Hi Paul,

I'm not quite sure where I broke the terms and conditions to such a degree as to justify a personal insult, especially considering I was encouraging readers to take a legal route and take their complaints to the small claims court! Likewise, I even agreed with Max, that Apple's actions do not give customers the legal right to break the law.

None of my comments in either of the Logic 7.2 threads directly encouraged piracy, which I assume is where you believe I have broken the terms and conditions. I was commenting that I find Max's vitriol against those who chose to 'sidestep', in contrast to his relatively restrained comments on Apple's behaviour, distastful in the extreme.

However, I get the impression that you're more interested in making smug insults and then locking the threads to prevent a response, instead of discussing the topic at hand.

What an unpleasant way to behave.

Regarding your comments about the Universal Binary crossgrade - Personally, I couldn't care less about the Universal Binary complaints, although several other posters have made the point that these announcements were not made very clear or even emailed to registered users. However, the overriding fact is that bugs in key features which were used to sell the product (eg, shuffle mode) were not solved until the 7.2 upgrade, requiring not just the purchase of yet another upgrade disk, but also the entire operating system!

The fact that Apple are now refusing to sell this upgrade disk is unfortunate for those people that do not have the time to be drooling over the Apple website every last moment of their waking lives. Quite why you and Max chose to blame these people for Apple's extradinary lack of customer care I don't know, but it seems a bizarre and unkind attitude to have.

These updates should have been free. If Apple wanted to charge for new features then they should have saved them for the new version, but to leave key features that were used to sell the product unfixed, is unethical, if not illegal.

Hi
No personal insult intended - I apologise.
I only know you, and what you stand for, from what you write.
Like Max I too C.S.I. so my abbreviated posting style maybe comes across more aggressively than I mean.

I wasn't concerned about the software arguments - rather your sentences directed directly at Max. This (privately-hosted) website chooses to require its participants to behave appropriately as if it were someone's home-territory (which indeed it is).

Its the true sense of a community of respectful collaborators which defines this site at its best, and keeps people coming back.

There are a lot of places on the web where unrestrained ranting is permissable - this isn't one of them.
And a very good thing too, or the noise becomes louder than the signal.

This is just a thought, and probaly more suited to the off topic forum but isn't it sad that as individuals we are honsent and work within the law but a corporation like apple it seems does not have the same morals as most of the individuals here? Of course its right not to encourage piracy. Its is theft and a crime. But what about the actions of apple in this instance. Are they being complelty legal? I'm not even nearly trying to suggest some idea of do onto them as they do onto you BTW, but it would be nice to think that if you've played fairly i.e. paid for the product that they would play fairly with you.

Geoff

--------------------
right.........

I don't see what was wrong with my comments towards Max either.

His attitude and tone towards Apple customers who have been fleeced is offensive and condescending. Is telling someone tough luck, Apple announced they were discontinuing the upgrades, truly indicative of "a community of respectful collaborators"?

Of course there was a personal insult intended - you called me an idiot! I did not directly insult either you or Max, so why you feel it is okay to up the ante and then criticise me for allegedly "unrestrained ranting" is beyond me.

There's probably enough emotion about this issue that no matter how many threads we lock, the issue won't go away.

So I'm starting a new one, with the blessing of SOS, to get some hard facts (not rants, or nods and winks in favour of illegal actions - OK?).

It may take a day or two - I want to run it past a few people before it sees the light of day.

If we do this right, SOS is in principle willing to go on the campaign trail and ask some questions of Apple (such as if Apple don't want to be paid for the crossgrade would they mind if SOS made it available free as a service to forum members?).

I'm as angry as many people and I actually got the crossgrade (more by luck than judgement, with days to spare). But we have a chance here to speak as a (very significant) user group and - maybe - get common sense to prevail.

Meanwhile, let's all lay off the personal attacks, possibly born of frustration at the whole situation, and also let's lay off advising "sidestepping" solutions while we see if something acceptable to everyone might be achievable.

Watch this space.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (09/08/07 01:15 PM)

Steve, that would be fantastic.

However, I should clarify that what my rants were encouraging was not illegal action. Taking court action under the Sale of Goods Act because a company has sold you products which don't work as claimed is not illegal!

