Seems like a good way to waste a lot of money IMO.

For the same price you can buy :

2 x RODE NT1A (lower noise floor than U87!)£240.00
2 x SE Electronics SE2200A £270.00
2 x KEL HM-1 £250.00
2 x SP B1 £120.00
2 x Rode NT5 £220.00
2 x Violet Designs Black Knight(lower self noise than U87!) £460.00

I can tell you what I would do and the Neumann U87 would not be in my mic collection afterwards.

Of course it's provocative and I expect the "Oh yar but I'm a professional you see and I only associate my self with the finest money can buy etc. etc., Well I think some people are deaf to a bargain and possibly don't have a clue what they are talking about.

This should be fun

--------------------
This time next week, who'll give a sh*t
http://www.podcastrevision.co.uk

Personally I don't like the modern U87 either. However, I also don't like a number of the other mikes you have listed predominantly for the same reasons.

It's a matter of taste... and there is room for all of these products in a multi-tiered, multi-application market.

Reg

I would not consider any of the mics you list worthy of having in my collection at all.

The U87 is worth every penny of it's price - but I don't have that in my collection either.

It depends on what you want to do and what you are recording.

As a vocal mic. that can mace even a mediocre singer sound good, the U87 is still a superb mic.

But good money spent on good mics is definitely worth it.

I have several mics over 20 years old that are still in current production and the second hand value is about double what the street price was when I bought them.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

If you'd ever used one you would not be asking the question.

You're just googling on prices.

You could also buy a lot of beans on toast for the same money.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

...You could also buy a lot of beans on toast for the same money...

---

Though they do have very high self noise.

Quote:

---

Man of Style:
Well I think some people are deaf to a bargain and possibly don't have a clue what they are talking about.

---

Reading your post I'd agree that one of those possibilities is probably correct

I would rather have one *great* mic than a pile of crappy ones...

'nuff said.

--------------------
James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Man of Style:

---

Seems like a good way to waste a lot of money IMO.

For the same price you can buy :

2 x RODE NT1A (lower noise floor than U87!)£240.00
2 x SE Electronics SE2200A £270.00
2 x KEL HM-1 £250.00
2 x SP B1 £120.00
2 x Rode NT5 £220.00
2 x Violet Designs Black Knight(lower self noise than U87!) £460.00

I can tell you what I would do and the Neumann U87 would not be in my mic collection afterwards.

---

The problem with your list is that only one of the above is a bona fide mic manufacturer. The others merely box and badge other people's capsules and add their own housings and electronics. Some are actually the same microphone.

More rubbish and misinformation is spouted about electronic concepts such as noise, distortion, frequency responce and such things than you could point a stick at.

Is a mic of with the caliber of a U87 worth it ?

Yes. Even the newer ones.

--------------------
"Over fifteen years without a slogan"

It depends on your perspective doesnt it?

The mics you listed would probably suit what you are trying to achieve better than just a single U87......but if you had the money and could afford it (and were happy to spend those sums of money) would you buy the U87?

I would. One thing Ive learnt is buy the best mics you can. For me my Rode NT1000s and Rode K2 which were around the £250 and £350 prices are the top end of what I could justify spending at the time. Recently Ive bought Studio Projects B3s - a mere £105 each - but thats because they suited what Im trying to achieve in terms of features/price - but if I could afford the Sennheiser MKH40 & MKH30 would I buy them?

Too right I would.

Let me give you an example. A few months back I bought some Rode NT5 mics - a nice matched pair. At the same time I also bought a pair of Behringer C2 mics - again a matched pair. The Rode mics cost around £180...the Behringers £35 (come on - im learning and experimenting and for £35 quid its worth spending it just to compare the two....). The difference is huge. The Rodes produce a better quality signal by a long way - I dont just mean subtle nuances either. The NT5s are louder, have significantly less noise and produce a much more natural sound compared to the Behringers (BTW yes I know what people say about behringer so this is probably just to be expected). Now, OK as the mic prices rise the quality level changes significantly and the thus the differences in quality become less apparent. Im sure I could hear differences between a £500 mic and my £240 NT1000s (not just relating to differences of freq response) - I might even possibly be able to hear the difference between £1000 mic and a £500....but Im sure it will be a lot harder than between the C2 and the NT5s!

