Looking for info on how Mike Rutherford got the heavily distorted bass tone one hears on early Genesis albums. It's sort of a 'quacky' tone but with enough beef to hold down the bottom. He's able to play with a surprising amount of complexity and still the notes are definable.

...and no it's not the Taurus pedals. And no, I don't think it's some 'custom bass' as I was fortunate enough to see LLDOB back in the day and despite the smoke of memory, I seem to recall his playing a fairly conventional looking P-Bassy thing most of the time.

Anyhoo, it's all over 'Lamb' such as 'The Chamber Of 32 Doors'.

Any ideas? Yeah, I know it's obscure, but I've really never heard -anything- else like it.

There used to be a guy here who was acquainted with John Burns (the RE, I believe)

TIA,

---JC

Hi Suntower,

TLLDOB is one of my favourite albums and I saw them at Newcastle City Hall way back then... superb stuff.

Mike R never played a Precision Bass - he was mostly a Rickenbacker man around that period, moving on in 76/77 to the famous Shergold Masquerader custom twin-neck for Trick Of The Tail and Wind & Wuthering albums/tours.



From memory he was playing a customised Rickenbacker twin-neck 4-string Bass with 12-string Guitar at the top (see photo I found on the net from that tour), and Lamb was covered all over in MXR Phase 90 and Distortion (Plus?) fuzz-box.

A lot of the staccato, punchy bass sound resulted from Steve Hackett doubling up the bass lines on his lowest E and A strings, also through a fuzz-box - however, Steve had been using his EMS Synthi Hi-Fli guitar synth on Selling England album and the quacky sound I believe came from the Envelope shaper part of the Synthi Hi-Fli, which incorporated some sort of Octave divider circuitry as well. It might well be that Hackett used an octave divider to drop his 6th string to reinforce the bass.



I do recall reading at the time that Mike dabbled a lot with direct injection of bass guitar (as did Graham Gouldman of 10cc, who was also a Rickenbacker player at the time).

I loved the bass sound (still do) and would love to know of any special recording techniques John Burns employed -- if there's anyone out there in forumland connected with the project reading this, do chip in and enlighten us.

cheers,
Ian G

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SOS Gear Videos now screening on www.SoundOnSound.tv
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Google brought up this David Gilmour afficionados site which explains in detail what the controls were on the unit:

http://www.gilmourish.com/?page_id=77

It did contain an Octave Shift, Sustain Fuzz and Phase Filter... I remember going up to the stage at Newcastle (as a boy) and ogling the box after the Genesis gig. I recall they were advertised in International Musician magazine and cost around £3,000 - back in 74/75 that was a mountain of dosh for an analogue effects box (compared to what Boss and DigiTech pedalboards offer nowadays).

Ian G

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SOS Gear Videos now screening on www.SoundOnSound.tv
SOS Podcasts

Bit more Googling found an article explaining that Mike in fact played a short-scale Micro Frets six-string bass, feeding a Marshall fuzz going through an Acoustic bass amp for the recording - though I'm pretty sure that's a Rickenbacker twin-neck in the black&white photo above - anyone know for sure?

Ian G

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SOS Gear Videos now screening on www.SoundOnSound.tv
SOS Podcasts

The Hi-Fli was designed by the great David Cockerell as a guitar multi-effects device.

Main Controls and Effects (Left to right on control panel)

* Top Boost Slider to provide up to 30db boost at high frequencies. The output from this section goes to the Octave Shift, Sustained Fuzz and Ring Mod sections.
* Octave Shift Slider mixes in a Sub Octave signal.
* Buzz Switch adds high frequency overtones to the sub octave signal.
* Ring Mod Slider mixes in a signal an octave up when single notes are played or "ring modulated" effects on chords.
* Decay Rate Rotary control for the decay time of Ring Mod and Octave Shift signals.
* Sustain Fuzz Slider mixes variable upper harmonics.
* Attack Rate Rotary control varies the rise time of the sustained fuzz signal.
* Pedal Switches Each switch routes either the left or right pedal to voltage control the Slider above it. Each switch also has an inverted setting so that single pedal movements can produce complimentary effects.
* Solo/Strum Switch to alter the Hi-Fli's sensitivity to playing style.
* Bypass Mix Central Slider to blend the effects and original signal.
* Modulation Selector Rotary Switch selects: Slow Modulation range, Fast Modulation range, Rising Mod envelope, Falling Mod envelope, Rising Ramp and Falling Ramp.
* Treatment Selector Rotary switch selects: VIBRATO, PHASING 1, PHASING 2, WAA-WAA (single resonant peak), WAW-WAW (six resonant peaks) and MEOW (two sets of three peaks in opposite directions).
* Modulation Speed Slider to fine control the modulation rate.
* Modulation Ramp Time Slider to set ramp time between 0 and 5 seconds.
* Modulation Depth Slider controlling depth of modulation applied to Phase Filter.
* Frequency Shift Slider to bias the symmetry of modulation.