Quote:

---

but it would be nice to think that if you've played fairly i.e. paid for the product that they would play fairly with you.

---

Atari users who paid for Notator who then subsequently moved to a PC and PAID again to upgrade to Logic version one and then PAID again on each major upgrade through to version five played very fairly and just look how they were treated!

It appears Apple are intent on a marketing policy of: when your Mac dies, Logic dies with it.

They might have lowered the cost of their hardware recently, but it appears they are determined to increase revenue by any means they can. They are not in the least bothered about the loss of loyal customers because a new generation will be along to make up any shortfall.

Sorry, but life typically isn’t fair and the future for Logic users blackened the day Apple too control.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

I went Creator/Notator Atari -> Logic Atari.

Logic Atari dumped. I stayed with it and eventually went to Logic PC.

Logic PC dumped. I stayed with it and eventually went to Logic Mac PPC.

Ok, my PPC G4 ain't going to last much longer, so I'll eventually go Logic Mac Intel.

It's been a fun ride so far!

(But the upgrade costs along the way were always reasonable.)

Quote Tim Rainey:

---

It appears Apple are intent on a marketing policy of: when your Mac dies, Logic dies with it.

They might have lowered the cost of their hardware recently, but it appears they are determined to increase revenue by any means they can. They are not in the least bothered about the loss of loyal customers because a new generation will be along to make up any shortfall.

Sorry, but life typically isn’t fair and the future for Logic users blackened the day Apple too control.

---

It also appears they have a policy of selling broken software and then charging for upgrades, which in turn only work if you pay substantially more to upgrade your OS. That's the sort of thing that tends to encourage unclean thoughts.

I don't think the defense of 'life isn't fair' is a particularly logical one in this instance. Life isn't fair therefore people should just put up with any injustices, because well y'know, life isn't fair. Hmmmmm...

If we are forced to pay for 7.2, is it possible to upgrade from 7 to 7.2 (£199) rather than have to fork out the full £699*?

Has anyone done this successfully?

* prices quoted are from Apple store website.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

There's probably enough emotion about this issue that no matter how many threads we lock, the issue won't go away.

So I'm starting a new one, with the blessing of SOS, to get some hard facts (not rants, or nods and winks in favour of illegal actions - OK?).

It may take a day or two - I want to run it past a few people before it sees the light of day.

If we do this right, SOS is in principle willing to go on the campaign trail and ask some questions of Apple (such as if Apple don't want to be paid for the crossgrade would they mind if SOS made it available free as a service to forum members?).

I'm as angry as many people and I actually got the crossgrade (more by luck than judgement, with days to spare). But we have a chance here to speak as a (very significant) user group and - maybe - get common sense to prevail.

Meanwhile, let's all lay off the personal attacks, possibly born of frustration at the whole situation, and also let's lay off advising "sidestepping" solutions while we see if something acceptable to everyone might be achievable.

Watch this space.

---

thats fantastic. It'll be very interesting to see how this end's up.

Geoff

--------------------
right.........

Quote earthdan:

---

If we are forced to pay for 7.2, is it possible to upgrade from 7 to 7.2 (£199) rather than have to fork out the full £699*?

Has anyone done this successfully?

---

AFAIK this works as it relies on your existing XSKey. The upgrade package should be a full copy of Logic, minus the key.

Whether it is worthwhile to pay £199 for something that a couple of weeks ago cost you £29 only you can judge. But it's a lot less than £699!!

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote:

---

I don't think the defense of 'life isn't fair' is a particularly logical one in this instance.

---

It wasn’t a defence. It was a statement of fact and how the situation deteriorated the day Apple took control.

To paraphrase what someone else said in one of the other (now locked) threads; to rely on a single company for your hardware, OS and software is a recipe for disaster.

Historically, monopolies and cartels have always been against the consumer’s interests.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

The XSkey doesn't make any distinction between different versions of Logic 7. In fact, when you buy the 7.1 or 7.2 upgrade disks you don't even need to install version 7.0 or 7.1 first. The upgrade disks are in fact no different from the original disks that come with the full version of Logic, aside from the fact they have upgrade written on the disk. Likewise, when upgrading from 7.0 to 7.1 or 7.2 there is absolutely no XSkey updating to be done like there usually is with major version upgrades.

