My respect level has hit rock bottom with this geezer!!! Here are some quotes from a recent SOS interview with Demacio 'Demo' Castellon, the git!!!

"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

"Of course it can cut the dynamics on some records, and you definitely get fatigue listening to records that loud for a long time. But it's what people want to hear."



Cheers,
Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

What an arse!

When i first read this the word I used was much stronger...

but even if he started it...why did everybody follow??!!

...still...

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11011110110010101111 - 110000001111111111101110 - 101110101101
Hexadecimal binary coding anyone?

Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...

Quote Korff:

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Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...

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As though splicing tape in the 60's wasn't?

I'm not saying it wasn't!

Just read the box-out and you'll see what I object to.

I'm simply making the point that what some consider to be 'cheating' others consider to be 'useful'.

Quote Parker Fly:

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what some consider to be 'cheating' others consider to be 'useful'.

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Yep for autotune and splicing. Good stuff has been done with both.

But I wouldn't put loudness-maximizing nonsense in the same category.

Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

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I have to say that when I read that, I thought to myself, what a tosser!

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

And I thought it was Charles Dye...

Quote Steve Hill:

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Quote Pete (Conz) Connelly:

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"The mastering wars? Haha! Tim and I are partly to blame for that! We made some records that were clearly very loud and this became a bit of a trend-setter"

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I have to say that when I read that, I thought to myself, what a tosser!

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Yep, it was at this point I couldn't be ar$ed to read any more! It really wound me up!!!

Although I like the track, I don't think the mix / production to "4 minutes" is that good. I'm confident I could achieve better results in my less spectacular and humble studio.

Cheers,
Peter

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Composer, Producer, Sound Designer
www.universal-sound-design.com

Maybe we all need to shout a bit louder about the loudness wars to get our point heard...

lol

or should that be "chuckles quietly" , for more dynamic range?

I just read the article. I don't agree with the sound, but these folks are clearly mixing for a certain market niche. As he correctly points out, not all music belongs in this style of bit shredding loudness. Why is there even a war anymore? It's about as loud as it can get isn't it? Just worry about making something good. Has anything suffered because it is NOT mixed to maximum warp? A good song NOT become a hit because it's too quiet? I am curious.
People need to get some perspective I think... probably starting with the "record company" folks who allegedly fuel the "war" part of the equation.

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David

Sorry - but while I hate the loudness wars, you have to think about whether hip hop and the kinds of new RnB these guys are doing sounds better really loud or with lots of dynamics - this music is artificially created in the first place, so why do you think dynamics is needed?

But yes, if you ultra-compressed John Martyn's Solid Air or any Pink Floyd record I would be really bleedin' annoyed!

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www.youtube.com/leonardngmusic

I'm all for compressing hip-hop to the max. That way, when you turn it down to an inaudible level, it stays turned down and doesn't jump up and bite you.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

my first post on the forum

i also noticed that the guy described timbaland as the mozart of our times or something.

hes been very successful but i can think of other albums etc produced in recent years that to me, are far more unique and absorbing and still commercially popular.

im not rally a hip hop/r n b fan but to me - his stuff all sounds kinda the same to alot of other urban tracks.

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www.bondedeblog.blogspot.com
on mp3unsigned.com

every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers. this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to wanted to appear 'hip' and starting maxing the L1, but don't blame r&b, don't blame hip hop, don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it

That's a very "thoughtful" contribution.

Why don't you just tell everyone in the world who fails to share your perfectly infallible view of the world to f*** off while you're here and go for broke?

Check the forum rules on offensive comments.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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every time i log in to this forum i see the same old tired reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers. this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad! i know you don't like it that the style became highly influential and even the dinosaur rock you listen to wanted to appear 'hip' and starting maxing the L1, but don't blame r&b, don't blame hip hop, don't blame timbaland/demo/kanye or whoever and stop moaning on here - just go and make music the way YOU want it

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Its not about moaning, its about expressing opinions and keeping an open mind. Why should we all conform to the methods used by people such as timaland/kanye ect? The grandad comment is a little odd! I'm a 27 year old male with a passion for music of all types ranging from classical to metal, hard rock, girly pop and even the odd bit of timbaland!!!

Got to admit I laughed about the Mozart comment in that interview. Putting together a 4 min pop song on a sequencer is not quite in the same league as writing a symphony with nothing but an old keyboard instrument and some manuscript!

I can't help wondering if all that expensive outboard gear is really needed. These highly paid mix guys claim it is but I have a sneaky feeling most people would struggle to tell the difference between the song mixed using high end outboard or a liquid mix/UAD in the box system! Especially when its all converted down to AAC and played back via the good old ipod!

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www.bradleysteenkamp.com

Quote Steve Hill:

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That's a very "thoughtful" contribution.

Why don't you just tell everyone in the world who fails to share your perfectly infallible view of the world to f*** off while you're here and go for broke?