But does this translate to a better quality recording - yeah Im convinced it does. Good mics with a good knowledgable experienced enginer can produce fantastic results....I aspire to owning the first and being the second!!

Ok, that's got all the predictable posts that appear on every forum out of the way after such a statement.

(And I have heard all mics with exception to the Violet audio which I have heard on the grapevine is astonishing)
U87 did not immediately say to me "top notch mic, go and buy one it will mean I am a professional who knows what he talks about and give the best recording ever"

The above are all examples U87/ etc. etc.

I think I am trying to present 12 mics Vs 1 in terms of what you could practically do AND quality comparison

A) You could record a lot more sources
B) I am doubtful anyone could here the difference.
C) Rememeber, there is a mic for every source.

There is a very good chance one of the other mics would suit
a given source better than a U87, in addition to that as this is so totally subjective and every engineers ears are different by a wide margin there is an extremely likely chance that one of the other IS simply better.

I have a had a regularly used RODE NT1 for 7 years now,
not a problem, unless a mic breaks fairly quickly you should be good for quite some time in my personal experience. Though I have had a problem a some of the mics, but these were replaced quicky and efficiently no questions asked.

I think the "I love U87 brigade" should think out of the box
on this one.

Personally anyone would have a very hard time convincing me
otherwise, though I am open for any decent reasoning.

P.S. here is a session I did with an SE2200 recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEy4TKI7Uwc

The SE2200E was nothing less than fantastic.

And I don't work for SE !

indeed....

whilst some of the mics you mention are great value at the price they are offered, when you use a(n?) U87 (even the modern ones!!) you can hear why they are more money! And self noise characteristics are not all of the story!

The easiest way to explain - go to a good studio for a day and test out various mics against each other. You'll see (hear) very quickly...

--------------------
Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Quote John Willett:

---

As a vocal mic. that can mace even a mediocre singer sound good, the U87 is still a superb mic.

---

I've got to disagree there John. I think that's one of the big myths of gear. A mediocre singer will always sound no better than they are, however you mic them. You will certainly capture the full mediocrity with a U87... but you won't make it good.

Which is not to say there's a point to this thread, apart from ow's joke.

--------------------
www.bemuso.com

This is an utterly pointless thread. Why are poeple wasting their bandwidth with this twaddle?

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

I'm unpersuaded by the "new" 87s. But I have three of the old ones which have all been professionally reconditioned by Mr Willett's colleagues.

This really is not about the difference between say a Ford and a Ferrari. I agree either will get you from A to B reliably and in relative comfort. It's about the difference between a pushbike and a car. The former may not be your optimal choice for a 500 mile journey where you want to arrive reasonably sane and refreshed.

I don't think you can make the kind of sweeping statements you are making without at least a passing acquaintance with the mics you criticise, having used them in anger for a reasonable period. Then, and only then, you might be able to engage in intelligent debate. Quoting googled self-noise figures is frankly close to just trolling.

I collect 25 year old Neumann KM84s rather than buy new KM184s (similar price) even though I know the noise is worse. The 84s sound better. Visiting engineers and producers to my studio come because they are there. They don't bring along a bunch of NT5s and say let's try these instead.

Anyway, bugger the 87: I want one of these!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

This is an utterly pointless thread. Why are poeple wasting their bandwidth with this twaddle?

Hugh

---

well - chit chat at 9 in the morning over a cuppa and biscuits is a nice way to wake up. More wasted bandwidth.....sorry

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

I very much doubt that CAD and Wunder make microphones either, but bolt together bought in parts.

So how did you test these mics? Singing a few lines? Or did you go the whole way and plonk it in a mix? I've used the B1 and the Rode, band recorded songs with both and I mixed. Soulful female vocalist. Complete PITA to get the vocal to sit in the mix (same vocalist, two different songs). It's far easier with the 87, any of them. Or my fave, the AT4033. Actually, even a 58 is better on a vocal than any of the other mics you listed! Twaddle.

