I've done a few amateur jobs recording local choirs/brass bands - where all involved where more than satisfied with the results.

It got me thinking

I am considering setting up a location recording business. It's just an idea at the moment- so i am just kind of wondering if such a thing could earn me a living or weather it would only be a one off thing. I have never advertised my services, but I'm just wondering if any SOS bods do a similar job?

Potentially the overheads are very low - Besides gear (which i already own) the only major overhead i can see is petrol and advertising.

I would be primarily interested in doing concerts/ amateur choirs etc, but would consider doing bands if appropriate.

What do you guys reckon?

As a business - probably no.

There is not enough work to go round.

Overheads - Equipment costs very high - I stopped counting at £50,000 (I took a few of my mics. out to do a lecture recently, as we were walking back to the car I realises that in these three bags these 12 mics were worth over £20,000.

You'll need insurance for the equipment and also Public Liability insurance and if you pay someone to help there are tons of regulations that you need as an employer.

It can be OK as a semi-pro as long as you have a full time job to pay the mortgage - but full time - I don't think so.

It will be interesting to hear what 0VU has to say, but with all the ex-Decca people around..............

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

I think your probably thinking I'm aiming at a higher end market than I am.

The recordings I have done so far are AMATEUR choirs / Brass bands. I have got superb results with nothing more than a moutu 828 connected to my laptop - Focusrite Octepre channel strip and Rode NT2000 stereo pair with some Rode nt5 spot mics if required. Most of that gear is second hand and in reality cost me around £1500 - £2000

I would be aiming at an ameteur market - schools, ameteur choirs, music centres - I'm not about to run off and record the BBC symphony orchestra.

Ideally i'd nead to earn about £12k a year after tax to keep my head above water.

Maybe . . .

Actually, it sounds like a great way to go: you get to go to different places everyday and meet interesting (?) people, practice your art, and then do the mixing at home.

I think it could work if the market demand is there, and your work is exemplary.

Good luck - let us know what happens.

As John says, it would be difficult.

But if I were to start a business as a studio in the UK, then it would be as a mobile. The problem is that you have to be the right person to do this and you have to do it properly. Some crap-hole opperation with boxes and cases is just not going to work. I have done this a few times - but then we are already a studio and therefore we are able to wheel out the recording system from the machine room and use the mics that we have anyway.

The one item you seem to have forgotten is a truck. Nobody pays good money for someone to tuurn up lugging cases, but a nice shiney truck with the words 'Narpin Mobile Two' written on the sides and a big F-off desk inside and rolls of multicore feeding all over the place with video links to the stage, well, that's a different thing altogether!

But then you need somewhere to park the thing that is safe and protected and you need a workshop to maintain all the bits and pieces and of course the know how to do all these things.

It is also waaaaay more fun than sitting in a studio, listening to some F-wit guitarist who thinks he's Brain May.

But, as John says, start thinking in very big numbers. Even a mosest opperation around something like a used 48-channel Aztec with Radar Classic and a nice 7.5-ton Mercedes box-truck with all the cabling, monitoring, splitter boxes (active and passive!) means finding about £100k if you shop cleverly.

A friend of miine does exactly this full-time and he spent nearly £1m setting up his opperation.

To be honest - no disrespect - but to me you lot are bonkers.

Why on earth would you spend that on a van? If a van is not needed? Why on earth would anybody lug big desks/racks of pointless gear around - just to look good? If I were to do this i wouldn't plan on buying ANYMORE GEAR than i currently have. - It does the job fine for the market i'm aiming at.

I have never met anybody who is not a 'music tech bod' who gives a flying [ ****** ] pancake what your gear is/ how big or small your set up is/ weather you turn up in a van, or on a scooter, as long as they get what they pay for! - that being a nice sounding CD.

If i turned up with a rack full of tesco mic pre's I doubt anybody woould notice... it all just looks like 'a load of knobs and flashing lights' to the layman.

Quote narpin99:

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I would be aiming at an ameteur market - schools, ameteur choirs, music centres - I'm not about to run off and record the BBC symphony orchestra.

Ideally i'd nead to earn about £12k a year after tax to keep my head above water.

---

Well - thats a little like the old band attitude of "hey i dont wanna be famous, people just gotta hear my nusic. If i could earn enough to get by id be happy".

Ive been running a business for 15 years (this is actually my third). You have to set high ambitions - you never reach the goals you DO set. Start thinking in terms of how you could make it work and earn 50K a year and then you may, may just , earn the 12 you're looking for. Thing is when your talking about earning 12k you'll put the work in to earn that many jobs - which a say £100 margin per £200 quid recording gig means a 120 paying gigs a year. Thats quit a diary to keep full.

Now on the other hand if you try and GO for the high flying recording concerts by good quality orchestra (all amateur) then you could do it. I have done in the past. HOWEVER - it takes good gear, good skill and a great deal of hard work and good business sense. Its not impossible - its just that it takes a lot!

Good luck but be wary. Dont just jump in!

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Your equipment list is very amateur and in no way could you run a business like that.

You need to start small and semi-pro and build up a client list until you HAVE to go full-time.

