Over the past few months from the many posts that I've now read, I'm slowly starting to wonder - is there an element of brand snobbery in the music fraternity...?

I'm sure some pieces of kit are genuinely better than others in terms of the quality of the components, build and engineering quality. Yet I see quite a bit of rigidity from some folk with regard to what brands they will and won't touch. Other people seem to be a bit more open minded and not so brand-focussed...they seem to appreciate or slate a product regardless of the manufacturer...

Instinctively I find myself respecting the latter group of people more...

For instance, if tube microphones as a breed are so specific re: suiting some voices and not others, how come many people are so ready to slag off an SE, a Rode or a MXL tube mic...whilst praising to the heavens anything by Gefell or Neumann...? Do the latter two sound great on anybody's voice...? (Seems unlikely - since if a tube mic by definition is idiosyncratic, sometimes the cheapest piece of cr-p may just be the one that suits your voice).

There again in guitar magazines you read of a guitarist's fabulous, special tone and how its due to his specific amplfier and speaker combination. Yet ultimately how come the punter who bought the record can hear that fabulous tone on his hi-fi through whatever speakers he has at home...!!!?

The crowning idiocy was a recent comparative group test in a prominent guitar magazine comparing the sounds through eight different guitar cables...

Are any of these comparisons double-blinded, randomised controlled trials, in which player / singer / listener have to objectively evaluate equipment whilst having no idea what they're playing, singing into or listening to?

They'd be thrown in the bin by any self-respecting scientific journal.

Regards

Jay

Edited by Jay Menon (25/01/08 10:37 PM)

Quote Jay Menon:

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Over the past few months from the many posts that I've now read, I'm slowly starting to wonder - is there an element of brand snobbery in the music fraternity...?

I'm sure some pieces of kit are genuinely better than others in terms of the quality of the components, build and engineering quality. Yet I see quite a bit of rigidity from some folk with regard to what brands they will and won't touch. Other people seem to be a bit more open minded and not so brand-focussed...they seem to appreciate or slate a product regardless of the manufacturer...

Instinctively I find myself respecting the latter group of people more...

For instance, if tube microphones as a breed are so specific re: suiting some voices and not others, how come many people are so ready to slag off an SE, a Rode or a MXL tube mic...whilst praising to the heavens anything by Gefell or Neumann...? Do the latter two sound great on anybody's voice...? (Seems unlikely - since if a tube mic by definition is idiosyncratic, sometimes the cheapest piece of cr-p may just be the one that suits your voice).

There again in guitar magazines you read of a guitarist's fabulous, special tone and how its due to his specific amplfier and speaker combination. Yet ultimately how come the punter who bought the record can hear that fabulous tone on his hi-fi through whatever speakers he has at home...!!!?

The crowning idiocy was a recent comparative group test in a prominent guitar magazine comparing the sounds through eight different guitar cables...

Are any of these comparisons double-blinded, randomised controlled trials, in which player / singer / listener have to objectively evaluate equipment whilst having no idea what they're playing, singing into or listening to?

They'd be thrown in the bin by any self-respecting scientific journal.

Regards

Jay

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Yes there are mike test threads on here and there is a difference. Unfortunately each £ you spend brings less of a return.

Also even "good" manufacturers make mistakes!

Now there's a good guy...!

There is some brand snobbery, but it is there for a reason.

If I walk into a random gig, and see a pair of (say) KM 84 up as drum overheads, it provides an instant hint that the bits of kit I cannot see are probably reasonable, and that I can afford to turn the gear paranoia down just a notch or two.

Similarly, seeing say 'B' or no name china mics up (even if they sound perfectly acceptable), does not provide that instant 'The gear is probably reasonable' hint.

Nobody has time to listen to everything, but at any given price point there are 'go to' companies, that are sort of standard in that market segment.

Market standards play a surprisingly big part, in the live world you often get something nice turned down in favour of an SM58 because the singer is familiar and comfortable with it (And given they perform best when comfortable, going with the 58 is a reasonable choice, even when a '105 would be otherwise perfect).

I once had a engineer turn his nose up at a perfectly good Cadac desk because it was not a Soundcraft! It cuts both ways.

Regards, Dan.

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Audiophiles use phono leads because they are unbalanced people!

Edited by dmills (25/01/08 11:47 PM)

This is the same in any market. The power of the brand is often bewildering, but it's easier. If you simplify something into x brand is good, y brand is not, making decisions is not as hard. Obviously, it is not that simple. IMO Marshall's made a handful of good amp series and a truckload of crap ones - they can trade on the name, paint them up real pretty and have no problem selling.

