Long story short, I want to avoid a monitor wedge from the side (or behind) my drumkit and use an in ear monitoring system instead. Rather than worry about aux send mixes, etc, I just want to plug the cable going to the wedge into my IEM and then the process is the same for the club sound guy and myself. We adjust various levels until my mix is ok. Problem is, the IEM I want to use (Shure 200,400,600 systems) only work with line level inputs. Is it even possible to use an IEM in this fashion? One user suggested I purchase some kind of direct box to convert the signal from the speaker cable into a line level. I'm not that savvy to know, any advice on what to do? Thanks for your time.

I'd be very wary of trying to work like that.

All you should need to do is take his monitor feed from before it hits the amp - that's line level and will do the job perfectly. There will be no difference between how things work for the engineer then.

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There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies

A DI box (and a suitable adapter lead if needed) will do the job...just make sure the DI box can take the required speaker levels (most can).

However surely a splitter at the desk end would be better.

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Cheers, Ben Gummery, Techie

Edited by lightman (15/01/08 09:31 AM)

In Ear Monitor systems are normally wireless. The normal configurationn is for the appropriate monitor mix from the console to feed the IEM transmitter (at normnal line level). That signal is then transmitted through the ether and is picked up by the musician's IEM receiver, and passed to his or her earphones.

So although it is possible to bodge an attenuation system to convert from a speaker level signal to a line level, it is utterly pointless and counter-productive. Why go through a power amp (and all the distortions that go with it), just to have to remove the additional gain to feed the IEM transmitter?

All you need to do is disconnect the monitor mix output that normally feeds the drum wedge amp (or active wedge monitor), and plug it into the IEM transmitter instead.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Hmm...he's a drummer...they tend to use wired IEM.

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Cheers, Ben Gummery, Techie

At all the venues we play, taking the cable out of the monitor wedge and plugging it into "something" then my IEM is the ideal way to go. Sounds like I need a direct box, any idea which one? And yes, I'll be using a wired IEM. Thanks so much for the comments!

Personally I'd just ring ahead....from an engineers point of view i'd much rather run an xlr cable with a DI on the end of it out to you, rather than putting a wedge out and then you turning up saying 'oh, actually i don't want that'.

Just a thought

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Cheers, Ben Gummery, Techie

Ya know, I gotta go with Hugh on this, this seems like a BAD idea. While it is certainly possible to attenuate a signal to line level, and a passive DI does attenuate, and might even have a pad switch, it seems to easy to have this get screwed up on accident, and when talking about a speaker level signal that might possibly get direct access to a head(That hopefully still has a working brain in it) if something screws up, this seems like an utterly bad idea.

I will STRONGLY recommend you look at either splitting the signal going into the amp, or repatching as needed. If you are playing venues where they can't get you a monitor feed, then they need better equipment for you to play them.

Seablade

Quote seablade:

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If you are playing venues where they can't get you a monitor feed, then they need better equipment for you to play them.

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If you're playing venues where they can't get you a line level monitor feed, they need a better engineer! I can't think of any circumstances where that would be a difficult thing to do.
(OK, perhaps multipole connectors & hard-wired amps would make life trickier but even so.)

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There's nothing we can't face... Except for bunnies

Quote Sheriton:

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Quote seablade:

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If you are playing venues where they can't get you a monitor feed, then they need better equipment for you to play them.

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If you're playing venues where they can't get you a line level monitor feed, they need a better engineer! I can't think of any circumstances where that would be a difficult thing to do.
(OK, perhaps multipole connectors & hard-wired amps would make life trickier but even so.)

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I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to my sleep deprived mind and say they are limited by equipment. Whether that is true or not is something else.

Seablade

Granted, I agree direct line from FOH line level to the IEM is the way to go, but I also want to have all bases covered incase there is no aux/sends/mixes available. The entire band (5 of us) are looking into IEM's. So as a last resort, hooking it up via speaker level/direct box might be the way to go and hopefully should cover any situation that might arise. So, is there a particular direct box I would need? Can someone recommend one? Thanks for the comments!

Really wouldn't advise this, you'd be better off bringing some leads to hook into the feed that is going to the monitors amp (if there is a monitor, their will be a feed!) Hooking into the speaker feed is really not something you'd ever need to do.

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Cheers, Ben Gummery, Techie

Edited by lightman (15/01/08 07:37 PM)

Having worked in crap venues as an in-house engineer in the past, with a budget of pence rather than pound, saying a venue needs better gear isn't really an issue. Most venues need better equipment at some point along the signal chain. Dosh is usually entirely dependent upon owner, promoter, venue usage and general understanding into what is involved in providing sound reinforcement.