It was £300 in 1973 and famously used by Steve Hackett on LLDOB (weird solo sound on 'Counting Out Time' for example).

Rutherford did not use one but Hackett and him often played in unison in places. There is fuzz bass on there too.

And yes, in answer to Ian - I am pretty sure Mike used a Ricky on stage prior to the Shergolds.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

I've always spent so much time thinking about how Tony Banks gets such a great sound, that I've never really considered how Mike gets his great sound.

I knew about the Hi-Fli as it can be seen on one of their videos (Genesis In Concert 76 I think). There was a Hi-Fli for sale a short while back from RL Music if I remember correctly (for an amusing figure).

I've always loved the sound of the Dewtron bass pedals used on the Gabriel-era albums.

Considering my obsession with all things Genesis I find myself blushing with shame that I've never even HEARD of an EMS Hi-Fli, let alone know that Genesis used one!

Suddenly I'm starting to understand where a lot of those noises in the live recordings of 'The Waiting Room' were coming from, and why I could never conjure them from my ARP Pro-Solist!

I just dropped 5 points from my geekery score - ouch!

Are there any other obscure Genesis hardware gems that anyone can enlighten us with?

This is the keyboard rig I use for my LLDOB re-creation evenings:
Hammond T-202 => MXR Phase 100 => Roland CE-1 (correct order I think - at the time of the Lamb Tony was still using a real Leslie, but I love this version of his sound, so the VKP-1 valve pre-amp and Dynacord CLS222 stay at home!)
RMI 368 ElectraPiano => Fender Blender => MXR Phase 100 (should there be another CE-1 in this chain?)
ARP Pro-Soloist
M-Tron using Augmented 8 choir, Vintage Violins, Flutes

We run guitar through a Coloursound Tonebender for that typical Hackett bite, but I do know he actually used to use two fuzzboxes in series, especially for 'Carpet Crawl' - a Shin-ai I think.

Rickenbacker bass goes through a Fender Blender and seems to capture the right spirit, though I don't know if it's technically accurate.

And then there are those mighty Moog Taurus bass pedals... Snarl!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

WELL DONE TO -YOU- SIR!

I recall the double-neck, but there was another blonde instrument which I thought was a Fender... but hey... it -was- 30+ years ago, I was a teen, and pretty loaded to boot.

I'll definitely study this info. The tone he got, whether distorted or not was remarkably hi-fi for the time. Almost like a Warwick or Alembic on some songs (Epping Forest)... Very scooped, but with clear highs for all the nimble bits.

Big Cheers!

---JC

Quote Forum Admin:

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Bit more Googling found an article explaining that Mike in fact played a short-scale Micro Frets six-string bass, feeding a Marshall fuzz going through an Acoustic bass amp for the recording - though I'm pretty sure that's a Rickenbacker twin-neck in the black&white photo above - anyone know for sure?

Ian G

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Quote Suntower:

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WELL DONE TO -YOU- SIR!

I recall the double-neck, but there was another blonde instrument which I thought was a Fender... but hey... it -was- 30+ years ago, I was a teen, and pretty loaded to boot.

---

I used to have a Shergold double neck Bass/12 string. All I can say is that a) I can't believe I sold it and b) It's probably a good thing I did as I was going to chop it in half.

Rutherford must have had the shoulders of an Ox. The thing was so heavy when strapped on it practically broke my back and was impossible to play seated!

Nice to see some Genesis love. What with the big G here and an appreciation of Yes's Topographic Oceans in 'the other place' I'm starting not to feel so alone after my championing of prog throughout the 80's and 90's.

It's amazing who's coming out of the woodwork and admitting to liking the genre. Yeah!

Stephen

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New Henry Fool album (Featuring Phil Manzenera and Jarrod Gosling) out now. https://www.burningshed.com/store/henryfool/

Quote The Elf:

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Are there any other obscure Genesis hardware gems that anyone can enlighten us with?