I don't have the money to confirm this 100%, but I am certain that the main disk which comes with the £199 upgrade is exactly the same as the one provided in the full 7.2 retail package. The only difference is that instead of getting a dongle, you will most likely get some sort of code to upgrade your dongle, since the £199 upgrade is intended for people moving from versions 5 or 6 to version 7. Since this upgrade is made with the intention of upgrading several different versions Logic, it would seem logical (hehe) to assume that the £199 upgrade disk installs the program in full rather than updating an earlier version. Even in the unlikely event that it did look for an installed copy of version 5 or 6, the version 6 installer is available freely (NOT illegally) on the net and will run with a version 7 dongle.

To clarify, this IS NOT ILLEGAL! All I am suggesting is that you downgrade to version 6 first to cover your ass. Version 6 will run with a version 7 dongle. In fact, if you ever need to use the export as version 4.8 feature which was strangely missing from version 7 yet still described in the manual, you will need version 6 anyway!

In short, the XSkey doesn't care what version of 7 you are running and all the version 7 upgrade disks install the full version of Logic from scratch. This also means that if you have multiple upgrades to perform, then there is nothing *technically* to stop you buying just one upgrade disk and installing the upgraded version on more than one system - in much the same way as you can install Logic on multiple systems and share dongles anyway. It's perhaps worth double checking the legality of this last point with Apple however.

The only reason possible for the current situation is that the upgrade is litteraly around the corner... they don't want to sell 7.2 upgrades because they know they will be returned by the customers.

I ordered a 15" iMac lamp two days before the 17" was announced: call me an a**hole, but I returned it unopened to Apple and got a 17" instead. And, since the 17" was actually cheaper, I got a scanner on top
But in the day it took me to recognize I had the right to return the 15" I felt very angry and let down...
I can only imagine buying all the soft synths and space designer... and suddenly they're all included in Logic!

--------------------
Ciao, Francesco, Oslo, Norway

Quote Shedua 511:

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I can only imagine buying all the soft synths and space designer... and suddenly they're all included in Logic!

---

I bought them all as separate items and have the boxes, manuals and invoices to prove it (all except space designer, it wasn’t available in those days)



--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Shedua 511:

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The only reason possible for the current situation is that the upgrade is litteraly around the corner... they don't want to sell 7.2 upgrades because they know they will be returned by the customers.

---

Hi
"Availability: This item will be released on August 20, 2007. Pre-order now! Dispatched from and sold by Amazon.co.uk."
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apple-Logic-Pro-7-2-Mac/dp/B000EHS6GY
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apple-Logic-Upgrade-Platinum-Gold/dp/B000EHS6H8
Allowing for the fact that Amazon can't use up-to-date info or pix before any possible embargo expires...

Re: It wasn’t a defence. It was a statement of fact and how the situation deteriorated the day Apple took control.

To paraphrase what someone else said in one of the other (now locked) threads; to rely on a single company for your hardware, OS and software is a recipe for disaster.

Historically, monopolies and cartels have always been against the consumer’s interests.

*****

It didn't deteriorate. In fact, it got much better at first.

As I pointed out on one of the other threads, the bundling of all the software instruments made Logic Pro terrific value for money. Version 6 was incredibly stable. However, despite some nice new features, it all went wrong with version 7.

My only complaint with Apple is in their failure to adequately fix key features in their free updates and not declare the true cost of their software upfront. If they want to make version 8 compatible with Tiger or Leopard only then all well and good, but make sure version 7 is working first! If they want £899 for a fully working copy of Logic instead of £699 then charge £899 from the start - don't sell a faulty product then charge £200 to for the repairs later!

This has nothing to do with monopolies abusing power or centralised control or anything like that, much as I am sympathetic to those arguments. It has everything to do with Apple selling faulty software and failing to adequately repair it. If Apple had asked Powerbook users to buy new batteries instead of replacing the faulty ones or G5 Imac owners to buy a new power supply instead of offering a replacement program, there would have been an outcry and no doubt legal action. The same should apply to software.