That's the only way.

Adverts don't work - you just have to work at it until people demand your services so much that you have to do it as your full time job.

The truck is not important - an estate and flight cases is OK as long as you have the right equipment to do the job properly and look and act professional.

But DON'T jump in.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

i think there are good points on both sides as far as getting the 100,000 squid truck etc as well as doing the lugging a box around approach...

i think if you take a look at what your market is today that that is where you start with an eye on what it could be in a year from now etc etc...

you also have the option of renting gear for bigger jobs or when the "prestige" brands need to be flashed around etc...

another thing to think about is that lots of bands and church choirs etc nowdays are getting the laptop and related gear and just doing it themselves... so you will have that to compete with too...

good luck...

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NoteToSelfDontDie.com / my new drum kit!!!!111!1

So what if my equipment list is 'amateur' - that is open to interpretation - What is considered amateur these days, would have cost thosands back in the day.

You say I can't run a business that way... But why not?
Why do i need a all singing all dancing 48 channel desk when in reality I'd be using 4 channels? You say i couldn't do it...but you don't say why? I'm not being defensive here i'm just looking for reasons

I just don't get this gear snobbery thing- and in my eyes that is a complete advantage as most amateur peeps don't care either. As i said everyone who I have worked for so far have been very satisfied.

Hi there I thought I would put my perspective on this, I am a full time sound engineer with a production company, I am doing what you propose in my spare time for free.

I have been engineering for 8 years pro, 5 years before that
on my own music and I still work for free on what I want to do.

You almost have to be a nutter to be in this game, ask yourself "am I a nutter" and totally obsessed to the point where my life is sound engineering.

Enthusiasm is good, I don't want to squash that but you almost need an endless amount, the pay off is personal satisfaction not always / necessarily money.

I help myself off to sleep at night thinking of mic positions.

Sound engineering for business is not for normal people.

Best of luck anyway.

If people already know your name and are happy with your services then I would say you should give it a go.

Do you need a truck? Well it is nice to be able to have everything all set up in a known environment for monitoring leaving jus the mics and multicore to be set up when you get to the gig but you can often find a room away from the performance area to set up for monitoring so this isn't quite so important.

As far as amateur groups having their own gear goes - well they may have thought that it was a good idea to buy it at the time but I'm sure many would be much happier for someone to come along and record them rather than have to worry about it for themselves. Put it like this - I have a setup that could be used for mobile recording but if I'm playing a gig I no longer want the hassle of looking after the recording gear too. I used to try to do both many years ago and ended up just getting really stressed about everything.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

The key issue is what will you charge.... or what will the market pay.

The reality, I fear, is that there are a lot of old farts like me around who have kit which is in reality less than fully employed, so we tend to bite people's hands off when they offer us a job, and headline rates that we might advertise on our websites or whatever go out of the window. There are too many people chasing too few gigs at the moment: that's the market reality.

So if someone asks me if I can turn up at a concert with a G5, a rack of preamps and converters and a dozen Neumann mics, the day after tomorrow, and bring it back to my studio for mixing, I might say yes. And I'd be lucky to get a couple of hundred pounds for my efforts.

You're going to have to undercut that, significantly. To get £1,000 a month I reckon you're going to have to find 10-15 gigs a month. That's a lot of long hours and late nights for not much pay.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

You don't need a truck and you don't need a massive desk.

You *do* need good pro gear if you are going to charge for your services and you need to know what you are doing.

To be honest - if you are asking the question, then the answer is a definite NO!

If you are working so much in your spare time that you have to turn people away - then the answer is yes.

It's as easy as that.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote:

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You say I can't run a business that way... But why not?

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I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment and without wishing to sound really nasty and negative or getting into huge lists of 'why not'; however good it may look now, the answer comes down to one simple thing - your business model as presented is hopelessly simplistic, seriously flawed and simply doesn't stack up in the real world. It fails to take account of most of the (ever increasing!) costs of running a business (as distinct from a hobby), appears to be based upon nothing more than the premise that you've had some good comments on a limited number of recordings, you appear not to have any concrete figures to back up your very vague market 'analysis' and you lack the experience or equipment to compete effectively in what is a highly competitive and shrinking professional market.

The biggest things you seem to be missing (aside from the running costs) are in terms of how you're going to get an income. In the market you describe, your biggest competition will be from people exactly like you are now - doing recordings - often good ones - for the fun/love/enjoyment and or a tiny 'fee' to cover their costs (or just for free!). It's very hard to compete against that - however good you are.

Sorry to be a killjoy but a lot of what you need to think about or start researching has been said by other people above. You must - for your own good - do the numbers on this properly or you'll come very unstuck and I don't think anyone wishes that on you.

I've been doing this for the last 25 years or so, semi/fully professionally for about the last 20, and even with a fair track record and degree of experience, many years worth of established client base, and a shedload (actually more than one shedload ) of equipment (JW is right btw - yours is not really professional level gear - and that's not snobbery/interpretation, just how it is), if it weren't for the fact that I have salable skills in other areas, and most importantly, a very hard working, well paid and extremely tolerant wife, I'd've gone bust, or been struggling, at or barely above subsistence level for a few years now, and be looking at a not improving future market.

