This is just a question of personal curiosity, fortunately I don't have to do this. We went to an orchestral concert last night, and I realised once again that I have never ever heard a recording or a broadcast of a full orchestra that caught the brash way that the brass instruments cut through the full sound of the orchestra. Strings sound fine, woodwinds yes, piano great, but brass? Nah! It all sounds smooth and well-behaved, always.

Can anybody tell me why that is?

Chris

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Do you listen on a system capable of reproducing the full power of the brass section ?

I'm not really sure- and I thought in classical recording they generally weren't too keen on too much compression- but it may well be that the dynamic range of a full brass section is just too much even for the CD format, so that some compression has to be used, just to make sure that there's some balance between quiet sections and really loud ones.

I had a conversation recently with one classical lover complained that she's always having to turn the volume knob up and down anyway, when listening to classical records- because there's generally a lot less overall compression than today's "loudness maximised" pop recordings- so I guess some compromise has to be made- and it's the brass that's going to be controlled !

--------------------
http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

I don't think it has anything to do with compression, but everything to do with spectral content.

Most brass instruments generate a lot of powerful high order harmonics which are often heavily curtailed by most recording formats. Close miking also misses out on the way those harmonics interact and combine to produce the full sound.

I have been fortunate to have heard recordings of orchestral and sectional brass that get very, very close to the power and spectacular spectral content of the real thing -- but they are few and far between, and require extraordinary recording equipment and skill.

hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Chris Edwards:

---

Do you listen on a system capable of reproducing the full power of the brass section ?

---

I won't bore you with details, but in a word, yes.

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

I don't think it has anything to do with compression, but everything to do with spectral content.

---

I thought it was something like that. It would account for even Radio 3 FM broadcasts, which I've always taken as the gold standard of sound (certainly way better than 16 bit CD) having the same characteristic.

Thanks,

Chris

Chris

Edited by ConcertinaChap (09/03/08 02:04 PM)

what recordings do you recommend?

A friend of mine who works with James Murphy (recording engineer) told me that when Hans Zimmer records the orchestra it is often multi tracked - as brass, strings, etc.

--------------------
www.symphonicmetalband.com

Quote ConcertinaChap:

---

Quote Chris Edwards:

---

Do you listen on a system capable of reproducing the full power of the brass section ?

---

I won't bore you with details, but in a word, yes.

---

Good news!

Quote:

---

I thought it was something like that. It would account for even Radio 3 FM broadcasts, which I've always taken as the gold standard of sound (certainly way better than 16 bit CD)

---

Hmmm - I'd be surprised if FM radio could equal a properly-produced 16bit CD either in dynamics or frequency response.

Quote ConcertinaChap:

---

It would account for even Radio 3 FM broadcasts, which I've always taken as the gold standard of sound (certainly way better than 16 bit CD) having the same characteristic.

---

Er... you might want to rethink that, on a technological level, at least.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote yvp:

---

A friend of mine who works with James Murphy (recording engineer) told me that when Hans Zimmer records the orchestra it is often multi tracked - as brass, strings, etc.

---

This is the fashionable approach to film music, and affords the maximum flexibility when it comes to creating the final sound. Film scoring is about creating a sound, rather than capturing the sound wich is what traditional classical performance and recording is about.

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote Chris Edwards:

---

Hmmm - I'd be surprised if FM radio could equal a properly-produced 16bit CD either in dynamics or frequency response.

---

It can't. Not even close!

Hugh

--------------------
Technical Editor, Sound On Sound

Quote ConcertinaChap:

---

I won't bore you with details, but in a word, yes.

---

Go on, tell us - I'd like to be bored with the details of that one

Quote ConcertinaChap:

---

I thought it was something like that. It would account for even Radio 3 FM broadcasts, which I've always taken as the gold standard of sound (certainly way better than 16 bit CD) having the same characteristic.

---

It's interesting the number of people who still hold Radio 3 in the same esteem. Despite it having a bandwidth extending only from 30Hz to 15kHz and with a dynamic range that's limited both by manual compression - aka intelligent fader riding by someone who knows what they're doing - and, more recently, slightly more 'ordinary' methods like multi band compression.