Some people sound like live advertisements when such and such name brand gear comes up in conversation. I 'tried out' a rhythm section with a host of pricey gear who would say things like "feel free to plug into the Marshall stack" and "we got 6 or 7 SM57s and recorded the drum kit." It was as if they didn't have minds (or ears) of their own.

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gentle robot - chapel hill rock band

Tell you what, I'd begrudge paying £2k for a mic only for the results to get ripped to iPod where the (diminishing returns notwithstanding) quality of the mic is going to get mashed anyway.

Mustard mitt I also get a little confused about "character"... isn't that what we've got EQ for?

I've got a Neumann - and I've also got the sE clone of it. There's nowhere near the sixfold improvement over the cone the Neumann's price would suggest. Diminishing returns indeed.

So, snobbery - probably.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote hifistud2:

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... isn't that what we've got EQ for?

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I think the simplest and least disingenuous debunking of this question would be the acronym GIGO.

What's GIGO?

A polite way of saying SISO ?!

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Mac Pro 2.66 6GB RAM, Logic Pro, Ableton Live, RME FF800, Adam A7's

Garbage In, Garbage Out. Photoshop can make your family pictures brighter and more colorful, but it won't make your wife look like a supermodel.

Quote hifistud2:

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I've got a Neumann - and I've also got the sE clone of it. There's nowhere near the sixfold improvement over the cone the Neumann's price would suggest. Diminishing returns indeed.

So, snobbery - probably.

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This is true in any walk of life. Is an Aston Vanquish twice as good as a Jag XKR? Is a handbuilt Italian kitchen five times as good as a well put together job from Wickes?

Realistically, no, of course not -- but there is a quality difference, and for many people, once you appreciate that difference, you find it easier to justify payuing the price tag, simply because nothing else can match it, and thus give as much pleasure.

It is diminishing returns, absolutely. But I don't think it is snobbery -- that implies buying just because you can, rather than because you can appreciate the difference.

Hugh

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Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Well said.

It's not so much a BRAND issue as a reputation surrounding certain mics...for example lets take Neumann who must the be the focus of this: The U47 is as revered as the TLM103 is maligned...(I'm not saying I think the TLM103 is bad...it just gets a lot of stick). Both are Neumann.

The fact of it is this: There are lots of really impressive mics out there for next to nothing but they don't compete with the very best when you're actually making records for a living. It's not snobbery...It's experience. You learn how a certain sound is achieved and when you're competing against other people using those mics you need to use them too. Luckily they can be rented for a reasonable outlay.

J

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www.jackruston.com

I can argue this both ways. My Neumann KM84s sound better (if a bit noisier) than my KM184s. They also cost more, used and 25 years old, than the 184s. The reason the market puts that premium on them is not just snobbery: it is because lots of people think they sound better. It may only be a few percentage points better (if such things are measurable in those terms), but as Jack says if you're competing for the next professional gig that could make all the difference.

That said, I read an article this week in which one of the sound guys on a forthcoming blockbuster movie was extolling the virtues of the Rode NT1a - an £85 mic - for Foley work. I guess he's probably been round the block a few times and has tried many other mics. It's a case of what works. Like most studios, I'm unabashed about having a good few SM57s kicking around because you just know that in certain situations it'll sound good and you can't go wrong with it.

Equally, I've never known anyone who has used, say, a real U47 in anger who hasn't, if they are being honest, come away saying "OK, now I understand".

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Thanks Jay for starting a very interesting thread.

Back in the '70s life was a lot simpler. You either went with the established 'big names' that are still around now or you had the absolutely rubbish domestic stuff designed for use with the cassette and open-reel machines of the day. So I bought AKG, Sennheiser and Beyer.

About 10 years ago things got more complicated with the introduction of the Chinese factor. Did you stick with the big names - and bigger prices - or see what some of this new stuff was like? Some of the engineers and musicians of my vintage decided to see what these new brands might be like and got some pleasant surprises. Several of my associates of a similar vintage to me are now quite pragmatic in our choices of gear - if it sounds right and doesn't fall apart after 5 minutes then it is right. That means we sometimes DO buy gear from a German company beginning with 'B' and similar companies and sometimes we don't - depends on what we want to do.

When some of us veterans get together we sometimes talk about the two types of engineer we come across - those obsessed by gear and those obsessed by sound (we're all obsessed of course, just with different things!). I'm increasingly more bothered about the sound than the badges, but do sometimes encounter (usually younger than me by 20 or more years) engineers who are badge-obsessed and think that I can't possibly get a good sound from some of the gear I use... and yet my clients tell me different.

The "Skoda" syndrome seems to affect many areas of life!

