just wondering, does this actually effect the sound qualtiy in anyway? im about to buy a load of equipment and i need a patchbay. i can get a behringer 2nd hand for £15 (off the same dealer i actually sold my old behringer patchbay to for a measly £5 !!) but i just want to make sure it wont have a negative effect on the sound.

thanks

I have had two of them for a couple of years, and never had any problems with them...

Someone on this thread claimed that putting anything through his behringer patchbay, did nasty things to the clarity of sounds and something about the top end going.

Being Behringer (all about the budget). This doesn't surprise me.

It's compulsary in every forum to have someone trash Behringer when a question about their stuff comes up. I have a Behringer patch bay, and a Neutrik one. The Behringer one is easier to configure and they sound the same.

Quote Bays:

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It's compulsary in every forum to have someone trash Behringer when a question about their stuff comes up. I have a Behringer patch bay, and a Neutrik one. The Behringer one is easier to configure and they sound the same.

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I can't see ANY reason why they would sound inferior to another similar patchbay. I used to have the Behringer ones and now have the Neutrik ones. The Neutrik are a bloody PITA to configure, having to take them apart and flip bits around to get how you want them. The Behringer ones have switches... Awww, bliss... Perfect. I've NO idea why more expensive competitors DON'T.

P

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Buy one!!? You can have mine if you want - I don't use patchbays any more and it would help with my 'de-clutter' strategy!

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

I've used a bunch of Behringer PX3000 balanced jack patchbays over the years. I've always found them to be totally reliable, and the three-way switchable configuration for each pair of sockets is incredibly useful.

They work but so do Neutrik at not much difference in price.

The Neutrik, however, is likely to work for longer.

At the prices we are talking about, that may not be a major issue.

If you really want reliability, get a B-gauge bay. But it'll cost you, and "configuring" is done with a soldering iron! (Much more reliable than switches!).

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Yes, simple solution, don't buy it, it does "do something" to the top end, like most Behringer gear.
I cant stress this enough, don't waste your money. Some Behringer stuff is OK, but these aren't.

Take care,

Tony.

Quote fruitylooper:

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i can get a behringer 2nd hand for £15 (off the same dealer i actually sold my old behringer patchbay to for a measly £5 !!)

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I don't get it... you used to own one, have you lost your memory?

I bought a berhinger PX2000 the other year to get a cheap enclosure for my monitor controller DIY project. Fact is, that the A-gauge sockets are pretty poor quality - cheap, fragile and nasty plastic. The metal bits in the connectors tarnish pretty quickly, too. Switches aren't very durable either and will probably fail after a few hundred switch cycles. The quality of the soldering work is questionable at best, too. Oh, and it's unbalanced too - you wouldn't want that - although the connectors on mine are actually TRS and could be used for balanced connections, but the switch has to be bypassed then.

Behringer has balanced patchbays too, but these aren't any better.

It's very likely that some sockets will give all kind of intermittent problems and those are often really hard to find. You wouldn't want to unconnect and remove a fully patched-up patchbay from your rack just because some channels don't (always) work.

Do as Steve says; get a good quality (Mosses & Mitchell, Re'An) B-gauge patchbay, or if you can't afford it, a decent A-gauge model (Neutrik, Re'An).

I've two Re'An A-gauges in my home studio (one of which is rebranded and marketed as 'AP Audio'), we had 12 rows of the same Re'An model in the studio I worked for - never had problems, but then these were only in light use anyway.

Given the relatively low price of the Neutriks, which use genuine Neutrik connectors anyway, I wouldn't hesistate one second and pick the Neutrik over the Behringer any day.

Cheers,
Frank

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Imagination is more important than knowledge - A. Einstein

Quote E D:

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Someone on this thread claimed that putting anything through his behringer patchbay, did nasty things to the clarity of sounds and something about the top end going.

Being Behringer (all about the budget). This doesn't surprise me.

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Complete load of cobblers

The clarity problem is just the intermittent crackling caused by the corroded contacts in the dodgy jack sockets after the first few weeks of use!

And of course the complete destruction of your noise floor if you were using otherwise balanced gear.

For £36 why would anyone not prefer the Neutrik?

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (08/06/07 11:23 AM)

Quote Steve Hill:

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The clarity problem is just the intermittent crackling caused by the corroded contacts in the dodgy jack sockets after the first few weeks of use!

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That said, the pair of PX3000's I installed to run alongside a mac / 01V96 / MOTU 828 in the studio I used to be a partner in are still working 100% fine, with no crackles, switch failures, or detrimental effect on the audio.

And as for the claim further up that the switches would fail after a few hundred uses - to be honest, I think this isn't an issue for most people, as they're hardly likely to be constantly de-racking the patchbays, changing configuration via the switches, and re-racking them.

