple reason that no matter how happy I am with Live (and it's the only DAW I've used), there could be some features in Logic (for example) of which I am not aware, but which would boost some aspects of my work. So while I'm happy with Live, that may be simply because I don't know what I'm missing.

So I'd like to ask all you who say you like to play around in Live but move to some other program for "serious" work, is this perhaps only a matter of habit for you, or are there really some tangible benefits in doing your editing in Logic, for instance? Apart from the plugins, that is.

Now already, after just a couple of months, I can say with confidence that it's just not true that Live is just for messing around with premade loops. There is no truth whatsoever in that, and it really is a shame that even people like Paul White share this illusion. It's as if these people don't know that Live also has the "Arrangement View", not only the "Session View".

Sorry for the lengthy post.

I own both, I usually sketch out a tune in live the rewire the tracks to logic Pro for the heavy lifting.

Depends on your workflow, for some of my more intricate arrangements I require an event list and notation.

By the time you buy plugs to be more productive in live, it would have cost more than Logic pro.

For me I have been unable to get a polished mix with just Live's tools, when compared to more polished tools in Logic.

Live has taken on the role as my secondary DAW, because I'm not going anywhere near Steinbergs products anymore.



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G-Dub
Studio G-fx 15inch quad-core i7 Macbook Pro Logic913

Quote 10101:

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I'm currently facing the same dilemma (although I'm much more of a beginner).

Many people give the "learn both" advice, but time and money being limited, for me that's an extreme solution. And besides time and money, there's a third important consideration: it would be wonderful for productivity to be able to operate in just one environment. And now that Ableton have released Sampler, you don't have to leave the program even for sample editing.

I started learning live a couple of months ago, and I have to say it really is as fascinating as people say. But still, I can't get rid of this nagging question: is there something I'm missing if I use only Live (and not Logic, Sonar, etc.)?

This is not answered by saying, "if you're happy with Live, why not stick with it?" This is not satisfactory for the simple reason that no matter how happy I am with Live (and it's the only DAW I've used), there could be some features in Logic (for example) of which I am not aware, but which would boost some aspects of my work. So while I'm happy with Live, that may be simply because I don't know what I'm missing.

So I'd like to ask all you who say you like to play around in Live but move to some other program for "serious" work, is this perhaps only a matter of habit for you, or are there really some tangible benefits in doing your editing in Logic, for instance? Apart from the plugins, that is.

Now already, after just a couple of months, I can say with confidence that it's just not true that Live is just for messing around with premade loops. There is no truth whatsoever in that, and it really is a shame that even people like Paul White share this illusion. It's as if these people don't know that Live also has the "Arrangement View", not only the "Session View".

Sorry for the lengthy post.

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Man, don't apologise for your post! You've hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. People get so caught up in the application that they use, it becomes their pet, and they do every thing they can to push its virtues. They mean well, they really do, but they don't give you the answer you are looking for. In a small way, they insult your intelligence, especially those who take the easy "try both options" route. Christ! I never thought of that!

When we post these threads, I think we've nearly always made up our minds. What we are hoping for, usually very much in vain, is that one spark of empathy with what we are trying to get a handle on. I'd rather have an honest one-sided opinion from someone who has been a hard-line user of one particular application, who can sing its virtues with conviction, than a half-arsed bet-hedger from someone who can't make up their mind (or doesn't know their own mind). I think a lot of the newbies coming to this site do get short-changed on the "advice" they get from so-called experts.

With this particular thread I'ad already pretty much made up my mind to go with Logic and continue to use Ableton Live 5 on my Windows pc, and try to work out ways of importing audio from the one into the other. Nothing I've read so far has changed that view.

Still, I do think this forum has its pluses, if only as a sounding board for what we already know. Also, this forum has got to be one of the most civilised on the web.

Quote G-Doubleyou:

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By the time you buy plugs to be more productive in live, it would have cost more than Logic pro.

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Yes, but there are very many things you can do with Live but not with Logic; you cannot compare the prices directly. And many (maybe most) Logic users buy plug-ins anyway.

But the event list is a case in point. Mentioning features that Logic has and Live doesn't is helpful in deciding if I would be better off learning Logic in addition to Live: the next time I'm having difficulties when editing in Live, I can ask myself if what I'm doing would be easier to achieve if there was an event list. So thanks for mentioning that. (In contrast, just saying that for heavy editing you go to Logic simply begs the question of why you do so.)

Quote tomafd:

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personally I find it much harder to to do complex arrangements, especially if the music requires parts that don't necessarily start and finish bang on the bar- it can be done, but it's much, much, slower than in Logic.

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Why is this? This would make sense if Live only had the Session View, but does the problem you describe really exist in the Arrangement View as well?

I was playing around with live today and started something that I thought was pretty fun sounding! I would not have come up with the same thing using logic. The immidiacy (?) of arrangement is what is so special. I haven't been using live very seriously until recenty, but I have watched it evolve from version 1.
I have to say, a pretty cool new feature in V6 is the "stretch notes" in the midi editing window. It makes something I do in logic a million times easier! But logic has the best midi editor that exists in my opinion.