In good humour. Ken

I have the feeling we must be of the same sort of vintage, Ken!

I've got guys working for me that "need" the badges - and they're often amazed at the live (and recorded) sound I get using non-name kit.

I keep telling them the best kit they've got is attached to their heads, holding their beanies up, but do they listen???? :-)

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Aint much point buying an Aston Vanquish if all you're ever going to do is drive it up and down a dirt track, that would truly be snobbery, and stupidity.

Of course theres brand snobbery, it's an important part of any marketplace. The lounge bar, the best seats in a theatre, a good caviar, an expensive haircut and shave.

The question is does it do you any good? Is it worth the dosh. Jack made a good point, he said that the competition are using top end gear and so he needs to so as to keep up and compete.

But ask him what else he has. That mic isnt working in isolation, and that JCM900+4x12 or classic Fender Twin Reverb isnt being used in a bedroom set in a suburban semi. Those amps don't start to cook until you have them wound up to cop calling volumes and neither does that Aston Vanquish. So what's the point?

What are you trying to achieve? A commercial quality recording, go to a studio. Why waste your money on something you can't use to it's best advantage. You wouldnt take Linda Evangelista to a chippy on the corner so why set up a 2k mic in a room with some DIY treatment, cars going past outside?

If the difference was 100quid or 300quid then okay, you could indulge in a little luxury. But if you're an amateur and the difference is a good night out or a months salary? well to me it's a no brainer.

Once upon a time musicians earned the right to use great equipment and studios. Now many people think they can shortcut that by spending money at some box shifters in Germany, you can't.

I mean be serious, what exactly do you expect his great microphone or speaker cab to do for you. Make you play or sing better, be surrounded by some magical aura that will make you transcend your current abilities?

Go inside yourself for the magic and if it's there then you will one day stand in front of a classy signal chain, if it isnt, you wont.

The gift of low priced home recording equipment is that we can make decent demos at home, but that's all they are really, decent demos... Don't kid yourself.

You know, the worrying thing that this thread brings up is that we, as a group of people, seem to be headed into the same type of territory that audiophiles who pay $350 for a "sound enhancing" wooden knob inhabit.

With the best will in the world, I could never bring myself to even try to justify the purchase of Neumann's most expensive mic (or Schoeps' or a fair few others), and that's even though I earn my living in the studio business - not when I know that gaining a return on that investment will be next to impossible in anything other than a very long timescale.

Yes, lovely kit. Yes, top quality. Unfortunately (for the vendors), I can get 95% of the way there with something costing a couple of hundred quid. And I don't want to go bankrupt.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote ==:

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Jack made a good point, he said that the competition are using top end gear and so he needs to so as to keep up and compete.

But ask him what else he has. That mic isnt working in isolation, and that JCM900+4x12 or classic Fender Twin Reverb isnt being used in a bedroom set in a suburban semi. Those amps don't start to cook until you have them wound up to cop calling volumes and neither does that Aston Vanquish.

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Absolutely. If you can't apply this quality throughout, don't worry about it.

J

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www.jackruston.com

Quote ==:

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The gift of low priced home recording equipment is that we can make decent demos at home, but that's all they are really, decent demos... Don't kid yourself.

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I know what you mean, but they arent demos if they come out.

Ive not had anything approaching a glimmer of success, but records I have been on and mixed have been released in multiple markets, had mainstream airtime and shifted some units.

Evertything was done in the studio in my spare room from recording to mastering, and ive never had anyone ever say anything about the sound quality (apart from good things, obviously )

Just because its not abby road, doesnt mean its a demo. Not everyone will deconstruct a record when they hear it.

Jay,

In terms of branded gear, from my limited experience its really hard to tell. I didnt know what a better mic could do until I had pushed my current mic to its limits & deveoped a mixing style.

Now its as clear as day to me what I need to make my sound 'better', and thats what im hunting for.

Theres so much subjectivity involved. From your posts so far, I would say it looks like your setting up a project studio and I would take a guess and say you want to buy a set up now that you wont want to replace. IMO, you should just buy some mid range stuff and give it a go, youll like some, grow to learn why some stuff isnt as good for the job YOU want it to do as others.

Just to reiterate, im only an engineer as a hobby, but in that sense i think im closer to where you are, as I only got my first set up 5 years ago, and so can relate to the total trauma of getting started. It really is about just using stuff, unfortunatly. (good to cut the real chaff on these forums though).

I would fully reccomend the AT 40.. series if your looking for a decent all rounder.

