Hi guys,

I was wondering if anybody has any words of wisdom for me..........basically i'm fed up with what i do for a living and want a change of career. I would love a career in the music industry, ie studio work. However the problem i've got is, i have an ok paid job, kids, mortgage etc etc usual stuff, so am trying to change my career into something i love doing which is music (not another one, i hear you cry!!) Which course of action is best to take, from people's experience - I've looked up the Apple certified courses, but this has had mixed reactions from people i 've asked about, are they worth it??? Is it a case of doing lots of work experience for free at various big studios to get in the door that way (which is workable, for a couple of hours a week or so, i have a very understanding girlfriend!! or applying for a tea boy job and working my way up?? Which is probably out of the question, see above!!!

Anyway, it would nice to hear of anybodies stories if they were in the same situation and managed to change their direction or if the Apple courses are worth doing?

Cheers

Oh boy.
The stock answer is that you can`t mix family, mortgage etc with starting out in a new career in the music biz.
That said, I have always been married and have always managed to at least bump along the bottom.
THAT said, I started live gig work when I was 10, so I have always had an ability to generate a certain minimum cash flow.

The key here is determination.
Unless you are really truly 100% comitted to the new career, it ain`t going to happen.
Also a couple of hours here and there is not going to do it.

What you need to do before anything else is sit back and examine your motivation, the practicalities of your situation and then establish a battle plan with realistic goals and hopefully some sort of fallback plan if it all goes pear shaped.

You must have some music related skills already, so list them.
From your existing job I would hope you have some more generalised skills which might also tip the odds in your favour.
Once you have an idea what you have to offer a prospective employer, you can then start considering where you might have a chance of employment.

Don`t lock yourself entirely and exclusively into the idea of working in a studio, unless you have administrative skills (preferably finance or marketing) or you are an electronics engineer.

Courses as such aren`t going to get you a job or for that matter enhance your chances of landing aone either.
They are useful in that they will, if you choose the right course, improve your knowledge of your chosen subject.

I know this is all very generalised advice, but these days there arent really any teaboy gigs going around and it is extremely difficult to break straight into the studio side of the business.

Ask yourself what makes you think you have the skills to take on a gig like that, too.
Just because you have "always wanted" to work in a studio doesnt necessarily mean you have the background, native ability or temprament.
See if you can blag a local studio into letting you be a fly on the wall for a day, jus to see what it is REALLY like working in a studio.

Good luck & once you have your plan in place and a better idea of where you realistically think you can go, check back for more comments etc.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Before you doing anything, use the search facility in this forum. Look for 'Xytar' and read what happened to 'Arby'. He took the bold step of setting up a studio and it cost him dearly when it failed (for a variety of reasons). Working for someone else in their studio? Then you will be another wage slave and get disillusioned again. At best, the chances of you a) making good money and b) being happy doing it are slim. Big studios? Why do they want someone hanging around - lots of artists are uncomfortable with additional people there when they are working.

Apple courses?? They offer courses?? huh?

Sorry to be negative, but what you are suggesting just isn't very practical. You need to do some more research (hence this post I suspect) before considering this as an option.

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

A tough one.

I'd go with alot of what has been said.
If you earned nothing in the next 6 months, just how far up the creak would you be ?

If the answer is "a long way", then think of your family and don't go there.
Living hand-to-mouth on credit cards is not fun.

If you are mid 30's then you are leaving a bit late, as by the time you are up to speed, you with be, in the eyes of many, "too old" to be an engineer.


If you are able to do some music work on a part time basis, then you may be able, in the future, to cross over.

Most of us do a varirty of music related work, be it live, studio, location, all sorts.
This is becuase we do not have the luxury of choice ( bills to pay) but cannot stand the though of a 9-5 job.

As I see it, technology makes studios less appealing to artists as many work at home in their computers - so studios are closing.

Music publishing is in deline and has been for years.
Nowadays I think if you sell a CD single it goes platinum !!
OK, I am exagertaing but you get my point - the biz is getting harder.