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The Dewtron bass pedals Rutherford used were made by a small (now defunct) UK company based (IIRC) in Cornwall (or suchlike) that sold synthesiser kits. You could buy the boards ready made or you could buy them in kit form. The bass pedals were one of the few actual fully assembled 'products' that they made. They were pretty cheap even back then and intended for cheesy home organs that didn't come with bass pedals supplied.

Banks used to use a Hohner Pianet before the RMI.

Hackett used Roland's original GR500 guitar synth towards the end of his stay with the band.

Pete Cornish built Hackett's pedal board.

Banks used a Chiltern 16-channel mixer with a Roland Space Echo later on.

The fool replaced his Tron with a Roland VP300+ vocoder for the choir parts in later days (Banks was never fond of one of the main trademark instruments behind Genesis' 'sound').

Banks had an Akai S612 (Akai's first noddy little sampler from 1984)

Quote The Elf:

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This is the keyboard rig I use for my LLDOB re-creation evenings:
Hammond T-202 => MXR Phase 100 => Roland CE-1 (correct order I think - at the time of the Lamb Tony was still using a real Leslie, but I love this version of his sound, so the VKP-1 valve pre-amp and Dynacord CLS222 stay at home!)
RMI 368 ElectraPiano => Fender Blender => MXR Phase 100 (should there be another CE-1 in this chain?)
ARP Pro-Soloist
M-Tron using Augmented 8 choir, Vintage Violins, Flutes

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Nice

Pretty authentic too.

Point of order on the Tron though - Banks had the standard 8 male/8 Female choir, brass and violins on his M400's frame (not sure about the dual manual MkII they bought from King Crimson though).

Quote The Elf:

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And then there are those mighty Moog Taurus bass pedals... Snarl!

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Dribble.

If they were released today, the Health and Safety boys would be onto 'em for some violation or another - probably to do with the displacement of dental work!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Suntower:

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I recall the double-neck, but there was another blonde instrument which I thought was a Fender...

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If it's the one I'm thinking of, Mike used a standard Rickenbacker 4001.



He then had Rickenbacker build him a double neck before switching to the Shergold.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Stephen Bennett:

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Nice to see some Genesis love. What with the big G here and an appreciation of Yes's Topographic Oceans in 'the other place' I'm starting not to feel so alone after my championing of prog throughout the 80's and 90's.

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I'm not sure prog ever died - trendy young things just told us it had!

Today we have Dream Theatre, Spock's Beard, Porcupine Tree, Frost and many others .... and, of course, Marillion still out there ... not to mention the various tribute bands. A certain synth/keyboard I am well associated with in terms of sound design is *very* popular with new, young proggers (due in no small part, probably, to the large assortment of instruments sampled from that era!)

Quote Stephen Bennett:

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It's amazing who's coming out of the woodwork and admitting to liking the genre. Yeah!

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It's become less 'shameful' to admitting in polite conversation that you liked 'early' Genesis and not just the era when they became Collins' backing band

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Are you in some form of tribute band? If so where do you play and what are you called?

Don't know if any of you have ever seen the Canadian tribute band 'The Musical Box', caught them twice last year. Absolutely astonishing recreation of the 'Selling England by the Pound' tour. Costumes, lighting, instrumentation exactly as at the time. Exact set list, even down to Gabriel's bizarre in between song stories. The singer mimics every aspect of Gabriel's performance and stays in character throughout the set. The slide projections used are the bands originals and one of Genesis' old road crew helps with the lighting (and does a support slot).

Of course that tour includes virtually all their seminal early stuff including 'Supper's Ready' (complete with thunderflashes) and encoring with the 'The Knife'. Sadly last October was their last European SEBTP tour as the singer says he's too old to continue playing Gabriel. I believe they're touring 'Trick of the Tail' this year.

Hearing 'Watcher of the Skies' wafting out of someone's dorm room at college got me hooked. Was never fortunate enough to see the real band until '78, but hearing it performed live last year at the Albert Hall (even if it wasn't the real band) transported me back about 30 years.. As soon as I heard him I realised the singer had nailed Gabriel's voice, that was it I was gone.

Hey, my 1000th post well at least it's about something more than 'which monitors'

To me early Genesis were the soundtrack to the sunset of the British Empire. That they were predominantly *public school kids* seemed , to my mind, to be wholly commensurate with that.