Check the forum rules on offensive comments.

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it was indeed indisputably thoughtful, and was in no way offensive - grizzled knopfler wannabes have dealt with much worse in their time i'm sure

Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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reactionary rants from decrepit mike oldfield worshippers ... just go and make music the way YOU want it

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LMAO -- hah hah mike oldfield. Nasti!

I agree with your final conclusion... making music is what its about... or recordings of music in this context; "Sound on Sound"

But... it is a discussion... no harm in that. You have to know if you read a thread about "Loudness Wars", "Mac Vs PC", "Reaper Vs the world", "Analog Vs Digital", "ITB Vs a mixing desk" etc etc... it's going to be a mud fest to a certain degree. Why else would you look?

But I think Gelled_Fringe has a valid point; it's modern music and it's loud. You have to p**s off the previous generation somehow or you are not trying hard enough... Elvis and the Beatles etc were annoying travesties, an affront to real music.. blah blah blah.

The Mozart bit was a bit much... not a real comparison there if ya ask me!

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David

Quote Bradley:

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Its not about moaning, its about expressing opinions and keeping an open mind.

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That's the bit I find most at odds with the general opinion on these forums- where's the open mind with regards to loudness? Even the thread title reads like a Loudness War Neighbourhood Watch manifesto. 'Pointing the Finger at...' Has anyone considered that people might actually like loud records?

Edited by adam miller (18/07/08 02:27 AM)

Quote Korff:

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Just wait till you get to the 'Is Autotune Cheating?' box...

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Is EQ? Reverb? There's nothing honest about records and there rarely has been.

Quote:

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you have to think about whether hip hop and the kinds of new RnB these guys are doing sounds better really loud or with lots of dynamics - this music is artificially created in the first place, so why do you think dynamics is needed?

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I am really wondering how you got from A to B here. Why should electronic music lack dynamics?

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gentle robot - chapel hill rock band

The more I think about it, the more the loudness war doesn't bother me. He is right, a lot of music and the simple age we are in kind of requires maxed masters. Accept it already.

Quote adam miller:

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Has anyone considered that people might actually like loud records?

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The Who were/are loud. Led Zeppelin were/are loud. Black Sabbath were/are loud. Jimi Hendrix was loud. I've seen all these guys live.

Modern music is not "loud". It is compressed so that the volume never changes. With no dynamic range you can have no "loudness" because you have no dynamic range, no point of reference, and no opportunity to create dramatic interest with credcendi, diminuendi, or sudden dynamic changes from say ppp to fff.

You might as well start with a thousand years of musical history and say hey, let's just do it all without using the black notes on the keyboard, that would be clever.

Club music is "loud" because it's shoved through big speakers. It is not loud in any recognisable musical sense.

In that sense, it is of course patently absurd to call it "loudness wars".

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Quote Steve Hill:

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Modern music is not "loud". It is compressed so that the volume never changes. With no dynamic range you can have no "loudness" because you have no dynamic range, no point of reference, and no opportunity to create dramatic interest with credcendi, diminuendi, or sudden dynamic changes from say ppp to fff.

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Ok... Have you considered that people might actually like 'dynamically restricted' records? Or that records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?

I dislike inappropriately smashed records too- but 'loudness' has a place.

Quote adam miller:

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Ok... Have you considered that people might actually like 'dynamically restricted' records? Or that records with little dynamic range are actually more appropriate for the short attention span-type listening that typifies many (most?) people's music consumption?

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if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.

personally, i can't think of any instances where full on loudness is appropriate for more than three or four minutes at a time. and i'm into metal!

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hourglass | random thoughts | doubledotdash!? collective

Quote onesecondglance:

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if you could provide some kind of proof that this is actually the case, i'd be happy to believe it. fact is, the voices of the people complaining about the loudness wars are... well, louder than those who say there's not a problem.

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I dont like over compressed records, but your argument isnt true. The voice complaining about it is tiny. Most people dont care.

I'd say most people don't understand. They find some music physically tiring to listen to but don't understand why. That's not the same as not caring.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

I dunno.

music isnt entertainment for a lot of people, its just something going on while theyre doing something else, or something to dance to etc. I dont know many people who see it as something to treasure.

I reckon 70% of people wouldnt even know what you meant if you asked them if they found music 'tiring'.

Some girls I know said they didnt buy any music because streaming from youtube was 'just as good'. Which to them it is. They dont care about it as long as its instantly accessable. Thats FAR more important to a lot of people than the quality these days.

Quote snipsnip:

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I dunno.

music isnt entertainment for a lot of people, its just something going on while theyre doing something else, or something to dance to etc. I dont know many people who see it as something to treasure.

I reckon 70% of people wouldnt even know what you meant if you asked them if they found music 'tiring'.