I've deliberately painted a very bleak picture of what can be a wonderful job - if you still want to go ahead and jump in then I'd happily help if I can but in all seriousness, it's not a sane idea and is becoming less sane by the month. My honest advice (despite this being one of the things which is making this business ever harder for me to make a living in!) would be to get a half decent, reasonably paid job that gives you a regular income to pay your bills and some time off, and continue recording as a hobby; gain experience; build a reputation; do a heap of research (both on your specific area of recording interest and on business economics in general), make a few bob on the side to fund your gear habit, and enjoy it. JW is right that the time to go professional is when you have so much work that you no longer can cover it in your spare time and are earning enough from it to take the inevitable hit in your wallet.

It seems a very interesting prospect actually.

The way I see it is that, to get a good quality location recording of maybe a school production or a church event or something is only going to take you a pair of C414s to do a good stereo recording, a couple of ambient mics and maybe a few spots. A laptop (possibly you already have one) and an audio interface, jobs a good 'un.

I think you have to start out small after identifying the market. Then start to build up big. You can't do it full time until you have a reputation anyway.

In respect to a van and a massive desk, nothing looks more professional to a primary school or church recital than a nice glowing apple laptop.

What I would say is that, no matter what equiptment you're using or how good a job you're doing, what will really count is your people skills. Working in sa situation where you have to impress and keep happy large groups of people will either make or break your business.

I like the idea though. You should give it a go if only part time! Research it fully first though.

SJ.

Edited by simonmitchell (06/04/07 05:54 PM)

You would do well do listen to the professionals advice, mine included, and especially Steve, OVU and JW. Its not about squishing desires, its about you not getting into

a) debt
b) trouble when your recording isnt accepted by the customer!

Its not a BAD idea. Its just that its not a new idea and there are many doing it. Go ahead if you think you can. But you came asking for advice.

I run a company that turns over (depending on year) between half and just under 1 million a year. About 10 grand of that comes from providing a live recording service for orchestral work - usually for college based orchs or occasionally Liverpool Phil and such like. I really only do it because its a good way to get other gigs - you meet people who are in other projects and hire you for that. Now, I have some pretty good gear (nowhere near as much as i hear OVU has !!), a lot of experience and a good client base. Build it from the ground up or you'll end up in tears! Your gear, by the way, IS amateur, even by the standards of twenty years ago (mostly because there wasnt this level of gear back then - it was either really poop or Pro!!) although as you say - quality enough for amateur punters

goodluck..


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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Edited by narcoman (06/04/07 06:12 PM)

I would suggest: If you enjoy it... keep it as a hobby.

There's nothing which takes away the enjoyment of something like doing it for money. Having recently discovered the joys of music recording I thought about earning a few quid with it... for all of thirty seconds. Then I dismissed the idea and revell in the term "enthusiast".
Recently, some mates of mine found out about my new hobby and, as a result I was asked to record a live band and I made a bit of a cock-up. The result was that the band was a bit miffed and my promised bottle of Balvenie failed to materialise. If I'd been doing it for money, it would have cost me a fortune in a re-shoot (or whatever the audio equivelant is) and my reputation would have gone down the pan.

Just my opinion, Feel free to ignore it and listen to someone who knows what they're talking about.

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"Nice microphone... Now get it out of shot!"

Right ...lots to think about then...very good advice.

I never said i had a final business model or anything like that. Just an idea at the moment. Of course as things change and you work out the details of things and as real life figures come into play, things do change.

Tiss quite hard to think of a situation where i could do this alongside my current job as a teacher as that is quite a demanding job in itself! - but yes i can see how doing it semi-pro might be a good idea.

Thanks guys.

Quote narcoman:

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quality enough for amateur punters

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I could take issue with that...for the record all British Brass Bands are amateur by definition (although Grimethorpe are busy enough not to be after that bloody film)...that includes Bands such as Black Dyke, Grimey, Brighouse (of Floral Dance infamy for anyone that old ) etc

The standard of musicianship is as high in Bands like that as it is in the leading orchestras of the World (and in some cases of named artistes, a damn site better) - so fobbing them off with a statement like that is insulting, frankly.


Back to the original question, Brass Bands are mainly what I do, with the occasional choir and other various other ensembles along the way. I've invested a bucketload of cash into gear - lately much of it on the advice of people like 0VU, Hugh and John, and in this kind of market it'll be a long time before I ever start getting back into the black. Tagetting so-called amateur groups is all well and good, but the level of service and quality of product that they get should be the best they can get withing the budget constraints they set (and they can be severe) - my gear list includes the Neumanns and Audients of this world and it has its advantages.

Incidentally, don't forget that to be worth your salt you've got to have the production skills associated with the groups you're going to work for or pay for third parties to do it for you....if you want to be successful pointing a pair of 414s at something and pressing go isn't going to cut it I'm afraid.

Oh, then there's things like the insurance bills (gear, PLI, if you have production staff ELI)....so you've not included all your overheads in your thinking.