If someone wanted quite a complex patchbay, which is going to be seeing a lot of large-scale patching and re-patching, then I'd probably recommend something other than a Behringer for sure. But my experience in my old place with the PX3000s was entirely positive.

Yes, obviously the top end is horribly distorted by the er... copper in the little PCBs and the er... copper in the sockets and the er... um... switches?

These things have no active components. Its a two pairs of sockets and some switching per channel.

To "do something" to the top end there would need to be something there, a capacitor, perhaps, or an inductor, or some active components...

Don't tell me... You have directional wire in your studio too perchance?

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New album 'Fantasy Bridge' available now!
Making of Fantasy Bridge Diary

Quote MarkOne:

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Yes, obviously the top end is horribly distorted by the er... copper in the little PCBs and the er... copper in the sockets and the er... um... switches?

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Sockets in the PX2000 I dismantled had thin, fragile metal contacts which were chrome-plated. However, the quality of the electrical contacts is not very good - I've a bunch of cheap Hosa patch cables which, like the PX2000's connectors, tarnish very quickly.

Plugging these into connectors which also conduct electricity in less than an optimal way is not a good idea if you want reliable connections.

Corroded contacts and bad solder joints will degrade the sound, or even prevent it from being routed through the patchbay altogether.

As for the quality of the switches: the lifespan is probably adequate for their intended use; light homestudio work. Still, I wouldn't want to rely on a Behringer patchbay as the central connecting hub in my home studio as the switches are unsealed. Dust may get in and cause all kinds of very hard-to-relocate problems...

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Imagination is more important than knowledge - A. Einstein

I used a single PX2000 in my simple setup in 1999-2000 and never experienced any problems. Once set, the switches were never touched again, and the top of the unit was covered up. I wasn't patching and repatching constantly anyway.

I think it's a question of expectations. It is a seriously budget item. But for light use, it will probably work out fine for the short term.

But consider a balanced version (the 3000) and ideally get the Neutrik one for a few extra quid.

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TAKEN.BALL.GONE.HOME

Quote trevorownage:

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Quote E D:

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Someone on this thread claimed that putting anything through his behringer patchbay, did nasty things to the clarity of sounds and something about the top end going.

Being Behringer (all about the budget). This doesn't surprise me.

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Complete load of cobblers

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Thats a complete load of cobblers as well, I have a few DAT tapes from my Behringer days that definitely sound odd, you can tell these tapes any day of the week, this is not a subtle effect, its a horrible nasty metallic top end, that only Behringer can produce. Some of their stuff is OK, but some isn't, mixers, (and PB's even though they don't have any active circuitry) are a no-no. Even my Minimon talkk-back unit sounds like this, but I only use it for talkback so I'm not worried, but I wouldn't dream of putting in "in circuit" This distortion is not even nasty enough to be interesting, its just nasty

Tony.

The word psychosomatic springs to mind when reading through this thread. Yes they probably are poorly made but a patch bay is a patch bay. I've used behringer patch bays before and had absolutely no loss in audio quality what soever. Just because it reads behringer on the front panel doesn't automatically make it crap.

Quote trevorownage:

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Quote E D:

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Someone on this thread claimed that putting anything through his behringer patchbay, did nasty things to the clarity of sounds and something about the top end going.

Being Behringer (all about the budget). This doesn't surprise me.

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Complete load of cobblers

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Yes. You're right. I forgot I only tell lies. Sorry everyone.

(p.s. just noticed i originally wrote "on this thread". I meant "in this forum")

For those of you who think that it would be impossible for a patch-bay to distort, we had a couple of strips from Signex Isopatch. Normally we only use Neutrik, but I was given these things and I though "What the Hell, they can't do any harm." and shoved them in somewhere.

Weeks later, a customer complained that the signal from the ProTools in the machine room was distorted, but when he unplugged the Radar and rerouted through its signal path, everything was OK.

We investigated and found nothing, but the distortion was there and so just threw in new cable for the PT. After the customer left, we tested the signal and there was a strange diodial property in the signal. The patch-bay had corroded on the circuit board and the result was a whole row of plugs (they were all on one board) suffered from having one side have an effect similar to an early wire diode.

Come on chaps, lets face it, if the majority of Beringer gear worked and sounded like a consort of heavenly angels I'd be the first in the queue to buy it, it would save me a lot of money ! but it doesn't ! And unfortunately in this field like many others, you do get what you pay for.
I have two items of Behringer equipment, a Composer Pro, which is very useful and has no side effects at all, and my Minimon, which isn't even used in the audio path, as I said, it has "that sound" I tried a Behringer mixer for two weeks, it ruined everything we recorded with it. It ended up as a back-up PA mixer.