In this light, the phrase 'life isn't fair' seem more like the words of someone that delights in others' misfortune than some kind of universal truth.

I just checked my gear spreadsheet:

ES1, ES2, EXS24, EVOC & Vintage Collection (EVP etc) cost me a total of £536.53.


--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote:

---

It didn't deteriorate. In fact, it got much better at first.

---

Not for Logic PC users!

Quote:

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The same should apply to software.

---

I wholeheartedly agree.

Quote:

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In this light, the phrase 'life isn't fair' seem more like the words of someone that delights in others' misfortune than some kind of universal truth.

---

It would be a warped individual who delighted in his own misfortune.

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Edited by Tim Rainey (09/08/07 03:21 PM)

Quote Tim Rainey:

---

Quote Shedua 511:

---

I can only imagine buying all the soft synths and space designer... and suddenly they're all included in Logic!

---

I bought them all as separate items and have the boxes, manuals and invoices to prove it (all except space designer, it wasn’t available in those days)

---

That must have been horrible, yes, for anyone in that situation, but it's not really relevant now. Just because you had bad luck doesn't magically invalidate present day concerns. It was lame that the upgrade path didn't take into account previous purchases, but the combined cost of a crossgrade Logic Pro and a mini mac, wasn't an awful lot more than the cost of Space Designer alone.

Regardless, version 5.5 runs rock solid on PC. Although there were bugs, the *key features* which were used to sell the program all work as promised. The main complaint is surely not about upgrade costs between major versions, but being forced to pay additional 'repair costs' to get the features working as originally described and the subsequent withdrawal from sale of that upgrade disk.

I would not say that you are delighting in your own misfortune, but it seems perhaps that you taking a little pleasure in seeing those who bought Logic Pro for the first time, after you'd spent all that money on the extra plugins, get treated the same way. Certainly, you don't seem that concerned, otherwise, why would you tell someone that's just got swindled out of £200, 'life isn't fair'?!

Quote:

---

That must have been horrible, yes, for anyone in that situation, but it's not really relevant now.

---

History is always relevant. Isn’t there a famous saying that goes: Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past or something like that. My point is to inform those who may be thinking of giving Apple a second chance… as you will see from the rest of this post, I’ve given them more than a second chance and been royally shafted for my trouble.

Quote:

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Just because you had bad luck doesn't magically invalidate present day concerns.

---

I haven’t said or inferred that present day concerns are invalid; I’m with you 110%!

Quote:

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It was lame that the upgrade path didn't take into account previous purchases,

---

Lame indeed but it is only one more thing in the catalogue of abuses.

Quote:

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Regardless, version 5.5 runs rock solid on PC. Although there were bugs, the *key features* which were used to sell the program all work as promised.

---

I know, I still use it and it does the job admirably and I intend to keep using it for as long as humanly possible. Had Apple not cut all us PC Logic users off, I would be on v7 too.

Quote:

---

The main complaint is surely not about upgrade costs between major versions, but being forced to pay additional 'repair costs' to get the features working as originally described and the subsequent withdrawal from sale of that upgrade disk.

---

You may see one ‘main complaint’, I’ve first hand experience of a stream of complaints. The way Emagic/Apple customers have been treated is disgraceful. Maybe you haven’t been a long time user or perhaps you have forgotten past events…

In the Atari days, when Emagic changed Notator into Logic, one of the conditions to qualify for the special upgrade price was you had to return your Notator dongle for a Logic one.

The new version of Logic was incredibly slow and buggy, rendering it next to useless. The option of getting a faster computer didn’t exist, a Mega 4 was top of the range and because of the new dongle, you couldn’t even return to Notator! Essentially, you had paid your money only to be royally shafted. Rings a familiar bell doesn’t it?

Quote:

---

I would not say that you are delighting in your own misfortune,

---

Phew, that’s a relief

Quote:

---

but it seems perhaps that you taking a little pleasure in seeing those who bought Logic Pro for the first time, after you'd spent all that money on the extra plugins, get treated the same way.

---

You may say that, but I can assure you it isn’t the truth. As you can see, the plugin thing is but one gripe I have with Apple.