They were like insiders watching the system fall down around them and acting as it's diarists, at times. I play early Genesis i am immediately transported back to a wood paneled library overlooking a well tended expanse of lawn. And yet, i am aware they were , through Gabriel, sending the whole thing up, not only lyrically, but musically.

Some people might not like this next statement but it's how i see it. There is a total and utter hypocracy in Britain about music. Mozza's lyrics are really no different, at all, to early Genesis and Jethro Tull at times. They are even delivered with a most definitely English accent . The language used is very much that of your typical; angst ridden sixth form grammar school student.

But hey Mozza is God and the others are just old farts... yeah right...

Of the modern stuff, and I'm aware being who i am it's in my own ball park. I have to say Porcupine Tree were and still are, a huge disappointment to me. Maybe i expected too much, but i wasn't expecting what , to my ears, sounds more like Styx than Genesis. I'm sorry, but to me they are just a *Pomp Rock* band.

Dream Theatre i can't help laughing at. It's so bloody serious and sincere without the slightest hint of them being aware what a bunch of self righteous prigs they come across as, at times. They seem to lack any sort of humour or musical humility to me and that, for me, means i cannot really ever take them seriously as more than some sort of *freak show* act.

To me, and this is purely my opinion, the heirs of the *Prog Mantel* are bands like Mercury Rev, Sigur Ros, Arcade Fire, Low, etc..

Having said that. If you like your *prog* more traditionally stirred personally i think Sweden's "The First band from outer space" are a good bet...

Now where's me afghan and me patchouli....

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nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog

Quote steveman:

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Are you in some form of tribute band?

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No, I'm not - I just have a rather unhealthy knowledge of trivia regarding the band

Quote steveman:

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Don't know if any of you have ever seen the Canadian tribute band 'The Musical Box'....

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Not in person but I've seen the YouTube vids. They seem very good. Due to my 'specialising' in sampling vintage gear, I am acquainted with some of the tribute bands who use my stuff in their Akai S5/6000s, Z4/8s or software samplers.

Quote steveman:

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Hearing 'Watcher of the Skies' wafting out of someone's dorm room at college got me hooked.

---

I saw them first in 1972 at the Cardiff Top Rank (tickets 30p!!) debuting 'Foxtrot' playing support to Lindisfarne (who were big with 'Meet Me On The Corner' at the time) and Paul White lookalike ( ) Ralph McTell (who was big with 'Streets Of London' at the time). I had no idea who Genesis were and was expecting a bunch of folkies.

Instead, the lights dimmed, silhouettes of the band shuffling on stage and fumbling around. A short pause....

And then this staggering, jaw-droppingly awesome Gothic, majestic, eerie, spine tingling sound filled the venue as the opening chords of 'Watcher...' were played. I was mesmerised and transported for the entire gig ... through 'Musical Box', 'Get 'em out by Friday', 'Can-Utility', 'Salmacis', 'Hogweed', the entire 'Supper's Ready', etc., encoring with 'The Knife'!!!

It was at the end of that hour and a half epiphany that a 15-yr-old decided upon music as a career.

I saw them on almost every tour after that (I even roadied for them and repaired Banks' M400 Tron prior to a Bristol Colston Hall gig as it was exhibiting the same symptoms that mine had!).

They lost me after 'Duke' however.

Quote steveman:

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Hey, my 1000th post well at least it's about something more than 'which monitors'

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"Prog and proud"

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Stevedog:

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To me early Genesis were the soundtrack to the sunset of the British Empire. That they were predominantly *public school kids* seemed , to my mind, to be wholly commensurate with that.


They were like insiders watching the system fall down around them and acting as it's diarists, at times. I play early Genesis i am immediately transported back to a wood paneled library overlooking a well tended expanse of lawn. And yet, i am aware they were , through Gabriel, sending the whole thing up, not only lyrically, but musically.

Some people might not like this next statement but it's how i see it. There is a total and utter hypocracy in Britain about music. Mozza's lyrics are really no different, at all, to early Genesis and Jethro Tull at times. They are even delivered with a most definitely English accent . The language used is very much that of your typical; angst ridden sixth form grammar school student.

But hey Mozza is God and the others are just old farts... yeah right...

---

Can't disagree with any of that. Perhaps the only difference is that Genesis were sometimes more surreal and (occasionally) used funny time signatures!!! And their songs were longer so, by default, pompous

I loved (and still do) the 'imagery' in Genesis' 'stories'. Only today, we had a family yomp in a local forest - misty, bleak and leafless with the remnants of Autumn still underfoot but the buds of Spring forcing their way through in the never ending circle of life and some crumbled ruin of what was once a magnificent piece of architecture in the distance. I was reminded of much of Genesis' imagery of a beautiful but disappearing quaint and eccentric Britain being trampled underfoot by Health and Safety executives and other new buffoons....