Take care,

Tony.

Had a behringer patchbay - after 6 months - the contacts were so buggered - some of the routings became unavailable
I then hard patched - but then the cheap insert cables gave up after a while
I picked up a couple of bantams from ebay for a steal £5 each for a switchcraft and a mosses and mitchell
These are now redundant because somebody just gave me for free a B type BBC 96 hole 4U patchbay with a stack of cables (the cables may be naff and old but I have the connectors)

had my beringher patchbay for some years and there is no difference in sound wether the signal goes through it or not. I have also never had any problems with it breaking.

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www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm

Quote Shambolic Charm:

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had my beringher patchbay for some years and there is no difference in sound wether the signal goes through it or not. I have also never had any problems with it breaking.

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Same here. Cheap, cheerful and does what it says on the tin.
If contacts are becoming eroded in a studio environment, then you really need to look at the environment - not the equipment!! Unless behringer are supplying their equipment with damaging substances already in them? No - me thinks not. According to my analyzer, there is no difference whether the px2000 is in the signal chain or not, but if some peoples ears are more accurate than complex electronic measuring equipment..........

A little gear snobbery here I think... "I can afford a more expensive one, which must be better".

JMO

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Baby we were born to run

Quote:"The Neutrik, however, is likely to work for longer."

mmmm......

As long as the contacts are clean (ie. not dirt or dust), they'll both work for as long as each other.

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Jack of all trades, master of some.

Quote hegiian:

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Same here. Cheap, cheerful and does what it says on the tin.
If contacts are becoming eroded in a studio environment, then you really need to look at the environment - not the equipment!!

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The contacts don't become eroded - at least, not directly - but the chrome finish on the contacts gets dull pretty quickly. And that has nothing to do with the environment of my home studio. I've got two rows of Re'An patchbays which are older than the PX2000 I wrecked for my monitor controller and the connectors on the Re'An's are perfectly clean and shiny.

Same goes for all my cable connectors. The chrome plating is just poor quality. When the connectors are clean, the electrical connections will be ok and there won't be any noticeable effect on the sound. Only if the connectors are dirty or not making contact properly sound may be affected.

In brief; if the connectors are making proper contact the Behringer patchbays won't have any negative effect on sound quality. But the chance the connector busses wear out is somewhat larger than with more expensive patchbays. Hasn't got anything to do with snobbery, it's just that you get what you pay for.

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Imagination is more important than knowledge - A. Einstein

"but if some peoples ears are more accurate than complex electronic measuring equipment.........."

Surprise surprise, yes, they are, I believe them rather than graphs or print-outs.

Take care,

Tony.

Quote arpangel:

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"but if some peoples ears are more accurate than complex electronic measuring equipment.........."

Surprise surprise, yes, they are, I believe them rather than graphs or print-outs.

Take care,

Tony.

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Wow! I'm speechless!

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www.myspace.com/shambolic-charm

Hunt down the Geoff Emerick - dodgy console story
The initial engineers reports where the users was mad - they then brought up the heavy measurng equipment and guess what,...

Interview with RN...
"A 48 input console had been delivered to George Martin’s Air Studios, and Geoff Emerick was very unhappy about it. It was a new console, made not long after I had sold the Neve company in 1977. George Martin called me and said, "please come and make Geoff happy, while he’s unhappy we can’t do any work".

They’d had engineers from the company there, and so on. The danger is that if you are not sensitive to people like Geoff Emerick, and you don’t respect them for what they have done, then you are not going to listen to them. Unfortunately, there was a breed of young engineers in the company ( I hasten to say this was after I sold it !) who couldn’t understand what he was bitching about. So they went back to the company and just made a report saying the customer was mad and there wasn’t really a problem. Leave it alone, forget it, the problem will go away. They were acting like used car salesmen. I was very angry with it. So I went and spent time there, at George Martin’s request, and Geoff finally managed to show me what it was that he could hear, and then I began to hear it, too.

Now Geoff was The Golden Ears - and he still is - and he was perceiving something that I wasn’t looking for. And it wasn’t until I had spent some time with him, as it were, being lead by him through the sounds, that I began to pick up what he was listening to. And once I’d heard it, oh yes, then I knew what he was talking about. We measured it and found that in three out of the full 48 channels, the output transformers had not been correctly terminated and were producing a 3dB rise at 54kHz. And so people said, "oh no, he can’t possible hear that". But when we corrected that problem, and it was only one capacitor that had to be added to each of those three channels, I mean, Geoff’s face just lit up ! Here you have the happiness/ unhappiness mood thing the Japanese were talking about. "