If you are still not convined of just how difficult is can be, consider this :-

I have been in the industry for nearly 20 years.
I have owned and run commercial studios,
Toured first the UK, then Europe and now most of the globe.
I am well known (and hopefuly respected) in the biz.

All this does not garentee a regular pay cheque.

This industry can be great fun and occasional very rewarding ( thank god ! )
The rest of the time is is a constant struggle.

I know this sounds gloomy but better you know the truth.
Behind the gliz and glamour there are a lot of hard-working telented people, fighting to make ends meet.

So why do we bother ?
Simple, we love what we do.

Personally, I want out - to retire,
You can have my job.....

Quote Metrog:

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...I was wondering if anybody has any words of wisdom for me...

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During a gold rush, the people who make all the money are the ones selling the picks and shovels.

I can't find out what happend to Arby because you can search back that far!

Go on then what happend?

If you're very good, it's doable, but you need to have enough cash saved so that you can afford to earn basically nothing for about the first 2-3 years.

J

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www.jackruston.com

Metrog. Do you have a choice? Have you considered what will happen if you don't change careers? If you don't at least attempt to follow your dreams? They say that we regret what we didn't do not what we did do. Wouldn't you rather have failed at trying to work in the music industry than never having tried? And of course you might succeed. Regardless the journey there, to success or failure, will most likely be a lot more interesting than what you're doing now and you might even eek out a living on the way to boot.

So that's the wisdom bit. On a more practical note, the numero uno bible for career change is the book below. It will help you focus your interests and skills. You need clearer goals than "music industry", "studio work" to aim for.

What Colour Is Your Parachute?

The advice about how people get jobs (they make them themselves in short) is particularly relevant to the creative industries.

Jim.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Is there any way that you can work part time...say three days a week in a regular job and spend the rest of the time developing your music career?

Some people believe that this is 'not fully committing'. Well that's in the mind of the person concerned but it could well make the difference between surviving financially and therefore having a chance to suceed, and not surviving and so being forced back to what you were doing before.

J

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www.jackruston.com

Everybody seems to think that their jobs have to give them personal satisfaction.

When you were young, you were told by parents and career masters that you have a choice, you can either knuckle down, go to university and study a real subject and study hard and get a career that will give you career satisfaction, or you can goof off with your mates, get a job in your teens and start earning money early.

You have a wife and children and you are responsible for them. You cannot abrogate that responsibility, just because you are bored.

I really can't see this working unless you already have skills that can be used in the studio business or you wait until the kids have grown up and make the change then.

One question - why have you decided this now a this stage in your life? Most people who want to work in this business will already have been involved in some way from an early age.

Cheers

James.

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JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

The first question to (re)ask is whether you really are bored with your job or bored because you're not using such spare time as you have to do things you really enjoy? Address this and you may find you aren't as miserable as you think you are.

I went through a similar phase years ago, but instead of kicking over the traces at work I involved myself in as many areas of music as possible outside work. I played in rock bands, jazz groups and my local orchestra, I did sound recording, PA and DJing for anyone who wanted me, wrote books and magazine articles on music, repaired the odd guitar, refurbished my father's vintage drum kit and generally made sure that my spare time wasn't spent sitting on club committees, mowing the lawn (well, I did mow the lawn, but only when the cat started getting lost), watching television or moaning to my mates in the pub. (In my case I subsequently moved into a freelance career, but that wasn't part of the process, being fairly common in my chosen profession.)

In short, then, are you as engaged with music as you can possibly be at the moment without ditching the day job? If the answer's no, work towards that and don't regard yourself as any kind of candidate for career change until your non-career, non-family time is completely saturated with musical activity. Then ask yourself again whether you're bored. You may find that your day job is in fact quite interesting and also allows you to be involved with music without fear of financial catastrophe.

Quote The Red Bladder:

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Everybody seems to think that their jobs have to give them personal satisfaction.