Quote:

---

Certainly, you don't seem that concerned, otherwise, why would you tell someone that's just got swindled out of £200, 'life isn't fair'?!

---

I don’t recall seeing Geoff Irwin (the one I responded to) saying he’d been swindled out of £200. If he was swindled by Apple then I wholeheartedly sympathise (as I do with anyone in that invidious position) and apologise for any possible offence; I would have thought it obvious from my stance that no offence was intended.

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Points taken - I'm sorry too, looking back I was being a little unfair. Just the initial attitude from some of the forum mods on the other threads riled me a bit, and put me on the offensive.

Thanks, I’m glad we got that sorted

--------------------
Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Tim Rainey:

---

In the Atari days, when Emagic changed Notator into Logic, one of the conditions to qualify for the special upgrade price was you had to return your Notator dongle for a Logic one.

The new version of Logic was incredibly slow and buggy, rendering it next to useless. The option of getting a faster computer didn’t exist, a Mega 4 was top of the range and because of the new dongle, you couldn’t even return to Notator! Essentially, you had paid your money only to be royally shafted.

---

Really? Let me see. When I upgraded from Creator to Logic, it cost £99 - a very reasonable price back in those days for a major upgrade going to a £500 program. I had to return my Creator dongle.

In return, I got my copy of Logic, *and* a copy of Notator that worked with the Logic dongle. I wouldn't consider that shafted - I could still use what I had before, and I could start to get into Logic at my own pace.

Of course, when I finally upgrade to Logic PC, I had to give back my Atari dongle, so I had no way of using the Atari versions anymore, but hey, my Atari was long overdue for retirement at that point anyway.

I've always found Emagic upgrades to be more than fair, and when expressing that to them, they told me that it was always their intention to make upgrade pricing as good a deal as possible.

Quote:

---

In return, I got my copy of Logic, *and* a copy of Notator that worked with the Logic dongle. I wouldn't consider that shafted - I could still use what I had before, and I could start to get into Logic at my own pace.

---

Very interesting. It sounds like your situation wasn’t exactly the same as mine though.

You wrote “When I upgraded from Creator to Logic”

And then:

“In return, I got my copy of Logic, *and* a copy of Notator that worked with the Logic dongle”

That isn’t how it happened when I upgraded from Notator to Logic (Atari). I didn’t receive a new copy of Notator, only Logic.

It sounds like Emagic responded to the complaints they got (I wrote and complained) and subsequently included a copy of Notator that *did* work on the Logic dongle; the original certainly didn’t.

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Quote Tim Rainey:

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That isn’t how it happened when I upgraded from Notator to Logic (Atari). I didn’t receive a new copy of Notator, only Logic.

It sounds like Emagic responded to the complaints they got (I wrote and complained) and subsequently included a copy of Notator that *did* work on the Logic dongle; the original certainly didn’t.

---

I upgraded to the first Atari version of Notator Logic available (1.5). It came with the Log3 dongle, and a specially modified version of Notator (3.2.1 iirc) that worked with the Log3 instead of the Notator dongle (that was the only difference between 3.2 and 3.2.1).

I thought that Notator version came with every initial Atari upgrade to Logic (although it may not have come with a new non-Upgrade version of Notator Logic).

I don't know why you didn't get it - did you upgrade with that first initial version, or did you upgrade later directly to Logic 2.0 or something? I could see why it was included initially because Notator was still a big product at the time, but by Logic 2 and beyond, Emagic were trying to move past Notator (the developers joked to me that "they hated the bl**dy program!")

(And yes, the big factor for me in upgrading from Creator to Logic was actually getting Notator for cheap, but once I'd seen where Logic was going, especially in the environment, I was sold, moved to Logic and never went back...)

Quote:

---

did you upgrade with that first initial version, or did you upgrade later directly to Logic 2.0 or something?

---

Sorry Desmond, it was a looooong time ago and I can’t remember the version numbers.

I can tell you I’m not making any of this up; I was extremely disappointed at the time.

Add that event to paying for all the instruments AND being dumped by Apple… well, ‘three strikes’ was enough for me!