For that matter, given that most of it's output is sourced from ..er... 16 bit CD, it makes one wonder how it manages to sound better than the original


I'm not saying it's wrong to hold R3 in high regard (and I do), just that it's interesting the compromises that people will put up with in different circumstances and just what one can 'get away with' technically when all the right elements come together.

Quote ConcertinaChap:

---

Quote Chris Edwards:

---

Do you listen on a system capable of reproducing the full power of the brass section ?

---

I won't bore you with details, but in a word, yes

---

No offence, but I really doubt that......

Unless you happen to listen on something truly daft... like a 50KW high quality full range PA (figure off the top of head not accurately calculated)

in a room the size of, Oh, I don't know, but how about an orchestral auditorium?

seriously, the combined acoustic energy output of a serious "full sized" (that's a bit of string by the way.... the reality being rather variable... ) Orchestra is phenomenal, and the dynamic range terrifying.

i've NEVER seen any practical system for HOME listening that can even remotely approach it in direct real terms.... (mind you there are some very mad people out there running multi-KW systems in their home theatres and stuff i suppose... )



you can approach a numerical facsimile, to some extent, by dividing down the room physical volume to get the required input to a smaller space, but then you get in to the realms of small space acoustics Vs Large space... room compression, thermal adjustment, and all sorts of other factors...

the basic result being, you're never going to listen at home , and get precisely the same auditory experience as you did in the venue.

and besides, most of the time a certain amount of polishing is done...., for example, by choosing mic positions that sound "nice" and don't necessarily reflect what someone else is hearing in another part of the venue....

(and a helluva a lot more in some cases..... )

add all that to the Spectral content and psycho-acoustic experience alluded to by Hugh, (and for example, factor in the ability to "perceive , but not consciously hear " things that happen up past 20K, which are un-reproducible in the majority of delivery formats... ) and you approach the reason for your "disappointment"





Damn 0VU got in there while i was composing this politely worded and politically acceptable contribution

--------------------
if you don't know who i am, i aint gonna tell you.

Edited by Max! (09/03/08 03:35 PM)

Quote Max!:

---

the basic result being, you're never going to listen at home , and get precisely the same auditory experience as you did in the venue.

---

Despite any amount of bol***s in the pages of "audiophile" hi-fi mags, Russ Andrews etc...

--------------------
Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Hugh Robjohns:

---

This is the fashionable approach to film music, and affords the maximum flexibility when it comes to creating the final sound. Film scoring is about creating a sound, rather than capturing the sound which is what traditional classical performance and recording is about.

---

And to add to Hugh's wise words, having spent a lot of time recording and mixing recordings of live concert performances of film music, there's a strong tendency for the stuff to be all but impossible satisfactorily to record using a 'conventional' ambient classical technique. So much so, that on some mixed straight classical/film music shows I end up with almost two separate sets of mics - or more often one set for the classical and a whole load of stuff to supplement it for the film stuff.

Older film music works fine but that was written in the days when classical composers wrote film music and the specialist composers followed conventional orchestration and composition techniques that allowed the performers to balance the music acoustically.

As we move into more recent work where multi micing and multitracking becomes more common, the acoustic balances become more tenuous as orchestration starts to rely on studio tricks to create the sound and audiences start to expect the more hyper-real/super detailed/extra dynamic fiction that's presented as an orchestra.

Get into the most up to date stuff and you have music that simply doesn't work acoustically because it's not written to be performed conventionally, the orchestrations are implausible and the audience expectations so specialised/coloured/tailored that a 'normal' classical recording simply doesn't deliver the excitement that they're expecting. And that's the least of the problems as frequently an acoustic perfomance completely loses entire textures/melodies/solo passages/ etc. because, for example, the solo recorder/oboe/flute/bass clarinet/acoustic guitar/choir can't quite cut through the balance to float the main theme ethereally over the top of the full brass and percussion sections going flat out over massive divisi string lines!