Oh, and I'm afraid I disagree wrt the truck as well (although 0VU will tell you I'd like one anyway )....in the venues you'd be likely to be working in and your selected clientele walk in boxes probably are more ergonomic and would work better.

The point about the risk of a quality failure is important.

For some people (most, in a sense) the fact that they are asking for a recording at all is because, to them, it's a special event. Unlike in a studio, where you can say "oops, let's go again", you will generally get one shot at it a live event.

You screw up, they start asking for compensation. Possibly big-time.

Are you prepared for that eventuality? (As far as I am aware it's an uninsurable risk).

Most guys on the live circuit are doing (at least) two simultaneous recordings to different systems to cover this risk.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (06/04/07 10:23 PM)

Quote Steve Hill:

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Most guys on the live circuit are doing (at least) two simultaneous recordings to different systems to cover this risk.

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Yep - I generally have 2 straight to stereo feeds with a multitrack backup....and I'll be adding an isolated multitrack backup up to that fairly shortly....and that's on location 'studio' jobs.

I mainly record for myself and do a few location jobs for people I like who are generally very good amateurs. Don't want to be totally negative so remember that there are really good positive sides to doing this as a part time serious HOBBY.
I don't have to work with people I don't like, situations that I don't want to be in etc etc.
I work 25 to 30 hours a week doing an ordinary job to pay the gas bill.
So look at the plus side of being a serious amateur recordists/musician. For years I didn't really want that - now its great, and the £50 s I make goes into the gear kitty with my mastercard.

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Matt
www.krcollective.org

I'd also think you'd need backups of the backups - or at least a spare (three identically equipped laptops, whatever). Spare mics too... and cables... transport as well - as Steve points out, you will typically be recording a one-off special event and can't exactly cancel at the last minute coz your car won't start... or you turn up and one of your mics has gone down. So although you're saying you're not planning on buying more gear, you'd have to.

And if you're doing it full time, you'll no doubt be self-employed and won't be able to claim benefit. However, you will be bothered for tax - typically when you might not have the money set aside or have maybe HAD to dib into it for a car repair or whatever coz you had no gigs for a month - and you can expect more intrusion in that area than you're used to as a PAYE teacher (receipts and claims questioned, etc.).

And if schools are your primary target market, you'll know, as a teacher, that there will 6 weeks or so in summer when your target market is on holiday not to mention other 'lean periods' and 'seasonal unemployment' you'll experience when you will have absolutely no income.

Getting 10 or more paying gigs EVERY month seems over-optimistic (and if my own well-laid plans in the past are anything to go by, you will NOT meet your business projections unless you are very lucky). I live in a fairly major city with a large and thriving school musical community (school orchestras, brass bands, choirs, youth orchestras, jazz bands and so on) and I cannot imagine that I could guarantee anywhere near 10 gigs a month without working further afield and with that in mind, I would have no idea how I would promote my services to a school in - say - Sheffield or Swansea, wherever... and I am not sure that filling my car up with £50's worth (or more) of petrol to earn £100 would be economically viable (and if an overnight stay is required, it would cost YOU to do the job!) ... unless you factor that into the cost which then makes your service less attractive especially when - let's face it - there'll be some parent who will video the event for nothing... or the school will have their own fairly decent camera for the job!!!

You obviously enjoy doing this and have gear that is suitable to produce good results that your (few) 'clients' (so far) have been pleased with but that does not constitute the fairly major career change you seem to have in mind. I don't know what the teaching profession is like - whether you can leave it and then come back easily - but, assuming you have some dosh behind you to support you, you could give it a go if you are safe in the knowledge you can return to teaching easily but otherwise, frankly, it sounds very risky to me and I think you would be better off *enjoying* it as a spare-time activity (and a source of a bit of spare cash) rather than wondering where the hell the next gig - if any - is coming from as the bills mount up.

Just my thoughts on the matter as someone prone to hare-brained ideas for income that have invariably failed!


Steve

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote narpin99:

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So what if my equipment list is 'amateur' - that is open to interpretation - What is considered amateur these days, would have cost thosands back in the day.

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I see where you're coming from, and I don't mean to belittle your aspirations. But the gear you listed is quite certainly, 'amateur' from any true professional's point of view. it might impress the natives, and it might get the job done, but it ain't fully professional gear.

Quote:

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Why do i need a all singing all dancing 48 channel desk when in reality I'd be using 4 channels?

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You don't ned a big desk, or a truck -- you're quite right. I think Andy was just voicing the way he would approach going mobile. There aer a lot of jobs that you can do as a carry in with flightcased gear fromthe back of an Estate car. John Willett and I do it all the time, as do hundreds of other people all over the country.

...and there is your first problem. Everyone and their dog now has recording equipment of some sort, and a lot of them like to record bands. So you are going to have competition. Obviously the quality of your recordings will sway opinions on whether to employ you or notm, but so too will the nature of your equipment and how professional your approach is.

Quote:

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You say i couldn't do it...but you don't say why? I'm not being defensive here i'm just looking for reasons

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I'm sure you could do it with the right approach, but you need to be very realistic. I know for a fact that I could not support a lifestyle purely on location recording. There isn't enough work, it doesn't pay enough money, and the overheads are very high.