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Studio: www.kymatasound.com

Well,
what a palaver.
Reading all the above makes me even more glad I stayed with Notator and avoided all this aggro! (and saved a bunch of dosh that I could use to get more synths?)
My STE last crashed in 1996 (and I wasn't using Notator at the time actually), and my hardware setup of 20 synths and 3 drum machines still works fine.
I never got the hang of Logic -in fact on an Atari monitor you can hardly even SEE half the stuff on the screen; it's only when using an SVGA monitor that it actually becomes readable.
As for the Environment page, I once tried setting up an environment for my setup and gave up after three days of tying to make it work. I'm obviously missing something as others are quite happy with the endless tweaking of it all, but for me, having to do all that gets in the way of music making. Logic is a powerful program, obviously --as sophisticated as using the Space Shuttle to go shopping to Sainsburys in. Notator by comparison is your nice little used Morris Minor, but it does the job in a very easy and intuitive way. After all, with only three edit screens what could be simpler?
(Mind you, the score fonts and printer combinations are still a lottery, but there's always something...)


I'll get me coat and sod off back to the Atari forum.......


Dave.


--------------------
Lots of Ataris which keep on going, 12 Kurzweil 1000 modules, a bunch of hardware synths. Still recording to tape -the old ways are best.....

Currently unavailable. We don't know when or if this item will be back in stock.

When Apple started the transition to Intel there was quite a lot of concern from 'pro app' users that they would get shafted on the 'Universal Binary' updates. Consequently IIRC they were all free downloads - except Logic, which had a nominal fee.

The 'nominal fee' was justified by the inclusion of a few bug-fixes, a couple of new features, and a few GB of AppleLoops - which were the excuse given that the update could not be available as a download.

A transition to Intel remains as much of an upheaval now for those still on PPC as it was when the Intel Mac's first appeared - it's just that it's only now viable for those who had been waiting for Universal versions of certain plugs or other ancillary software.

If there's a 'class action' lawsuit - as our Brothers in Arms call it - then undouobtedly Apple will release the UB 'crossgrade' as a free download, or make the 7.2 DVD available again.

It's simply that if they do it now, rather than later, they'll avoid making new enemies and a lot of bad feeling along the way. (I note that all audio forums including Apple's own now carry at least one thread about the missing 7.2 update.)

Come on Apple. Do the right thing.

Quote blueintheface:

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...IIRC they were all free downloads - except Logic, which had a nominal fee....

---

Hi
No, all Apple's Pro Apps required a payment for the crossgrade - for Final Cut Studio it was $69/£39. All the cross-grade offers had an expiry date from the outset, although the dates were pushed back several times.

Quote Shedua 511:

---

The only reason possible for the current situation is that the upgrade is litteraly around the corner... they don't want to sell 7.2 upgrades because they know they will be returned by the customers.

---

Thats what happened in March with FCS - an upgrade was unavailable for several weeks, then FCS 2 shipped.

Quote PaulD:

---

"Availability: This item will be released on August 20, 2007. Pre-order now! Dispatched from and sold by Amazon.co.uk."
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apple-Logic-Upgrade-Platinum-Gold/dp/B000EHS6H8

---

Hang on in there...

Quote David Etheridge:

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Logic is a powerful program, obviously --as sophisticated as using the Space Shuttle to go shopping to Sainsburys in.

---

Quote PaulD:

---

Hang on in there...

---

What on earth for?

Have you ever, ever previously heard of a software house closing down the upgrade path to the current version from the previous version (with NO further upgrade announced or in sight)? When they must know millions of users are using their previous, by no means obsolete, hardware (like 2006 vintage G5s etc)?

I am, quite seriously, looking at ProTools and have spent most of the last week doing that.

I no longer trust Apple as a business partner.

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

What actually is the situation? Are there plenty of beta testers who know something new is around the corner, but can't say because of NDAs..? And Apple won't say anything either because they are, well, Apple? Is that it?

Quote Tui:

---

What actually is the situation?

---

The $64,000 question.

I don't suppose it ever occurs to Apple that there might be some mileage in communicating with their customers (other than spam emails trying to sell me stuff I don't want)?

