Hello all, i normally post in the live sound forum, but i feel this is more suitable for here.

A few months ago i was front of house engineer for a medium sized (300 people) gig at my local theatre. I knew the band quite well and was paid a small amount to provide PA and to mix the night for the headliners along with 2 other small bands.
The 2 smaller bands won a battle of the bands competition to play support and part of their prize was to receive a recording of their performance, which i made on a zoom H4 and handed to them on cd. No problems with the support bands. They are a pair of school bands just starting out and may end up using my cd for demo's at local pubs and clubs.
My issue stands with the headline band, who know i made a recording and are now asking for a copy of their section of the gig. This band are a slightly larger affair. I have a feeling the tracks, or some of them, will find their way on to the dvd of the gig they are making (recorded on standard video cameras with my audio over-dubbed) and i have a feeling the dvd may end up being sold to fans. Don't get me wrong, this is no big name band, but i can forsee a couple of hundred copies being made.

I am unsure who "owns" the recording i made. The artists, or me the recording engineer? They will make a small amount of revenue out of my recording and it's not something i agreed to do when i signed up to do the gig, it's an extra. If the recording is not legally mine, i will happily give them a copy but might ask that my name be included on the credits/sleeve. I won't begrudge a local group a recording. If however it is mine, how should i protect it? That is, how can i let them use it without me being taken for a walk in the park? I don't want my hard work on the night to be used by them to make money without me getting a little reward from it, even if it is just a note in the credits.

What should i write on the cd i give them to claim ownership? Is there a going rate for this kind of thing? I really don't know the intricasies.

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Chris
Radio Communications and Electronics Engineer within the Aviation Industry - plays in the theatre when he has the time!

Since by your own admission they are unlikely to sell more than a couple of hundred copies, why do you care?
I would approach it as a nice litte gesture but at the same time explain to them that IF they should suddenly become huge and the DVD starts selling in the millions you would expect some remuneration.
Why don`t you suggest a small one-off payment on the basis that a bird in the hand is worth whatever it is....
Now if you seriously think there is an imminent possibility that the band will go huge, talk to a show biz lawyer, but I suspect that the price of a good night out would be adequate compensation.

Did you get anything for the CD`s you did for the support band & if not, why were you not pressing for paymeny for that part of the deal from the contest organisers?

This has all the hallmarks of the usual loose contractual B-S that generally surrounds such competitions. I bet the bloke or blokes who organised it got what THEY wanted out of it.

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

The gig was organised by the headline band. I believe they were after a sellout and didn't fancy their chances alone, so they got 2 school bands to bring all their mates! It also meant they didn't have to split the takings because the school bands had "won" the right to perform there. A little underhand in my book, and my own band certainly wouldn't have performed under those terms a conditions. I had agreed to make their recordings as part of my fee and it was only an ambient recording.
The headline band are to all intents and purposes, friends of mine. I have worked with them several times and links to one or two of the band go back to the ancient days of secondary school! Hence i'm keen not to get a lawyer involved, but nevertheless, they are a good band with a good following. I doubt they'll ever go to the chart but it was the offchance that i wanted to protect against. Perhaps allowing them to use the recording up to a certain number of copies and then asking for a payment after that? Say 500?
I'm not after making money particularly from them, but i don't want them making money for themselves with my work without a little recognition.

I'll sit and have a word with them next time we meet.

Cheers

Edited by cedd (26/12/07 11:30 AM)

Quote cedd:

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I had agreed to make their recordings as part of my fee

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As you say here, you have already been paid for the recording. I don't understand what else you are expecting to be paid for in this situation? I don't think that you own any mechanical or intellectual rights in the recording,

Erol

You are just the sound guy. You own nothing.

In fact, they own all the rights to the recording, whether thay paid for it or not. Even if they do not know of its existence, they still own all the rights.

What's the matter with you? These people are supposed to be friends and here you are, discussing how to go behind their backs.

My advice to the band would be to keep as far away from hangers-on like you as possible. They are not yet successful and you are thinking already how to milk them for what is rightfully thier property.