--------------------
madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

Quote narcoman:

---

well - chit chat at 9 in the morning over a cuppa and biscuits is a nice way to wake up. More wasted bandwidth.....sorry

---

Hobnobs I trust.

@Red Bladder: there's a very good piece on the Wunder "47" in the new issue of Tape Op. I think there's a bit more to it than a cut-and-paste of Chinese components! They will even, at increased cost, do you one with the original Telefunken VF14 tube. But they say on their own website that it's a "dinosaur" and not worth it - refreshingly honest.

The mic is the product of them listening to and testing 150 "real" 47s. They have the transformers wound by a retired Telefunken engineer in Germany on vintage equipment. Etc etc. Seems to be truly a labour of love and (according to the Tape Op review), the best mic ever made by anybody, bar none.

More here . OK, I'm not going to spend £3,269 without hearing one, but it probably deserves an audition if you're into that sort of thing.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (22/06/07 08:34 AM)

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

This is an utterly pointless thread. Why are poeple wasting their bandwidth with this twaddle?

Hugh

---

Agreed.

My finger was twitching on the delete/lock function, if only to save Ian server space.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

Steve, I'm sure that the Wunder whateveritis is just the dog's bollocks, but then SE capsules are getting better and better.

I have just read all that gushing praise in Tape Op, for some reason I cannot quite fathom, I am on their mailing list. That is the first article I have ever read in that publication. Resolution - yes, Audio Media - yes, even SOS if someone leaves it lying around. But tape op? Sorry, it seems to be another "how to mic up a drum kit" magazine. That and interviews with people I have never heard of.

Actually Hugh, I was rather thinking that SOS could help us out on this one
by doing a shoot out feature. As every mic the magazine reviews is pretty much given a decent review irrelavant of price it would be very educational to end users. (with all due respect let's talk tangible reviewing)

I suggest U87 + another high end mic Vs "X" no. of up to £200 er's

Example shootout :

U87Ai
SE2200A
SPB1
RODE NT1A

Then a preamp shootout using a U87 and an SM57, U87 with a 1073, GML,API etc. etc. then on A+H Mix wizard and VLZ3 XDR preamps 2 x highly regarded but lower end industry standards

Suggested sources, snare and vocals.

This would be an extremely interesting article and I bet everyone on this board would love it, high enders and low enders alike.

I think something productive and good could out of this bandwidth sucking twaddle.

Quote Man of Style:

---

Actually Hugh, I was rather thinking that SOS could help us out on this one by doing a shoot out feature.

---

I take it you know about the the listening sessions?

And SOS can post these up on their server letting everyone have there
own opinion.

It also strikes me as being a bit strange that a reviewers from a magazine predominantly aimed at beginners / semi pro's (although highly appreciated and interesting for pro's) is saying that comparison between mics of the high end and lower end is not worth doing.

Most of the readership will not be able to afford a U87Ai mic, I think the
lower end microphones needs to be heard in context with the expensive models so people could here these differences.

The files would have to be short 16bit wav's I suggest, I am doubtful this would a waste of bandwidth.

Yes but found it pointless as they switch between preamps and 1/2 if it's MP3
last time I looked, it does not seem controlled enough IMO.

Quote Man of Style:

---

Yes but found it pointless as they switch between preamps and 1/2 if it's MP3 last time I looked, it does not seem controlled enough IMO.

---

Session 5 is pretty good IMHO. I admit, mic positioning could be better controlled, but a great mic could sound bad in the same place a crap mic sounds OK. Its very hard to offer a consistant shootout as positioning has so much of a bearing on the sound, increasingly so with more expensive mics IMO. It sounds to me as if the virtues of an expensive mic cannot be conveyed well enough in a shootout like this - a great mic could sound a bit rubbish, because in the interests of consistancy, its placement is off.

John

OK - I'll rise to the bait...

I was supposed to do a mixing session this week but when I heard the files I knew immediately that the vocals had been recorded on a mic with a Chinese capsule which simply accentuated the worst aspects of this singer's voice while losing all the good aspects.