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

---

What on earth for?

Have you ever, ever previously heard of a software house closing down the upgrade path to the current version from the previous version (with NO further upgrade announced or in sight)? When they must know millions of users are using their previous, by no means obsolete, hardware (like 2006 vintage G5s etc)?

I am, quite seriously, looking at ProTools and have spent most of the last week doing that.

I no longer trust Apple as a business partner.

---

If you don't like it, just sell it and get something else . I think that was your advice to me the other week when you said you were a happy Logic user of 10 years. You seem to have changed your stance on Apple since then. Funny.
Vinny.

--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/vinnyburns

Quote Steve Hill:

---

Quote PaulD:

---

Hang on in there...

---

What on earth for?
Have you ever, ever previously heard of a software house closing down the upgrade path to the current version from the previous version (with NO further upgrade announced or in sight)?

---

Hi
Sigh...
Yes. In March this year.
As I wrote.

Quote Steve Hill:

---

I am, quite seriously, looking at ProTools and have spent most of the last week doing that.
I no longer trust Apple as a business partner.

---

Sigh. Again...
Why is it that the music creation world seem to live in their own little cocooned world?
Ootchi coochi coo!
Pram toys out of throw don't your. (Rearrange as neccessary)
Daddy might be a little while giving you them back

Since the daddy running Apple is a autocratic whimsicical seemingly-not-so-mildly-autistic visionary genius (likewise M$ - without the visionary bit), and we live with - and benefit from - that, my guess is that its best, as I said, to 'hang on in'.

But Apple's business and marketing strategy is fairly consistently and single-mindedly straightforward.
And at this moment with Logic is repeating exactly the same upgrade scenario as Apple has used in the past. Which I guess is down to the reason that Shedua 511 posted - it may help keep the retail channel clear of returned recently-bought software packages that the purchaser is upset to have bought just before a major upgrade.

At the moment the Crossgrade offer, date-limited as always offered, has ended.
The upgrade to the UB version of Logic 7.2 is available at £199.

But Amazon.co.uk are telling us all in a coded way 'you don't want to do that'...
Since they will be under an NDA about upgrade developments

As to Pro Tools, RedBlad The Impaler has written in the MRT forum on Avid/Digidesign's recent financial performance:
"With the stock price having recently hit new, record lows and with the main focus of the company on HDTV development, do not expect too much innovation to come from ProTools in the near future..."
To quote from my reply, pointing out that Avid is yet again laying off (129) staff, and changing their strategic management:
...outgoing Avid CEO David Krall said they were focusing on “storage, asset management and services...”

Your call.
Same as it ever is...

Edited by PaulD (14/08/07 08:42 AM)

I'm not only toy throwing. I have a spare G5 computer and several acoustically treated rooms here, plus some spare monitors, outboard etc.

With another set of software I could run (and sell...) two rooms at once, one being a mix/edit suite.

What would have been a knee-jerk "default to Logic" decision a few weeks ago is no longer so open and shut. I already have several clients who prefer PT (we hire in rigs); it will do me personally no harm to extend my expertise with another DAW package, and I will be slightly less dependent on Apple and Mr Jobs' semi-autistic business practices in future.

But Logic will stay in our studios (probably the proposed edit room rather than for live tracking). I'm just less inclined to buy a second copy right now.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...


Edited by Steve Hill (14/08/07 07:47 PM)

Quote Steve Hill:

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Quote PaulD:

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Hang on in there...

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What on earth for?

Have you ever, ever previously heard of a software house closing down the upgrade path to the current version from the previous version (with NO further upgrade announced or in sight)? When they must know millions of users are using their previous, by no means obsolete, hardware (like 2006 vintage G5s etc)?

I am, quite seriously, looking at ProTools and have spent most of the last week doing that.

I no longer trust Apple as a business partner.

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Sorry Steve But.

1) Apple are NOT your business partner..... Nor are Honda, or Audient, or Parker , ...... nor would any of them consider you as theirs.

2) 7.2 has been out for over 12 months, and ALL new Macs have been intel for over 12 months.

Quote:

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June 6, 2005: Apple announces its plans to switch to Intel processors at the Worldwide Developer Conference.