Quote ezza:

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Quote cedd:

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I had agreed to make their recordings as part of my fee

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As you say here, you have already been paid for the recording. I don't understand what else you are expecting to be paid for in this situation? I don't think that you own any mechanical or intellectual rights in the recording,

Erol

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Ok, I just re-read your post. You agreed to do the recording of the support bands, not the headliners.

However, I still don't see that you own anything here. You can't do anything with the recording without their permission after all.

You should ask for an additional fee for the recording.

Erol

Aha! I just noticed you are from leeds!
I now understand where you are coming from with this thread, so to speak
Only time I ever played there was at the F club on the Pere Ubu tour in the late seventies. Some bar steward smashed my car window and stole a maroon and taupe striped fun fur jacket I had left in there.
From this I deduced that the typical population of Leeds is not only theiving toerags, but they are also color blind and have no dress sense.

Disgruntled??? I cant even remember the last time I SAW my gruntle!!

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Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Ezza answered my question perfectly! They own the recording. It's something that, not being from a recording background, i wasn't sure of ; whom the ownership of a recording belonged to, the artist or the recording engineer.
You may also notice i'm not entirely happy with the situation with this band - the support acts "winning" the chance to play and bringing lots of fans to fill the coffers of the headliners. It took a lot of persuading to be paid at all for my services and when i was, it hardly paid the petrol! My fault for saying yes i suppose!
Friends, yes, trusted friends, nope!

I would still like to claim "ownership" in that i would like my name to be published on material using the recording i made. Is this the kind of thing that people request when making recordings of this type?

As for being from Leeds, have you tried Bradford?

Let's be clear what your are saying when you say "recordings of this type".

You seem to have a bootleg.

You were paid to record the two support acts as part of their "prize" but you also recorded the headliners, without any specific agreement from them to do so. The only possible use you can make of that recording is what they are prepared to consent to. This should have been agreed with them up front.

The ideal time to discuss this would have been 5 minutes before they went on stage, when you could have offered to leave the tape running for a small fee.

As it is, you have recording (which you cannot use without consent) and they have - apparently - a wish to use it. There would seem to be some basis for a negotiated deal here.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Just to clear up, the recording of the final band was only made because the position of the recorder did not allow me to get to it once the audience were in (shelf on the front of the balcony), so i set it running and left it. I see what you're saying about no strictly speaking having permission to record the band, but it was more a case of circumstance than a decision by me to do so. I certainly have no desire or wish to do anything with the recording now, indeed until the bass player asked me if i'd by chance left the recorder running for them to have a copy, it was going to get deleted to free up disk space.

What stuck in my mind though was, when they made their album, they paid the studio for the work done. In effect i'm handing that over to them for free for a "live in concert album". Something that they will earn money from and which i won't see. I at least want a little recognition for being there.

As it happens, i met up with half the band tonight and gave them the cd's for the two support bands (haven't finished chopping up their set which was all recorded as one track) and we spoke about this. They have agreed for my name to go on the dvd credits as sound engineer. They asked if i wanted to be down as recording engineer as well, but it was only an ambient recording and it's just being greedy being in the credits twice!
I'm pretty happy with this arrangement on the whole, sound engineering is not my day job and as the posts above have cleared up, whilst i made the recording, the artistic ownership is still theirs.
I will be working with them again and will hopefully have a 24 track recorder with me. I'll feel a little happier charging a small amount extra for a recording if i have to mix down afterwards as well.

When they asked if there was a chance you left the recorder running, why didn't you say,

'Yes, but if you want a copy it'll cost £XXX, if you don't want to pay, I'll delete it'?

or

arrange to be credited at least, e.g. an ad for your studio printed on the CD case or similar.

It seems a bit daft to give away what could be £100 (don't know the length of sets you did, but I'd charge £50 per 1/2 hour set for ambient recording) without the possibility of further work coming from the job.

But at least they were decent and gave you credit on the album

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Disclaimer: Advice is taken at your own risk.