You say you only need to make 12k after tax a year. So realistically you need to generate 15k of income just to meet your own salary requirements. Then you need public liability and equipment insurance, so let's add a grand for that. Then you need to budget for replacement gear -- replacing worn out stuff, adding to your facilities, maintenance, software upgrades and so on. That's probably another grand a year as a minimum, even if you buy second hand.

Very quickly you'll find you need the best part of a 20K turnover to run the business effectively. That means you have to bring in over 1.5k a month, every month. I don't know what rates you think you can charge, but can you really guarantee one or two jobs every week? Fifty weeks a year? I reckon to do that you are talking about servicing a very large area, not a single town... and that means you are facing a lot of local competition again.

Quote:

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I just don't get this gear snobbery thing

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It's not gear snobbery. The people who have commented above are by and large professionals, working in professional environments with professional gear, doing professional jobs. And they have all been doing it a long time. So while you may take a different view, I wouldn't dismiss their comments, observations and concerns quite so quickly. They have all been there and done that, and know what it takes to succeed.

Quote:

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As i said everyone who I have worked for so far have been very satisfied.

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That's great. And I wish you all the luck. But make sure you think it through very carefully before burning any bridges as far as earning a living are concerned.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote simonmitchell:

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The way I see it is that, to get a good quality location recording of maybe a school production or a church event or something is only going to take you a pair of C414s to do a good stereo recording, a couple of ambient mics and maybe a few spots. A laptop (possibly you already have one) and an audio interface, jobs a good 'un.

---

Er... but it's not. If you are charging for your services then you are deemed to be professional, and that means having to comply with all manner of legislation and laws. And you can't skimp on this stuff because if it all goes horribly wrong one day -- and it will -- you'll end up in court, being fined seriously large amounts of money, possibly with imprisonment in extreme cases, and with civil actions for compensation to follow.

So, all the gear will have to be properly PAT tested and certificated every year. Unless you are suitably qualified yourself, that's going to cost money. Not a lot, in all probability, but it's something else to add to the overheads.

Recording in any public space means you must have public liability insurance. If someone trips over a mic stand and breaks their toe, you get sued for compensation, loss of earnings, distress and all the rest that the lawyers can lob at you. Insurance is expensive at the best of times. If you can show that you are well trained in health and safety, have a sound track record, and are professional you may be able to negotiate a reasonable discount. If you are a keen amateur they are likely to weight things in their favour just in case, and that means even more expense for you. Likewise with equipment insurance, and with car insurance, since you will now be using your car for business and it will often have expensive equipment in the back!

As for the actual recordings, its a lot more than a bunch of cheap mics, an interface and a laptop. You need sturdy, safe mic stands, lots and lots of cables, monitoring, talkback, and more.

What if you turn up at a gig and the laptop hard drive decides to die on you, or the phantom power supply inthe interface blows up? What is your backup recorder? What are you going to do when you can't get the gear to work and there is a room full of angry people expecting to make a recording? one major failure like that could scupper a promising career straight away, so you need a back up plan, and that means more gear.

In a lot of cases, you simply can't place mic stands where you want to because of health and safety -- especially at public performances, so how will you deal with that? You could fly catenary wires if you have them, but that means more expense in kit and there are yet more rules and regulations about flying things above peoples heads.

And that's just a few issues off the top of my head on a Saturday morning. There is a whole lot more to think about and prepare for. It can be done, of course, but they all weight against making it a profitable business -- or even a workable business.

This kind of stuff is great fun to do as a hobby, and as a hobby a lot of the rules and regulations are relaxed, but as a business it is very, very difficult. I am just a little worried that some people here are looking at this in a much too simplistic fashion.

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote narpin99:

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Tiss quite hard to think of a situation where i could do this alongside my current job as a teacher as that is quite a demanding job in itself! - but yes i can see how doing it semi-pro might be a good idea.

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That's what those luxurious long Christmas, Easter and summer holidays are for, surely ?

hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote narpin99:

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Right ...lots to think about then...very good advice.

Tiss quite hard to think of a situation where i could do this alongside my current job as a teacher as that is quite a demanding job in itself! - but yes i can see how doing it semi-pro might be a good idea.

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You've actually now opened up another avenue that you may not have considered. As a teacher, you appear to have a skill that is lacking in most music departments - knowledge of Music Technology. Edexcel, as you know, is changing the syllabus for the 2008 intake - so you may be very well poised to major on a growing and popular subject.

I'd humbly suggest that you look to capitalise on that particuar situation, which, hopefully, will give you the opportunity to hone your skills further, and get you into situations where networking will build your client list, uch that the very good advice you've already been given takes efect - ie. you have such a large client list that you can no longer service it part-time and have to go pro.

And as for the van - the Mobile truck - WHile it may not be an absolute necessity, it's a very, very nice thing to be able to offer. However, you'd need to spend a lot of time in Excel producing the cashflow forecast to be able to justify it. Even so, it's not an absolute necessity - we recorded the sound for Hawkkwind's forthcoming live DVD without a truck, and we've also recorded their live album without a truck - it can be done.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote Aural Reject:

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Quote narcoman:

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quality enough for amateur punters

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I could take issue with that...
- so fobbing them off with a statement like that is insulting, frankly.