"This is an announcement from Genetic Control..... "

Quote Stevedog:

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Of the modern stuff.....

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I can't disagree with that either. I am drawn to it because it's not yer average mainstream blandness but it doesn't quite stir the loins.... and a lot of it seems to be almost a parody of itself (Dream Theatre in particular which has more than a hint of 'Spinal Tap' about it). But that may well be an 'age' (i.e. old fart cynic) thing on my part!

Quote Stevedog:

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Now where's me afghan and me patchouli....

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And the bollock squeezing loon flares!

I am wearing all of them as we speak!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Stevedog:

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To me, and this is purely my opinion, the heirs of the *Prog Mantel* are bands like Mercury Rev, Sigur Ros, Arcade Fire, Low, etc..

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I would agree - and add No-Man (Steven Wilson's 'other' band), Mew, Elbow, David Sylvian and even Gabriel himself on 'Up'.

Throw in Godspeed and offshoots and the genre is looking healthy - especially as there's a hunger for music that's being played by real people with skill on real instruments.

Sweden has a host of prog-influenced bands (Pattos, Opium Cartel, White Willow) because here, like most of Europe and unlike Britain, music is less about fashion a and more about listening.

Ironic though that the 'death' of prog was brought about in some way by John Lydon's love of Pete Hammill's 1975 proto-punk/new wave album 'Nadir's big chance'.

Regards

Stephen

And of course I guess I have to mention henry fool, my own polytonal ramblings www.henryfool.com

Quote hollowsun:

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sampled from that era!

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That's a mouth-watering list. How do I get hold of those samples?

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote steveman:

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Are you in some form of tribute band? If so where do you play and what are you called?

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No, it's just a bit of fun.

I've collected the Genesis soundalike kit over the years, gradually arriving at what I have today. The only thing I've never genuinely wanted to own is a Mellotron - far too much hassle to be honest. I have a couple of friends who have the real thing, so maybe one day we should draft one in just to have a magic moment. For me M-Tron does just fine.

One side of my studio has all the gear I use to work with these short-haired young band chappies. At the other side (crammed behind the keyboard stand) is my little 70s prog indulgence corner. The RMI 368 has to live in a cupboard 90% of the time because I've no room for it!

Surprising how often these young whipper-snappers get turned on by my Moog Taurus once they hear them though!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote hollowsun:

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I saw them first in 1972 at the Cardiff Top Rank (tickets 30p!!) debuting 'Foxtrot'

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Respect - and not a little jealousy!

I heard my first Genesis listening in on the 6th Form's hi-fi in around 1975. With the release of 'Wind and Wuthering' I was totally, utterly hooked. I waited for the next album with eager anticipation...

...so I can't begin to tell you how disappointed I was with '...and Then There Were Three'. Lots of people cite Gabriel's departure as being the end of the band's 'prog' era. I'd say that happened once Steve Hackett left the band - the power, romance and majesty of Genesis' music almost completely disappeared, and never truly returned. Whether that was Steve's influence, or simply coincidental with a new direction for the band is a moot point.

I hoped 'Duke' was a temporary glitch, but it signalled worse to come. I recall an inebriated guy in front of me at one gig standing and clapping his hands all the way through 'Misunderstanding', then going for a p*ss half-way though 'Supper's Ready' - pretty much summed up the band's new audience and I finally realised I was on a loser.

There's some good stuff on later albums, but you almost get the feeling the band were apologising for being able to play. That's a shame. it didn't do Floyd any harm, after all. I think Genesis are still one of our country's finest products.

...and I'll never figure out how Tony played some of those parts. What on earth *is* going on in the opening piano line of 'Carpet Crawl'?!

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote hollowsun:

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I can't disagree with that either. I am drawn to it because it's not yer average mainstream blandness but it doesn't quite stir the loins.... and a lot of it seems to be almost a parody of itself (Dream Theatre in particular which has more than a hint of 'Spinal Tap' about it). But that may well be an 'age' (i.e. old fart cynic) thing on my part!

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Exactly my thoughts.

Dream Theater - never has so much talent been wasted on so little.