Fortunately we could re-record the vocals here so I put up a U47 and U87 in similar positions releative to where she was standing and recorded both so that we had the choice of which sound to use on mixdown.

As usual, the U47 gave me a slightly extended top end but the U87 just seemed to work better in the mix. That's where the U87 always wins out - other mics sound more impressive on solo voice but the recordings just take up too much space in the mix. The U87 just works.

The U87 is also used on countless recordings so we have come to expect recorded vocals to have that sound.

Cheers

James.

--------------------
JRP Music - Audio Mastering and Restoration.
http://www.jrpmusic.net

I once partook in a blind mic test where three different models from SE, Neumann and Gefell, priced Y, Yx2 and Yx4, were used to record the exact same source at the exact same time.

The difference was there, but very, very slight in my opinion.

Although there is an obvious place and application for it, personally I could never warrant spending that much on a mic as the nature of my music doesn’t require such high end recording quality. I also believe that to the average music-buying punter, when confronted with a sonic wall of sound and lots of detail to focus on, there is very little chance that they give a rat’s arse about whether or not the vocals were recorded with the best and most expensive mic out there or even be able to hear a negligible difference, be it a Neumann or not.

We are the only ones that care, and sadly, we are in the very small minority.

D.

--------------------
www.thirdfloormusic.com

Quote James Perrett:

---

but the U87 just seemed to work better in the mix.

---

Strike 2!

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madtheory creations
Synths and pianos for Kontakt

it isnt a negligable difference.

It may be sat at home having all the fun in the world.

But when it comes to mixing a seriously world class piece of music (yes even some of the rubbish we all hate - blah blah, the view etc etc ) cheap mics, if used through out, tend to fold up sonically. They are already adding slightly (yes, very slight) undesirable colourations and amplifying certain frequencies in a none desirable way. Yes its very very slight. You try eqing that stuff or compressing it in a scorching garage rock mix without it breaking up and accenting everything that is brittle and bad about digital life. If you want great sounding mixes, you gotta have great sounding sources.

Not all equipment IS aimed at the home use, remember. However, if you want to compete in the pro world, im afraid on the whole, you are going to have to use very good equipment. Its one of the reaosns that, most of the time, the very best records contain the best all the way through! From (not always!) talent to mix and master - via great rooms and great mics. I have used SE mics a lot. They are budget and they get relegated to the second studio in our place. they are great value - but when im doing a recording for a world class act in studio numero uno, then the good stuff gets prioritized!!

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Battenburg to the power of 20 - said by Richie Royale in a moment of genius. 4pm. Wed 16th Nov 2011. Remember where you were....

Last time we recorded vox in a studio we ended up going with an AT4040 for the lead vox. This was after a version with the U87. And on another track a NT1A for the lead. We ended up using the U87 for the BV's.

Which leads me to my point, the song, voice, and style of delivery (pertaining to that particular song) make it a case of which mic is right this time.

No 1 mic is right or wrong all the time. is it?

Quote Darclinc:

---

I once partook in a blind mic test where three different models from SE, Neumann and Gefell, priced Y, Yx2 and Yx4, were used to record the exact same source at the exact same time.

---

The U87's greatest feature is that it sounds pretty good on everything. You can throw it up quickly against anything and be sure you're gonna get a great sound. This is the quality you are paying for - the cheaper mics just don't cover ALL the bases in the same way.

If you had the ultimate mic locker and unlimited time on your hands, you could probably always find a better mic for the job at hand. But, we live in the real world and that is rarely these days a possibility.

Shoot outs aren't always the best indicator of quality when it comes to mics and preamps. The real quality items really shine when you start to stack up the tracks. They often don't seem all that different when A/B ing, but by the time you've got a dozen BV's down, rhythm section etc etc then it really becomes apparent.

Edited by Vinylizor (22/06/07 10:24 AM)

Quote Man of Style:

---

I can tell you what I would do and the Neumann U87 would not be in my mic collection afterwards.