Another annoying trick on film music is recording the choir/solos as overdubs against the finished orchestra tracks leaving a situation where it's all but impossible to record conventionally without a highly controlled studio environment. It becomes impossible to push the choir/solo mics up to get them as loud and full as on the OST recording because of spill in the mics from brass/percussion etc. As you bump the choir to get them over the brass/percussion, the flippin' brass and percussion get louder too! And there's only so much separation you can get between the two when everyone is packed onto a stage with the noisy stuff 2ft in front of the choir and 1ft behind the woodwind! So it all turns into a very finely balanced juggling act where the engineer is as much responsible for the finished balance as the orchestra/conductor/composer and works just as hard to make it happen.


Much as I like a lot of modern film music, it simply isn't real and that makes it quite interesting to record live. And great fun

Quote Max!:

---

Quote ConcertinaChap:

---

Quote Chris Edwards:

---

Do you listen on a system capable of reproducing the full power of the brass section ?

---

I won't bore you with details, but in a word, yes

---

No offence, but I really doubt that......

---

OK, I was answering the question, assuming that the questioner wanted to know whether I had a decent hi-fi system. In the sense that you mean, i.e. something so wizzy that only Bill Gates (or whats'is name, Warren Buffet) can afford it, then, of course, no. But then, there's little point in answering rhetorical questions...

Quote Max!:

---

the basic result being, you're never going to listen at home , and get precisely the same auditory experience as you did in the venue.

---

Well, yes. But that wasn't the question I asked. It was why does brass fall so far short of other instruments in the orchestra when being either broadcast or recorded. And I think that question stands even if you're listening on a '60s 6-transistor tranny!

Quote Max!:

---

(and for example, factor in the ability to "perceive , but not consciously hear " things that happen up past 20K, which are un-reproducible in the majority of delivery formats... )

---

Fair point. Thank you.

Chris

PS somebody said something about a lot of R3 content being 16 bit CD. Again, my reaction has to be: well, yes ... Oh, well, everybody has one grumpy day in them.

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

I record a lot of orchestral stuff too, but not live. I do the studio side of it only. To be honest, I MUCH prefer the sound of the orchestra in the studio - that big brass brashness you like is one of the things i DONT like about live orchestra in some venues - not all mind.

My heaven, which i get to experience pretty much every month for four or five days, is sitting in Abbey Road 1 listening to the in house Nautali (ho ho ho) reproducing what's going on in the room. Awesome - and the sound of the movies!

Another reason will be that, in my experience, a really decent hi-fi will make everything sound "nice", hence why strings and woodwind sound closer to the original than brass, as they are, to a certain extent, smoother sounding instruments (I know that's not the case all the time being a violin player myself! But it's generally true!). hi-fi systems are generally designed to flatter/colour the sound.

--------------------
www.exaviormusic.com
www.manninmusic.com Music Teacher, Isle of Man

Quote Chris Edwards:

---

Quote ConcertinaChap:

---

I thought it was something like that. It would account for even Radio 3 FM broadcasts, which I've always taken as the gold standard of sound (certainly way better than 16 bit CD)

---

Hmmm - I'd be surprised if FM radio could equal a properly-produced 16bit CD either in dynamics or frequency response.

---

It's amazing what effect a posh radio presenter can have on some people's perception of the music being played.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke

My dear old chap, have you heard the accents on Radio 3 recently? Simply depressing to hear our good English tongue so mangled! And as for Verity Sharp! Well!!!

OK, removing tongue from cheek, I have the answer to my question. Brass instruments lose more in the higher frequencies than other orchestral instruments during the recording process. Whether you regard that as a good thing or not is, of course, a matter of taste.

Thank you all.

Chris

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio

Quote ConcertinaChap:

---

My dear old chap, have you heard the accents on Radio 3 recently? Simply depressing to hear our good English tongue so mangled! And as for Verity Sharp! Well!!!

---

I have to admit that I haven't listened to R3 for quite a while. I've never been one for music radio anyway, much preferring to listen to news, comment and comedy, i.e. R4 and 5Live. Plenty of posh accents on the former.

Verity Sharp's okay though. I like her.

--------------------
Steve Cooke
http://soundcloud.com/stevecooke

So do I. Late Junction's the best program on radio by a long way.

Chris

--------------------
Put the fun back into dysfunctional.
Mr Punch's Studio