Some girls I know said they didnt buy any music because streaming from youtube was 'just as good'. Which to them it is. They dont care about it as long as its instantly accessable. Thats FAR more important to a lot of people than the quality these days.

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This is the most depressing thing I've read in such a long time, I don't know where to begin...

Somebody please shoot their mouth off so they can lock the thread!!!

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Anto mo Ninja, Watashi mo Ninja

its just a state of fact. We dont need to turn this into another dull thread on the virtues of mp3's (or lack of), but I do stand by the point that a lot of people wont 'care' about music being compressed too much.

Im 24 and Im talking about people my age.

the generation below will presumably care even less as they have even less to compare it to?

Personally I think it's A+R and record companies that want loud records so that they jump out at you when they're on the radio. I think consumers are mostly indifferent.

Quote Steve Hill:

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The Who were/are loud. Led Zeppelin were/are loud. Black Sabbath were/are loud. Jimi Hendrix was loud. I've seen all these guys live.

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Indeed they were- and when I introduced my late teenage nephew to Led Zep's music (he'd been listening to a lot of later rock music but never heard them) his first comment (after sitting there in shock for a few moments) was

" [ ****** ] hell- the loud bits are really loud, aren't they ? Why don't modern bands sound like this ? It's AMAZING !"

So not all the younger generation are after heavily compressed music- and a lot of them have never really heard anything else, poor little things. And that's a shame...

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http://anotherfineday.bandcamp.com/ http://anotherfineday.co.uk http://apollomusic.co.uk

Quote Steve Hill:

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I'm all for compressing hip-hop to the max. That way, when you turn it down to an inaudible level, it stays turned down and doesn't jump up and bite you.

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Quote Gelled_Fringe:

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this is MODERN MUSIC and it is MADE FOR CLUBS grandad!

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You'd be surprised, most here don't care what spotty teenagers spend their pocket money on. At any rate, listening to over-compressed music is probably the least of their problems, compared with sensory numbness, social indifference and political apathy.

Quote snipsnip:

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I dunno.

music isnt entertainment for a lot of people, its just something going on while theyre doing something else, or something to dance to etc. I dont know many people who see it as something to treasure.

I reckon 70% of people wouldnt even know what you meant if you asked them if they found music 'tiring'.

Some girls I know said they didnt buy any music because streaming from youtube was 'just as good'. Which to them it is. They dont care about it as long as its instantly accessable. Thats FAR more important to a lot of people than the quality these days.

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Sadly, if this is the case then there is no need to have a technical side for the audio industry.

Run it all through a comp/limiter and sod the dynamics.

The technology side of our industry strives to record and deliver music in a manner that is not just technically accurate but is conducive to the listener and provides interest and longevity.

Anything that is creative and regarded as art has a solid and technical foundation as it's basis. It then transgresses from there into an a piece of 'art'. Without the technical aspect of this the final product would be both inaccurate and aesthetically displeasing.

All the grand artists were extremely proficient at the technical side of their craft and without things like form, perception etc the piece of art would not induce any emotion or thought and would bore the viewer, much like music that is narrow banded and offers no dynamic range.

The square wave compression serves absolutely no positive purpose in our industry and should be taught as both bad practice and poor technical understanding.

What is the point of using good musicians who have excellent and emotive playing skills and capturing those emotions both accurately and dynamically to then have it mauled to death?

Even with people using hip hop or dance as a premise for this form of compression and negating the use of professional musicians need to come up with a new excuse.

Some of today's hip hop uses some excellent musicians and even where it's simply been plug n' play compositions we are still afforded singers with excellent voices and delivery.

Why destroy that with stupid thinking?

Turning the volume up without trying the exceed the ceiling has worked for years.

Square wave compression is not about loudness and has no place in our industry.

Even the arguments for mp3, limited bandwidth streaming etc are weak. A piece of music that has been produced well with emphasis on maintaining the rich tapestry of dynamics will translate equally well across any mediums in any format.
Even with the limitations that exist today the music will still shine through and keep the listener interested.

If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.

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Samplecraze
Stretch That Note

It's like a snowball effect, if you want a chart topping hit in the current climate it has to sound as loud as the track it replaces. I got handed a demo the other day and it read (hand written!) on the sleeve please turn up and listen to this demo loud, it sounds better!


I dunno what point im trying to make here just thought i'd share!

Quote Zukan:

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Quote snipsnip:

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If the youngsters today are fed this garbage and schooled into this type of thinking, well, I dread to think what the next generation of producers will be like.

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Well put.

Someone can play about with crayons and a colouring book, and never understand what it is to stand humble before say some Monet water lilies.

But it's their loss if they choose to define their horizons and aspirations in those terms.

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Dynamite with a laser beam...

Well if your suggesting all music thats technically well produced is equivilent to a masterpiece then i guess your analogy has merit.

otherwise it sounds a little bit like the hyperbole you'd find in the mail....