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Granted, such expectations are manifest of our privileged position as wealthy westerners but, there's nothing wrong in aspiring towards work that not only provides for us but also satisfies us ... is there?

Quote The Red Bladder:

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When you were young, you were told by parents and career masters that you have a choice, you can either knuckle down, go to university and study a real subject and study hard and get a career that will give you career satisfaction, or you can goof off with your mates, get a job in your teens and start earning money early.

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And they were wrong as far as I can see 20 years on!

Quote The Red Bladder:

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You have a wife and children and you are responsible for them. You cannot abrogate that responsibility, just because you are bored.

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Unless Metrog is some kind of sociopath I'm sure he has no intention of making his family destitute in his attempt to "avoid boredom". You could equally argue that one, and I say one rather than he as this could all get a bit personal, one might be a more effective husband and father if one were spending their working day a happy bunny.

Is happiness, satisfaction our God given right? No, of course not. But to strive for it is our duty to ourselves surely? Not at *any cost* but a world full of happy satisfied people is probably gonna run a lot more smoothly than one without.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

Quote Zaxx:

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The first question to (re)ask is whether you really are bored with your job or bored because you're not using such spare time as you have to do things you really enjoy? Address this and you may find you aren't as miserable as you think you are.

I went through a similar phase years ago, but instead of kicking over the traces at work I involved myself in as many areas of music as possible outside work. I played in rock bands, jazz groups and my local orchestra, I did sound recording, PA and DJing for anyone who wanted me, wrote books and magazine articles on music, repaired the odd guitar, refurbished my father's vintage drum kit and generally made sure that my spare time wasn't spent sitting on club committees, mowing the lawn (well, I did mow the lawn, but only when the cat started getting lost), watching television or moaning to my mates in the pub. (In my case I subsequently moved into a freelance career, but that wasn't part of the process, being fairly common in my chosen profession.)

In short, then, are you as engaged with music as you can possibly be at the moment without ditching the day job? If the answer's no, work towards that and don't regard yourself as any kind of candidate for career change until your non-career, non-family time is completely saturated with musical activity. Then ask yourself again whether you're bored. You may find that your day job is in fact quite interesting and also allows you to be involved with music without fear of financial catastrophe.

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Excellent advice. Mirrors some of the ideas in the book reference I gave above.

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Original artwork and unique devices inspired by vintage technology http://www.thisisobsolete.com

how many people actually in this business do you think are fed up too?

It's not a cure-all, and it's not actually that satisfying when you're still barely scraping through doing the thing you love...

it's constant hard work when you're struggling, and constant hard work when you're busy.

do it because you love it, not because you want to make a career - that should come as an added bonus if all goes well.

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I honestly think you ought to sit down calmly, take a stress pill and think things over
Twitter

I'm interested in why the poster wants to work in a studio - what is it that attracts him? Is it the glitz and glamour?

There are a lot of downsides in working in a studio. Just listing some that spring to mind :

- long hours
- low pay
- treated as the lowest of the low by jumped up kids with 'attitude'
- a fair amount of 'karaoke' work to pay the bills, and the awful feeing of dread when the 1000th woman comes in and says 'I want to sound like Celine Dion'
- ditto but for a wannabe rock chick / 'Black Velvet' (shudders)
- working weekends
- eating badly / lack of exercise / getting ill
- correcting work that is out of time
- correcting work that is out of tune
- finding out that the upgrade that you thought was ok has started crashing regularly
- seeing your precious gear in bits after 'it just came off in my hand'
- working on music that you can't stand
- having to deal with people who think that because they are managers / agents / mooks they can tell you how to do your job
- having to record things that sound like crap because someone has 'vintage' gear
- wasting time recording nonsense because someone wants to try out a special mic'ing technique
- finding diplomatic ways of getting people to take their drink / drugs out of your studio (what with you not wanting damaged gear or wanting to be nicked)
- Getting the damned money off people : you would be surprised just how many people do a session and then announce that they will pay you next week, or someone forgot to bring their share, etc

Anything I've missed?