However there are four simple things you can carry to help make a stressed, under-paid, overworked in-house engineer happier and achieve what you're asking.

Carry male->male & female->female gender benders to convert a multicore channel into a return.
Carry Y-split xlr to xlr (both sexes) to split a mix (you'll have to share a mix with another band member) if there aren't enough aux sends, or to split your I.E.M from wedge send.
Carry Y-split jack to jack (with one end terminating in a socket) to do as above.
Extra long xlr(s) to run from stage box to drums.

That should be enough to fix any issues. If you have all this, and say to engineer you'll sort it out just ask to be pointed in the right direction of stage box, most decent engineer's will be more than happy to help. Its when you turn up without anything and expect the moon on a stick..that's when people get annoyed.

Very much like a keyboard I had over the weekend. Tech spec requested 10 DI's for five stereo keyboards (plus 10 other for guitars, bass's and samplers). Tech spec failed to mention that all the keyboards DI's required 'link' output to feed his desk and monitors. Then threw a totally hissy fit when I said I had 10 (matched) DI's but only 6 had 'link' outputs and that their tech spec fails to mention 'link' information. I scratched around and swapped a few of the other DI's on tech spec and used some y-splits to make it work but man.. I could have hit him! Band touring on 30 date theatre tour, requiring 20 DI's and not supplying a single one, with in-correct tech spec (created by band)??? Madness[/rant]

There is no point at all in doing it as you describe.

Best is to split the foldback feed from the mixer - one going to the amplifier that drives the wedges and the other to the line input of the IEM transmitter.

Simple and safe.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

I use IEMs in a vaguely similar situation.

I have a Rolls PM351 personal mixer into which I have mic vocal mic, my instrument and a mix from FoH, which needs to feed an IEM system. The PM351 has a handy Thru function that allows the mic and instrument signals to be sent to FoH on XLRs.
The problem is that it only has headphone outputs.
There is no line level output on the unit.

I take the output from the Rolls into a 20dB attenuator (Studiospares) and from there into a Garwood IDS. It works, although it is still possible to overload the input on the IDS if I'm not careful.
I am happy doing this because there is no physical connection between the amplifier and my ears.

I would not advocate tapping a wedge speaker signal. That's about 100v going through those cables. Hooking that up to your head, even with attenuators is definately not a good idea.

Saying that, if anyone knows of a device that can do what the PM351 can, but has line level outputs, I'd be grateful for any pointers...

Fwiw, I've developed a monitoring system for my latest band that involves them all using the PM351.
I take a stereo feed from the FoH desk and send it to the stage into a splitter/distributor. That gives the 5 band members a basic mix to work on.
The band then use their PM351s to mix themselves against the FoH mix. As 99% of the time requests about monitoring are 'more me', this enables them to do it themselves.

This system is reliant on being able to get a 2 channel feed from FoH. By using XLR-jack adaptors and gender changers where necessary, I have't come across a venue yet that hasn't been able to cater for this.

Stu.

Quote E-Meist:

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Very much like a keyboard I had over the weekend. Tech spec requested 10 DI's for five stereo keyboards (plus 10 other for guitars, bass's and samplers). Tech spec failed to mention that all the keyboards DI's required 'link' output to feed his desk and monitors. Then threw a totally hissy fit when I said I had 10 (matched) DI's but only 6 had 'link' outputs and that their tech spec fails to mention 'link' information. I scratched around and swapped a few of the other DI's on tech spec and used some y-splits to make it work but man.. I could have hit him! Band touring on 30 date theatre tour, requiring 20 DI's and not supplying a single one, with in-correct tech spec (created by band)??? Madness[/rant]

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were you using one of the KT DI-racks? i've had that problem before, the last four don't have link-outs.

was he rude to you? i would have walked away for 5-mins to let him calm down, then come back and sorted it. it seems you can never carry enough y-splits and other adapter leads

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planet nine
lincoln, uk.

As a drummer, for what it's worth, I've never had a problem asking for a line-level aux to feed my headphones (now wired IEMs).

As lightman suggests, worth mentioning in advance. As E-Meist suggests, bringing some of the required bits seems sensible.

I find it scarcely credible, in this day and age, that the "default" setup is still a wedge loud enough to be heard over the drums (which themselves are pretty darn loud). Either the drummer is damaging his/her hearing, or, has some sort of hearing protection inwhich case having the powerful wedge seems kinda daft, to me...