---

I don't really know why you're quibbling at these prices. You can get a Zoom H4 with stereo U87 mic emulation... the best of both worlds for your applications.



--------------------
www.bemuso.com

The situation I can think that such a mic could be justified is high end no compromise (i.e. its expected you have one) no second chance (unlike the post above where vocals were re-recorded with a U87 after the other unnamed signal path was deemed unsatisfactory)

This is not generally the target audience of the magazine, so rather than make it up and say a Chinese mic is not as good U87, it would be great if sound on sound can do a shoot out to let us make up our own minds, otherwise it's simply a case of right mic for right source and not that a U87 is "better".

As far as all the signals add up in a mix it is highly unlikely that an entire band would be recorded with soley budget mics, so I don't buy it, I use a mix of staple quality mics and cheaper LDC's/SDC's generally.

I think this is a VERY important issue and one that should be given a 12 page feature

Good quality budget mics and preamps Vs there high end counterparts
then all readers can make there own minds up about the merits or lacktherof
of well considered budget purchase Vs "I have no money left and 2 mics, I can't record very much" high end purchases.

In fact if it does not get looked at pretty soon by SOS I would be quite dissappointed.

I think Paul White seems to be a man who appreciates that in many instances
the lower cost versions can hit a lot higher than you would anticipate.

This month he fairly and wisely suggests looking at some significantly cheaper options before committing to a £1,000.00 purchase.

Come on SOS, give some power to the people !

Get that MEGA mic/preamp shootout sorted, it will go down in audio history
as one of the best music tech articles of all time and my god what fun that would be to put that article together !

In fact invite me !

Quote Man of Style:

---

Come on SOS, give some power to the people !

Get that MEGA mic/preamp shootout sorted, it will go down in audio history
as one of the best music tech articles of all time and my god what fun that would be to put that article together !

In fact invite me !

---

Hmmmm....someone was worried about bandwidth being taken up with this thread. How much bandwidth does an ego take up?

Anyway, I for one would prefer the good editorial fellows at SOS to decide what articles may be of interest and who will write them! Readers can choose whether to buy or not (and it would seem they generally do).

It's true many of us can't afford the top gear, but surely the point of the process is to aspire for excellence. If we are successful enough to afford top gear and can use it to good advantage, all well and good.

To attempt to justify the existence of budget products by a shoot off with more expensive gear is an exercise in mediocrity and I don't see the point.

Bob

--------------------
www.bickerton.co.nz

Quote:

---

This is an utterly pointless thread. Why are poeple wasting their bandwidth with this twaddle?

---

ah ha ha pwnage!

and you wanna watch those hobnobs btw, my mate got addicted to them and had to be weaned off them. The sugar rush makes you go out and buy a 5 grand vintage preamp which has been recommended when you ask for something to use with your 4-track cassette portastudio on gearslutz

Quote Man of Style:

---

Get that MEGA mic/preamp shootout sorted,

---

It's already been done to a much higher degree than SOS could ever hope to do.

3D Audio Shootouts

No one is saying that you can't get good sounds with budget gear. But in the audio world what you get for your money is down to the law of ever diminishing returns. It costs ever more money to get that extra 5% quality.

Is it really worth £2.5K for a neve 1081 when you can get a decent eq and pre for £500. And why would you ever buy an SSL console when you can buy the plugins from Waves?

You 'should' know the answer.

oh, and no shootouts gonna work cos no mic suits all singers the same, but does this really have to be said?

anyways if you subcribe to SE's 'news'-letter you'd think the only person in the entire world who hasn't switched to an SE mic is the president of Iran for his public broadcasts, but he'll probably become a convert soon

The only way to know if a mic of any price is worth it is to try it out!

You try a cheap re badged mic (SE don't re-badge they make their own) next to a 'more expensive' one ( Brauner, Peluso etc) I think you would justify the expense, but mics can sound so different so what might work magic on one vocal could highlight an awful frequency in another voice.

Go down to a shop or get a demo one sent out to you, these are the (only) ways to really compare.

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www.directresolution.com
home of the DARC audio computer