Best to go into these things with all the info ...

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Veni, Vidi, Aesculi
(I came, I saw, I conkered)

All good advice here, and to add:

A great many mid to large sized studios have closed down and the ratio of jobs positions available versus applications is staggeringly gloomy and one sided.

The semi-pro home studios rarely, if ever, need engineers and the like, so it has become increasingly harder to find employment in any type of studio unless you are both highly qualified, are in multi media, and are damn lucky.

Maybe think a little laterally and try to find employment in other parts of the industry that are not engineer specific.

Keep the day job irrespective of what you decide until you are earning enough to warrant this bold move.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

After a while, due to repetition, almost any job can become boring.

I wouldn't want to be employed by a studio, unless it was in post-pro (highly paid). Even then, I like to know what time the day ends!

These days I have a studio (excellent equipment but just one room) but mostly for myself, and I make money providing services to pro-audio companies. I make a better living this way than when I was a professional musician.

By all means, change job if you hate yours or it could make you sick. But the top criteria when choosing a new position should be stuff like income level, transport time to and from work, career development.

I'd also like to say... music is precious, and much too important to turn it into a job.

It's different if you have a real chance to become mega-rich doing your thing. Then it's worth it. But you can prepare for that from outside the industry and... I don't think it's something you can rely on when you have family responsibilities.

But do change career! Your post indicates that it is necessary.

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There is a subtle difference between "having no form" and having "no form": the first is ignorance, the second, transcendance.

Hi Metrog,

I was in a similar position to you last year, when I got very dissolusioned with the job I was doing. I worked long, long hours (10hrs sleep in 14 days for one festival), fell out with some collegues and was on half the money I felt I was worth, and this was my dream job!! (rigging and sound/lighting engineer)

So, when quite a few people called me and asked if I could record some stuff for them (voice over stuff and a few bands), I took the plunge and left work to set up my own studio. I sought out as much advice as I could from Business link, banks, solicitors, accountants, other small businesses, anyone who stood still for more than 10 seconds!! What no-one told me about was the sleepless nights, the constant worry about where the next pay cheque is coming from, the true facts about running a business such as people will want everything for nothing, and are not prepared to back down!!

I started trading officially in November of last year, and although I have had a few "big" jobs in, I have just finished my last big paying piece of work. This means, now I have to start looking for more people to get into the studio, I have to start thinking about how the bills are going to be paid, how I will manage if I dont get work in this month, coz no work = no money!

In my first 6months, I've made a loss of about £400 which I'm actually amazed at considering! And about half of that is bank charges paid because I've gone overdrawn when people fail to pay me! My girlfriend is remarkably supportive, she knows how much this means to me, and the fact I cant take her out every weekend like I used to. But, this is what it's like!!

I know from your post that you don't particularly want to start your own studio, just work in one, but I think I'm with many in the same boat who would love to take someone on, but just really cant afford to. Big studios are closing all the time, and unfortunately having a piece of paper with a name of a course on doesn't mean you'll get a job with one either.

I'm sorry if this seems a bit doom and gloom, I'm not trying to put you off, as I think that if it's what you really want, you should do it, but just be very, very prepared for what packing everything in entails! In fact, have another kid, you'll get more sleep!!

Have a think about signing up for local crew work at a music venue in the area you're in. It's just pushing boxes and lifting, but you get to know people, and that, is a very valuable thing to do.

Oh, and if you're any good at accounting or marketing, gimme a ring coz I'm sh!te!!!

Laters

Ben

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The early bird may catch the worm, but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese!

Quote TP.:

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After a while, due to repetition, almost any job can become boring.