Quote ==:

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You wouldnt take Linda Evangelista to a chippy on the corner

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I would. And if she can't fit in with my lifestyle, she can sod right off!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Well, if owning an expensive mic or two is brand snobbery, then I guess I am a snob! As Steve said, once you hear what a great mic sounds like, you will say that you finally understand what all the fuss was about!

I also agree with the weakest link argument however... to get the most out of your great mic, you need a great source, a great room, great upline gear, etc. It is the entire package that makes the difference.

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Doublehelix:

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As Steve said, once you hear what a great mic sounds like, you will say that you finally understand what all the fuss was about!

It is the entire package that makes the difference.

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And sadly, Linda just doesn't have it...

Have the best of both worlds..

Buy used, old ,top kit

STC 4038 Ribbon £315

E-Bay is the answer.

Roger
IMHO


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I am the Walrus.

Quote ROLO46:

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E-Bay is the answer.

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If you know your stuff and are careful to avoid the fakes......

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote John Willett:

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Quote ROLO46:

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E-Bay is the answer.

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If you know your stuff and are careful to avoid the fakes......

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Absolutely - it isn't called fleabay for nothing...

Jay

When you puchase for instance a 'Neumann', how much are you paying for the name...? And how much for the product?

Neumann accessories
EA87 shockmount - £249
Spare Wooden Box - £132
BS48 Battery (for phantom power)- £360

I really have no idea, though I'm fairly certain I could get a cracking wooden box way cheaper than that...It does raise questions in my mind...

Jay

It's a pretty well established idea that the 'accessories' are, er, a bit excessively priced....it's more what the mics can do that interests me, though, not necessarily the shockmount.

Quote Jay Menon:

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When you puchase for instance a 'Neumann', how much are you paying for the name...? And how much for the product?

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You are paying for the product.

You are paying for quality design and engineering in a German factory with German labour costs.

And you can hear the difference.

You get what you pay for - a good mic. appreciates in value over the years (unlike most other items).

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote Jay Menon:

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Neumann accessories
EA87 shockmount - £249
Spare Wooden Box - £132
BS48 Battery (for phantom power)- £360

I really have no idea, though I'm fairly certain I could get a cracking wooden box way cheaper than that...It does raise questions in my mind...

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Shockmount - quality German engineering sold in small quantities - expensive but equates to the cost of manufacture and build. Other Neumann shockmounts are half the price (eg: EA 1) only because they are designed to work with several mics.

Personally I think Neumann should supply the shockmount with the mic. and the cost includes both - that should stop these moanings.

Wooden box - comes with the mic. why would you want another? The cost is relative to the hassle involved in supplying an odd box.

BS48 is *not* a spare battery it's a phantom power supply - sold in very small quantities because most mixers have phantom power and the cost reflects the high quality and small sales.

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John - Sound-Link ProAudio
President - Federation Internationale des Chasseurs de Sons

Quote Aural Reject:

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It's a pretty well established idea that the 'accessories' are, er, a bit excessively priced....it's more what the mics can do that interests me, though, not necessarily the shockmount.

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the

The problem, of course, is that the accessories are obscenely expensive for such intrinsically cheap things, and therefore, notwithstanding the subjective quality of the inner workings of the mic, its true monetary value is brought into question.

Patently, there is some element of trading on the name.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote John Willett:

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Shockmount - quality German engineering sold in small quantities - expensive but equates to the cost of manufacture and build.

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Horsefeathers! Any self-respecting fabricator could knock them up to sell at £25 - and they'd still be making £24.50 on the deal.

Quote:

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Other Neumann shockmounts are half the price (eg: EA 1) only because they are designed to work with several mics.

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yup - and perhaps also because loads of sensibly priced mounts also work with them.

Quote:

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Personally I think Neumann should supply the shockmount with the mic. and the cost includes both - that should stop these moanings.

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Indeed they should - at no extra cost.

Quote:

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Wooden box - comes with the mic. why would you want another? The cost is relative to the hassle involved in supplying an odd box.

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What hassle? It's a box - it comes in in a box, you stick a label on it and ship it out - it's not rocket science! £20 is all it's worth, max - and that includes shipping.

Quote:

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BS48 is *not* a spare battery it's a phantom power supply - sold in very small quantities because most mixers have phantom power and the cost reflects the high quality and small sales.

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How hard is it to put 48v on a rail and make sure it doesn't short out? And if it's that much hassle, buy 'em in pre-built from the far east!

Extortionate pricing, in my view - it doesn't help Neumann's case one iota.

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[url=http://www.facebook.com/pages/hifi-studios/117322741632389[/url]

Quote Jay Menon:

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When you puchase for instance a 'Neumann', how much are you paying for the name...? And how much for the product?