Regards, Andrew

Quote The Elf:

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...so I can't begin to tell you how disappointed I was with '...and Then There Were Three'. Lots of people cite Gabriel's departure as being the end of the band's 'prog' era. I'd say that happened once Steve Hackett left the band - the power, romance and majesty of Genesis' music almost completely disappeared, and never truly returned. Whether that was Steve's influence, or simply coincidental with a new direction for the band is a moot point.

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I didn't mind ATTWT too much but Hackett's absence/influence was noticeable. Not that he was solely responsible for the 'sound' of the band of course. Personally, I think Collins was calling the shots a bit more with the other two of the band's main writers and Hackett was kind of elbowed out. He has said that more and more ideas of his were being rejected after TOTT and during WAW.

Quote The Elf:

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I recall an inebriated guy in front of me at one gig standing and clapping his hands all the way through 'Misunderstanding', then going for a p*ss half-way though 'Supper's Ready' - pretty much summed up the band's new audience

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Yep! 'Puke' was when they lost me ... when they became Collins' personal backing band. Things change I guess and I imagine they enjoyed making a packet out of those trite singles

Quote The Elf:

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I think Genesis are still one of our country's finest products.

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I agree. And more influential than people give 'em credit for IMO.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote Stevedog:

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To me early Genesis were the soundtrack to the sunset of the British Empire. That they were predominantly *public school kids* seemed , to my mind, to be wholly commensurate with that.

They were like insiders watching the system fall down around them and acting as it's diarists, at times. I play early Genesis i am immediately transported back to a wood paneled library overlooking a well tended expanse of lawn. And yet, i am aware they were , through Gabriel, sending the whole thing up, not only lyrically, but musically.

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Excellent analysis. I hadn't listened to them for years before catching The Musical Box last year. One thing that immediatly struck me was how incredibly English they sounded.
Never had much time for other 'prog', tried to like Yes & ELP (who they were always lumped with) but gave up.

Recall getting my ticket to see them at Knebworth in '78, and then finding out Hackett had left - gutted. Even more dubious when 'Follow You, Follow Me' was released... Still it turned out to be about the worst thing on ATTWT. 'Puke' and 'Abacab' were the low point, some return to form with the 'Genesis' album.

Quote ASG:

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Dream Theater - never has so much talent been wasted on so little.

Regards, Andrew

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Quote Stevedog:

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To me early Genesis were the soundtrack to the sunset of the British Empire.
I play early Genesis i am immediately transported back to a wood paneled library overlooking a well tended expanse of lawn.

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You hit the nail bang on the bonce!

When I listen to early Genesis I feel like I am listening to a band playing rock instruments made out of mahogany. It's Victorian/Edwardian rock music - a kind of time slip. It's tea, slippers and empire mixed with Dr. Who and steam punk.

Gawd I'm sounding like a bad 1970s NME album review!

I'll get my afghan...

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote steveman:

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tried to like Yes & ELP (who they were always lumped with) but gave up.

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Me too. I preferred the likes of Camel, Caravan and England ... prolly because they had a similar 'quintessential English' quirk about them.

You thought 'Follow You, Follow Me' was bad - did you hear the 'Match of The Day' single from the 'Spot The Pigeon' EP of around the same time? Bleugh!! Collins doing his blinky blonky bloimey 'artful dodger' bit in a Collins/Rutherford/Banks song about football!! I think it was that that maybe tipped the balance for Hackett and he left shortly afterwards when a tune of his submitted for W&W was relegated to the B-side of this dire (IMO) platter!

Note to self: dig out the early Genesis albums and Hackett's 'Voyage of the acolyte' and wallow!

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote The Elf:

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It's Victorian/Edwardian rock music - a kind of time slip. It's tea, slippers and empire mixed with Dr. Who and steam punk.

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With no place for the Earth, Wind and Fire funk-assed brass section

Quote The Elf:

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I'll get my afghan...

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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Quote steveman:

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tried to like Yes & ELP (who they were always lumped with) but gave up.

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Me too. I preferred the likes of Camel, Caravan and England ... prolly because they had a similar 'quintessential English' quirk about them.

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That's interesting because being brought up in a typically working class family in the North of England and going to a comprehensive school, I found Genesis totally foreign. It was as far away from my life and culture as the Famous five or Jack Kerouac. I did appreciate they were actually an English band , but to me they just might have well been from Mars.

They did get me interested in Greek mythology though.