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Dont be stupid. You know darn well what i meant.

Im a bit sick of people round here jumping to conclusions. I didnt say anything about standards of playing. The original poster had said that "his mates and customers so far" had liked it. Im sure the standard was fine to listen too, and his (amateur) customers had enjoyed it. Thats fine. No problem. Amateur means its not your source of income. Simple. Nothing else was implied or intended - and you're experienced enough to know that. So stop it with the inflamatory behaviour.

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Edited by narcoman (07/04/07 10:21 AM)

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Right ...lots to think about then...very good advice.

Tiss quite hard to think of a situation where i could do this alongside my current job as a teacher as that is quite a demanding job in itself! - but yes i can see how doing it semi-pro might be a good idea.

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You've actually now opened up another avenue that you may not have considered. As a teacher, you appear to have a skill that is lacking in most music departments - knowledge of Music Technology. Edexcel, as you know, is changing the syllabus for the 2008 intake - so you may be very well poised to major on a growing and popular subject.

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Here Here. Well said.

I had better do some explaining -

I own a recording studio and I studied economics waaaay back when at the LSE. I spent most of my life (when I was not playing at soldiers) either in recording studios or around them, or in later years working in sound for television, usually in OB work. Later on I began to write about audio and then developed a media consultancy, combined with a trade news agency.

Now I just play at being a studio owner, though I get drawn into the economics side over and over again - usually as a favour to someone who needs to have a feasibility study done for some new venture.

So that's me. Now let's look at you and your market -

A mobile is the same as every other type of studio and requires the same scale of investment. The difference is that you do not need a building, but for that you need other things.

You spoke of doing this as a full time occupation. To do that, you have to earn at least (according to your own statements) £12k net a year. That is by any yardstick, very very little in a Western society. By hey ho and never mind, we’ll work with that figure. That means you have to turn over about (ballpark figures only here!) £24k p.a. That would mean ten gigs a month at £200 or one gig a month at £2,000.

Now we have to look at the gigs - at £200 there are very few gigs and the few that are available are snapped up by Tom, Dick, Harry and their mothers-in-law. The trouble with demo studios (investment of between £20k and £40k) is every other demo studio. There are demo studios, mobile and immobile, in every part of the World. From Swaziland to Scunthorpe, from Mongolia to Maidstone, there are about ten times as many demo studios as the market can handle.

Entering a market that is ten times over-subscribed is to doom yourself to failure.

Sorry, but that’s the way it is!

If we go to the mid-sized market, i.e. facilities with an investment of £200k to £500k, things thin out alarmingly and there are large parts of Europe that have no facilities in that category whatsoever.

The same is even more true for mobiles. There are literally thousands of guys with ProTools HD3 rigs in flightcases all over the World, who are only too happy to spring to action. Most freelance engineers (of which there is really no imminent shortage!!!) have their own flightcased PT-HD3 rigs or similar.

So why do I recommend a proper truck with all the bells and whistles? Well, because almost none of these ‘Have-ProTools-will-Travel’ people can even record a rock band or sync with a video rig. Almost none of them has a proper backup system. There is a real shortage of good, keenly priced mobile recording facilities in the UK in the provinces. In fact, there is a complete shortage of mobile anything right across Europe, except for S.E. UK, Germany and France. For that reason, all the mobile facilities for the last Eurovision Song Contest in Athens and all the personnel had to come all the way from Germany.

Everywhere I go, I hear people within the industry moaning about how hard it is for studios to get work. But for the ‘adult’ mobile market there is in reality a shortage of facilities as there are only four or five mobiles in the whole of Europe capable of fulfilling even the more modest of technical riders for a medium sized rock concert.

You see, at the bottom of the market (where there is a ten-to-one over-supply and sod-all money!!!) nobody really knows or cares what system you record with. But the moment you go to something a little more ambitious, they tell you which pieces of kit are acceptable and which are not acceptable. It is all a question of scale. When you are part of a team recording Jonny Rock-Star for his latest hi-def video DVD with 5.1 sound, the total cost of the entire OB can easily be around £50,000 or more. When a major sporting event in HDTV can run to over £100,000, the few thousand that the audio truck earns is peanuts.

As for your remarks (and we get to hear them often around here) about gear sobbism, it ain’t me that will tell you what you can and cannot use, but the market. There is no market at the bottom, but there is a market further ‘up’ (wherever that is!)

I shall not go into a long diatribe about what systems and brands you can and cannot use for a larger mobile recording, but I can assure you that ANYTHING that smells of Windows or Mac is 100% not on that list.

I would be only too happy to help anybody who has a GENUINE desire to set up a mobile recording facility, but then they have to approach the task with realism.

As Hugh said, there might be a path along which you could go, that would allow you to work towards a full-time mobile, but then you would have to plan that path with meticulous precision, technically and financially.