Neumann accessories
EA87 shockmount - £249
Spare Wooden Box - £132
BS48 Battery (for phantom power)- £360

I really have no idea, though I'm fairly certain I could get a cracking wooden box way cheaper than that...It does raise questions in my mind...

Jay

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Hmmm... you don't have to buy Neumann accessories, you could just gaffa tape your u87 to a stand, or maybe buy a cheap Chinese mount, which may or may not fit or work. It might even last for awhile before it drops your beloved mic on the deck.

Anyway, as far as I was aware, no one is being forced to buy expensive brands around here.

You ask for advice you get it.

If you can hear the difference, have the budget and can justify the outlay then it's fine to buy 'branded' mics, if you can't hear the difference and don't have the budget fine. I don't think snobbery comes into it, though I suspect inverse snobbery is rife!

My own experience is probably not uncommon. I started off with basic gear and thought I was doing OK. But as the years have past I believe my listening and engineering skills have improved and now I am more aware of the (sometimes) subtle differences between mics etc.

But more importantly, I've become aware that cumulative subtle differences can have a large impact on the mix. I'm using way less EQ and processing on tracks now. Is it me? Is it my gear?

I believe microphones are the most significant part of the recording chain (assuming reasonable acoustics and musician/instruments). I'm happy to invest funds in order to get the sound I want and as John points out classic microphones are not going to go out of fashion, or devalue.

Cheers

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

The cost of extras annoys me but does not detract from the quality of the mics. You can get an excellent U87 shockmount made by Peluso for about £60, or generic copies for under £20 from a US Christian guy who advertises on eBay - I have bought happily from both.

Having acquired some old Neumann KM84s, I asked them if they would sell me (at any price) one of their wooden boxes to house two of them safely. This at a time when they were advertising KM184s as matched pairs in just such a box (the mics are the same size).

They refused to sell me one. Now that really is bloody annoying!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

They actually refused to sell you one - even though they had them available...???

Wow...!

Jay

Quote hifistud2:

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The problem, of course, is that the accessories are obscenely expensive for such intrinsically cheap things, and therefore, notwithstanding the subjective quality of the inner workings of the mic, its true monetary value is brought into question.

Patently, there is some element of trading on the name.

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I would have to agree with that. If the accessories are overpriced in relation to what you get for your money, it would seem entirely reasonable to expect the same value for your money (or lack thereof) with a company's other products...

I ask you (genuinely) would some of the very experienced folk here be willing to participate in a randomised controlled double-blind scientific study - I've done plenty as an eye surgeon and would be happy to design and conduct one along robust research principles.

The study will involve auditioning 10 different microphones, 4 or 5 different sources (male vox, female vox acoustic guitar, drums etc) and evaluating them on relevant parameters (without knowing what you're listening to). We'll use a visual analogue scale where 10 is God's gift to recording and 0 sounds like a cat in labour. Another possible element to this trial might involve the ability to accurately identify the microphone (type?, polar pattern?) being used.

I wait eagerly to hear from you...please bear in mind the study protocol is as yet not finalised and can be modified to address pertinent and relevant issues involved in such a trial.

Regards

Jay

PS. Needless to say, anonymity of all participants will be guaranteed (unless you specifically request to be named).

Edited by Jay Menon (29/01/08 12:47 AM)

Well there is a scientific test Here...

This guy (audiotalk) is so funny ...I split my sides...! Smart chap too...

Jay

Quote Jay Menon:

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I ask you (genuinely) would some of the very experienced folk here be willing to participate in a randomised controlled double-blind scientific study - I've done plenty as an eye surgeon and would be happy to design and conduct one along robust research principles.

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Can't be much of an eye surgeon if you've had to do lots of double blind tests....

But seriously folks, with a few exceptions I have been lucky to have tested extensively on a variety of sources most of the microphones I have bought, often working with another engineer with blind tests and so on. I also archive tests and revisit them.

I have little interest in having top brand microphones to support my marketing, which is done largely by word of mouth and reputation in a relatively small community.

It's no coincidence that I have a few Neumann microphones in my collection and I generally use them a lot because they sound good. End of story.

Bob

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www.bickerton.co.nz

I don't really mind doing a blind test, but it doesn't really prove anything in isolation.

For example, I find that my u87 takes EQ very well, and also blends well into a busy mix, Evaluating a mic in isolation is a difficult thing to do for anyone...

Test... test...

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James
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake" ~Napoleon Bonaparte~

Quote Bob Bickerton:

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Can't be much of an eye surgeon if you've had to do lots of double blind tests.... Bob

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Well my patients can't see to catch me anyway - so I got away with it...!

Jay