Saw them first at Manchester Free Trade hall in '73. Went to see Lindisfarne and Van Der Graaf and walked in as 'Watcher of the skies' was playing. I've never been the same since.......

As for Caravan, the recent BBC7 series 'Spaceship' had Caravan's 25 minute fuzzed organ-led masterpiece '9 Feet underground' as its theme tune....

I saw Caravan play at a School in Norfolk a few years ago. They did '9 feet' and Dave Sinclair just improvised throughout the song. I wanted to knock him off his pseudo-organ and play the bloody thing as it is on the album.

Stephen

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New Henry Fool album (Featuring Phil Manzenera and Jarrod Gosling) out now. https://www.burningshed.com/store/henryfool/


Edited by Stephen Bennett (10/03/08 02:42 PM)

You better duck cos this is a real luvvie alert....

I sat next to Steve Hackett and Kim Poor at the Kate Bush gig at Hammersmith Odeon..It was the extra show she put on for the lighting guy who killed in an accident, in Poole?

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nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog

Quote Stevedog:

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You better duck cos this is a real luvvie alert....

I sat next to Steve Hackett and Kim Poor at the Kate Bush gig at Hammersmith Odeon..It was the extra show she put on for the lighting guy who killed in an accident, in Poole?

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Was he in a gimp outfit? I suspect she wears the trousers in that relationship.........

Stephen

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New Henry Fool album (Featuring Phil Manzenera and Jarrod Gosling) out now. https://www.burningshed.com/store/henryfool/

Strangely enough.... he had cut his hair, shaved off the beard and she was wearing a suit.... .. btw, that isn't a wind up

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nibbled to death by an Okapi http://www.soundclick.com/tubilahdog

Quote Stevedog:

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Strangely enough.... he had cut his hair, shaved off the beard and she was wearing a suit.... .. btw, that isn't a wind up

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I remember the shock of him standing up to play, shaving off the beard, removing the glasses and wearing a silk scarf - all after she came on the scene. Again 'Spinal tap' comes to mind....

Still one of the most original guitarists around though.

Stephen

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New Henry Fool album (Featuring Phil Manzenera and Jarrod Gosling) out now. https://www.burningshed.com/store/henryfool/

Quote Stephen Bennett:

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That's interesting because being brought up in a typically working class family in the North of England and going to a comprehensive school, I found Genesis totally foreign. It was as far away from my life and culture as the Famous five or Jack Kerouac. I did appreciate they were actually an English band , but to me they just might have well been from Mars.

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But if you HAD been brought up on 'The Famous Five' and their fantastic adventures ... or 'The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe', 'Prince Caspian', 'Alice in Wonderland/Through The Looking Glass', the nonsense poems of C.S. Lewis and others, Heath Robinson, etc., Genesis would have made perfect sense to you. Also, if you grew up around church/cathedral life.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

Quote hollowsun:

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But if you HAD been brought up on 'The Famous Five' and their fantastic adventures ... or 'The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe', 'Prince Caspian', 'Alice in Wonderland/Through The Looking Glass', the nonsense poems of C.S. Lewis and others, Heath Robinson, etc., Genesis would have made perfect sense to you. Also, if you grew up around church/cathedral life.

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I appreciate that! I wasn't denying it, just putting forward a different personal vewpoint.

I did actually read most of those things, speccy geekboy that I was, - but, like Genesis they were phantasies froma farway land.........

Stephen

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New Henry Fool album (Featuring Phil Manzenera and Jarrod Gosling) out now. https://www.burningshed.com/store/henryfool/

Hi There,
Mike Rutherford used a Rickenbacker 4001 Bass Guitar with a Rickenbacker 360/12 (rounded shoulders)doubleneck, built by Mr. Dick Knight in England for the "Selling England" Tour.
He moved to a Rick 360/12 on top with a Micro-Frets Signature Baritone Guitar doubleneck, built also by Mr. Dick Knight for "The Lamb". This is the beautiful doubleneck you can see in the above photo.
In terms of amplification, for "The Lamb", he used Ampeg amplifiers. He used a V4 for the Rick.
For "Selling", he used some custom build amplification, probably towards the end of the tour he moved to the Ampegs.
In terms of Bass Pedals, he used the Dewtrons "Mr Bassman" up to Selling, and moved to the Taurus for "The Lamb".