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quality enough for amateur punters

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I could take issue with that...
- so fobbing them off with a statement like that is insulting, frankly.

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Dont be stupid. You know darn well what i meant.

Im a bit sick of people round here jumping to conclusions. I didnt say anything about standards of playing. The original poster had said that "his mates and customers so far" had liked it. Im sure the standard was fine to listen too, and his (amateur) customers had enjoyed it. Thats fine. No problem. Amateur means its not your source of income. Simple. Nothing else was implied or intended - and you're experienced enough to know that. So stop it with the inflamatory behaviour.

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Sorry, bad day at the office

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The way I see it is that, to get a good quality location recording of maybe a school production or a church event or something is only going to take you a pair of C414s to do a good stereo recording, a couple of ambient mics and maybe a few spots. A laptop (possibly you already have one) and an audio interface, jobs a good 'un.

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Er... but it's not. If you are charging for your services then you are deemed to be professional, and that means having to comply with all manner of legislation and laws. And you can't skimp on this stuff because if it all goes horribly wrong one day -- and it will -- you'll end up in court, being fined seriously large amounts of money, possibly with imprisonment in extreme cases, and with civil actions for compensation etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...
hugh

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I was meaning more from the quality of micropohones. He doesn't need 40 Neuman Mics to do a small recording, nor a massive desk. If laptops put you off, 2 edirol portable HD recorders aren't much, backups and everything.

I wasn't referring to the buisness side of it, just the recording side.

SJ.

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simonmitchell:
I was meaning more from the quality of micropohones. He doesn't need 40 Neuman Mics to do a small recording, nor a massive desk. If laptops put you off, 2 edirol portable HD recorders aren't much, backups and everything.

I wasn't referring to the buisness side of it, just the recording side.

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It always amazes/amuses me how people underestimate the work and investment involved in properly doing a location recording.

You're right, for a church choir or small ensemble gig, you don't need 40 Neumanns or a massive desk - the latter is likely to be a liability - but you do need enough good gear to cover every eventuality. Location jobs, no matter how well planned, have a habit of sneaking in little surprises and you need to be able to cover them.

To quote Hugh:

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Hugh Robjohns:
As for the actual recordings, its a lot more than a bunch of cheap mics, an interface and a laptop. You need sturdy, safe mic stands, lots and lots of cables, monitoring, talkback, and more.

What if you turn up at a gig and the laptop hard drive decides to die on you, or the phantom power supply inthe interface blows up? What is your backup recorder? What are you going to do when you can't get the gear to work and there is a room full of angry people expecting to make a recording? one major failure like that could scupper a promising career straight away, so you need a back up plan, and that means more gear.

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If you're going to do location recording in any kind of serious way - even as a hobby - you need the right gear, plenty of it, a back up plan and, preferably, a back up back up plan. That is if you don't want to risk letting down clients or getting a reputation for being unprepared/incompetent.

As an example, a regular choral CD recording job I do in a chapel uses 3 mics, recording straight to stereo. By the time all the recording gear, talkback, CCTV, power cabling and distribution, supplementary lighting, heating and little essentials like the kettle, and enough backups to cover any equipment failure are added in, the gear needs a van (SWB Transit/Transit Connect Hi Top) to transport it as it won't fit into even a largeish (Volvo V70) estate car and is really too heavy for a car. That's 3 mics to stereo; expand this to a larger ensemble like an orchestra or brass band, or bring in multitrack recording and you get the idea of what's involved. Ok, a live recording where you're just bringing the recording gear is a lot less gear intensive and a fair size rig will go into an estate car but done properly it's still not really a laptop bag, stand and cable gig.

Location recording isn't like recording in a nice safe, warm studio where everything is to hand, and things don't get shaken/knocked about between jobs. It's doing it the hard way. It puts far more strain on your gear, and demands a greater degree of organisation, backup, and, arguably, technical knowledge - not just in using the gear but also in how it works and, if necessary, how to keep it going. And not only your own gear - you need to be able to cope with the kind of problems you come up against in some venues - faulty wiring, inadequate heating/lighting, strange 'inexplicable' faults tripping fuses, even just surveying a venue properly for a recording. If you undertake to check out a venue and something you missed about the it or it's environment causes problems on the sessions/live recording, you won't be popular and could even end up out of pocket as a result.

Location gear needs to be properly reliable - if you can service/carry out running repairs yourself so much the better - and when on location you need to be fully self sufficient - there's no nipping to the cupboard for a replacement mic or grabbing an extra/different stand from the store. If you don't bring it wih you, the chances are slim that you'll be able to get it in an emergency.

Equipment reliability aside, accidents can happen; things get dropped/knocked over/have stuff spilled into them, and it can happen any time. It's bad enough if you rig one of your two good mics and it doesn't work - ok you have a backup pair but they're different - hopefully not a disaster and you use them. Then, halfway through the session, someone knocks over your stand and kills a mic. Now what do you do - you've got half a CD worth of sessions in the can and you've lost your only pickup. You can't get a replacement in time and in any case, it quite possibly wouldn't match, and you're stuffed. The sessions can't continue the client can't believe that you don't even have a spare mic and your name is mud. (A bit of a worst case scenario but it could happen and you need to be ready for it.)

