Afternoon guys,

How do percentages work with collaborations?
I am starting a record label and I’m trying to build on a brand. I’m looking to work with a composer and have offered him 50% of the production. This is how I judge a song:
1) The production team involved in the song and created the instrumental should own 50% of the whole song.
2) Recording artists working on the song should own 50% of the whole song on the basis that they completed half the song with the lyrics and vocals.
Surely that’s fair? What’s your opinion?

I know the composer personally and he has asked for 50% of the whole song (25% production & 25% lyrics/vocals). I consider this to be quite disrespectful considering the composer will only co-produce with me as a part of the production team, and will have nothing to do with the lyric writing. We both work independently and so he is not involved in the lyrics. He doesn’t even write lyrics.
I hope I am not being bias, and I hope I am looking at this logically to come to a sensible agreement. I’d really appreciate a non-bias point of view.

I’ve offered him 25% of the whole song on the basis that the production only equals to 50% of the whole song. While the artist/song writer makes up the other 50%.

As I am also an artist I feel as though he may not like the thought of me gaining more money than him which maybe the reason for him demanding such a large percentage. I know other composers, should I just go off and work with them or is his offer reasonable? Too me it seems like his trying to get more than his fair share.
But, if I co-produce and I am the artist and I write the song then surely I am entitled to the larger percentage? This will not always be the case as we will mostly be working with other artists. However, what right do we have to own any of their lyrics? And even if that were the case, surely he has no right to own 50% of the whole song just being he composes?

What’s your view on this? Is he asking too much?

How much % of the whole song should the composer get? You may choose only one 25% 35% 50% 75%

Votes accepted from (02/02/08 12:00 AM) to (No end specified) View Poll results

Just want your opinion and vote please. Thanks

I think I'm missing something and wondering if I'm being more than a bit dim, but...

You refer to 'production' being worth a hefty chunk of the percentage of a song - I think you've got to be clearer in your definition of what production is in this context, as the way your post is worded is a bit ambiguous. Is production twiddling a couple of knobs, telling the talent to cheer up and reminding the runner what sort of cheese you'd like in your bagle? Or actually composing music that features in a track, and possibly playing / programming on it too?

I'm an old fashioned kind of guy, so still believe in the idea that the split on a song is 50% for music, 50 % for lyric. So if your mate is composing music with you for a track, but does nothing on the lyric side, then he's up for 25% of the track. If you're co-composing with him and soley writing the lyric, then you're in for the other 75%.

you cant differentiate ANYTHING in music composition copyright (and hence publishing) - that is all down to personal agreement.

If you have a 50/50 agreement and he wrote all the lyrics and you wrote all the music , HE STILL GETS PAID if the instrumental is only used.

Agree your splits on a song by song basis and stop trying to make a general case. To be honest - carry on down this root and you'll enjoy a war before you make any headway !!

good luck....

I mean we physically create from scratch an instrumental within Cubase (eg. composing the melody, bass line, percussion etc), then obviously mix (not master). We do that as a team. Let me clarify, this isn’t about greed, it’s about everybody getting what they deserved based on what they worked on. If he only worked on the instrumental then is it not right that he only gets a percentage based on what he worked on? I will be looking to have a signed agreement with any artist i work with, and an agreement with the co-composer/producer i work with.

The facts are clear. The instrumental will be done by him and me. We won the instrumental 100% and it is split 50/50 between us.
The lyrics will be done by an artist. I suggest that creator owns the lyrics and 100% of the rights also. If i write the song or another artist, if the lyric writer is the sole person to work on the lyrics then it belongs totally to them.

Should that not be correct?

I'm not sure its old fashioned not to want to give away a percentage and ownership to somebody that didnt work on it.

If you think the co-composer of the instrumental should be paid 50%, then as co-composer i should also be paid 50%... Ok, that makes sense. We both own 100% together.

Now, what happens if somebody comes along and wants to use one of our instrumentals and want to write to it? Surely that person owns his lyrics? Or,does the 100% get split 3 ways in that case?

Quote Poet:

---

If you think the co-composer of the instrumental should be paid 50%, then as co-composer i should also be paid 50%... Ok, that makes sense. We both own 100% together.

Now, what happens if somebody comes along and wants to use one of our instrumentals and want to write to it? Surely that person owns his lyrics? Or,does the 100% get split 3 ways in that case?

---

yes, because you cannot separate the lyrics and music from a single registered composition. If you have the registered and published instrumental and then someone adds lyrics, its a new composition with a negotiable split between the both of you.

It's early; I'm tired and I apologise if I haven't fully understood your various definitions (particularly when you talk about 'production', 'artist' etc), but a) Reid and Narcoman have given you good advice and b) can I make a couple of points based on long experience?