The Rick/Micro Frets was not so stable and tended to break, so Mr Dick Knight manufactured a full new custom built double neck made of a 12 string and a 6 string baritone guitar for the "Trick of the Tale" tour. This is the doubleneck you can see in the "Genesis in Concert" movie.
Now, Mike used the Rick/Micro-Frets in the first part of the tour, with two added mics in the Rick 12 in between the existing ones for "The Lamb".
The full new Mr Knight doubleneck proved to be unreliable, so Mike moved to the Shergolds from the "Wind & Wuthering" tour onwards.

Mike kept on using the Micro Frets Baritone in some albums, like on "And There were Three" because of its very strong sound.

Mike then used a Steinberger double neck for the "Mama" tour and the latest doubleneck, made of a Gibson 12 string and a Yamaha bass built by a luthier in England.

In terms of acoustics for early Genesis, he used the 12's by EKO, Ovations and some others. I think they did not tend to last that much while used in tour, so he used several.

Steve started used the Hi-Fi on "The Lamb" tour, not in the "Selling". He used an H&H amplifier with a Hiwatt.
Guitarwise, he used a Gibson Les Paul Deluxe for "Selling" and "The Lamb". The Gold top came later.

All the best,

Gustavo.

Quote GQ:

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Steve started used the Hi-Fi on "The Lamb" tour, not in the "Selling". He used an H&H amplifier with a Hiwatt.
Guitarwise, he used a Gibson Les Paul Deluxe for "Selling" and "The Lamb". The Gold top came later.

All the best,

Gustavo.

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Amazing information there Gustavo, thanks! One little question - if Steve wasn't using the Hi-Fli on Selling England, what is the guitar synth effect on the octave jumping section of the solo on Moonlit Knight? I've re-created it using a GT10 guitar synth setting, but I'm interested to know what was on the original recording!

Nigel

Steve had an massive pedal board made for him by Pete Cornish who built all his pedals into it, one of which was a Colorsound Octave Splitter. I imagine it's that.

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Website / Music Lab Machines / Blog

What a great thread. Going in the bookmarks list straight away!

Completely off-topic: did anybody witness Clarkson and May fancifully reminiscing about this new car on Sunday?

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Composer;
www.ogonline.org

Well, given that this thread is back up and running...

Here's something that's puzzled me for ages!

In 'Cinema Show', during the synth solo there's a rising triad arpeggio section near the end that spans more than the width of the keyboard of the Pro-Soloist. At first I thought it was maybe just a studio splice, but Tony plays it live too (and I have many bootlegs that prove it). I can't see how he could be using the octave switch, because it's way too quick to catch.

Anyone know how it's done?

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An Eagle for an Emperor, A Kestrel for a Knave.

Quote The Elf:

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Well, given that this thread is back up and running...

Here's something that's puzzled me for ages!

Anyone know how it's done?

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It's the magic of prog.

It's amazing; I remember learning Genesis keyboard parts on my Bontempi wind organ (try playing the solos on that!) and singing the whole of Selling England on my paper round, but you're still playing Genesis songs!

Well done that man! I've been remastering/editing tracks from my '80s prog band and I can't even remember how I played what I played!

I recently gave a copy of the Lamb to a 20 year old friend who is now obsessed by Genesis - there's hope yet.

I hope you all have read Jonathan Coe's The Rotter's Club ?

Perfectly captures that age for all you grammar school poshies.

Regards

Stephen

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New Henry Fool album (Featuring Phil Manzenera and Jarrod Gosling) out now. https://www.burningshed.com/store/henryfool/

Quote The Elf:

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Well, given that this thread is back up and running...

Here's something that's puzzled me for ages!

In 'Cinema Show', during the synth solo there's a rising triad arpeggio section near the end that spans more than the width of the keyboard of the Pro-Soloist. At first I thought it was maybe just a studio splice, but Tony plays it live too (and I have many bootlegs that prove it). I can't see how he could be using the octave switch, because it's way too quick to catch.

Anyone know how it's done?

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I you listen to that whole solo, it sounds like Banks is going through the whole range of presets on the Pro-Soloist.
The fact that he could recreate it live was testiment to how well he knew the instrument.

I was too young to see Genesis in the 70's, but I have seen and worked alongside the Canaidan tribute band The Musical Box when they've come to the UK. I've stood at the side of the stage and watched them play Cinema Show in a soundcheck.
The switches and selectors on the Pro-Soloist are 'played' almost like they were keys, it was that fast.

As to how it could be done live...
Practice.

Even then, if you've heard some of the bootlegs from the time, even Banks didn't get things note perfect every night. I don't recall him missing a patch change though...

Stu.