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agreed. I earn very well. But man, some of the tasks are dull dull dull. Some jobs frustratingly so. the hours are long and everyone expects you at their beck and call - so when you're working for an LA company you do get calls at funny hours. Seven day working weeks are common too.... boo. BUT - I earn a lot so it IS worth it. Im not sure i'd still be doing it if i was earning like ten years ago - and i'm not sure i'd continue if the few advantages went away! It certainly is a way to go through relationships though - thats another tale...

Quote TP.:

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unless it was in post-pro (highly paid).

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Hah!

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

I've been where you are now, many times before.

I am a solicitor by profession, and have been for 17 years. I have acted for big and small name stars, for record companies (mainly small independants), two well-known guitar manufacturers, a very famous amp manufacturer, and for publishers. That was my day job. In the evenings and at the weekends, I wrote, performed and recorded with my band, writing our own stuff. I've played nearly all the top venues, I've had stuff published, played on radio, and have had my work covered by other artists.

And I am still a solicitor.

About 15 years ago, I came to the realisation that I was never going to break the big time (very few in the "industry" do). Or rather, I made the decision that I was not prepared to put in the sort of work that was required to break the big time (the hard graft that is known as "touring"). Basically, I chose between (a) the hard uncertain world of the "recording contract" and (b) the far more certain world of commercial law. Do I regret making the decision? Yes. Do I still think that I made the right decision? Yes.

You can be a "big name" and be skint. You would not believe some of the people I have stood beers for, because they could not afford to buy a round! Indeed, I know of some (once very famous) talented individuals who now scrape a living trying to cling onto their dream of stardom. Some have got out of the industry altogether, and are happier for having got on with their lives by having left the "industry" far behind them.

Being a clever sort of chap, and something of a realist, I knew that the chances of my being able to be self-sufficient and financially stable from earnings in the music biz were very slim. So, instead of changing my career, I decided to change my attitude about my career and make it work for me. Now, I have my own legal practice and some very decent clients, and this earns me a decent income. I'm happy because I have control over what I do. I no longer work in the City (rather, I live and work near the seaside), and my quality of life has gone through the roof. I make time for both work (which I now love) and for my music.

I still write, peform and record my own stuff. I don't have a band anymore (although I was thinking of starting one up again - for old timesake). I have a fairly decent studio which I have been running part time for about 10 years, and which earns me a modest income, not enough to enable me to give up the day job, but enough to pay for itself. I have done some remix work, recorded tracks for local bands, had my stuff played on local radio, taught, and produced a film track for a local film producer. I actually turn work away!

There must be hundreds like me out there, each with their own story, each with their own path to where they are now, but each united by the same common thread - they have stuck with music for love and not money.

This is probably not what you wanted to hear. However, I am in the privileged position of having seen the "industry" from every possible angle, inside and out. Very little of it is pretty. None of it is easy. My experience of it is that you will always be chasing it, it will never come chasing you. Also, if you work in the "industry" as your main job, you might very well end up hating it. Do you want that? I've known and know a lot of disillusioned producers, engineers, musicians, etc...

Hi Metrog

Day job for dough
Music for show

or thereabouts.

For what it's worth, here's my story. I had a band with a record deal over 10 years ago. Recorded two CD's and toured my country (Portugal) extensively for about 4 years. For those four years I lived off music, mainly from gigs because the money a second league artist makes from a CD is laughable. I could make a living alright but I would not get to the end of the month with money most months. I also could not make any plans involving any significant funding because it would be impossible to estimate how much money I would get in the following months. I could even be nothing in a few months per year.


Eventually I quit the band when they decided to move to the US and chase the "American dream". I went trough a period of being completely lost on a professionally and personal level, and then I started studying, started an engineering career, an now I work as a software developer and I'm a part time musician with a home studio.

I can tell you that I really do appreciate having a fixed income that allows me to buy studio equipment and musical instruments every month and still put some money aside, go on holidays and all that. I would not go back to being a gigging artist again for a living because I know that the chances of making it big are very very slim, and I can't do without the financial security at this point. I much prefer this to what I had before, even though sometimes I do miss some of the excitement.