Firstly, if you're looking at a long term, viable working relationship, believe me when I say that the most successful tend to avoid pedantry in terms of who wrote what. My most successful co-written albums have a straight 50/50 split on royalties, even though they contain tracks to which one partner contributed, say, 90%. So what, we got the projects out there and finished and all the tracks earn. I could also point at loads of bands who split all royalties equally. This leads to a stable working relationship that lasts and that generates money for a much longer time period.

Secondly, and to summarise if poss:
Start from the premise that a song equals music and lyrics, and each earns 50%. If you and the other guy create a backing track/instrumental, without a melody or lyrics, you each own 50% of that. If a third party comes along and adds anything, you negotiate, but be prepared for the lyricist to claim 50% of the total, even if you contribute the melody. (In this instance, the melody becomes absorbed into the music 'portion', if you see what I mean). If the lyricist also contributes the melody, well, as I said, negotiate. But, really, is an equal split amongst all contributors too much to ask? It's not like you have four additional session musicians each trying to claim a writing credit for , e.g. contributing the bass part or a guitar solo.

If, like me, you would rather have 25% of a lot than 50% of nothing, don't get too hung up on this and let it get in the way of success. And as always, circumstances alter cases, e.g. if you're assisting a successful film composer and ghost-write half the score for a film, you could conceivably expect no royalties and no writing credit for that work - it's all part of the apprenticeship!

Good luck...!

--------------------
"Over fifteen years without a slogan"

Could we have a brief reality check? I have been following this thread with interest, but one thing seems to have been overlooked.
Have you even finished collaboratively creating anything with this guy yet?
Has anyone shown any interest in paying you anything for the result of the collaboratio?
At this stage it seems like you are obsessing over something that hasn`t even showed its head on the horizon.
Would you not be better occupied getting some good product sorted out and seeing how the workload split evelops as you go along?

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Firstly, let me say thanks for all your feedback!

The reality check is that we have collectively finished 3 tracks and much interest has been shown from established and non-established artists. I have been negotiating with them but cannot discuss any of that as im sure you can understand. It is not "obsessing over something that hasn't even shown its head on the horizon".

I will negotiate a 3 way split where we all have ownership over everything. I am a producer and recording artist (rapper) and i consider them 2 different things totally which is why if we work together i will ask that whether i write the lyrics or somebody else does, the rights be split 3 ways (e.g. 33.33% to me for co-production, 33.33% to composer for co-production, and 33.33% to lyric writer/artist whether that is me or not). This seems like a more reasonable compromize.

So you are debating over 33.33% of at best 5% of 90% of total? (grin)

Bearing in mind this is apparently some sort of urban-style record we are discussing, ( you are a rapper) what are your expectations as far as sales are concerned if it doesn`t "cross over "as it were?

I still think you are taking this all to an extreme without really considering the collateral damage this may do to your relationship with your friend.

I would suggest you both sit down over some beers/coffee/why and try to determine where you are both coming from and what level of compromise you can arrive at.
It`s nice to be important, but it is also important to be nice.
Money you can always get, good fiends don1t come along every day, especially ones sufficiently talented to help you make music.

--------------------
Me? But I`m such a loveable old bugger!

Quote Poet:

---

Firstly, let me say thanks for all your feedback!

The reality check is that we have collectively finished 3 tracks and much interest has been shown from established and non-established artists. I have been negotiating with them but cannot discuss any of that as im sure you can understand. It is not "obsessing over something that hasn't even shown its head on the horizon".

I will negotiate a 3 way split where we all have ownership over everything. I am a producer and recording artist (rapper) and i consider them 2 different things totally which is why if we work together i will ask that whether i write the lyrics or somebody else does, the rights be split 3 ways (e.g. 33.33% to me for co-production, 33.33% to composer for co-production, and 33.33% to lyric writer/artist whether that is me or not). This seems like a more reasonable compromize.

---

Agreeing with the reality check view -

Remember also that production is part of the recording. Which has nothing to do with publishing. It'd be odd to include production with publishing and would make things very confusing.

I would say be carefull.
Urban music is very strange.
Look at Eminem.
A lot of people got known and very wealthy off his contact and being in his circle.
He respected the people he worked with and took them with him.
If the music written by someone inspires someone else then its a straight split in my view.
Just split everything dont get pretentious.
Not saying your are like.

I can remember when i recorded my 1st vinyl with a vocalist.
I made his track street his manager tried to sign me of in the contract as a keyboard plater with a 3% percentage.
I had already copyrighted the recording and knocked out the manager and blew my so called friend out.
The track was released but got know where partly becasue the whole business behind it was dirty.
Lesson learnt?
Keep it clean keep it simple.