On a simpler level, how about you turn up for a job 50 miles from home, set up your mics, run cables back to the 'control room' and discover that the only power point in the room isn't working and the next nearest power point in the building is 30 metres away and you don't have a mains extension long enough. (Or perhaps you surveyed the venue and found the power point in the control room but didn't test it and you didn't bother even to find out where the other sockets were or where the fuse box is.) The artists arrive in 30 minutes and you've no power or time to get a replacement cable. Or you arrive at the venue to find that the artists have decided that for some reason their live concert layout is going to be completely different from the one you discussed with them and a pair of mics will no longer cover it properly. You'd better have a few options open or you end up with a badly compromised recording.

The list of things which can go wrong is pretty substantial. It ranges from minor things which just irritate or make you look/feel a bit daft through to things which scupper sessions, lose you a live recording or even cause damage/hurt people - you need to be ahead of or capable of recovering from as many of these things as humanly possible. A couple of mics, an interface and a laptop (or even a couple of Edirol recorders) and a lot of enthusiasm is unlikely to be enough.

The biggest problem is that bad news travels much faster than good news and even one cockup is enough to undo/shake many gigs worth of good results - especially when you're just starting out or beginning to pick up a good reputation. If you've got years of track record, you'll get away with a bit more but the chances are that with years of experience you won't put yourself in the position of having to get away with as much!

Having said all that, location work is far and away my favourite kind of recording; I find it more challenging, interesting, varied and rewarding than more or less any studio work.

I've said it a couple of times on the forum:
an option possibly worth investigating is to go abroad,
eg eastern european, mediterranean, morocco, algeria
and record the Many local and native musicians found in villages, small towns.

Can also film your journey and later make this into some kind of tourist rough guide
also take photos, write a journal to later make into a book.
I havent seen too many travel books / videos that have a wandering recording minstrel slant.

Could be a fantastic way to see different cultures, travel,
and ofcourse produce 3 different types of media of your experiences.
And the outlay on equipment needn't be huge.

Slightly different I think from what was originally talked about, but...

The band I'm in paid £80 for a recording of one of our gigs. Guy turned up with a laptop and firewire interface for 8 channels, took a line out of the mixer/patchbay for each channel, then 2 weeks later we received a mixed 30 min CD of our entire set, and it sounded great.

A few gigs later we were offered the chance to record again, but declined (it was our new bands 1st gig and we thought it could be a bit ropey!). On the night the sound engineer turned up as he was recording the headline band. He approached us and offered to do it for £40 rather than the usual £80 as he was there with all his equipment set up anyway. Obviously we were asked not to mention it to the headline band. Again we received a great recording!

Point I'm trying to make is that if you 'get in' with a few promoters and/or venues you can offer to record gigs for bands. The details of the particular sound guy were given out via email when we agreed to do the gig, so i'm guessing the promoter may be taking his %10%, but potentially you could make say £320 recording a for 4 band night... or at least £80... and obviously once you knew the acoustics of the room and the equipment etc a standard, half decent quick mix would take too long.

I actually prefer a couple of the live versions of our tunes to the originals simply because of the energy and the audience response.

Don't expect to retire, but it could certainly supplement an income if you have the equipment, and im pretty sure you wouldn't need public liabilty insurance etc (just have your gear covered... esp for theft!)

3 bands a week = £240... which (before tax) would give around that £12k figure.

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and im pretty sure you wouldn't need public liabilty insurance etc

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Er....no. If you're working anywhere near the public (and that includes the Band!) you need PLI.

Oh, and what happens if your gear sets on fire and burns the building down?

chances are the venues wiring would cause that, and they'd have their own cover, but I accept your point.

Out of interest, and a little off topic, I wonder how many sound engineers at small live venues have PLI or would they be covered by the venues (if it was the venues equipment?)

AFAIK more and more places are insisting on individual levels of cover.

Just to bear reference again to the original post (so back to the choirs / brass bands etc) and PLI, you'll be carrying in gear to all sorts of places that are owned by disparate groups or individuals. Any damage or injury caused by anything that you own or do or caused by an individual you are supervising should be insured against by your own PLI. Many places in which the OP is likely to end up working will want to see up front certification as proof of, e.g., PAT testing and PLI - in some instances the level of PLI cover will be determined by the venues (Local Authorities tend to require a minimum of £5mil cover).

For the record, the PLI doesn't just cover the equipment it covers your actions (so if you drop a sign on someone's head etc etc).

My favourite story of the unexpected... a big recording of orchestra and choir plus solo bass, tenor, alto and soprano in a big church. We spent the afternoon rehearsing and the soloists ended up stood behind the conductor's back, facing down the aisle, where I placed a good tube mic as a spot mic just to be able to boost their parts a touch later on.

We come back, the concert starts, and the soloists troop on to great applause, walk straight past their rehearsal position, and stand 15 feet to the left of their spot mic, in front of the violins.

And it's an hour to the interval which will be my first opportunity to do anything about it....

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Dynamite with a laser beam...