My current job in Ireland is sometimes very boring also. But I get to have time for the music which is great. I'd would like to join a band one of these days, but just for the fun.

I don't know if that will help, but just remember that even though the grass looks always greener on the other side, it isn't always.....

Hi Metrog,

Your situation sounds very familiar. I'll give you my story:

From the age of 15 I have been playing in bands for fun and the dream of "making it". After a couple of years I first entered a studio to record a couple of songs for a demo. What fun that was! It made me more interested in the recording side of music.
After finishing my master's Biology I started working at a pharmaceutical company and started to develop the same feeling you have: being fed up and wanting to work in a studio.
Well, I took a "plunge" and enlisted myself for a course in audio engineering. This would give me more knowledge and the network to get where I wanted to be, I thought. And I thought wrong... (Read all the posts above about the decline of the medium sized and big studios). It got me nowhere really. I understood that the only way for me to "make it" is to spend all my time in recording, making music, networking, recording some more, etc. And that's impossible, cause I've got mortgages to pay.

What I did is what others posters already mentioned: I changed my job for a job at a company closer to home with less responsibility and I started "my own studio", mainly for fun.

I now try to think like table for two:

Quote table for two:

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Day job for dough
Music for show

or thereabouts.

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Good luck!!!!

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My mind's not right...

Hi Guys,

Something went wrong with my password for Metrog, never mind!! Wow, thanks for all the replies, some really great advice there, really appreciate all the truthful stories, good and bad!! Reading through the posts has made me think outside the box a little bit more.....just for the record I have DJ'd for 13 years, produced dance music for 7, I run 2 dance labels (part time, along with my day job) amongst other things. There are many reasons why I didn't get into the industry earlier, due to personal circumstances, I have an ex wife to support also now, but now I have changed women, this one much more career supporting, and feel I want to work in the industry full time and really get my teeth into work, I have a passion for. Maybe I did come across and being a bit one track minded when I said studio work, but I have a half decent home studio set up, where I get time to work on projects and would love to take that to another level.....All i'm after is a bit of job satisfaction!! You guys have really given me food for thought, and I am at present planning my next move/moves towards my goal!!

Nice one!!

Good luck with whatever you choose to do. You certainly need a fair bit of luck in this game!

If you want to stay in dance, and you want to move from running a label to production, then I advise some homework.
The amount of luck you need varies inversley with the quality of your product.

If you want to get into bands and stuff, then god yeah, what you have just read is all true, but dance music is slightly different in that you can hone your production skills at home with any decent DAW. No one is interested in taking people on, but if you can say 'anyway - have a listen to what I can do' and present fantastic sounding tracks or remixes then maybe people will call back. Its almost impossible to do this as a general engineer since getting a showreel together depends entirely on who you get to work with - and you are unlkely to get anywhere near good acts.

Producing great dance music is obviously difficult, but dont waste any money yet on courses. Get yourself a decent DAW, Logic or Abelton, and start making your own tunes. See if you have the talent or the aptitude, then think about getting some of your artists to teach you stuff?

Sorry if this is OT if you want to get away from that scene but I found that the only way I could ever get interest was to present examples of work.
There is no reason why you cant outdo many studio owners from the comfort of your own home these days err if you have the talent.

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People I have encountered that are in rewarding and fulfilling positions in the music industry often don’t have the conveniences offered by a run of the mill corporate type job. So often long unsocial hours and erratic income can dull the excitement of doing what you love. But don’t be disheartened. I think as long as you work out exactly what you want to do and have a plan that does not rely on luck, and you are prepared to put the work in, you should be fine. I don’t think becoming a tea boy and working your way up is the answer either, unless it is part of your cunning detailed plan that will lead somewhere. As for an apple course, it will teach you how to you the apple and software, not guarantee an income. Research your options and make a good plan. That’s your answer. Good luck

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http://www.soundbook1.co.uk/