January 10, 2006: Jobs announces the first two computers in this series, the 15" MacBook Pro and a iMac Core Duo line, both using an Intel Core Duo chip.

February 28, 2006: Jobs announces that the Mac mini now also comes with an Intel Core chip, in either the Solo or Duo varieties.

April 5, 2006: Apple announces the release of Boot Camp which will allow users of Intel based Macs to run Windows XP.

April 24, 2006: Apple announces the 17" MacBook Pro, replacing the 17" PowerBook.

April 27, 2006: Intel announces that processors with the Intel Core microarchitecture would be released months sooner than previously thought.

May 16, 2006: Apple announces the 13" MacBook, replacing both the iBook line and the 12" PowerBook.
June 26, 2006: Intel announces the Xeon 5100 series server/workstation CPU.

July 5, 2006: Apple announces a special educational configuration of the iMac, replacing the old G4 eMac.

August 7, 2006: "Transition Complete" - Apple announces the Intel-based Mac Pro, replacing the Power Mac G5, and Xserve, replacing the Xserve G5, at the Worldwide Developers Conference; both use the Xeon 5100 series ("Woodcrest") processors.

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where is it written that they have ANY obligation to offer crossgrade or upgrade at all , never mind more than 12 months after release of the supercedent product.


the information regarding the time limits was posted clearly..... even I managed to read it... when they originally released it, and as an addendum at each renewal...

3 )

as to where else such things happen? everywhere , surely you're NOT that naive??

Quark, Adobe, IBM, Microsoft , the list could go on ad infinitum

a time limited offer is just exactly that... TIME LIMITED




4) in some of your previous diatribes you've used spurious example cases... like the "poor user who bought logic 7.1 only 3 months ago" scenario

Since Logic 7.2 has been the only version shipping from Apple for more than 12 months... that case example cannot exist.... if someone DID buy such a thing from a reseller, then they have a case to argue with the retailer .... it's hardly Apple's fault... similar flaws are contained within ALL the example arguments I've read that you've uttered.


and what on EARTH makes you think Dodgydesign& Protools are any better...... ??? errrr documented case history suggests otherwise old bean...... just talk to any Protools long term owner about Digi's methods of locking them in to a permanent upgrade cycle to stay remotely current... or even supported......


As 'the duke" would say...

"get off yer high horse, and drink yer milk".

5) " you cannot expect people to read all the information, or check on the website for things"

well if they don;t how in hell are they ever going to know anything??

it's like expecting people to read the frigging manual....

if people want to behave irrationally and remain ignorant of information that might be highly relevant to them.... then that's their own damn fault.

and if you sign up for email notification...... which you have to do.... they aren't supposed to send you junk mail remember.... AND you ACTUALLY read them.... then you'll have seen the notes regarding this offer, and it's expiry dates.



what do you want.... an apple rep to go and hunt down and knock on the door of every Logic user, in person, to remind them individually that they might miss out on the offer if they don't catch it by the end date??

Get real.

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if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Edited by Max! (14/08/07 11:12 PM)

Quote Max!:

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" you cannot expect people to read all the information, or check on the website for things"

well if they don;t how in hell are they ever going to know anything??

it's like expecting people to read the frigging manual....

if people want to behave irrationally and remain ignorant of information that might be highly relevant to them.... then that's their own damn fault.

and if you sign up for email notification...... which you have to do.... they aren't supposed to send you junk mail remember.... AND you ACTUALLY read them.... then you'll have seen the notes regarding this offer, and it's expiry dates.

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Max, I think you must live a totally different tech-oriented existance to most musicians out there.

I work full time as a tv composer and I consider myself very well up on all things techy. My studio has 3 puters running probably 100 different applications on both Mac and PC platforms, ranging from Logic to plug-ins, DVD creation, website creation, office stuff, you name it. I compose, play various acoustic instruments, run a business, fix sessions, do all the showreel dvd production, have to keep up on video technology, read manuals (yes!), you name it, and I am not untypical.

I do not have time to be checking Apple's f***ing website which offers very little of interest most of the time. Neither do I receive emails from Apple, and I most certainly have registered a legit copy....